www.ismaili.net

kmaherali wrote:

salimkhoja786 wrote:WHY AFTER 58 YEARS...

MSMS passed away in 1957, I assume you should be kid at that time, Why after 58 years you raised this issue which was buried long ago and no one was talking about that. If Ismailis start believing in those two books which you mentioned means they should believe in TABLOID STORIES about Imam and his family or we accept the garbage on the U TUBE OR ACCEPT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN 'THRONE OF GOLD'.
I believe none of our IMAMS used alcohol. Let me quote from a e-mail received, I quote," What is the AGENDA of Heritage group they have stained the Institution of Imamah". Karachi walas are not happy with your post and your defenders.

Greenwall wrote his book in 1952. I was not even born then. I came across the book somewhere around 1980 and found it quite convincing and therefore I thought it worthy of mentioning here. I mentioned the book because I was asked by tret about whether the Imam drank alcohol, so I provided the evidence. There was no reason to mention it earlier.

Greenwall's book is NOT tabloid stuff. Greenwall was well acquainted with the Imam socially, he went to horse racing with him, he would dine with the Imam regularly, he would visit the Imam at the Ritz Hotel. As I mentioned before, the Imam wrote the Foreword to book and lent him his own photographs to be published in the book. I ask you to first read the book before being critical about it.

The agenda of the heritage is to project the correct understanding of the Imam - his actions can appear incomprehensible and we should not follow what he does but what he tells us.

Is this the agenda of Heritage to show world that our Imam is alcoholic?
Is the kind of service Heritage is providing to youth. Are you opening the door for youth to consume alcohol freely, no question asked?
Did Mowla Ali ever consumed alcohol?
As I wrote before, that I was aware of the statement of Mr. Green Wall, But I never mentioned to any one because I believed that Imam never consume alcohol and almost every Ismaili believe in this except few.
Look at the example of premier Rene of 1983, same way MSMS was given water in champagne glass. As you wrote Mr. Green Wall was friend MSMS, So Imam might have cracked a joke that wine turned into water.

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad.
I wish to see all extract of all 7 ayats and not pik and choose cunningness.hadith's are 85% bogus stuff floating in the spin bazaar.I never asked for it.please reply to the the question properly.

If you are a Muslim you should know Quran, if don't know Arabic you can study
English translations. Why don't you find yourself instead of ordering others.
You are given a reference that consuming of alcohol is SIN.
Beside Quran it is mentioned in ginans and farmans not to consume.
Follow farman if you are an Ismaili!
Your 3rd blind eye can't open by consuming alcohol.

ismaili103 wrote:

SAME RHETORIC AGAIN;
The topic under discussion is whether MSMS CONSUMED ALCOHOL OR NOT, and not about Chitralis, Huzains or Afghanis and their ancestors. You have been told not to disrespect parents or ancestors. BUT LATU(N) KEY BHUT BATU(N) SEY NAHI SAMAJHTEY. If admin allows this crap then we have to take the things in our hands and we should not be blamed. This is a warning.
You people have tendency of disrespecting others. Talk on the issues, if you do not have nothing new just keep your self away from jumping in. Central Asian Ismailis are also murids of same Imam as you khojas and mominas are.
Khojas and mominas are not something special to Imam. Khojas and mominas GANGA JAL NAHAI HUEY NAHI HAI(N). I am from Karachi and know well khoja /momina mentality. HASAD ME MAREY JAIEN GE.
I believe Imams and pirs never consume alcohol. It is you people who are degrading Institution of Imamah and wrote pir Sadruddin went on Kotha of prostitute to enjoy Mujra. THIS IS YOU PEOPLE'S MENTALITY NOT OURS
MR. KARIM JIVANI.

And again same reaction from you...burning burning

Why you are burning, you forgot you are salimkhoja not a central asian.

I have many friends from your area, and I never disrespect them because I knew how to treat Gems and Poops.

Sorry, we are not Hindu, so we didn't take bath from ganga jal.

No one said that Imam and Pir do this and consume that, we only said that Imam can do anything to examine his murids faith, including such events.

The anecdote about Pir saddardin is well known, It was like pir spent night in the house of prostitute, it is you who added word like kotha and mujra, so its clear who has ridiculous mentality. Let me make it clear ITS YOU. And BTW how can you accepts piratan, you was always against it so please don't act like "900 chuhay kha kar billi haj ko chali".

Well you didn't even know who I am, Karim Jivani was my REC teacher,how will you threatened me, but I know who you are Mr. Advocate mazhar shah khan. You know what I mean

BTW there is a farman of Imam Aga Alishah, in which he said " Momnas are my family members"

Your cousin Admin knocked down my 3 posts against you to give you protection. I respect pirs and was replying your poop mentality. What pir was doing in the house of prostitute at night? You people give ridiculous examples to degrade piratan. You are so brave that you are using your religious teacher's name to save your self, so that poor man get into trouble. It is easy to dance on internet with fake name. You can not hide your self Mr. Karim Jivani, we know you. A person who does not has respect for his religious teacher and exploit his name, how come will he respect others!!
Not only mominas but all Ismaili followers of Imam are his spiritual children.

salimkhoja786

I'm not a pacca ismaili but I understand your objection to what maherali bhai said.

We are here to learn from each other and not curse and call names.... A simple fact will settle this once and for all.



The Imam’s word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it.

Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan


The greatest danger to every Muslim citizen – I have not the least hesitation in saying it – is alcohol.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan


Our belief is that the thing which separates man from the animals is his power of thought. Anything that impedes this process is wrong. Therefore alcohol is forbidden. I have never touched alcohol.

Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan

Full para taken from Ismaili Gnosis

The greatest danger to every Muslim citizen – I have not the least hesitation in saying it – is alcohol. Time has shown that it is an injury to you; an injury to your person; an injury to your health. It is forbidden because it carries greater evil than good. Believe me, in a community like yours, alcohol is a very grave danger. Once you got into the alcohol habit, I do not know where it would lead you. A handful, here and there, of the weak, or of the unhappy, find their way to this terrible poison. Avoid it at all costs. Avoid it, I say, for in this country you cannot afford to lose one man.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III
Guidelines for the Muslims of Transvaal, 1954, Johannesburg, South Africa

salimkhoja786 wrote:Is this the agenda of Heritage to show world that our Imam is alcoholic?
Is the kind of service Heritage is providing to youth. Are you opening the door for youth to consume alcohol freely, no question asked?
Did Mowla Ali ever consumed alcohol?
As I wrote before, that I was aware of the statement of Mr. Green Wall, But I never mentioned to any one because I believed that Imam never consume alcohol and almost every Ismaili believe in this except few.
Look at the example of premier Rene of 1983, same way MSMS was given water in champagne glass. As you wrote Mr. Green Wall was friend MSMS, So Imam might have cracked a joke that wine turned into water.

For the purpose of accuracy there was no mention of the Imam being an alcoholic, though it would not make any difference if he were! We should not be concerned about what Imam does but what he tells us. The youth should know that we are NOT Sunnis - that we should not consider the actions of the Imam in terms of guidance. That is the REAL message of heritage, which is of the greatest service to the Jamat.

You have not read my post carefully. This was not a joke that the Imam cracked but something that Greenwall had noticed on an ongoing basis.

Elsewhere in the same book it is written:

"But the Agakhan, who doubt could afford the luxury of yachts, has never indulged such a fancy. In point of fact, his extravagances, if any, are not known. His racing he rightly regards as a good investment. His running of his one-man-control led Welfare State is carried out on strictly business lines, as has been shown: there is no wastage there, no extravagance. As a non-smoker, he buys cigars only for his guests, and his consumption of wines, though limited to the best, both for himself and for his friends, is by no means heavy." (Pg. 202)

So does the above statement sound like someone wanting to slander the Imam?He has accurately described the Imam according to his interaction with him as a friend. He has written an excellent chapter on Lady Ali Shah.

This is a blasphemous statement and there are repercussions of this statement at least in Pakistan. The person who wrote this, is enemy of khojas and mominas in Pakistan. When officially it was declared in 1975 by Imam that " IMAM IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH", why Admin is allowing and keep alive this statement, where as my previous reply was deleted. This shows the bloody AGENDA OF ADMIN. God forbid does Admin want some other massacre of Ismailis there, if that happened the blood should be on the hands of Admin and there like minded.

I can support my statement by tons of Ginans and many Farmans, but you can't.

And there is no difference between " Imam is Mazhar of Allah " and " Imam is Allah"

And BTW Mout aani hogy to koi chicago ma bhi headshot maar k jaa sakta ha, baki samajdaar to aap bhot ha.

Shiraz Bhai Ya Ali Madad,

Nice to see you again, but what are you doing you just jump into the discussion without knowing what's going on here, at least read last three page to know what's going on.

None of the member here's saying that Imam is alcoholic, the whole discussion is start with a statement that, Imam can do any thing to examine the faith of his Murids, he can even drink alcohol to examine us or even can do worst. So it's simple is that we shouldn't follow what Imam is doing but should follow what he is saying. We are not Sunnis, we have nothing to do with Imams actions.

Second point is, Imam is Manifestation of Allah, he is not bound in shariah activities, he can do whatever he want to do, that's it. On the other hand we all members are well awared about the status of Imam and Pir, Imam is Naklanki which means Pure and Stainless so there is no chance of un purity remains, even Imams body is purest in all creation.

salimkhoja786 wrote:There are 15 million Ismailis and every other household has excess to internet, if you count even 7% of 15 millions are watching then calculate the #s. Not only Ismailis but non Ismailis are in thousands which was admitted by Admin in one of his post. Such kind of posts are always viral.

Having access to the internet does not mean reading this forum. Just look at the number of hits per post. At most you will get 100 or 200, but no where in the thousands.

salimkhoja786 wrote:Past many years Imam is paying attention to youth of our community. Why Imam ordered to make changes according to time in new curriculum for RC students. The courses which we were taught and understanding given is totally different than our times.

There will always be a zahir and batin component to the curriculum. The Talim curriculum is designed so that other Muslims can use it as well minus Imamat. Therefore it has to be zahiri. At the same time we adults have to inculcate the batini dimension which has come down to us as a tradition.

salimkhoja786 wrote: This is a blasphemous statement and there are repercussions of this statement at least in Pakistan. The person who wrote this, is enemy of khojas and mominas in Pakistan. When officially it was declared in 1975 by Imam that " IMAM IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH", why Admin is allowing and keep alive this statement, where as my previous reply was deleted. This shows the bloody AGENDA OF ADMIN. God forbid does Admin want some other massacre of Ismailis there, if that happened the blood should be on the hands of Admin and there like minded.

Again you are assuming that the whole world is reading this forum. This is completely false. Just see the number of hits and you will know that only an infinitesimal minority reads this forum.

So this is effectively a batini forum and we can discuss the batini aspects of our faith here.

salimkhoja786 wrote: When officially it was declared in 1975 by Imam that " IMAM IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH", why Admin is allowing and keep alive this statement, where as my previous reply was deleted.

So explain to us what is the difference between Mazhar of Allah and Allah?

The new generation are not getting the correct understanding of Imamat. According to our Tariqah we do not follow the Sunna of the Prophet/Imams. That is the main difference between Sunnis and us.

I beg to differ
Sunni-Shia Muslim pray 5 Salah in a day Ismaili do not pray Walsh
Sunni-Shia Muslims fast in Ramadan Ismailis do not
Sunni-Shia MuslimS perform Hajj if they are able Ismaili do not
Sunni-Shia MuslimS face Kabba while praying Ismaili do not have to
Salat, swam, Hajj and facing aka ba are quranic commands and Sunni-Shia Muslims cannot change them

ismaili103 wrote:

This is a blasphemous statement and there are repercussions of this statement at least in Pakistan. The person who wrote this, is enemy of khojas and mominas in Pakistan. When officially it was declared in 1975 by Imam that " IMAM IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH", why Admin is allowing and keep alive this statement, where as my previous reply was deleted. This shows the bloody AGENDA OF ADMIN. God forbid does Admin want some other massacre of Ismailis there, if that happened the blood should be on the hands of Admin and there like minded.

I can support my statement by tons of Ginans and many Farmans, but you can't.

And there is no difference between " Imam is Mazhar of Allah " and " Imam is Allah"

And BTW Mout aani hogy to koi chicago ma bhi headshot maar k jaa sakta ha, baki samajdaar to aap bhot ha.

Brave heart go out in streets of Karimabad, Rahimabad or Azizabad or in rallies of mullahs and announce loudly that ' I believe Imam is as Allah', just imagine what they will do to you. No one has to shoot you. APNEY SATH APNI QOUM KO BHI LEY DHUBOGEY. THE IRRESPONSIBLE STATEMENTS LIKE THIS HAS SURELY REPERCUSSIONS.

kmaherali wrote:

salimkhoja786 wrote: When officially it was declared in 1975 by Imam that " IMAM IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH", why Admin is allowing and keep alive this statement, where as my previous reply was deleted.

So explain to us what is the difference between Mazhar of Allah and Allah?

This has been debated quite few times on this forum. Let me ask you this
question. What is the meaning of KITABULLA, means Kitab of Allah and ie is Quran like Mazhar of Allah. My question; IS KITAB BE CONSIDERED ON ITS OWN AS ALLAH.?

Brave heart go out in streets of Karimabad, Rahimabad or Azizabad or in rallies of mullahs and announce loudly that ' I believe Imam is as Allah', just imagine what they will do to you. No one has to shoot you. APNEY SATH APNI QOUM KO BHI LEY DHUBOGEY. THE IRRESPONSIBLE STATEMENTS LIKE THIS HAS SURELY REPERCUSSIONS.

Don't try to avoid what I said, just give me 5 Quotes from farman and Ginans which support Ali is not Allah, I can easily give you tons of Quotes to support Ali is Allah.

And you know what, Now I stopped counting how many times I have one on one debates with Mullahs in streets, so yes you are right I am brave hearted.

Then why hundereds of your people in chitral got killed in 90's even they didn't believe in Ali Allah.

zznoor wrote:

The new generation are not getting the correct understanding of Imamat. According to our Tariqah we do not follow the Sunna of the Prophet/Imams. That is the main difference between Sunnis and us.

I beg to differ
Sunni-Shia Muslim pray 5 Salah in a day Ismaili do not pray Walsh
Sunni-Shia Muslims fast in Ramadan Ismailis do not
Sunni-Shia MuslimS perform Hajj if they are able Ismaili do not
Sunni-Shia MuslimS face Kabba while praying Ismaili do not have to
Salat, swam, Hajj and facing aka ba are quranic commands and Sunni-Shia Muslims cannot change them

There is another big difference sister, which is we belives in living Imam, thats why we didn't gone astray.

kmaherali wrote:

salimkhoja786 wrote:There are 15 million Ismailis and every other household has excess to internet, if you count even 7% of 15 millions are watching then calculate the #s. Not only Ismailis but non Ismailis are in thousands which was admitted by Admin in one of his post. Such kind of posts are always viral.

Having access to the internet does not mean reading this forum. Just look at the number of hits per post. At most you will get 100 or 200, but no where in the thousands.

Look at this thread started by Jungli Khan in june, so far 10000+ hits in 8 months. Out of these 10000+ if not 50% at least 25% readers mostly Ismailis should be discussing the topic with friends, family members or in RC centers and in some of our institutions. Not only this but a religious party's magazine some time back claimed they down loaded 1500 pages of Heritage, and material in those pages was used against Ismailis in Pakistan. Our leaders and us are closing our eyes like pigeons when see cat coming.

ismaili103 wrote:

Brave heart go out in streets of Karimabad, Rahimabad or Azizabad or in rallies of mullahs and announce loudly that ' I believe Imam is as Allah', just imagine what they will do to you. No one has to shoot you. APNEY SATH APNI QOUM KO BHI LEY DHUBOGEY. THE IRRESPONSIBLE STATEMENTS LIKE THIS HAS SURELY REPERCUSSIONS.

Don't try to avoid what I said, just give me 5 Quotes from farman and Ginans which support Ali is not Allah, I can easily give you tons of Quotes to support Ali is Allah.

And you know what, Now I stopped counting how many times I have one on one debates with Mullahs in streets, so yes you are right I am brave hearted.

Then why hundereds of your people in chitral got killed in 90's even they didn't believe in Ali Allah.

They were killed because of irresponsible statements by persons like you.
In British court Imam declared," neither he nor his grand father claimed divinity".

kmaherali wrote:

salimkhoja786 wrote:Is this the agenda of Heritage to show world that our Imam is alcoholic?
Is the kind of service Heritage is providing to youth. Are you opening the door for youth to consume alcohol freely, no question asked?
Did Mowla Ali ever consumed alcohol?
As I wrote before, that I was aware of the statement of Mr. Green Wall, But I never mentioned to any one because I believed that Imam never consume alcohol and almost every Ismaili believe in this except few.
Look at the example of premier Rene of 1983, same way MSMS was given water in champagne glass. As you wrote Mr. Green Wall was friend MSMS, So Imam might have cracked a joke that wine turned into water.

For the purpose of accuracy there was no mention of the Imam being an alcoholic, though it would not make any difference if he were! We should not be concerned about what Imam does but what he tells us. The youth should know that we are NOT Sunnis - that we should not consider the actions of the Imam in terms of guidance. That is the REAL message of heritage, which is of the greatest service to the Jamat.

You have not read my post carefully. This was not a joke that the Imam cracked but something that Greenwall had noticed on an ongoing basis.

Elsewhere in the same book it is written:

"But the Agakhan, who doubt could afford the luxury of yachts, has never indulged such a fancy. In point of fact, his extravagances, if any, are not known. His racing he rightly regards as a good investment. His running of his one-man-control led Welfare State is carried out on strictly business lines, as has been shown: there is no wastage there, no extravagance. As a non-smoker, he buys cigars only for his guests, and his consumption of wines, though limited to the best, both for himself and for his friends, is by no means heavy." (Pg. 202)

So does the above statement sound like someone wanting to slander the Imam?He has accurately described the Imam according to his interaction with him as a friend. He has written an excellent chapter on Lady Ali Shah.

A simple question, Do you believe MSMS consumed wine? Yes or No.

(b)Shiraz Bhai Ya Ali Madad,(/b)
Mawla Ali madad mota bhai 

(b)Nice to see you again, but what are you doing you just jump into the discussion without knowing what's going on here, at least read last three page to know what's going on.(/b)

I'm sorry mota bhai, all I was trying to do is calm things down and nothing more. 

(b)None of the member here's saying that Imam is alcoholic, the whole discussion is start with a statement that, Imam can do any thing to examine the faith of his Murids, he can even drink alcohol to examine us or even can do worst. So it's simple is that we shouldn't follow what Imam is doing but should follow what he is saying. We are not Sunnis, we have nothing to do with Imams actions.(/b)

Mota bhai I think this is where I should differ from you....imams and prophets are our role models and I also I also agree with you when you say we should follow what imam e zaman tell us...but trying to paint imam e zaman with all sorts of things is not wise enough.

Life itself is a test mota bhai, the standard our imam e zaman has set for the jamatkhana I personally don't think our beloved imam will stoop to such level just to test his murid.

Now please don't get upset, I respect your opinion and hope you respect my opinion as well

(b)Second point is, Imam is Manifestation of Allah, he is not bound in shariah activities, he can do whatever he want to do, that's it. On the other hand we all members are well awared about the status of Imam and Pir, Imam is Naklanki which means Pure and Stainless so there is no chance of un purity remains, even Imams body is purest in all creation.(b)

Agreed!!!

I beg to differ
Sunni-Shia Muslim pray 5 Salah in a day Ismaili do not pray Walsh
Sunni-Shia Muslims fast in Ramadan Ismailis do not
Sunni-Shia MuslimS perform Hajj if they are able Ismaili do not
Sunni-Shia MuslimS face Kabba while praying Ismaili do not have to
Salat, swam, Hajj and facing aka ba are quranic commands and Sunni-Shia Muslims cannot change them

ZZ,
Aaiye Aaiye, my strange neighbour I was worry about your whereabout! where have you been for so long?, I inquired about you in Kalupur!!!! BTW whatever you wrote above are just unnecessary things which many Muslims are performing, and if some Muslims ( not only Ismailis but other Muslims too) does not perform then you can not tell them that they are not Muslims!! this topics has been discussed many times before so stop to drag me in this debate again!! otherwise you know.......me me very well ha. ha. ha Mrs.piglet!!!

Shiraz,

Wel come back Shiraz, I left Austin and moved in Sugar Land, Texas your residence place!!!ha. I am attending HPC Jamat Khana if you like to meet we can in any JKs in Houston.

Agakhani bhai, sure I live in Stafford but rarely go to JK bcoz of work , if I do its usually Sugarland JK, but it's good to know that you moved here

Ya Ali madad:
It is nice to see Shiraz and a lady expert in 85% fake hear say data.leaving all sentiments aside and stands aside. From a general reader point of view.
I wish to know placement number of 5 more ayats where the word wine is mentioned.
What is the standard definition of the word wine and the word alcohol.?
If HB speaks the truth those ayats needs to acknowledged and understood well.
Running away from truth is a job of a coward and not a scholar.
It is like conceding defeat.
I wish reply as I assume all as educated and avid readers of past printed data.
JO DAAR GAYA,SHAMJO HAAR GAYAA.

zznoor wrote: Salat, swam, Hajj and facing aka ba are quranic commands and Sunni-Shia Muslims cannot change them

The essence is in the Qur'an but the form can change according to time, it does not have to follow the Sunna of the Prophet/Imams. For example, 5 times is not mentioned in the Qur'an it is from the Sunna.

I should have said the difference between our Tariqah and other Muslims instead of Sunnis.

salimkhoja786 wrote:Brave heart go out in streets of Karimabad, Rahimabad or Azizabad or in rallies of mullahs and announce loudly that ' I believe Imam is as Allah', just imagine what they will do to you. No one has to shoot you. APNEY SATH APNI QOUM KO BHI LEY DHUBOGEY. THE IRRESPONSIBLE STATEMENTS LIKE THIS HAS SURELY REPERCUSSIONS.

Nobody is talking about shouting in the streets. It is about discussing this matter in a batini forum like this one. MHI has made did quite clear that there are two aspects to the interpretation of faith - the zahiri and the batini:

"Remember also that with regard to the interpretation of our faith, that which is Batin is Batin, that which is Zahir is Zahir. Remember that this is fundamental."(Damascus Syria, May 8, 1980)

So we should discuss batini matters in batini context.

salimkhoja786 wrote:This has been debated quite few times on this forum. Let me ask you this
question. What is the meaning of KITABULLA, means Kitab of Allah and ie is Quran like Mazhar of Allah. My question; IS KITAB BE CONSIDERED ON ITS OWN AS ALLAH.?

Yes it has been debated a few times in the Forum in the past and I also explained that there is no difference. But you seem to suggest otherwise, so I am asking what is the difference?

What has Kitaballah got to do with this? According to Paris Conference, the Imam is the Mazhar and NOT the book! If the book was the Mazhar, then there would be no need of Imamat!

salimkhoja786 wrote:Look at this thread started by Jungli Khan in june, so far 10000+ hits in 8 months. Out of these 10000+ if not 50% at least 25% readers mostly Ismailis should be discussing the topic with friends, family members or in RC centers and in some of our institutions. Not only this but a religious party's magazine some time back claimed they down loaded 1500 pages of Heritage, and material in those pages was used against Ismailis in Pakistan. Our leaders and us are closing our eyes like pigeons when see cat coming.

There are 10000+ hits but at the same time there are about 450 replies and 30 pages. So if a person went through the whole thread it would be considered as 30 hits. Also for each reply there are only 10000/450 = 22 hits. So on average each reply only generates 25 hits!. That is nothing when considering that there are millions of visits in the web these days.

As I said before, this is a batini forum because of the number of hits.

[quote="salimkhoja786]
A simple question, Do you believe MSMS consumed wine? Yes or No.[/quote]O course yes! Why do you think I posted material from Rumi and Greenwall?