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Bhuj Nirinjan
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19628

PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Because other sufis believe in essence and form that does not mean we shall give up belieiving in essence of Imam, in the brackets you mentioned (which refers to the essence)
I am in no way implying that we should give up our understanding of the Imam as the Mazhar of the Essence. All I am saying is that this notion is not unique to our tariqah. Other Sufi tariqahs also have the same notion.
swamidada wrote:

Is Imam not a Guide? You have translated,"One Prophet and one Light which is manifested in Guide". Because other sufis believe their Murshid as a guide so do we shun the word Guide for Imam?
Again the notion of the Guide is not restricted to our tariqah, it is universal within Sufi Islam.
swamidada wrote:

At least you admitted that there is word Mowla , means there is mention of Imam as Mowla in Bhuj Nirinjin.
Yes we as Ismailis interpret the Imam to be the Mawla, but other Sufis also have the notion of Mawla - Mowlana Rumi.
swamidada wrote:

Ahmad's philosophy is Risalat continued and not Imamat. What other sufi Tariqas say that is not our concern. As Shia Ismaili we believe Imam is the inheritor of the Prophet as you wrote," The Prophet's inheritor (the Imam of the time).
Actually according to Satpanth Ismaili tradition, the Imam is not the inheritor of the Prophet, he is the station to be attained - nabi muhammad bujo bhai to tame pamo imam. This is the main point which differentiates this granth with other Ismaili ginans.
swamidada wrote:

Please revisit your translation and my reply to you on Ali Samaree(n)....

You have translated 'ALI SAMAREE(N) ALI PAAEIYE(N)' If you remember Ali, you attain Ali (so Ali/Hari is mentioned in this part clearly which goes against your standing on Bhuj Nirinjin).
The question is about Bhuj Nirinjin and not what Alan Faqir or Abidah sang or what is mentioned in Qawalis.
The question is not whether what is stated in Buj Niranjan is wrong but what I am saying is that Ali is accepted by other Sufis as well in a similar manner.

For example in one of the poems, Abida Parveen says:

"There is none with a beneficent look
Like his in the world.
From the depth of your heart
Call Ali..Then see the sorrows flee"


My arguments is not that whatever is said in Buj Niranajan is wrong or does not apply to Ismailism, it is that whatever is said in Buj Niranjan is not specific to Ismailism only - it is universal in Sufism and hence if Pir Sadardeen wrote this work, it was directed to Sufis generally and not specifically to Ismailis only.

This is very much akin to the Memoirs. It was written by MSMS for general audience, not specifically for Ismailis. On the other hand the Farmans are for Ismailis only.
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Mon May 06, 2019 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Because other sufis believe in essence and form that does not mean we shall give up belieiving in essence of Imam, in the brackets you mentioned (which refers to the essence)
I am in no way implying that we should give up our understanding of the Imam as the Mazhar of the Essence. All I am saying is that this notion is not unique to our tariqah. Other Sufi tariqahs also have the same notion.
swamidada wrote:

Is Imam not a Guide? You have translated,"One Prophet and one Light which is manifested in Guide". Because other sufis believe their Murshid as a guide so do we shun the word Guide for Imam?
Again the notion of the Guide is not restricted to our tariqah, it is universal within Sufi Islam.
swamidada wrote:

At least you admitted that there is word Mowla , means there is mention of Imam as Mowla in Bhuj Nirinjin.
Yes we as Ismailis interpret the Imam to be the Mawla, but other Sufis also have the notion of Mawla - Mowlana Rumi.
swamidada wrote:

Ahmad's philosophy is Risalat continued and not Imamat. What other sufi Tariqas say that is not our concern. As Shia Ismaili we believe Imam is the inheritor of the Prophet as you wrote," The Prophet's inheritor (the Imam of the time).
Actually according to Satpanth Ismaili tradition, the Imam is not the inheritor of the Prophet, he is the station to be attained - nabi muhammad bujo bhai to tame pamo imam. This is the main point which differentiates this granth with other Ismaili ginans.
swamidada wrote:

Please revisit your translation and my reply to you on Ali Samaree(n)....

You have translated 'ALI SAMAREE(N) ALI PAAEIYE(N)' If you remember Ali, you attain Ali (so Ali/Hari is mentioned in this part clearly which goes against your standing on Bhuj Nirinjin).
The question is about Bhuj Nirinjin and not what Alan Faqir or Abidah sang or what is mentioned in Qawalis.
The question is not whether what is stated in Buj Niranjan is wrong but what I am saying is that Ali is accepted by other Sufis as well in a similar manner.

For example in one of the poems, Abida Parveen says:

"There is none with a beneficent look
Like his in the world.
From the depth of your heart
Call Ali..Then see the sorrows flee"


My arguments is not that whatever is said in Buj Niranajan is wrong or does not apply to Ismailism, it is that whatever is said in Buj Niranjan is not specific to Ismailism only - it is universal in Sufism and hence if Pir Sadardeen wrote this work, it was directed to Sufis generally and not specifically to Ismailis only.

This is very much akin to the Memoirs. It was written by MSMS for general audience, not specifically for Ismailis. On the other hand the Farmans are for Ismailis only.


In what language Pir Sadardin composed Bhuj Nirinjin? Was that Arabic or Farsi? Obviously it was Gujrati and written for his followers. For example:
ATI ACHRAT KAHU(N) EEK PAHELI
JISS THI HOWEY WAATT SUHELI

Bhuj Nirinjin was not written for particularly other sufi silsilas because mostly Sunni based sufis were against Tariqah of Pir Sadardin and knew not Gujrati language.

It looks like you accept the title Bhuj Nirinjin and composer's name only and discarding the content. You keep insisting 'it was written for other sufi sislsilas'.

Ismaili Tariqah is also a sufi Tariqah as MSMS has mentioned in one of his Farmans. Therefore the words like essence, Mowla, inheritor, true guide should be common. In fact the main sufi Tariqahs accept Mowla Ali their True Guide and Savior. All Shia denominations and Sufis consider Mowla Ali as Mushkil kusha.

Do you accept the first refrain of Bhuj Nirinjin i e :

NIRALA NIRINJIN KAHEI(N)YE
NIRALI KAHEI(N)YE KUCHH BAAT
JEM GU(N)GHEY SAPANA PAHIYA
SAMAJH SAMAJH PACHHTAE

Message is clear:
ALI SAMAREE(N) ALI PAAEIYE(N)..... Do you believe in it. If yes, means Bhuj Nirinjin was written particularly for Pir's followers.

For inheritance you quote:
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI
TOU TAMEY PAAMO IMAM.

The word 'TOU' is conditional and very important, it means 'then', the couplet means:
O brother, recognize Nabi Muhammad THEN you will attain Imam.
When Nabi was Natiq, Imam was Samit.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19628

PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Bhuj Nirinjin was not written for particularly other sufi silsilas because mostly Sunni based sufis were against Tariqah of Pir Sadardin and knew not Gujrati language.

It looks like you accept the title Bhuj Nirinjin and composer's name only and discarding the content. You keep insisting 'it was written for other sufi sislsilas'.
As I said this work is meant for ALL SUFIS and therefore it is applicable for Ismailis being a Sufi tradition. In India there are other Sufi traditions who speak Gujerati/Hindustani/Urdu.
I did NOT say that this work was written for other Sufis.
swamidada wrote:

Ismaili Tariqah is also a sufi Tariqah as MSMS has mentioned in one of his Farmans. Therefore the words like essence, Mowla, inheritor, true guide should be common. In fact the main sufi Tariqahs accept Mowla Ali their True Guide and Savior. All Shia denominations and Sufis consider Mowla Ali as Mushkil kusha.

Do you accept the first refrain of Bhuj Nirinjin i e :.
That is exactly what I said. The concepts mentioned in Buj Niranjan applies to all Sufis and is not restricted to Ismailis only.
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2019 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Bhuj Nirinjin was not written for particularly other sufi silsilas because mostly Sunni based sufis were against Tariqah of Pir Sadardin and knew not Gujrati language.

It looks like you accept the title Bhuj Nirinjin and composer's name only and discarding the content. You keep insisting 'it was written for other sufi sislsilas'.
As I said this work is meant for ALL SUFIS and therefore it is applicable for Ismailis being a Sufi tradition. In India there are other Sufi traditions who speak Gujerati/Hindustani/Urdu.
I did NOT say that this work was written for other Sufis.
swamidada wrote:

Ismaili Tariqah is also a sufi Tariqah as MSMS has mentioned in one of his Farmans. Therefore the words like essence, Mowla, inheritor, true guide should be common. In fact the main sufi Tariqahs accept Mowla Ali their True Guide and Savior. All Shia denominations and Sufis consider Mowla Ali as Mushkil kusha.

Do you accept the first refrain of Bhuj Nirinjin i e :.
That is exactly what I said. The concepts mentioned in Buj Niranjan applies to all Sufis and is not restricted to Ismailis only.



Why I engaged you in discussion, the reason is your following statements in this thread. You wrote;

1.As I have said earlier in this thread, the work does not 'smell' like a Ginan to me. Such a large piece of work fails to mention the Imams before Hazarat Ali, that is a big odd to me.

2. When I said that I did not think that Pir Sadardeen composed the Buj Nirinjan...

3. You have not read the thread. I have given the reasons why I think it is not the work of Pir Sadardeen ....

Historically we can not find any links between Pir Sadardin and other sufi cults spreading Islam in Northern India. At that time Urdu or Hindustani was not developed, the language spoken was Bhurj Bhasha turned Hindi. The sufis engaged in Northern India were not familiar with Gujrati, because we can not find any writings or poetry by them in Gujrati language.

You wrote:
"The concepts mentioned in Buj Niranjan applies to all Sufis and is not restricted to Ismailis only". It means you accept that Ismailis can follow the Hidayat by Pir Sadardin mentioned in Bhuj Nirinjin without restrictions.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19628

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Historically we can not find any links between Pir Sadardin and other sufi cults spreading Islam in Northern India. At that time Urdu or Hindustani was not developed, the language spoken was Bhurj Bhasha turned Hindi. The sufis engaged in Northern India were not familiar with Gujrati, because we can not find any writings or poetry by them in Gujrati language.
See my post on Ali Asani's book on Buj Nirinjan in the previous page of this thread.
swamidada wrote:

It means you accept that Ismailis can follow the Hidayat by Pir Sadardin mentioned in Bhuj Nirinjin without restrictions.
Yes most of the exalted wisdom and guidance is applicable and useful for Ismailis on the quest for the light. However regarding the payment of charity, we Ismailis are supposed to pay only 12.5% and not 50% mentioned in Buj Nirinjan. Also the Dasond is supposed to be submitted to the Imam and not for any other cause.
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

Historically we can not find any links between Pir Sadardin and other sufi cults spreading Islam in Northern India. At that time Urdu or Hindustani was not developed, the language spoken was Bhurj Bhasha turned Hindi. The sufis engaged in Northern India were not familiar with Gujrati, because we can not find any writings or poetry by them in Gujrati language.
See my post on Ali Asani's book on Buj Nirinjan in the previous page of this thread.
swamidada wrote:

It means you accept that Ismailis can follow the Hidayat by Pir Sadardin mentioned in Bhuj Nirinjin without restrictions.
Yes most of the exalted wisdom and guidance is applicable and useful for Ismailis on the quest for the light. However regarding the payment of charity, we Ismailis are supposed to pay only 12.5% and not 50% mentioned in Buj Nirinjan. Also the Dasond is supposed to be submitted to the Imam and not for any other cause.


There are plenty of Arabic and Farsi words used in Ginanic literature. We can find many in Ginans/Grunths penned by Pir Sat Gur Noor, Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin, Syed Imam Shah, then why just to criticize Bhuj Nirinjin!
In my opinion when Mukhi Devraj and team collected Ginans and printed first time they omitted mostly Arabic and Farsi words used in Ginans because they knew not Arabic/Farsi. Therefore They tried to find matching words in vernacular languages and replaced them.

I am quoting 2 couplets from chapter 14 of Bhuj Nirinjin which you criticized.

Part 14:

mahenat kar kar jo kuchh laave
lok kuttu(m)bsu(n) aadh battaave..................................1

Whatever you earn(after toiling hard), half of it should be spent on your family.

aadh naam allaah khilaave
khaadam(tawbaadam) hoee mukhadumee paave..........................2

And the other half, spend in for Allah and with repentent attitude attain granter of repentance.

The above from the Satpanth point of view is not correct, although it may be true from the Sufi perspective. In our Ginanic tradition, the notion of Dasond is very explicit and it is the tenth part (plus 2.5%).

In both above couplets Pir has not used the word Dasond. Pir has explained in general terms that the earning member of family should take care of family first and then give charity in the name of Allah.
In my opinion you have confused yourself with the word AADH. It does not mean HALF but it means according to me 'in beginning' or 'first'. Like in Ginans the word used is AADH UN(N)AAD (in the beginning).
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19628

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

There are plenty of Arabic and Farsi words used in Ginanic literature. We can find many in Ginans/Grunths penned by Pir Sat Gur Noor, Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin, Syed Imam Shah, then why just to criticize Bhuj Nirinjin!
In my opinion when Mukhi Devraj and team collected Ginans and printed first time they omitted mostly Arabic and Farsi words used in Ginans because they knew not Arabic/Farsi. Therefore They tried to find matching words in vernacular languages and replaced them..
I was more interested in the Sufi tendencies prevalent during the time of Pir Sadardeen rather than the usage of Persian/Arabic terms. There was a presence of Sufis during his time and he also went for pilgrimage and had the title of Haji. Hence he was respected among the Sufis.
swamidada wrote:

In both above couplets Pir has not used the word Dasond. Pir has explained in general terms that the earning member of family should take care of family first and then give charity in the name of Allah.
In my opinion you have confused yourself with the word AADH. It does not mean HALF but it means according to me 'in beginning' or 'first'. Like in Ginans the word used is AADH UN(N)AAD (in the beginning).
That is what makes me feel that it is not the work of Pir Sadardeen or if it is, it is directed for general Sufis and not for his murids only. In our Tariqah the method of giving is called Dasond which has not been mentioned here. Also it has to be submitted to the Imam and not spent in any other manner.

The word aadh means half. You are confusing with the word aad which meaning the beginning. In any case the word beginning does not make sense in this verse.
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:

There are plenty of Arabic and Farsi words used in Ginanic literature. We can find many in Ginans/Grunths penned by Pir Sat Gur Noor, Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin, Syed Imam Shah, then why just to criticize Bhuj Nirinjin!
In my opinion when Mukhi Devraj and team collected Ginans and printed first time they omitted mostly Arabic and Farsi words used in Ginans because they knew not Arabic/Farsi. Therefore They tried to find matching words in vernacular languages and replaced them..
I was more interested in the Sufi tendencies prevalent during the time of Pir Sadardeen rather than the usage of Persian/Arabic terms. There was a presence of Sufis during his time and he also went for pilgrimage and had the title of Haji. Hence he was respected among the Sufis.
swamidada wrote:

In both above couplets Pir has not used the word Dasond. Pir has explained in general terms that the earning member of family should take care of family first and then give charity in the name of Allah.
In my opinion you have confused yourself with the word AADH. It does not mean HALF but it means according to me 'in beginning' or 'first'. Like in Ginans the word used is AADH UN(N)AAD (in the beginning).
That is what makes me feel that it is not the work of Pir Sadardeen or if it is, it is directed for general Sufis and not for his murids only. In our Tariqah the method of giving is called Dasond which has not been mentioned here. Also it has to be submitted to the Imam and not spent in any other manner.

The word aadh means half. You are confusing with the word aad which meaning the beginning. In any case the word beginning does not make sense in this verse.


Pir Sadardin went Mecca 3 times to perform Hajj. In west Punjab which is part of Pakistan he is known as Haji Sadr. You wrote, "he was respected in Sufis', I wander why not he shown those sufis the true path that is Satpunth, and made them Satpunthis!
You keep changing sides, twisting and somersaulting. You quoted that paragraph about usage of Arabic and Farsi vocabulary, and I gave you references of other Pirs who have used Arabic and Farsi words in Ginans. At that time and later on it was a common practice called 'REKHTA' means to add or induce words from other languages in poetry. I have couple of books on famous sufis of subcontinent including Pir Sadardin but no where in sufi circle found Bhuj Nirinjin specially written for sufis or mention of Bhuj in these books.
Because Pir has not used the word Dasond does not disqualify Bhuj Nirinjin. Lately in Farmans, Imam has not used the word Dasond that does not mean Ismailis shall stop paying Dasond or Imam issued the Farman for sufis.
In Urdu/Hindi for HALF the word used is AADHA and not AADH. I gave you Ginanic vocabulary AADH UUN(N)DH. Aadh means First and it makes sense when Pir said 'First take care of your family'.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19628

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swamidada wrote:

Pir Sadardin went Mecca 3 times to perform Hajj. In west Punjab which is part of Pakistan he is known as Haji Sadr. You wrote, "he was respected in Sufis', I wander why not he shown those sufis the true path that is Satpunth, and made them Satpunthis!
There are many strands in Sufism. There are Sufis with Shi'i inclination, there are Sufis with Sunni inclinations. Ultimately all paths lead to the truth. Hence the need to convert followers of other paths is not necessary. Diversity is a strength.
swamidada wrote:

You keep changing sides, twisting and somersaulting. You quoted that paragraph about usage of Arabic and Farsi vocabulary, and I gave you references of other Pirs who have used Arabic and Farsi words in Ginans. At that time and later on it was a common practice called 'REKHTA' means to add or induce words from other languages in poetry. I have couple of books on famous sufis of subcontinent including Pir Sadardin but no where in sufi circle found Bhuj Nirinjin specially written for sufis or mention of Bhuj in these books..
Language was never an issue with me and hence I have not made any points about that except referring to an article of Ali Asani which mentions the language issue. No one has explicitly said that Bujh Niranjan was a Sufi work. I have made my personal inferences based on the content. You can disagree with me, which is fine with me.
swamidada wrote:

Because Pir has not used the word Dasond does not disqualify Bhuj Nirinjin. Lately in Farmans, Imam has not used the word Dasond that does not mean Ismailis shall stop paying Dasond or Imam issued the Farman for sufis.
In Urdu/Hindi for HALF the word used is AADHA and not AADH. I gave you Ginanic vocabulary AADH UUN(N)DH. Aadh means First and it makes sense when Pir said 'First take care of your family'.
I have not said that Bujh Niranjan is disqualified. All I have said is that it does not reflect the correct principles of Satpanth Ismailism as preached by the Ismaili Pirs including Pir Sadardeen.

The word aadh has been used twice, once for the family and once for the cause of Allah. How can it mean first in both cases? Only the meaning half makes sense. As I said aad is the word for first not aadh.
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swamidada



Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:


Because Pir has not used the word Dasond does not disqualify Bhuj Nirinjin. Lately in Farmans, Imam has not used the word Dasond that does not mean Ismailis shall stop paying Dasond or Imam issued the Farman for sufis.
In Urdu/Hindi for HALF the word used is AADHA and not AADH. I gave you Ginanic vocabulary AADH UUN(N)DH. Aadh means First and it makes sense when Pir said 'First take care of your family'.
I have not said that Bujh Niranjan is disqualified. All I have said is that it does not reflect the correct principles of Satpanth Ismailism as preached by the Ismaili Pirs including Pir Sadardeen.

The word aadh has been used twice, once for the family and once for the cause of Allah. How can it mean first in both cases? Only the meaning half makes sense. As I said aad is the word for first not aadh.


Part 14:

aadh naam allaah khilaave
khaadam(tawbaadam) hoee mukhadumee paave..........................2

And the other half, spend in for Allah and with repentent attitude attain granter of repentance.

You have right to translate according to your understanding but rethink about the second line where words khadim and mukhdum are used by Pir. Also in my opinion the the word 'khilaave' is misspelled. It would be 'kailaae'.
My translation is;
First recite (take) name of Allah before (feeding or eating), that's how khadim (servant) will become makhdum (master) (by feeding others). It resembles with Hadith:
Syedul qoumi khadimihum.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5906

PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:18 am    Post subject: Mumtaz Ali Tajddin - Bhuj Nirinjan study original sources Reply with quote

Study of Ismaili work, Pir Sadardin's Bhuj Nirinjan from several sources.

I had the pleasure of traveling to Thatta and Bhambore in 1981 with both Mumtaz Ali and Ali Asani. Mumtaz Ali at that time proposed to Ali Asani to send him his study which showed that the Granth Bhuj Nirinjan was indeed written by Pir Sadardin based on a manuscript older than the one from India Office from which Asani was working but Asani's comment was that his thesis was already well advanced and could not be changed at that time.

this study was prepared in 1982 to help in that thesis. This document is 42 pages long and up to the point.

An exceptional authoritative study of Bhuj Nirijan by Mumtaz Ali Tajddin with detailed information from manuscripts. A must read. The author's English was criticized in the thesis of Ali Asani but in my opinion the information given by Mumtaz Ali is qualitatively at a much convincing and higher level than in any other work available on the subject to-date (August 2019)

Here is the pdf link:

http://ismaili.net/source/books/mumtaz-ali-bhuj-nirinjan.pdf





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