2006, October 26,
22:00 CBC News: The National Partial Transcript.
THE NATIONAL (CBC-TV) Extract of Peter Mansbridge's Interview with
HH the Aga Khan
PETER MANSBRIDGE [CBC] :
- The Aga Khan. A feature interview with the spiritual leader of the
world's 20 million Ismaili Muslims. -
- We'll be back with this: The Aga Khan shares his thoughts on
Canadians and the world's efforts in Afghanistan.
H.H. The AGA KHAN [AK]: I think Canada has been perhaps too humble. -
CBC : That was Prime Minister Harper with Prince Karim Aga Khan yesterday
announcing a new joint project called the joint centre for pluralism. The
Aga Khan is imam to 80,000 Ismaili Muslims in Ottawa, 20 million
worldwide. Earlier today I sat down with the Aga Khan to talk about a
whole range of issues from Canada to Afghanistan. (Interview): Canada's
role in Afghanistan is well known, has been since 9/11. So is the Aga Khan
Foundation, which is in there in a big way in development matters. The
question is simple really: With all the help that's been given to
Afghanistan, why is the Taliban resurging, not only back in numbers, but
back in some sense of popularity? Why is that happening?
AK : I think there are a number of reasons, but the one that I would put
forward as the most immediate is the slow process of reconstruction. There
was a lot of hope that once there was regime change and a new government
and a political process that had been completed, et cetera, quality of
life would change, and it hasn't changed quickly enough. It's taken much
more time than I think many of us had hoped to get to isolated communities
in Afghanistan and improve their quality of life. It's an organizational
problem even amongst the donor countries. There have been differences of
opinion. The management of the drug problem has not been a united effort
by any means. So there are a number of things that have slowed up the
process, and there is still acute pockets of poverty in Afghanistan,
people who don't have enough food, people who don't have access to any
education, any health care, and it's clear this sort of frustration causes
bitterness and the search for other solutions.
CBC : Well, is there time to turn it around? Because you get a sense that the
pendulum has swung back considerably in the last year or so. You're
friends with Hamid Karzai. I've talked to him a couple of times in the
last couple of years, the last time just a month ago. There's this growing
sense among the Canadian people as well, frustration, and a belief that
it's a war that cannot be won.
AK : I would beg to differ on that. I think what we're seeing in
Afghanistan, at least from my own network of activities, is an
increasingly visible, two-speed process where in the north and the west
you're beginning to see quantifiable change. In the east and the south,
you're not seeing that. And that two-speed change is going to have to be
managed with great care. But it's not a good reason to give up by any
means.
CBC : Can you do both at the same time? That's the debate in Canada, to run a
military operation, talking specifically about the south, while trying to
introduce aid and development in an area that is not secure.
AK : Very difficult to do. But necessary. I mean, every step counts.
Certainly in area where there's insecurity. I think the availability for
populations to participate in these sort of activities does go down when
quality of life changes, and I believe the same thing with regard to the
drug problem.
CBC: How much of the problem in Afghanistan is a result of the decision on
the part of the Americans and the British to move into Iraq?
AK : Very substantial indeed. The invasion of Iraq was something which has
mobilized what we call the community of Muslims around the world. Every
Muslim that I have ever talked to has felt engaged by this.
CBC : On what level? What do you mean?
AK : Baghdad is one of the great historic cities of the Islamic world. Iraq
is not a new country. It's part of the history of our civilization. It's
been a pluralist country. Great philosophers, great historians, great
scientists. Reverse the question again. What would the Christian world
think if a Muslim army attacked Rome? I think there would be a general
reaction in the Christian world, not just an Italian reaction.
CBC : But it seems that, even in the Muslim world, that invasion has caused
major divisions, the clash inside Islam itself between Shi'a and Sunni.
AK : Well, that was entirely predictable. Entirely predictable. There was
nothing unpredictable. What you were effectively doing is replacing a
Sunni minority government in the country that had a Shi'a demographic
majority. Again, take the case out of its situation. What would happen --
and I'm sorry to come back to this, but it's important -- if a Muslim army
went in to Northern Ireland and replaced one Christian interpretation by
another? Imagine the fallout that that would cause in the Christian world
itself.
CBC : So what happens now? Can Iraq be put back together? And who would be
doing the putting back together?
AK : I think that's a very, very difficult question, and I would not want to
predict the answer because I think that the whole process of change in
Iraq has regional dimensions which have got to be managed. They're not
just national dimensions in Iraq. Those regional dimensions also were
predictable, let's be quite frank about it, and I think they're going to
need to be managed with very, very great care.
CBC : We talked early, just briefly touched on the new global centre for
pluralism which will be established here in Canada through the Aga Khan
Foundation and the people of Canada through the government of Canada. What
is your hope for that? What do you see that doing, accomplishing?
AK : Well, I hope that this centre will learn from the Canadian history of
pluralism the bumpy road that all societies have in dealing with pluralist
problems, the outcomes, and offer much of the world new thoughts, new ways
of dealing with issues, anticipating the problems that can occur because
in recent years, I think we're seeing more and more around the world that
no matter what the nature of the conflict is, ultimately there is a
rejection of pluralism as one of the components, whether it's tribalism,
whether it's conflict amongst ethnic groups, whether it's conflict amongst
religions. The failure to see value in pluralism is a terrible liability.
CBC : Why Canada?
AK : Because I think Canada is a country that has invested in making this
potential liability become an asset, and I think that Canada has been
perhaps too humble in its own appreciation of this global asset. It's a
global asset, and few countries, if any have been as successful as Canada
has. Bumpy though the road is, and, as I said earlier, it's always going
to be an ongoing task.
CBC : For the full interview with the Aga Khan, you can check out
"Mansbridge One on One." It's running on the CBC main network on
Newsworld this weekend at the times listed right there on your screen.
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