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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Paar Karo Berra (Par Karo Bera)
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Paar Karo Berra (Par Karo Bera)
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again I am repeating my question;
PAAR KARO BERRA GURU JI
Which Pir composed this Ginan? Is this a ginan, or a bhajan, or a song?
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5906

PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The subject should be discussed in the appropriate thread which is "changes in ginans".

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=18&start=195

Further more, Par Karo Bera was in the Khojki edition authorised by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah though Akbar Meherali and many detractors of Ginans are saying it was composed by Master Husseini. When the Khojki books were printed, Master Husseini was not born as much as the critics of Par Karo Bera as a Ginan were also not born.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
The subject should be discussed in the appropriate thread which is "changes in ginans".

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=18&start=195

Further more, Par Karo Bera was in the Khojki edition authorised by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah though Akbar Meherali and many detractors of Ginans are saying it was composed by Master Husseini. When the Khojki books were printed, Master Husseini was not born as much as the critics of Par Karo Bera as a Ginan were also not born.



Need validity of your statement. What is the title of that Khoji Ginan Book, was that 10 Ginans, 15 Ginans, or 25 Ginan book? In which year that was published and by which Association. I shall find at ITREB Library Karachi.
Was " Musto Must Hussaini " Title of a Pir or a Syed.
I am confused with the names A Maherali and K Maherali, are they related?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Need validity of your statement. What is the title of that Khoji Ginan Book


http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/files/MODERN-GINANIC-MORE-DOCUMENT-part1a_0.pdf

page 7 bottom and page 8 of the report gives our Imam SMS's confirmation on the authenticity of the ginans in the Khojki publication of Mukhi Lalji Devraj. Which contains Par Karo Bera ginan. The discussion should continue in the appropriate section

All irrelevant posts to this thread will be deleted soon. Do not deviate from the title and post in appropriate thread.


Author:
Pir Sayyed Imaam Shaah
Source:
bhg3-026 - 600 Ginans published by: Recreation Club Institute, Bombay, Khoja Sindhi Printing Press, 1934
verses:
4

Eji Paar karo beddaa Gur ji, paar karo beddaa,
Pir Aadam Shaah ji paar karo beddaa ... ...

Eji Aai avidat taandhin nabhidhat,
kiyaa dile Gur ji avagunn meraa - paar karo 1

Eji Jal binaa min, kamal binaa madhukar,
lochan neynu Gur ji, umav teraa - paar karo 2

Eji Vinanti karun, Shaah-de Nand-naadho aage,
karo kirpaa Gur ji, biyaa karo feraa - paar karo 3

Eji Pir mast, mast Huseni,
tunhi apaar Gur ji, ant na teraa - paar karo 4
note in the Khojki publication:
Pir Shamsh naa potraa nu
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5906

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are going to move here all discussions past and present on Paar Karo Berraa from various thread in order to unify all posts on this subject.


From shivaathervedi


Posted: 28 Aug 2017 04:21 pm Post subject: Reply with

shivaathervedi wrote:

Need validity of your statement. What is the title of that Khoji Ginan Book


http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/files/MODERN-GINANIC-MORE-DOCUMENT-part1a_0.pdf

page 7 bottom and page 8 of the report gives our Imam SMS's confirmation on the authenticity of the ginans in the Khojki publication of Mukhi Lalji Devraj. Which contains Par Karo Bera ginan. The discussion should continue in the appropriate section

All irrelevant posts to this thread will be deleted soon. Do not deviate from the title and post in appropriate thread.


Author:
Pir Sayyed Imaam Shaah
Source:
bhg3-026 - 600 Ginans published by: Recreation Club Institute, Bombay, Khoja Sindhi Printing Press, 1934
verses:
4

Eji Paar karo beddaa Gur ji, paar karo beddaa,
Pir Aadam Shaah ji paar karo beddaa ... ...

Eji Aai avidat taandhin nabhidhat,
kiyaa dile Gur ji avagunn meraa - paar karo 1

Eji Jal binaa min, kamal binaa madhukar,
lochan neynu Gur ji, umav teraa - paar karo 2

Eji Vinanti karun, Shaah-de Nand-naadho aage,
karo kirpaa Gur ji, biyaa karo feraa - paar karo 3

Eji Pir mast, mast Huseni,
tunhi apaar Gur ji, ant na teraa - paar karo 4
note in the Khojki publication:
Pir Shamsh naa potraa nu


REPLY TO ABOVE POST:

Moving discussion here as required by Admin.

There are many flaws in your above post.
1. Your statement depends upon the article "Observation and comments on our Modern Ginanic Literature" prepared by Ismailia Association for Canada which it self is not perfect and objectionable.
2. In what year Mukhi Lalji Devraj passed away because you have given reference of Recreation Club 1934.
3. The typing mistakes and Arabic/Farsi wording which was not understood at time of Mukhi Deraj was corrected in 1934 editions onward.
4. In the first part there is mention of PIR ADAM SHAH. Was he a real Pir.
5.In your reply, you have mentioned the author of this Ginan/Bhajan "PIR SYED IMAM SHAH".
6. Was Syed Imam Shah Pir?
7. In 1934 editions of Ginans, when scholars at Recreation Club mentioned Syed Imam Shah as a Pir and approved by MSMS it shows Imam accepted
Syed Imam Shah as a Pir?!!
8. Then who was Pir Musto Must?
9. We have got 3 authors of PAAR KARO BERRA....
Pir Syed Imam Shah
Pir Syed Adam shah
Pir Musto Must Hussaini
10. At the end you have mentioned of Pir Shams na pootra nu. Is there any connection of Pir shams with this Ginan. What is the meaning of pootra?
geny.


Last edited by Admin on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5906

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Admin

Imam Shah was Syed however there are Pirs like "Pir Nassir Khusraw" in the generic sense and there are Satadhari Pirs like Pir Sadardin. In the same way there are people who are called Imam in the masjid but there are the truthful Imams of the Ismailis such as Imam Ali and Imam Shah Karim. This is basic and I have already replied this to your posts several times previously.

Secondly, of course one Adam was Pir, as Imam Honeyd (Budhh Avatar) gave him his Piratan and Imam Honeyd gave his Imamat to Adam's son Shish (Honeyd's grandson) .

This ginan may be recognises the fact that Adam was Pir. It does not say necessarily that Pir Adam wrote this ginan though it may have been another Adam who wrote it.

Seyyeed Imam Shah was from the progeny of Imam Hussein so the expression Mast Mast "Huseini" is appropriate. Syed Imama Shah was a "Husseini", this is the name for descendant of Hussein. Shah Karim "al-Husseini" would be another one. It is called "Atak". We also have the expression Kadiwala Sayyeds (Seyyeda Imam Begum was one of them, it was her "Atak").

Also you have to know that some of our Imams, Pirs and Seyyeds are known by more than one name. At the Dargah of Pir Satgur Noor, they call him Seyyed Saadat for example.

Lastly the 1934 edition steams from Lalji Devraj first edition of 100 Ginans 6 bhags which also contained Par Karo Bera .

Any person who contradict our Imam's position in matter of ginans or any other matter, will be met with definite position.

Putra means son, grandson or progeny depending of the context of the paragraph. In this case it means progeny.


Last edited by Admin on Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:58 pm, edited 5 times in total
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19628

PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a nice Ginan to listen to...

Translation of Paar karo bedda
trans_of: Paar karo bedda
Paar karo bedda

Eji Paar karo beddaa Gur ji, paar karo beddaa,
Pir Aadam Shaah ji paar karo beddaa ... ...

O true guide! Please take my boat to the other side. O spiritual master! Take my boat to the other side in this life.

Eji Aai avidat taandhin nabhidhat,
kiyaa dile Gur ji avagunn meraa - paar karo 1

O true master! Such difficulty has befallen that it is very hard to pass each day. O spiritual master! What is my fault that it has taken so long?

Eji Jal binaa min, kamal binaa madhukar,
lochan neynu Gur ji, umav teraa - paar karo 2

O spiritual master! Just as fish (cannot survive) without water and bumblebee ( cannot live) without lotus flower, similarly my eyes are eager to see you.

Eji Vinanti karun, Shaah-de Nand-naadho aage,
karo kirpaa Gur ji, biyaa karo feraa - paar karo 3

O spiritual master! I implore before the Imam the most generous. O Guide please have mercy on me and save me from the cycles of birth and death.

Eji Pir mast, mast Huseni,
tunhi apaar Gur ji, ant na teraa - paar karo 4

O spiritual master! Sayyid Mast (intoxicated) Hussainy implores that O Guide! You are infinite and infathomable.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Audio for Paar Karo Bedaa

http://ismaili.net/heritage/audio/by/title/paar_karo_bedda

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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like Kmaherali shed some light on the ten points I posted on Paar Karo Beera.

Last edited by shivaathervedi on Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:


I don't buy your point that composer of this ginan has addressed Prophet Adam when he is beseeching Adam as Pir for Paar Karo, when composer himself is suppose to be a pir.


Your question has been answered. What you buy or do not buy is irrelevant to the discussion. I can not make the blind see not the deaf listen, I am not Jesus Christ. You are most welcome to be drowned in your own ignorance.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Admin:
I asked you and master of Ginans Kmaherali, who is the author or composer of Ginan Paar Karo....
HANUZ JAWAAB NA DARID.
If you and Master don't know, just admit you don't know and I shall stop bugging you. How's that?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Further on the authorship of Par Karo Bera:

This ginan may be referring to a Seyyed, one of the 18 sons of Pir Hassan Kabirdin, Pir Adaam Shah was brother of Seyyed Jaffer Fakir and of Seyyed Balandar among others . Though he was a Seyyed, he was called "Pir" in the same way in some ginans his brother Seyyed Imam Shah is called Pir or Nassir Khusraw is called "Pir" though not from the "Satadhari Pirs".

This genealogical info can be found in Ginan #42 in Bhag 1 of the 600 ginans published in Khojki in 1934, in a ginan whose first verse is "Eji Mata ho Fatma ne Hassan Husseini". All of the names of the sons of Pir Hasssan Kabirdin are found in this ginan.

I could not see in that ginan the name of the daughter (Bai Buddhai, sister of Pir Adam Shah) whose dargah is in Uchh Sharif, maybe I missed it or it was not there.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4091

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3907
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19628

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
I would like Kmaherali shed some light on the ten points I posted on Paar Karo Beera.
I am in agreement about what the Admin has written and responded. Generally I don't get bogged down by the historical aspects of the Ginan if the content and the raga are beautiful to listen to and of course if it is included in the Lalji Devraj version.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
I would like Kmaherali shed some light on the ten points I posted on Paar Karo Beera.
I am in agreement about what the Admin has written and responded. Generally I don't get bogged down by the historical aspects of the Ginan if the content and the raga are beautiful to listen to and of course if it is included in the Lalji Devraj version.


All of sudden you woke up and replied after one year.
In between you and Admin the formula is; MON TURA HAJI BIGOYEM, YU MARA HAJI BIGO.
You are a trained scholar, how come you are running away from historical back ground of Ginans as poetry.
Some where I read, Lalji devraj destroyed the original manuscripts after publishing what ever Ginans were available at that time. Let me repost my 10 points for members of Heritage to decide.

1. Your statement depends upon the article "Observation and comments on our Modern Ginanic Literature" prepared by Ismailia Association for Canada which it self is not perfect and objectionable.
2. In what year Mukhi Lalji Devraj passed away because you have given reference of Recreation Club 1934.
3. The typing mistakes and Arabic/Farsi wording which was not understood at time of Mukhi Deraj was corrected in 1934 editions onward.
4. In the first part there is mention of PIR ADAM SHAH. Was he a real Pir.
5. In your reply, you have mentioned the author of this Ginan/Bhajan "PIR SYED IMAM SHAH".
6. Was Syed Imam Shah a Pir?
7. In 1934 editions of Ginans, when scholars at Recreation Club mentioned Syed Imam Shah as a Pir and approved by MSMS it shows Imam accepted
Syed Imam Shah as a Pir?!!
8. Then who was Pir Musto Must?
9. We have got 3 authors of PAAR KARO BERRA....
Pir Syed Imam Shah
Pir Syed Adam shah
Pir Musto Must Hussaini
10. At the end you have mentioned of Pir Shams na pootra nu. Is there any connection of Pir shams with this Ginan. What is the meaning of pootra?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Some where I read, Lalji devraj destroyed the original manuscripts after publishing what ever Ginans were available at that time.


According to what Vazir Qurban Sadiwalla told me 3 decades ago, these manuscripts were kept in a locked metal "tejuri" room in Mumbai. Years after the death of Mukhi Lalji Devraj, someone noticed a strong smell coming from there, they opened and saw that the manuscripts were all destroyed by humidity and decay, also many were eaten and nothing was thought worth saving so they were burned at that time. NOT during the time of Lalji Devraj.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

4. In the first part there is mention of PIR ADAM SHAH. Was he a real Pir.
5. In your reply, you have mentioned the author of this Ginan/Bhajan "PIR SYED IMAM SHAH".
6. Was Syed Imam Shah a Pir?
7. In 1934 editions of Ginans, when scholars at Recreation Club mentioned Syed Imam Shah as a Pir and approved by MSMS it shows Imam accepted
Syed Imam Shah as a Pir?!!
8. Then who was Pir Musto Must?
9. We have got 3 authors of PAAR KARO BERRA....
Pir Syed Imam Shah
Pir Syed Adam shah
Pir Musto Must Hussaini
10. At the end you have mentioned of Pir Shams na pootra nu. Is there any connection of Pir shams with this Ginan. What is the meaning of pootra?


Mukhi Lalji Devraj expired in 1930, the 1934 edition was published from the one he prepared

There are no 3 or 4 authors to Ginan Par Karo Bera.

Adam Shah was not a Satadhari Pir, please read the previous posts with some attention so we do not have to repeat the same again and again.

Husseini means from the progeny of Hussein. Pootra means son or progeny and can even be used for a son which is not from your own family or a grand-son.

The ginan does not say Pir Adam Shah wrote this ginan. It is attributed to Seyyed Imam Shah who was also called "Pir" but not Satadhari Pir.

Again please learn to read before posting questions that have been replied multiple times in previous posts. This behaviour is not acceptable on any Forums.

Only people who try to sabotage a Forum will ask again anad again the same questions and pretend they did not know that their questions were replied previously.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Some where I read, Lalji devraj destroyed the original manuscripts after publishing what ever Ginans were available at that time.


According to what Vazir Qurban Sadiwalla told me 3 decades ago, these manuscripts were kept in a locked metal "tejuri" room in Mumbai. Years after the death of Mukhi Lalji Devraj, someone noticed a strong smell coming from there, they opened and saw that the manuscripts were all destroyed by humidity and decay, also many were eaten and nothing was thought worth saving so they were burned at that time. NOT during the time of Lalji Devraj.


Some one noticed a strong smell coming out from there (air tight metal tejori)--------!!?? This is your version. I heard some other story. The bottom line is that the original manuscripts were destroyed leaving Ginan scholars to scratch their heads for ever and depend on narration.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Further on the authorship of Par Karo Bera:

This ginan may be referring to a Seyyed, one of the 18 sons of Pir Hassan Kabirdin, Pir Adaam Shah was brother of Seyyed Jaffer Fakir and of Seyyed Balandar among others . Though he was a Seyyed, he was called "Pir" in the same way in some ginans his brother Seyyed Imam Shah is called Pir or Nassir Khusraw is called "Pir" though not from the "Satadhari Pirs".

This genealogical info can be found in Ginan #42 in Bhag 1 of the 600 ginans published in Khojki in 1934, in a ginan whose first verse is "Eji Mata ho Fatma ne Hassan Husseini". All of the names of the sons of Pir Hasssan Kabirdin are found in this ginan.

I could not see in that ginan the name of the daughter (Bai Buddhai, sister of Pir Adam Shah) whose dargah is in Uchh Sharif, maybe I missed it or it was not there.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4091

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3907



NET - Heritage F.I.E.L.D.

Maataji fatma Hassan Husseni
in General Ginan History 18 children of Pir Kabirdin
Author: Pir Sadardin

Eji Maataa ho Faatmaa ne Hassan Husseni
Bibi Faatmaa ne Hassan Hussein taare
Shaaha jiye dheedhi badaai ji 1

Eji Hassan Hussein jyaare jug maa padhaariyaa
tyaare bahest maanhe hui vadhaai ji 2

Eji Pahelo farman Maataa Fatmaa boliyaa
to din duniyaake vepaari ji 3

Eji Maataa ho Farmaa e ashish didhee
tyaare putr adhar farjand hoshe ji 4

Eji Pir Sadardin karodd bhaar sun aayaa
tyaare anat kun deedhi badaai ji 5

Eji Pahelaa ho Sayyed Kalandar aviyaa
to dujaa Pir oliyaa ji 6

Eji Trijaa ho Pir Sayyed Kabirdin aaaya
to chothaa Pir Imaam Shaah ji 7

Eji Paanch maa Pir Sayyed Alaabadi aaya
to chathaa Pir Farman Shaah ji 8

Eji Saat maa Pir Sayyed Salaamadin aayaa
to aatth maa Pir Rahemtulla ji 9

Eji Nauv maa Pir Jesarbandaa aayaa
to das maa Pir Avali Shaah ji 10

Eji Aghiyaar maa Pir Sayyed Jaffer Fakir aayaa
to baar maa Pir Aadam Shaah ho ji 11

Eji Ter maa Pir Sayyed Balandar aayaa
to choud maa Pir Nuramidin ji 12

Eji Pandar maa Pir Sayyed Bandaa ho aayaa
to sol maa Pir Sayyed Salaahaa ji 13

Eji Satar maa Pir Sayyed taiyaar Gaazi aayaa
to adhaar maa Pir Gaban Shaah ji 14

Eji Pir Hassan Kabirdin ki aulaad kahiye
to Pir Sadardin kahi farmaayaa ji 15

In 7th part of above Ginan, Pir Sadardin mentioned Syed Imam Shah as 4th in line of 18 sons of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Ismaili histories mention Syed Imam Shah as the youngest son of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin. How come grand father was unaware of this fact?? Also Pir Sadardin forgot to mention the only daughter of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin? In Ginan 17 sons of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin are mentioned as Pirs except one and that is Syed Qalander Awliya!!
Pir Sadardin passed away in around year 1380 CE, when Syed Imam Shah was born in the year 1430 CE. This shows the above Ginan was not penned by Pir Sadardin!!!!!!!!!!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Also Pir Sadardin forgot to mention the only daughter of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin?


You lack of logic is mind blowing. And so is your lack of understanding of Indian languages. Adhar (18 sons) are mentioned twice in the ginan and 18 names are given. The daughter is not mentioned so her name is not given. . How are we going to convince you that you don't read properly? Of course there is no way.

How do you know "he forgot to mention"? Did you ask him? Or is this pure speculation?

It could be many reasons, it could be that one verse was missing in the manuscript found, like hundreds were missing in the manuscript of Man Samjani moti of Pir Shams which Mukhi Lalji Devraj found but he still published the remaining 8,000 and some.

Also several dates are circulating for the death of Pir Sadardin, you can not pick and choose what is convenient to you, Hazar Imam has explained this about people who have a blinkered vision and whose reporting of the truth changes according to what they believe but not according to what really happened
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19628

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You are a trained scholar, how come you are running away from historical back ground of Ginans as poetry.
As I said, someone else had answered satisfactorily and there was no need of repetition. These days we listen to Qasidas as well in Jamat Khanas. Hence whether the authorized Pir is the composer or not becomes irrelevant so long as the content is good.

Apart from authorship do you have any problems about the content of the Ginan?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Also Pir Sadardin forgot to mention the only daughter of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin?


You lack of logic is mind blowing. And so is your lack of understanding of Indian languages. Adhar (18 sons) are mentioned twice in the ginan and 18 names are given. The daughter is not mentioned so her name is not given. . How are we going to convince you that you don't read properly? Of course there is no way.

How do you know "he forgot to mention"? Did you ask him? Or is this pure speculation?

It could be many reasons, it could be that one verse was missing in the manuscript found, like hundreds were missing in the manuscript of Man Samjani moti of Pir Shams which Mukhi Lalji Devraj found but he still published the remaining 8,000 and some.

Also several dates are circulating for the death of Pir Sadardin, you can not pick and choose what is convenient to you, Hazar Imam has explained this about people who have a blinkered vision and whose reporting of the truth changes according to what they believe but not according to what really happened


Problem is you have negative thinking about me. Your mind is set against me.
It is you who do not read my posts properly. I wrote, "Pir sadardin mentiond 17 sons as pirs in that Ginan and one Qalander Awliya as syed". Why Pir Sadardin omitted Qalandar Shah as Pir? The question is, Why Pir Sadardin mentioned 17 as Pirs when in fact they were not Pirs. Was that order from Imam of the time? If they were honrary pirs as you keep mentioning and giving example of Nasir Khusraw, keep in mind, many sons of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin started their own religious franchises in sub continent at that time.

It is not the question of missing line, I wander Pir Sadardin mentioned 18 sons and forgot the only daughter, though a woman can be a Pir according to Satpunthi Tariqah.

Regarding dates/years about Pir Sadaerdin, I have taken references from an article posted on Heritage.

According to my understanding the Ginan Hasan Hussaini is not written or said by Pir Sadardin but an addition by some one else.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You are a trained scholar, how come you are running away from historical back ground of Ginans as poetry.
As I said, someone else had answered satisfactorily and there was no need of repetition. These days we listen to Qasidas as well in Jamat Khanas. Hence whether the authorized Pir is the composer or not becomes irrelevant so long as the content is good.

Apart from authorship do you have any problems about the content of the Ginan?


The discussion in this thread is about who is the real author of Paar Karo Bera. As a Heritage scholar you should have investigated and researched, but instead you came out as you wrote," These days we listen to Qasidas --------------as long as the content is good". In JKs Qasidas recited in Persian are not understood by jamaits, so what about content? If content is necessary why not we start Sufiyana kalam of various famous sufis or Qawalis of Master qawals. These Qawalis contain good content.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

It is not the question of missing line, I wander Pir Sadardin mentioned 18 sons and forgot the only daughter,


Who is the author is a question already answered. About "forgot" Bai buddai, it has also been answered.

You should realise that once your question is already answered and you keep pretending no one answers it, and this multiple times, across threads, , then obviously you yourself created a situation where you have been completely discredited and no one is interested pursuing the conversation with you. So please do not cry baby when your repeat posts are deleted as they should be.
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shivaathervedi



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Posts: 354

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

It is not the question of missing line, I wander Pir Sadardin mentioned 18 sons and forgot the only daughter,


Who is the author is a question already answered. About "forgot" Bai buddai, it has also been answered.

You should realise that once your question is already answered and you keep pretending no one answers it, and this multiple times, across threads, , then obviously you yourself created a situation where you have been completely discredited and no one is interested pursuing the conversation with you. So please do not cry baby when your repeat posts are deleted as they should be.


Same attitude, read the following paragraph which you did not addressed.

I wrote, "Pir sadardin mentiond 17 sons as pirs in that Ginan and one Qalander Awliya as syed". Why Pir Sadardin omitted Qalandar Shah as Pir? The question is, Why Pir Sadardin mentioned 17 as Pirs when in fact they were not Pirs. Was that order from Imam of the time? If they were honrary pirs as you keep mentioning and giving example of Nasir Khusraw, keep in mind, many sons of Pir Hasan Kabiruddin started their own religious franchises in sub continent at that time.
Please answer the above paragraph, you can have help from your life line kmaherali.

My other point is, mostly all Ginans mention the name of composer Pir or Syed in last couplet. In 'Paar Karo' Ginan at the end the composer name comes 'Pir Masto Mast', Was Syed Imam Shah Mast o Mast Pir?? Need research and not harsh statement.
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AJD



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad,

I think that shivaathervedi and admin both are right but both are expressing extreme views on the ginan. Both of them are right. Well I think we can have some in between thoughts as well.

Please note the following points of the ginan:

1. This ginan is not a composition of Syed Imam Shah. Firstly, we do not have reliable historical documents to prove whether Syed Imam Shah ever used a pen name in his ginans. Secondly, the dialect, style and tone of the ginan does not sound from the time period of Syed Imam Shah. Thirdly, according to some of the famous ginan reciters and scholars, the melody, raag and meter of this ginan depict a modern composition. No doubt that this is oral information.

2. The ginan is not found in old manuscripts. Admin, do the heritage society has it in manuscripts earlier than 18th century??

3. According to many scholars, this work is not the composition of any Pir. For example, I met a person here in Karachi he literally explains that how this work came into being. The person is from Guwadar and has written a book I think entitled "Gaur-e- Gawadar".

4. The text itself suggests that the work is not a composition of Syed Imam Shah. For example, the general signature remark "Kahe", "Boliya", "Kahaave" "Bhane", "Kahet", "Bhanke" etc is not there. This Indian signature remark is very important and a key part of ginans and other South Asian poetic compositions.

5. Considering it as a ginan just because it is published in Lalji Devraj publication is an extreme stance which is neither reasonable nor reliable for the publications are unedited and contain several mistakes in terms of corrupted text, meters, authorship etc etc. I have several examples. Just see the garbis of Pir Shams and you get an idea.

6. We have different people (reliable ones) who have enough arguments to justify why they do not consider it a genuine work of any Ismaili Pir or Syed.

Scholars and respectable authorities of Ismaili Studies may find things to argue or agree with in the above points.

Thank You!!
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Admin



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as it is in a publication whose 1934 edition was accepted by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, the stand taken by this web site is that we accept its authenticity. We are not seeking perfection, there will always be typos and minor variance or irrelevant mistakes.

Ginans detractors will always have some objections to discredit the ginans. Akbar Mehirnally was one who was saying in the 1980s' that Par Karo was written by Master Husseini and when I told him Master Husseini was not born when the Khojki Book were printed with this ginan, he left the discussion. That was of course before he also left the Ismaili community or was excommunicated whatever the case.

We have one compass and that is what our Imam says. Various theories from "scholars" vary across time and geography according to their knowledge and understanding and most of all their own beliefs which may or may not be compatible with Imam's guidance.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
If content is necessary why not we start Sufiyana kalam of various famous sufis or Qawalis of Master qawals. These Qawalis contain good content.
Of course they have to be authoritized by the Imam or his boards
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
If content is necessary why not we start Sufiyana kalam of various famous sufis or Qawalis of Master qawals. These Qawalis contain good content.
Of course they have to be authoritized by the Imam or his boards


You are well aware that in Chitral, Hunza, Afghanistan, and in Central Asian countries where Ismailis live they have tradition of reciting poetry of Rumi, Hafiz, Nasir, and lately of Allamah Hunzai in JKs for more than 150/200 years, the time when there did not exist any boards, Associations, or ITREB. They do not recite Ginans of subcontinent.


Last edited by shivaathervedi on Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With due respect to Pirs;
In my opinion the following Ginan does not belong to Pir Sadardin, but looks like an addition by an enthusiast Ismaili because there are many flaws in it. Any comment by Ginan researcher.

NET - Heritage F.I.E.L.D.

Maataji fatma Hassan Husseni
in General Ginan History 18 children of Pir Kabirdin
Author: Pir Sadardin

Eji Maataa ho Faatmaa ne Hassan Husseni
Bibi Faatmaa ne Hassan Hussein taare
Shaaha jiye dheedhi badaai ji 1

Eji Hassan Hussein jyaare jug maa padhaariyaa
tyaare bahest maanhe hui vadhaai ji 2

Eji Pahelo farman Maataa Fatmaa boliyaa
to din duniyaake vepaari ji 3

Eji Maataa ho Farmaa e ashish didhee
tyaare putr adhar farjand hoshe ji 4

Eji Pir Sadardin karodd bhaar sun aayaa
tyaare anat kun deedhi badaai ji 5

Eji Pahelaa ho Sayyed Kalandar aviyaa
to dujaa Pir oliyaa ji 6

Eji Trijaa ho Pir Sayyed Kabirdin aaaya
to chothaa Pir Imaam Shaah ji 7

Eji Paanch maa Pir Sayyed Alaabadi aaya
to chathaa Pir Farman Shaah ji 8

Eji Saat maa Pir Sayyed Salaamadin aayaa
to aatth maa Pir Rahemtulla ji 9

Eji Nauv maa Pir Jesarbandaa aayaa
to das maa Pir Avali Shaah ji 10

Eji Aghiyaar maa Pir Sayyed Jaffer Fakir aayaa
to baar maa Pir Aadam Shaah ho ji 11

Eji Ter maa Pir Sayyed Balandar aayaa
to choud maa Pir Nuramidin ji 12

Eji Pandar maa Pir Sayyed Bandaa ho aayaa
to sol maa Pir Sayyed Salaahaa ji 13

Eji Satar maa Pir Sayyed taiyaar Gaazi aayaa
to adhaar maa Pir Gaban Shaah ji 14

Eji Pir Hassan Kabirdin ki aulaad kahiye
to Pir Sadardin kahi farmaayaa ji 15
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Admin



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will repeat this once more : Since this is the version approved by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, with whatever flaws, additions, subtractions and multiplications and imperfection and with due respects and laundry detergent and mistakes and germs and viruses, this web site will also accept it as is.

To have the capacity to assess a ginan or granth, it takes several decades of studying, learning and understanding, it takes a general knowledge of the ginans and their history and the Farmans made about them.

This whole ginan has already been posted above, there is no need to re-post the whole ginan again and again.
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