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Paar Karo Berra (Par Karo Bera)
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You are well aware that in Chitral, Hunza, Afghanistan, and in Central Asian countries where Ismailis live they have tradition of reciting poetry of Rumi, Hafiz, Nasir, and lately of Allamah Hunzai in JKs for more than 150/200 years, the time when there did not exist any boards, Associations, or ITREB. They do not recite Ginans of subcontinent.
Hopefully now that they are coming into contact with the Imam and his Boards, things will change.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
I will repeat this once more : Since this is the version approved by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, with whatever flaws, additions, subtractions and multiplications and imperfection and with due respects and laundry detergent and mistakes and germs and viruses, this web site will also accept it as is.

To have the capacity to assess a ginan or granth, it takes several decades of studying, learning and understanding, it takes a general knowledge of the ginans and their history and the Farmans made about them.

This whole ginan has already been posted above, there is no need to re-post the whole ginan again and again.


I do not understand why you are so fearful about discussing Ginans. In satsung gatherings Ginans are commonly and openly discussed and debated.
My point is Ginans are tafsirs of Quran as mentioned on this blog, when Quran is discussed openly on ismaili forums why not Ginans.
My other point is that there are some Ginans or Bhajans which are said by unknown Ismails and are included in Ginans which carry wrong information, scholars have to research and seperate these so called Ginans by others. When Ismailis believe Pirs can't make any mistakes then there should be no historical mistakes, I call such Ginans handiwork of others.
I am not talking about myself that I am a Ginan scholar but I am writing about Ginan scholars to come forward and research. Just translating Ginans is not enough.
You keep giving references of MSMS, WHY ARE YOU NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO HIDAYAT OF PRESENT IMAM REGARDING GINAN WORKSHOPS IN 1969 AND ON WARDS?


Last edited by shivaathervedi on Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You are well aware that in Chitral, Hunza, Afghanistan, and in Central Asian countries where Ismailis live they have tradition of reciting poetry of Rumi, Hafiz, Nasir, and lately of Allamah Hunzai in JKs for more than 150/200 years, the time when there did not exist any boards, Associations, or ITREB. They do not recite Ginans of subcontinent.
Hopefully now that they are coming into contact with the Imam and his Boards, things will change.


But still it will be hard for them to recite and understand Ginans in Gujrati and Sindhi.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
I will repeat this once more : Since this is the version approved by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, with whatever flaws, additions, subtractions and multiplications and imperfection and with due respects and laundry detergent and mistakes and germs and viruses, this web site will also accept it as is.

To have the capacity to assess a ginan or granth, it takes several decades of studying, learning and understanding, it takes a general knowledge of the ginans and their history and the Farmans made about them.

This whole ginan has already been posted above, there is no need to re-post the whole ginan again and again.


You are not the only Ismaili on planet earth. Be courageous to absorb realities.
I do not understand why you keep freaking with discussion on Ginans. Let me re post my thoughts. Stop deleting and give counter arguments.

I do not understand why you are so fearful about discussing Ginans. In satsung gatherings Ginans are commonly and openly discussed
My point is Ginans are tafsirs of Quran as mentioned on this blog, when Quran is discussed openly on ismaili forums why not Ginans.
My other point is that there are some Ginans or Bhajans which are said by unknown Ismails and are included in Ginans which carry wrong information, scholars have to research and seperate these so called Ginans by others. When Ismailis believe Pirs can't make any mistakes then there should be no historical mistakes, I call such Ginans handiwork of others.
I am not talking about myself that I am a Ginan scholar but I am writing about Ginan scholars to come forward and research. Just translating Ginans is not enough.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

But still it will be hard for them to recite and understand Ginans in Gujrati and Sindhi.
Hopefully good translations will also become available. Just as khojas are understanding Qasidas through translations, others will also understand the Ginans through translations.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

But still it will be hard for them to recite and understand Ginans in Gujrati and Sindhi.
Hopefully good translations will also become available. Just as khojas are understanding Qasidas through translations, others will also understand the Ginans through translations.


Translations are different things and recitation of Ginans by locals is a different story. Main problem is pronunciation. Farsi has 32 alphabets, where as Sindhi has 52, and Gujrati 45 including vowels. You should be aware of old Du'a in Gujrati and Kachhi was introduced in Syria which was with drawn later on because of wrong pronunciation by MSMS.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
You should be aware of old Du'a in Gujrati and Kachhi was introduced in Syria which was with drawn later on because of wrong pronunciation by MSMS.


Last request: Stop misleading people. The Dua was not stop in Syria because of wrong pronunciation, if this was the case it would also be stopped in many countries today.

The Dua in Syria like in the whole world switched to a much shorter Dua which kept most of the Arabic component of the Asal Dua and added few more. The Asal Dua, especially on Gat Paat took half hour and the Imam has taken into account the need to have one Dua for all and the constrains of the modern world. Of course it is also wrong to say the Dua in Kacchi and Gujrati because that Asal Dua had several languages including Farsi and Arabic.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
You should be aware of old Du'a in Gujrati and Kachhi was introduced in Syria which was with drawn later on because of wrong pronunciation by MSMS.


Last request: Stop misleading people. The Dua was not stop in Syria because of wrong pronunciation, if this was the case it would also be stopped in many countries today.

The Dua in Syria like in the whole world switched to a much shorter Dua which kept most of the Arabic component of the Asal Dua and added few more. The Asal Dua, especially on Gat Paat took half hour and the Imam has taken into account the need to have one Dua for all and the constrains of the modern world. Of course it is also wrong to say the Dua in Kacchi and Gujrati because that Asal Dua had several languages including Farsi and Arabic.


I have a booklet in Khojki on old Du'a published in 1950. In 1950 MSMS made changes in Du'a. These were the last changes in old Du'a made by MSMS before advent of new Du'a in 1956. You quoted " Asal Du'a, specially on Gat Paat took half an hour". The question was about regular Du'a recited 3 times daily. The Du'a in 30/40s - late 50s took only 12/13 minutes to complete and not half an hour, where as current Du'a takes 5/6 minutes. In old Du'a there were only few sentences or phrases in Arabic or Persian which were common and understood by mostly every Ismaili.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please name the changes Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah did in the 1950 Khojki publication you have compared to previous publication, send a copy of comparative pages from both by email and I will post the image below your comment.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Translations are different things and recitation of Ginans by locals is a different story. Main problem is pronunciation. Farsi has 32 alphabets, where as Sindhi has 52, and Gujrati 45 including vowels. You should be aware of old Du'a in Gujrati and Kachhi was introduced in Syria which was with drawn later on because of wrong pronunciation by MSMS.
What are you expecting every Islmaili to be able to communicate in all languages spoken by Ismailis? Don't you think it is absurd and nonsensical?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Please name the changes Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah did in the 1950 Khojki publication you have compared to previous publication, send a copy of comparative pages from both by email and I will post the image below your comment.


I already mailed the copy last year with an important change with Farman of MSMS regarding that change. The change was from ALI SAHIH ALLAH TO ALIYULLAH in 1950.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Translations are different things and recitation of Ginans by locals is a different story. Main problem is pronunciation. Farsi has 32 alphabets, where as Sindhi has 52, and Gujrati 45 including vowels. You should be aware of old Du'a in Gujrati and Kachhi was introduced in Syria which was with drawn later on because of wrong pronunciation by MSMS.
What are you expecting every Islmaili to be able to communicate in all languages spoken by Ismailis? Don't you think it is absurd and nonsensical?


You missed my point. Whether it is a Tajik Ismaili, or an Afghan Ismaili speaking Dari, or a Sindhi Ismaili, or a Gujrati speaking Ismaili, or a Kacchi speaking or an English, French, Spanish or what ever language they must have to recite Du'a in ARABIC WITH PROPER PRONUNCIATION. Same applies to Ginans, Qasidahs, Munqabats, or poetry where or in which areas they are living. Mistakes in pronunciation change the meaning in many instances. Any literary person will admit this.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

I already mailed the copy last year with an important change with Farman of MSMS regarding that change. The change was from ALI SAHIH ALLAH TO ALIYULLAH in 1950.


That is only a cosmetic change. There is no difference in meaning. The debate is not here. Go and read the discussion on Ali Sahi Allah and Ali Allah.

Is there any real change you want to point between 1950 and previous version?

Any change before partition / Pakistan independence? You can point those out in the appropriate section.

If there is anything else on Par Karo Bera, which is the thread here, please post here. Anything else find the appropriate thread. No need to always mix all subjects in whatever thread looks the most active.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:

DELETED.

---------------
Stick to the subject of the thread. If you do not understand this, please stop posting. I have no time cleaning the mess you are leaving all over the place, I have more important things to do here.

ADMIN

Dear Sir, do you believe in Verite, Truth, Satya, if yes, then you should not have deleted that important post. I gave proof from Du'a book by ITREB, Proof from Heritage, and proof from your new application Android. All these three mention meaning of Aliyullah as Ali is from Allah. You can suppress me but not the TRUTH MENTIONED IN THESE SOURCES.


Last edited by shivaathervedi on Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You missed my point. Whether it is a Tajik Ismaili, or an Afghan Ismaili speaking Dari, or a Sindhi Ismaili, or a Gujrati speaking Ismaili, or a Kacchi speaking or an English, French, Spanish or what ever language they must have to recite Du'a in ARABIC WITH PROPER PRONUNCIATION. Same applies to Ginans, Qasidahs, Munqabats, or poetry where or in which areas they are living. Mistakes in pronunciation change the meaning in many instances. Any literary person will admit this.
To recite any form of prayer with proper pronunciation is desirable but it is not practical given the number of languages within our tradition. Hence recitations with less proper pronunciation are acceptable given the intentions are of primary importance.
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