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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Recycling of souls.
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Recycling of souls.
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junglikhan4



Joined: 15 Jun 2015
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:21 pm    Post subject: Recycling of souls. Reply with quote

There are unlimited laws of nature, amongst them one crucial law is law of recycling of matter in universe. Does this law applies for recycling of souls?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19761

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice and interesting way of looking at it!

According to the Farman of MHI, the soul is created and is given a physical form. Hence our bodies are expressions of our souls. Our bodies are constantly being recycled or renewed, hence our souls are recycled continuosly.

There is a hadith which states: Die before you die. Hence at every moment we die to our own selves to become something new or are reborn.

Our souls are of couse recycled in bigger ways as per Mowlana Rumi:

I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man,
To soar with angels blest;
But even from angelhood I must pass on ...

Another great mystic, Mansur al-Hallaj, famous for his formulation, Anal Haq (I am the truth: Aham Brahmo Asmi) wrote:

Like the herbage
I have sprung up many a time
On the banks of flowing rivers.
For a hundred thousand years
I have lived and worked
In every sort of body.

For for discussion you may want to go to:

Reincarnation in Islam
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2548&start=0
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junglikhan4



Joined: 15 Jun 2015
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kmaherali"]Nice and interesting way of looking at it!

According to the Farman of MHI, the soul is created and is given a physical form. Hence our bodies are expressions of our souls. Our bodies are constantly being recycled or renewed, hence our souls are recycled continuosly.


Km, thanks for your reply.
Let us look at this question in some other way.
Bodies can gain and loose weight, so the change in body will affect the soul too, hence soul will loose the weight or gain the weight or soul will stay weightless.
Soul is composed of billions of highly charged entities which live in the cells. Body cells keep destroying and new cells are taking place. Can we assume that body cell loss is affecting the particles in soul system, means soul is also capable of loosing and gaining its entities.
From matter and minerals we can make millions of things of different sizes, dimensions and forms etc. Since soul is related to body, therefore its size and dimensions can be changed.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19761

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junglikhan4 wrote:
Let us look at this question in some other way.
Bodies can gain and loose weight, so the change in body will affect the soul too, hence soul will loose the weight or gain the weight or soul will stay weightless.
Soul is composed of billions of highly charged entities which live in the cells. Body cells keep destroying and new cells are taking place. Can we assume that body cell loss is affecting the particles in soul system, means soul is also capable of loosing and gaining its entities.
From matter and minerals we can make millions of things of different sizes, dimensions and forms etc. Since soul is related to body, therefore its size and dimensions can be changed.
MHI talks about practising your faith and cleansing of the soul. Hence there is a notion of removing impurities which can be both physical and mental/spiritual.

Also we should not confuse the 'size' or worth of the soul in terms of physical size. A mountain has a huge size but the worth of it's soul could be significant, on the other hand, a tiny saint could have the worth of God - drop merging into the Ocean.

In a Farman MHI says that a person who does not have faith is not worth the dust on the road.
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junglikhan4



Joined: 15 Jun 2015
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
junglikhan4 wrote:
Let us look at this question in some other way.
Bodies can gain and loose weight, so the change in body will affect the soul too, hence soul will loose the weight or gain the weight or soul will stay weightless.
Soul is composed of billions of highly charged entities which live in the cells. Body cells keep destroying and new cells are taking place. Can we assume that body cell loss is affecting the particles in soul system, means soul is also capable of loosing and gaining its entities.
From matter and minerals we can make millions of things of different sizes, dimensions and forms etc. Since soul is related to body, therefore its size and dimensions can be changed.
MHI talks about practising your faith and cleansing of the soul. Hence there is a notion of removing impurities which can be both physical and mental/spiritual.

Also we should not confuse the 'size' or worth of the soul in terms of physical size. A mountain has a huge size but the worth of it's soul could be significant, on the other hand, a tiny saint could have the worth of God - drop merging into the Ocean.

In a Farman MHI says that a person who does not have faith is not worth the dust on the road.


Reply,
Km, I agree that a person who does not have faith is not worth the dust on the road. But there are persons who do not believe in God are still doing well and are better off and are doing charity work!

Let me ask you other question. What is difference in Noor and Soul?
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khan Saab,

As per my thinking noor is a Devine power from Allah, which is only bestowed to a member of Ahl e bait family , the holders of Noor should be sinless person, pak pakiza. It should be appointed by previous noor holder and should be a direct decedents of PROPHET MOHAMMED family. Ismailis calls such kind person as an their imam.
The soul is eternal, its also comes from Allah same like Noor but everybody has soul but not the Noor and this is the main different between soul and noor.
i.e every human being does have soul but every human being does not have Noor!
This is my basic thoughts I will love to know what Kbhai, Nuseri and Admin thinking in this.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19761

PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junglikhan4 wrote:
Km, I agree that a person who does not have faith is not worth the dust on the road. But there are persons who do not believe in God are still doing well and are better off and are doing charity work!

Let me ask you other question. What is difference in Noor and Soul?

I will answer by reference to MHI's interview:

AH-How do you resolve this then that people who do not have the Faith of Islam, they have their own faiths, may be followers of holy books or otherwise, they have made great progress. How is it, if correct faith and true faith was the foundation.

MHI-I would question what you interpret as , or the elements you put in the word "progress". There are many aspects of the industrialised world as it is called today which I do not wish for the future of the Islamic world, nor for my own children. I think there are imbalances there, which of course exist in other societies but the imbalance is there, which I don't think are healthy, which I would wish changed, which I would hope Islamic society in the future will address and find different forms, perhaps better forms, of solutions. So, I don't think one can equate "progress" exclusively with what is happening in the industrialised world now, very far from it.
http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/i851112a.html

In my opinion soul and noor are the same. In his Memoirs MSMS says:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

MSMS also says in his Memoirs that we are all endowed with the spark of the spirit and that we should ensure that it grows and does not diminish. Hence it is a matter of degree.

Soul grows from individual soul to universal soul. The spark grows into complete noor. Both the same.
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kbhai,
You are saying that Noor and soul are same! Ok, let me ask you one simple question : Where is "Noor" in human bodies?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19761

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Kbhai,
You are saying that Noor and soul are same! Ok, let me ask you one simple question : Where is "Noor" in human bodies?
There is a Farman which states: "The most important thing is that through prayer and through attendance in all your religious duties, you should have that Light (Noor) in your heart which will give you happiness."

There is a verse of Sloko:

Dil manhe deval pujie
Ane dil man he dev duaar
Dil man he aape sanhiya vase
And dil man he aape deedar
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junglikhan4



Joined: 15 Jun 2015
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Khan Saab,

As per my thinking noor is a Devine power from Allah, which is only bestowed to a member of Ahl e bait family , the holders of Noor should be sinless person, pak pakiza. It should be appointed by previous noor holder and should be a direct decedents of PROPHET MOHAMMED family. Ismailis calls such kind person as an their imam.
The soul is eternal, its also comes from Allah same like Noor but everybody has soul but not the Noor and this is the main different between soul and noor.
i.e every human being does have soul but every human being does not have Noor!
This is my basic thoughts I will love to know what Kbhai, Nuseri and Admin thinking in this.


Reply to Ak saheb,

I agree with first paragraph of your posting that Imam is noor u Allah and he is pure. I do not agree with your assertion that, " every human being does have soul but does not have noor." I want to remind you the ayat e noor, which says," Allahu nooru samawti wal ardh." hence every particle in universe contains noor of Allah.
Ak, What is the real defination of Noor, because the meaning light is mentioned allegorically.
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junglikhan4



Joined: 15 Jun 2015
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="kmaherali"]
junglikhan4 wrote:
Km, I agree that a person who does not have faith is not worth the dust on the road. But there are persons who do not believe in God are still doing well and are better off and are doing charity work!

Let me ask you other question. What is difference in Noor and Soul?




In my opinion soul and noor are the same. In his Memoirs MSMS says:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

MSMS also says in his Memoirs that we are all endowed with the spark of the spirit and that we should ensure that it grows and does not diminish. Hence it is a matter of degree.

Soul grows from individual soul to universal soul. The spark grows into complete noor. Both the same.


Reply to Km,

I agree with your opinion that noor and soul are same.
Km, please explain the real definition of noor. To equate noor with light is allegorical.
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kbhai and Khan Saab,
What you consider Ismaili current Imam? a holder of Noor or holder of soul?
Why we are not telling him as a holder of soul? If soul and noor are same in your both"s opinion! then we should tell Ismaili imam as A holder of soul not holder of noor! icon_lol.gif
Bravo! I have also soul and soul is Noor also as per your thinking so that I am also imam or kbhai or our old freind , just recemtly changed name can be consider him self as an imam icon_wink.gif because we all have NOOR! Enjoy every one because we all are imam!
Kbhai be honest with you some time your comments puts me in laughing situation.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about saying that the soul is the drop and the Noor is the Ocean. When the drop (soul) merges with the Ocean (Noor) it looses its identity and becomes the Ocean itself. Would that make sense?
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good example Admin, but it is still hard to believe for me that soul and noor both are same.

About Noor:

If we thinking as per Ismaili perceptive then Noor is divine power and it only bestowed a specific person . Not all human beings have it but only few ( Ismaili Imams) have it.

You can not consider some one's intelligence as a Noor.

About soul:-

All living creature has soul, it may be a Trees, animals, mountains/mineral, human being but they all can not be an Imams who can guide us as our imam is doing!! there are 4 'KHANS" as per pirs who has souls; it is beautifully explained in our ginanic literature.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the ginan Prem Patan explains the difference between Noor (Raja Mansoudh) and individual Soul (Radya de Rani)

The Soul is accompanie in its journey towards the Light. When the soul does its best but still can not reach the destination, the Noor which is guiding us takes the soul on its shouder and bring the soul to the "Dev jo Dwar" the door of the Light of the Imam.
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junglikhan4



Joined: 15 Jun 2015
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Kbhai and Khan Saab,
What you consider Ismaili current Imam? a holder of Noor or holder of soul?
Why we are not telling him as a holder of soul? If soul and noor are same in your both"s opinion! then we should tell Ismaili imam as A holder of soul not holder of noor! icon_lol.gif
Bravo! I have also soul and soul is Noor also as per your thinking so that I am also imam or kbhai or our old freind , just recemtly changed name can be consider him self as an imam icon_wink.gif because we all have NOOR! Enjoy every one because we all are imam!
Kbhai be honest with you some time your comments puts me in laughing situation.


Reply to Ak saheb,

I asked for definition of noor, but so far no explanation.
Let me give my opinion. Noor is the binding forceof matter and creation in universe. It is the foundation of building blocks of universe. Without noor the universe will fall apart. Noor is that particle which scientists are looking for and call it heavenly particle.

LAHU KHURSHEED KA TAPKEY
GAR ZAREY KA DIL CHEEREY.

Ak, every one can not be Imam, it is a God given authority and only chosen ones are bestowed with authority and responsibility.
By the way, there is a sufi saying,

GAR TU KHUDA DANI KHUDAI
WA GAR TU GADA DANI GADAI.
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junglikhan4



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Posts: 208

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="agakhani"]Kbhai and Khan Saab,
What you consider Ismaili current Imam? a holder of Noor or holder of soul?

Reply to Ak saheb,

MSMS said in a farman," tum apney dil mey apni ruh yani merey noor ko dekho."

Bombay, 4 April 1908. Quote from booklet," Ruhani Raaz"
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the simple definition of the word 'NOOR" is light but that is not true
In my opinion the noor's definition as a light is not enough, its not reach the top level of the word Noor and if we accept it then it is injustice to "NOOR".

My definition of the word "Noor" is there is no definition of the word 'Noor"

There may be many other definitions as well from different persons! but nobodies can claims that their definition is 100% true for the word of "NOOR".

At one point I agree with your given definition above on Noor, to me it seems quiet right but it is possible that may be other peoples may not accepts it!! first of all it is very hard to understand the matter and its forces, tiny particles e.t.c!! peoples stilll not reach that far even in this modern and advance time!!
There are many questions still remained unanswered
-Who controlling this universe? where is that energy? does that energy also calls as Allah?
-If cosmic energy and nature plays important rolls in our lives and whole universe then what is roll of Allah?
your definition may be right for some educated persons but may be not for others! one thing is true that scientists still has not reach that decision that noor is a small part (particle)of some unknown individual!!
So far scientist have agreed and started to believe that there are some "super power" in whole universe who is commanding and controlling every thing!! but they still has not given any definition to that controlling force!! icon_lol.gif what would you tell that unknown force Noor, Allah, cosmic energy, light or Nature!!??
Now back to the general definition of noor -light Does light controlling whole universe? your answer will be no, and that is what Ismaili pirs has wrote in their ginans that
'TARO BHED KOI NA JANE" and I thinks nobody will understand him 100% in future too.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yaa Ali Madad,

According to my understanding every Human( not every living organism ) have Noor , this Noor is Known as Spirit in our Body and that Spirit/ Noor is it self DIVINE( IMAM ).

Human body is abode of Soul and Spirit both.

Soul is the force by which we are living and are able to move,feel etc or soul is living force. Every living organism have Soul.

But Noor or Spirit is itself noor e illahi . When Mowla makes the firman to do ibadat and come closer to Noor and then be one with that Noor is actually for our soul to come closer spirit in our body.

As mowla Ali says, " jis khud ko pehchana, us ne goya rab ko pehchana ".

Everything written above is my understanding and interpretation.
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that human being has soul and spirit!
Well Shinan can you please elaborate it with details?
whatever you thinks always welcome, if not by everyone then offcours from me that is for sure because I am a student and always ready to know some thing new! So please do not hesitate to write your comments and inputs.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Interesting that human being has soul and spirit!
Well Shinan can you please elaborate it with details?
whatever you thinks always welcome, if not by everyone then offcours from me that is for sure because I am a student and always ready to know some thing new! So please do not hesitate to write your comments and inputs.


Yaa Ali Madad Agakhani bhai,

Did you really didn't know about it...because i had read about this from your previous account posts.. You always wrote human have Athmaa and jeev and both are different.

Ok..I elaborate it..

Jeev in body is soul
Athma is spirit

Spirit controls soul...spirit lives in intellegence while soul lives in heart.
After death a persons soul is accountable for his or her deeds, but spirit is it self noor e illahi and is not accountable.
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junglikhan4



Joined: 15 Jun 2015
Posts: 208

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
agakhani wrote:
Interesting that human being has soul and spirit!
Well Shinan can you please elaborate it with details?
whatever you thinks always welcome, if not by everyone then offcours from me that is for sure because I am a student and always ready to know some thing new! So please do not hesitate to write your comments and inputs.


Yaa Ali Madad Agakhani bhai,

Did you really didn't know about it...because i had read about this from your previous account posts.. You always wrote human have Athmaa and jeev and both are different.

Ok..I elaborate it..

Jeev in body is soul
Athma is spirit

Spirit controls soul...spirit lives in intellegence while soul lives in heart.
After death a persons soul is accountable for his or her deeds, but spirit is it self noor e illahi and is not accountable.


Reply.

The English word spirit comes from Latin "spiritus" meaning breath. The word soul is also used in meaning of breath. The notions of a person's spirit and soul often overlap. In Quran the words used are NAFS AND RUH.
It is interesting to note that in Quran the word RUH is use in singular form and not in plural form ARWAH.

Thomas Edison (1847-1931), who had 1093 patents in his name, invented most important things like light bulb, phonograph, movie camera etc, was asked a question on his 80th birthday, I quote," Do you believe man has a soul." His reply was," No one understands that man is not a unit of life.
He is as dead as granite. The unit of life is composed of a swarms of billions of highly charged entities which live in the cells. I believe that when a man dies, this swarm deserts the body and goes out into space, but keeps on and enters another cycle of life and is immortal."
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5936

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RUH may be used in singular in Quran, however there is a Farman of Imam Aga Ali Shah that talks of "Alam al Arwa" (which is from your post, Ruh in plurial?)
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junglikhan4 wrote:
ismaili103 wrote:
agakhani wrote:
Interesting that human being has soul and spirit!
Well Shinan can you please elaborate it with details?
whatever you thinks always welcome, if not by everyone then offcours from me that is for sure because I am a student and always ready to know some thing new! So please do not hesitate to write your comments and inputs.


Yaa Ali Madad Agakhani bhai,

Did you really didn't know about it...because i had read about this from your previous account posts.. You always wrote human have Athmaa and jeev and both are different.

Ok..I elaborate it..

Jeev in body is soul
Athma is spirit

Spirit controls soul...spirit lives in intellegence while soul lives in heart.
After death a persons soul is accountable for his or her deeds, but spirit is it self noor e illahi and is not accountable.


Reply.

The English word spirit comes from Latin "spiritus" meaning breath. The word soul is also used in meaning of breath. The notions of a person's spirit and soul often overlap. In Quran the words used are NAFS AND RUH.
It is interesting to note that in Quran the word RUH is use in singular form and not in plural form ARWAH.

Thomas Edison (1847-1931), who had 1093 patents in his name, invented most important things like light bulb, phonograph, movie camera etc, was asked a question on his 80th birthday, I quote," Do you believe man has a soul." His reply was," No one understands that man is not a unit of life.
He is as dead as granite. The unit of life is composed of a swarms of billions of highly charged entities which live in the cells. I believe that when a man dies, this swarm deserts the body and goes out into space, but keeps on and enters another cycle of life and is immortal."


Interesting....and yes he is right. That highly charged entities is Soul but not Ruh. Dont forget our Pir tell us in Ginan that after a person death his or her soul get reward according to their deeds. Many souls attain salvation, many became angels , many get rebirth in human and in other organism forms.

Yes at some extent soul is immortal but, Imam can destroy anyone souls. Don't forget Imam is also destroyer ( Mahesh ) according to Ginanic literature.

On the other hand Spirit is it self Noor e illahi. Their is nothing like Good and Bad attached with Spirit, Spirit is beyond everything.

What Quran says is " spirit is AMAR of your God"...not exact words.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The English word spirit comes from Latin "spiritus" meaning breath


Don't forget there are many different meanings of word "SPIRIT" and soul is one of them!!
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junglikhan4



Joined: 15 Jun 2015
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="agakhani"]Well, the simple definition of the word 'NOOR" is light but that is not true
In my opinion the noor's definition as a light is not enough, its not reach the top level of the word Noor and if we accept it then it is injustice to "NOOR".

My definition of the word "Noor" is there is no definition of the word 'Noor"

Reply,

Qadi Noaman in his famous book" Dua'imul Islam" has mentioned a hadith of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, I quote," AL ILMU NOORUN YAJA'ALAHU LLAH
FI QALBI MANNYASHA' MIN IBAADIH." (HADITH)
Translation; Al Ilm ( hikmah,wisdom, haqqiqatul ashya', original/real knowledge) is noor. Allah put that Ilm in the qalb of people whom He wants/likes. Now question is what is QALB?
----------------------------------------------------------
At one point I agree with your given definition above on Noor, to me it seems quiet right but it is possible that may be other peoples may not accepts it!! first of all it is very hard to understand the matter and its forces, tiny particles e.t.c!! peoples stilll not reach that far even in this modern and advance time!!

-If cosmic energy and nature plays important rolls in our lives and whole universe then what is roll of Allah?

Reply,

Allahu noorus Sammawati wal ardh. He is the foundation. He is the supreme authority in universe. He is the motivator of every thing in His universe by laws of nature.
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junglikhan4



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Quote:
The English word spirit comes from Latin "spiritus" meaning breath


Don't forget there are many different meanings of word "SPIRIT" and soul is one of them!!


Reply,

You mean spirit and soul are same, as you wrote spirit has many meanings and soul is one of them.
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junglikhan4



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

quote ismaili103,
Interesting....and yes he is right. That highly charged entities is Soul but not Ruh. Dont forget our Pir tell us in Ginan that after a person death his or her soul get reward according to their deeds. Many souls attain salvation, many became angels , many get rebirth in human and in other organism forms.

Yes at some extent soul is immortal but, Imam can destroy anyone souls. Don't forget Imam is also destroyer ( Mahesh ) according to Ginanic literature.

On the other hand Spirit is it self Noor e illahi. Their is nothing like Good and Bad attached with Spirit, Spirit is beyond everything.

What Quran says is " spirit is AMAR of your God"...not exact words.

Reply to ismaili103,

First you and Mr. Ak decide spirit and soul are same or different entities.
By the way a muslim, an ismaili or follower of any religion knows about good deeds/bad deeds and reward or punishment. Here discussion is about spirit/soul or nafs and ruh.
You wrote,"at some extent soul is immortal but Imam can destroy it."
Let me quote a farman, HI said,"the only part of you which is eternal is your soul. Never forget this." So Imam is not going to destroy souls.
You wrote," there is nothing good or bad attached with spirit."
Let me quote MSMS's farman."always keep clean your ruh." Imam has used the word ruh and you have quoted Quran equating spirit with Amr, where as Quran has used the word" ar Ruh".
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agakhani



Joined: 20 May 2015
Posts: 271

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You mean spirit and soul are same, as you wrote spirit has many meanings and soul is one of them.



Nope, You misunderstand that, I never told they both are same!! Khan Saab.

And Yes! spirit has many meanings like fairy, angels, ghost, life, breath,vigor, courage and soul.

As per ginanic other religious literature.
JEEV & AATMA are different entities.
Spirit is eternal jeev doesn't
Jeev has feeling like sadness, happiness, pain and feeling e.t.c.
Soul doesn't have any feeling.
Animals and vegetables have also soul.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

junglikhan4 wrote:
quote ismaili103,
Interesting....and yes he is right. That highly charged entities is Soul but not Ruh. Dont forget our Pir tell us in Ginan that after a person death his or her soul get reward according to their deeds. Many souls attain salvation, many became angels , many get rebirth in human and in other organism forms.

Yes at some extent soul is immortal but, Imam can destroy anyone souls. Don't forget Imam is also destroyer ( Mahesh ) according to Ginanic literature.

On the other hand Spirit is it self Noor e illahi. Their is nothing like Good and Bad attached with Spirit, Spirit is beyond everything.

What Quran says is " spirit is AMAR of your God"...not exact words.

Reply to ismaili103,

First you and Mr. Ak decide spirit and soul are same or different entities.
By the way a muslim, an ismaili or follower of any religion knows about good deeds/bad deeds and reward or punishment. Here discussion is about spirit/soul or nafs and ruh.
You wrote,"at some extent soul is immortal but Imam can destroy it."
Let me quote a farman, HI said,"the only part of you which is eternal is your soul. Never forget this." So Imam is not going to destroy souls.
You wrote," there is nothing good or bad attached with spirit."
Let me quote MSMS's farman."always keep clean your ruh." Imam has used the word ruh and you have quoted Quran equating spirit with Amr, where as Quran has used the word" ar Ruh".


Khan,

Imam made the farman and Imam is always true. But Imam uses the word Soul, like keep ur Soul clean. Imam never said Soul and Spirit are same..

Imam tell us time by time to keep ur deeds good to clean ur Soul. It doesnot mean soul cannot be destroy. Imam give you many chances by giving rebirth in ismailism, and if you cant fullfil your mission, Imam can destroy our soul. CREATOR CAN CREATE ANYTHING AS WELL AS DESTROY ANYTHING.

QURAN says, " Tumhari rooh tumhare rab ka hukum( amr) hai" . Not axact ayat.

Our Pirs have clearly tell us that human have Soul( jeev) and spirit( Rooh) and both are different.

Spirit is one who control us, including soul.
Soul is one by which we are ale to do actions.
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