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momin chetamani
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fayaz006



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
Fayaz - Why do you say this argument is a contradiction? contradiction to what? Please explain yourself clearly.

On the contrary, I explained [or tried to explain] the concept of Taw'hid, based on my understanding from the works of Hujjats and Dai's of Ismailis, providing you [credible and authentic] references and you are more than welcome to inform yourself.

- when you say "Essence and Intellect must be the same": Please provide any reference, beside your own opinion.

Fayaz - What I am trying to articulate, is not my own invented philosophy. But this is the teachings of our very own Hujjats of the Imam of the Time. Having said that, I don't believe the rule of majority holds any truth or is valid. I could argue that ahl-e-sunnah [or even Christianity] in number are more than ismailis; does that make our tariqa right or wrong?? It doesn't bother me at all that every member of this site is disagreeing with me. Just FYI, there were other participants who have just stopped coming to this site, because of inconsistencies. I might as well do the same at some point. Difference of opinion is alright, so long as it is express it in a civilized manner. But, if that can not be maintained, one is not obliged to participate.

Everyone is entitled to their own belief and opinion. There are millions of people in india who believe elephants and cows are god, is it my business??? I tried to provide authentic references, inline with Ismaili Muslim Doctrine. You are more than welcome to reject'em.

Hafiz says: Your [Hafiz's] duty is to say prayer --- Don't bother if one listens to it or not.



BTW, it's Navroz Mubarak, first of all. Second, it's not "Khusyali Mubarak", it is Khushalli Mubarak


Tret for this will be my last reply on the issue, since we are going around in circles and you are arguing without reading the posted Ginans and articles on the issue.

First of i dont need to be any more clear on the contradiction between your articulation of Monotheist Ismailism verses my articulation of Monorealist Ismailism

You asked for my sources, i have provided them in the past with the article on the beliefs of MSMS on God, and various others have posted the requist Ginans. Below are 2 more sources provided by KM

KM wrote
1) Risala Dar Haqiqati Din by SHABU'D-DIN SHAH AL-HUSAYNI,
TRUE MEANING OF RELIGION, Translated into English by W. IVANOW

It can be accessed at:
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0693.html

2) PANDIYAT-I JAWANMARDI OR “ADVICES OF MANLINESS” BY W. IVANOW which can be accessed at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/book_view?apage=P

The first one was written by the son of Maulana Ali Shah the second by Maulana Mustansirbillah the second.

I would like to argue that these along with the Ginans hold much more weight than Qadi Numan's EXOTERIC treasteties. I am familiar with them, i have informed my self of them. On the contrary you have still not informed your self on the Ginans provided.

The Fatimid Treatises were developed to reconcile Greek, Persian and Arabic philosophies of God or The One. Qadi Numan was living in Fatimid Egypt whose majority population was Maliki Sunni. I have no doubt that his work was influenced by that fact more than any other.

However even with these sources and several others provided to you in the past, i believe you will still argue, which is a sign of intellectual dishonesty. You have maintained that your version is official Ismaili Doctrine. Well i guess most members of this web site would disagree based on several sources provided in the past and in the reply. Also your reference to cows as God, was it directed at us? The spelling correction was a joke i hope and not a jab.
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mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 149


Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject:

Mazhar, khusyali Mubarak.

Here we go...

Here are some verses from Anant Akhado( as you want ref from OFFICIAL PIRS GINANS).

In below 2 verse PIR HASSAN clearly said that HE IS GUR BHRAMA( craetor of the universe)/ MUHAMMAD.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Hasnaapuree maanhe takhatej bettha
kenne tyaan na jaannyaa jee
Gur Bhramaa Peer Sadardeen pota
tenne keedhaa nehaar....................Haree anant..277

Oh Lord In the place of Hasnaapuri He is seated on the throne
nobody recognised Him there
Peer Sadardin who is the bearer of Prophetic Light
(Gur Bhramaa) reached there
He showed His affection for the Lord
(and was blessed with the spiritual enlightenment)
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Amne sohee Gur Bhramaa-jee thaapeeyaa
tyaare te ek jeev karee deetthaa jee
naanaa mottaa sarve ek-j deetthaa
nahee koi heennaa na kheennaa...........Haree anant..171

Oh Lord It is the light of prophethood(Nur-e-Nabuwwah) that
has established us(mankind)
At that time He saw us as one universal soul
He saw the small ones and the big ones as one
nobody was regarded as lower or higher
Haree You are eternal...

I will come up with the GINAN OF PIR SHAMS AND PIR SADARDIN IN WHICH THEY SAID THEY ARE CREATOR OF UNIVERSES. LATER.


Those who said in previous post that ONLY WE ISMAILIS ARE LUCKY THAT WE HAVE ALI ALLAH AND OTHER 6 billion ARE NOT... IS THIS THE EQUALITY BY ALLAH.

I think MAZHAR YOU OR TRET SAID THIS. so here is the answer for your question by PIR HASSAN KABIRUDDIN.


Aashaajee Kalaa sarve kalaa maanhe bettha
duneeyaa maanhe kalaa nav jaanne koi jee
khotti kali maanhe cheti karee chaalo
raakho puraa Imaan......................Haree anant..389

Oh Lord All the manifestations(avataars) are established upon
previous manifestations(light upon light)
In this world nobody(outside the jamaat) knows the
manifestations
In this difficult and false present era be vigilant
and maintain complete Faith
Haree You are eternal.


Atlast for those whi critisizing GINANS and didnot learn or belive in GINAN.

HERE IS THE VERSE FROM ANANT AKHADO FOR THEM.

Aashaajee Kal jug kuddo sahu paakhandde raache
andhele janam gumaayaa jee
neechee preete te jeev chaale
je nahee veechaare geenaan..............Haree anant..391
Oh Lord The present era is false and everyone lives in a
deceptive manner
They are the blind ones(faithless) who have lost
this human birth(opportunity)
The one who loves the lower things
is the one who does not reflect upon the ginaans
Haree You are eternal

By the way mazhar i'm only 19 and even didnot completed my HRE PART 2. REC teacher to dur ki baat ha...

Reply to Ismaili 103,
With ref. to your above post, I have seen the oldest copies of Anant Akharo and couldn't find the word
Ali there. Through the granth Hari is mentioned as you have copied in your references. The word Hari was changed to Ali in time of MSMS. In my view avtar, manifestation, and noor are different terms.
Avtar means reincarnation and that is according to Hindu mythology used for conversion.by our pirs. In one of his Farmans MSMS said, " Hindu ki bateen ilm mey parhtey ho ye wajib nahen, jab tum Hindu
thee pir Sadruddin ne tumey rasta dikhaya, wo zamana guzar gaya. Abhi Mowla ki ta'reef parho. Abhi 9 avtar chhor do-------" We are living in 21 century and not in the age of Kartaa, Treta or in dwaapur ages. We are in kal yug, kal means machine as I understand, so we are living in age of machines and our Imam is guiding us accordingly. If Pir SADRUDDIN and following pirs have directly trained the converties to Islamic tenets of salat,zakat soum,and hajj and ofcourse Islamic spiritualism as other Islamic pirs and saints did in subcontinent we should not have been discussing this subject.
Now let me quote couple of parts from Anant Akharo for your enlightenment.
ASHAA JI NASIRUDDIN NOOR J PAYA
HUWA SO DIN RAHMAN JI
HINDU KERI PUJA KARTA
KENEY NA PAYA BHED. HARI-------PART 380
Meaning; O Lord, Pir Nasiruddin enlightened with Noorby practicing Din e Rahman.No one has been able to achieve this mystery( secret ) by just performing Hindu rituals.

ASHAA JI CHALTAR HINDU ANDAR MUSALMAN
KOI NAV TENE JANE JI
ROM RAHYA KAYAA NAV RAAKHEY
RAAT EEYA KARE UJAAGRA. HARI-------PART 381.
Meaning, O Lord, He ( Pir Nasiruddin ) took on a Hindu disguise but inwardly he was a muslim, no body knew him as that. H e did not keep any hairs on his body ( like sadhu )and used to spend the night awake ( in worship ).
In His last 7 years of Imamat MSMS made drastic changes. If some one is not accepting the changes, I can't help.Let me quote a Farman of MSMS again, " In my 70 years of Imamat I have changed Farmans 70 times." Being an Ismaili Muslim, I believe in ALLAH, RASUL, IMAM and not in vishnu, brahma and mahesar.
KALEY BHOJAN JAMIYA TENA AAJEY SHA WAKHAN REY.
Munu, by the way some one told me you are in your early 20's and conducting classes, if not now hopefully in future, you have talent. In which RC you are doing HRE part 2?.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5906

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mazhar,

You have invented Farmans in the past and now you have misquoted a farman saying do not follow 9 Avatars but you have cropped the Farman and hide that this is not the end of the Farman as it continues to say follow the 10th Avatar.

Now this is the kind of manipulation and fraud you are conducting on this website hoping people are as uneducated as you think they are and that your manipulations will not be discovered. Now here is a challenge: try once more to manipulate Farmans and it will be my pleasure to ban you from this Forum.

Fraudsters and forgers are not welcome here. You are on Notice!

Admin
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Fayaz,

I thought I'd want to have the last say on this, then:

I repeat again, what's the contradiction? Simply repeat, if there's any!

Let me refresh your memory of what I said and I quote myself. I don't even want to re-phrase or paraphrase.

tret wrote:

The Command of God, which is HIS Essence encompasses the First contingent reality that is the cause of all causes. The Act of creation of The Supreme God/The Transcendent, in every awakening moment is complete. The agent of creation is other than the Transcendent, which is the Kingdom of God.


So, if everything [including the First Intellect, which is the cause of all causes] is encompassed in the Essence of God, then how this is different than from how MSMS has explained monorealism? I believe and hope you do know concept of monorealism.

Thank you for providing the reference to these articles. I will read and reflect and comment.

I would argue as well, that Ginans were composed during the dawah mission to convert. And Pir and Dais had to keep in mind the hindu terms and elements. In Paris Conference according to guidance of MHI it was advised that ginans are to be categorized into A, B, C. Category "C" are those with rich hindu elements. This category of ginans to be collected [and banned]. Now, ismaili103 mentioned about a ginan that only select few verses are recited in JK. I am not a ginan expert, but one would imagine that remaining verses could fall under category "C". Similarly, those who try and study ginan, must identify whether those ginans are of category "A" and "B" OR "C".

MHI in Paris Conference guided that concept of God must be understood in accordance to Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. When you say Ali Allah, do you believe it is in accordance to Surah Ikhlas??? You do recite Du'a 3 times a day, and as part of that Surah Ikhlas and MHI's Farman is to understand the meaning of Du'a. I hope everyone understand the meaning of Du'a, especially Surah Ikhlas, in the context of this discussion.

Dear Fayaz, my argument isn't sign of dishonesty of any kind. Rather, I could turn the argument around and pose you the same question.

Another point that we must understand is that in poetry, the terminology used is different than in other genre of writing, such as book, treaties, etc... i.e. God [Khuda] is a term that can be used other than Supreme God, for example. Rumi says about Shams, in his Diwan-e-Shams "Shams-e Mann-o Khuda-e Mann" [Literally this means "My Shams, My God"]. Should this be the real intend of Rumi, he would have been regarded as heretic by ahl-e-sunnah. But, on the contrary, Rumi is very respected and his Masnavi is even equated -- so, I have heard -- as the Qur'an [or second to Qur'an, something like that]. The same is true in Ginans and Qasidas. However, when Pirs and Hujjats write a book or treaties, then the articulations use proper terminologies.

Finally, let's assume for a second that we agree on the concept of Ali Allah: Do you think is this the proper manner to articulate to say directly Ali is Allah [or Imam is Allah]??? If you believe in this and that is the pearls and jewels of the faith, and the secrets of the treasures of God, then how come you very easily and open expose such precious and delicate treasure??? Dear Fayaz, your belief is yours alone. I have nothing to do with it. Same is my belief. It's mine and mine alone. The important matter is how you articulate it! What I consider my Imam is only to me and I keep it very personal. So should be yours and everyone else's. It is how you articulate it, and I don't agree to say Ali [Imam] is Allah.


FYI. The following is from the resolution of Paris Conference:

(i) The concept of God:
The absolute Transcendance of God to be emphasised,
and the Ismaili belief in God to be expounded in
association with the general stress on the transcendance
of god in the Koran, as exemplified particularly in the
Surat-u-Ikhlas.

(ii) The concepts of Nabuwah and Imamah:
These concepts to be explained and understood in the
general prespecctive of Gods communication to man.
the Imam to be explained as the 'Mazhar' of God,
and the relationship between God and the Imam to be
related to varying levels of inspiration and communication
from God to man.


Select few members of this site who are inclined towards Ali Allah, reject the resolution of Paris Conference which was chaired under the guidance of MHI. I am not sure what's you position? But, as Ibn-ulwaqt, this is the latest guidance of the Imam of the Time on the concept of Imam and God. Try to align your belief and understand on this.


Last edited by tret on Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:14 am, edited 2 times in total
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mazhar,

You are right we ismailis never ever performing hindu rituals.

I belive Ali Allah but I never use Vishnu , bhrama, mahesh in meditation i only recite Ali.

You have to understand these Hindu terms are for Hindus but try to understand it according to Islamic perspctive thats what Imam Sultan Mohd says.

" its duty of the missionaries to intetprate DASAVATAR as islmaic point of view"

Its not the exact wordings, I want admin to plzz provide the exact Farman.

BTW i didnot complete my HRE 2 because of my personal problem. I done my HRE 1 from karimabad REC.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,

Imam never categorize Ginans, what if I categorize Quran that all story related to moses and Jesus are for jews and christians respectively.

When imam never categorize Quran, how he can categorizr Ginans when Imam already said That " Ginans are tafseer of Quran"

Did you got my point. Imam said

" Pir sadardin wrote his Ginans from Quran "

Wow Imam said everything in just one sentence, just go through the Pir sadardin Ginans and you get to know that Pir wrote his Ginans on CONCEPT OF DASAVATAR, REINCARNATION, ALI ALLAH ETC, what its mean, it means these all concept are in QURAN thats why Pir sadardin discuss all these in his Ginans.

When Pir use Hindu words you have to undestand it according to islamic POV.

E.g

Vishnu- Allah
Bhrama- Mohammad
Mahesh- Adam
Hari- ( Literary means DUKH HARTA) means MUSHKIL KUSHA
Nirinjan- unseeable- batin
Swami, shri- hazrat
Gur- guide- pir
Nar- shah- Imam
Yamraj- rafael- hz. Israfil
Etc

Just open your thinking towards ismailism, ismailism is not only limited in Quran, qasidas , i'm a Gujurati guy but I know several qasidas to recite and even know how yo recite quran but i bet you didnot know how to recite Ginans.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
Tret,

Imam never categorize Ginans, what if I categorize Quran that all story related to moses and Jesus are for jews and christians respectively.

When imam never categorize Quran, how he can categorizr Ginans when Imam already said That " Ginans are tafseer of Quran"

Did you got my point. Imam said

" Pir sadardin wrote his Ginans from Quran "

Wow Imam said everything in just one sentence, just go through the Pir sadardin Ginans and you get to know that Pir wrote his Ginans on CONCEPT OF DASAVATAR, REINCARNATION, ALI ALLAH ETC, what its mean, it means these all concept are in QURAN thats why Pir sadardin discuss all these in his Ginans.

When Pir use Hindu words you have to undestand it according to islamic POV.

E.g

Vishnu- Allah
Bhrama- Mohammad
Mahesh- Adam
Hari- ( Literary means DUKH HARTA) means MUSHKIL KUSHA
Nirinjan- unseeable- batin
Swami, shri- hazrat
Gur- guide- pir
Nar- shah- Imam
Yamraj- rafael- hz. Israfil
Etc

Just open your thinking towards ismailism, ismailism is not only limited in Quran, qasidas , i'm a Gujurati guy but I know several qasidas to recite and even know how yo recite quran but i bet you didnot know how to recite Ginans.


Before claiming something, it's best to do a research. I gave you reference to Paris Conference of 1975, but you didn't even bother to look up. It's okay, I give you direct link, from this site.

http://ismaili.net/source/legal-documents/1975-paris-conference-minutes-rupani.pdf

Refer to page 46.


You can categorize all you want, but as Ismailis we are to obey Farmaeen and guidance of MHI.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,

I read it, ok now you have to know that all this changes happen because of pressure by ismailia associations on Imam to chage Ginans. It doesnot mean that All Ginans were banned as you mentioned. It shows that selecred verse didnot published it didnot mean Ginans are banned.

These all thing happen because of muslim and Hindu extremism in pak and india. Many and many ismailis still have copies of these Ginans including me. and its still good atleast for me to learn actuall ismailism from these Ginans.

BTW its good if you first implement it on you to OBEY IMAMS FARMAN. because in this forum many members provide you authenthic farmans of Imam on ALI is ALLAH. But you ignore them and didnot obey those farman.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,

BTW Imam catogorize those Ginans, for donot publish them it doesnit mean we cannot recite them in JKs.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can't help.Let me quote a Farman of MSMS again, " In my 70 years of Imamat I have changed Farmans 70 times." Being an Ismaili Muslim, I believe in ALLAH, RASUL, IMAM and not in vishnu, brahma and mahesar.
KALEY BHOJAN JAMIYA TENA AAJEY SHA WAKHAN REY.


Mazhar ,
You are a big changer and cheater in farmans that is not hidden any more but in the above farman you have crossed the boundary! first of all the farmans is not complete, you intentionally left it incomplete to make other readers confuse which is not cheating from you then what is it?? Imams farmans has been changed according the circumstance, situations, conditions, political condition and Jamats needs and necessity! so what?

Why don't you quoteed that farmans in which he insist us to understand 10 incarnation (avatar) as per Islamic perception ??.

MSM early farmans are different then his older age farmans but it does not make big different because in his long imamat period's many changes had been taken place in jamats and political changes, two wars had been broken out, many jamats moved one place to another, Gupti jamats were came in lights, some jamati members had been departed from Ismaili sect, India - Pakistan separated. too many changes!!


You always quote that ginans are 700 old why should we recites them ?
in your query my reply is ginans are only 700 years old; not 1425 years old like Quran!! why every Muslims still reading it??
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Before claiming something, it's best to do a research. I gave you reference to Paris Conference of 1975, but you didn't even bother to look up. It's okay, I give you direct link, from this site.

http://ismaili.net/source/legal-documents/1975-paris-conference-minutes-rupani.pdf

Refer to page 46.


The above Paris conference is not in its real format? Just wait little more till bro Admin put in its original formats.
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fayaz006



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Posts: 147

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ismaili103 one thing to remember was that my mother was studying Ginans in the 70s. It was a completely different time in Pakistan. It was a tolerant, moderate country. Today you could describe Pakistan as anything but pak, tolerant and moderate. I think because of these changing times that ITREB may have allowed only a few Ginans to be recited. However i would still contend that ITREB would not move without the Imam's guidance. Again this is pure speculation on my part but there is precedent in history of doing so.

Agakhani, what is you email address. Could you PM it to me.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Documents subsequent to the Paris Conference (Follow-up workshops) wll be available by the end of the week. These document by some other Ismailia Association shows that attempt was made by the then Ismailia Association of Pakistan who was pushing for changes in the ginans to misinterpret and mislead the jamat in regards to what Hazar Imam said.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
to misinterpret and mislead the jamat in regards to what Hazar Imam said.


Why? One would question the motive as WHY????
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reding Paris conference I think I should point out few things from it:-

-Mowlana Hazar Imam was not present int Paris Conference, his name does not shows with other delegates members who were present in this conference!!
- In Paris conference only resolutions were made and passed!
- There are no information what steps has been taken, or any step has ever been taken?
- There is no information on that the 3 categorizes in ginans ever implied or not? Many members never heard about these 3 categorizes in ginans!! means these categorizes might be never finalized, that is 100% possible!
- What other follow up actions has been taken? did any actions were taken after this conference or not? nobody knows that ? so, let wait till Admin put it here and then after we can discuss more.


Last edited by agakhani on Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total
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tret



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read PREFACE, in the first paragraph.
This was chaired by MHI and all resolutions were approved by MHI. So, now admin comes up with his version?


Quote:

"...Molana Hazar Imam Shah Karim Al-Hussaini chaired the Conference, and all the resolutions contained herein are based on guidance received from, and as finally approved by, Mowlana Hazar Imam."
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,
Thanks for correcting me I didn't read preface of the conference but jumped directly on the delegates named and ginans.
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tret



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Tret,
Thanks for correcting me I didn't read preface of the conference but jumped directly on the delegates named and ginans.


No problem.
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tret



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
all this changes happen because of pressure by ismailia associations on Imam to chage Ginans


I really would not like to believe in this assertion. After all who is ismailia association, to pressure the Imam of the Time?

Do you see your faith, on the one hand you regard to the Imam of the time as God, and on the other hand you imply that Ismailia association pressure the Imam?

Regardless of that, these are matters of faith, and has nothing to do with political issues. Imam knows best how to interpret the faith for Murid. You can speculate all you want, but at the end of the day, it's the Imam of the Time who interpret our faith. Not you. Not me. Not Admin.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,

I think you know what pressure i'm talking about. Mowla always work for the benefit of his jamat, thats why Imam approved this , it doesnot mean that Imam want changed in Faith its the coward Members of jamat wants that , i wrote it alredy jamat of indo- pak has always fear of extremist groups. Thats why jamat of both countries always want changes accepted to MULLAS and PANDITS.
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ismaili103



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,

I can see still many Jamati members in karachi recite Ali sahi Allah in KALIMA.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
Read PREFACE, in the first paragraph.
This was chaired by MHI and all resolutions were approved by MHI. So, now admin comes up with his version?



The resolutions are not signed by Hazar Imam. Rupani the secretary (Not Hazar Imam's secretary) is the one who typed signed it and he is known to be most unreliable in those matters. So yes there may be some discrepency with what Hazar Imam said and in fact there is.


Last edited by Admin on Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
Tret,

I can see still many Jamati members in karachi recite Ali sahi Allah in KALIMA.


yes, I have also withnessed this during my trips to Pakistan and in other countries.

There are Haqiqatis all over the world. Imam Sultan Mohamad Shah said there are Murids everywhere except in Hell icon_wink.gif
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Admin"][quote="tret"]Read PREFACE, in the first paragraph.
This was chaired by MHI and all resolutions were approved by MHI. So, now admin comes up with his version?


Quote:


The resolutions are not signed by Hazar Imam. Rupani the secretary (Not Hazar Imam's secretary) is the one who typed signed it and he is known to be most unreliable in those matters. So yes there may be some discrepency with what Hazar Imam said and in fact there is.



I honestly don't know that. It is said that the conferenced was chaired and the resolutions were approved by MHI. So, how would one conclude.

Do you actually know for fact that there's dependencies or it's just speculations, due to past history of that individual?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The minutes are not signed by Hazar Imam. Hazar Imam approved resolutions submited at the Conference and this secretary typed the minutes which he himself signed, not his boss, nor Hazar Imam. If the minutes were signed by Hazar Imam, it would be different.

What does that tell you? Hazar Imam had approved resolutions but not the minutes so inaccuracy is there for few things. That is not difficult to understand.

the proper thread to discuss this is under Paris Conference 1975, not in this thread.
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mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1098


Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:53 am Post subject:

mazhar wrote:

Dear Tret,
You quoted Syedina Nasir Khusraw, there fore I was looking for the book Wajh i Din. I read the chapter 28 on Zakat. Nasir Khusraw has mentioned 4 types of Zakat.
SADAKA which is given at time of repentance and this is haraam for Prophet and his progeny as he wtote. USHR which is 1/10, is a land revenue on agriculture products and fruits. KHUMS is related to booty from wars and on minerals from under ground earth or mountains in solid or liquid forms. ZAKAT which is 2.5% on earnings and nisab. At time of Prophet Muhammad the zakat was used for needy, orphans,widows, handicaped soldiers/warriors, government expences and so on. But there is no historical evidence that Prophet Muhammad or Mowla Ali personally collected 10% or Dah-yak for themselves. Nasir Khusraw has used the term Dah-yak as Ushr. Also in Pir Pandiyat i Jawanmardi Dah-yak is used in connection to Imam, but there is no mention of any share for pirs in both books. In ginanic literature of sub continent there is mentiond of dasoond or Dah-yak for Imam and beside that 2.5% share ( chaliswun) for pirs. I wander pir Sadruddin and pir Hasan Kabiruddin did not collected 2.5% according to history for themselves. They worked hard to earn their livelyhood to raised their families.


Look under chapter 47 "Andar Haqq-e Wajibaat":

Please note in the Aya 73:30 of the Qur'an, 3 elements are mentioned together in the same ayah. This is also significant. a) salat, b) zakat, and c) mall-e-wajibaat. According to Ismailis, this last element is dah-yakk [Dasoond]. Read the full explanation.

Imams don't collect this mal-e-wajibaat for their personal use. This is well spent by the office of Imamate for the betterment of humanity and improving quality of lives. We can witness it today, through the work of AKDN; however, even in the past Imam used this to help the Jama'at according to their time.

REPLY TO TRET,

With ref. to your above post," Andar Haqq e Wajibat" is not under the chapter 47, but is chapter 48. In this chapter Nasir Khusraw has quoted from surah Muzzammil, ayah
# 20. It is a long ayah, but Nasir Khusraw has mentioned a part of it." WA AQIMUS SALATA WA AATUZ ZAQATA WA AQRIDHULLAH QARDHAN HASANAH. 73/20."
Meaning; And estabilish salat ( prayer ), and give zakat ( charity ) and loan to Allah, a beautiful loan.
In the begining of the chapter, he wrote," A person has to obey 3 types of WAJIBS ( obligations ). First wajib is on daily basis, like 5 times salat ( namaz ), 2nd wajib is on yearly basis, like zakat or fasting ( in Ramadhan ) and 3rd wajib is, once in life time, like hajj and haqq e wajibat or mall e wajibat.
Tret in my humble opinion there is difference between mall e wajibat and qardh e hasanah. For mall e wajibat you mentioned DAH YAK. Nasir Khusraw wrote mall e wajibat is supposed to be paid once in life time. ( This idea of once in life time is mentioned in ginanic literature also as 'SIRBANDHI' ) Where as DAH YAK 1/10 in Ismailism is compulsory on monthly basis from Halal earnings. Now for' QARDH E HASANAH', Allah is asking for loan for betterment of soul and its reward is many fold. A muslim can give as much as possible as many times on yearly basis and collect reward in aakhirat. Hence there is difference in Nasir Khusraw's assertion of mall e wajibat on yearly basis and Ismaili Khoja dasond practice. I agree with you that Imam do not collect dah yak for personal use but that is well spent by the office of Imamat for the betterment of murids and humanity.
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tret



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mazhar,

I have the original Wajh-i-din in Persian text. Chapter 48 is about Ahl-e-kitab and its tah'wil. Chapter 47 actually is about "Andar Haqq-e Wajibaat". In Chapter 48, there's no mention of Zakat or Mal-e-Wajibaat. I believe you have read it under chapter 47. But, regardless of which chapter, I agree with what you have explained, in your latest reply.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19619

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
MHI in Paris Conference guided that concept of God must be understood in accordance to Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. When you say Ali Allah, do you believe it is in accordance to Surah Ikhlas??? You do recite Du'a 3 times a day, and as part of that Surah Ikhlas and MHI's Farman is to understand the meaning of Du'a. I hope everyone understand the meaning of Du'a, especially Surah Ikhlas, in the context of this discussion.
There is no issue with the statement. God is the Essence (Absolute Transcendant). Imam is the Mazhar of God (Essence or Absolute Transcendant) or Mazhar -i-dhat-Illahi.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ya ali madad:
same thing started all over again.
our religious practice n faith is all there to see n do in JK.

the word mazhar has four more questions/lines written along with.
please post those lines word by word n answer it.
sure iklas was for Christianity n other religion believing multiple god heads.
I have explained it twice.
we pray more to ALI ALI N ALI in JK N NOT MUCH TO D TIME pass n his pen ultimate name of ALI+lah=Allah.

I acknowledge all the ginans n waje e din,etc BUT only accept waht is present in our syllabus for regular reading n recitation in JK .
so I may not accept many of its content which are banned/suspended/removed for reading at jamati level.
if a ginan/waje e din is there as a data bank of private website or in library of an institute ,it does alter my conviction.80% is clash of clever ignorant.

what imam sat in farmans in mosr important n not what he say n acknowledge in conferences n seminar n speeches.
this way one become zahiri donkey aiming at grass at foot level n not the universe thru ibadaat.
at marfat no rubbish data, blah, blah is needed, your acts n intents of (pure haqiqti conviction is the base) ibaadat, khidmat n aashique is needed.

If one attend morning JK N hears farmans every alternate farman uses the word Allah or Imam that one should come closer.
if one collate all the farmans then MHI is claiming to be also his time pass n brand name of Allah.
tret is a fine haqiaqti trying to show smartness by observing unwarranted taqiya .
lot of doctrines can a person from strong haqiqati to average haqiqati instead moving upwards.
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mazhar



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin,



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 2945


Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:19 pm Post subject:

Mazhar,

You have invented Farmans in the past and now you have misquoted a farman saying do not follow 9 Avatars but you have cropped the Farman and hide that this is not the end of the Farman as it continues to say follow the 10th Avatar.

Now this is the kind of manipulation and fraud you are conducting on this website hoping people are as uneducated as you think they are and that your manipulations will not be discovered. Now here is a challenge: try once more to manipulate Farmans and it will be my pleasure to ban you from this Forum.

Fraudsters and forgers are not welcome here. You are on Notice!



REPLY TO ADMIN,


I do not invent the Farmans. When I quoted the 313 momins Farman, there was noise on this site that I invented the Farman. Later it was proved I quoted correct Farman, as 313 momin Farman is mentioned in KALAM E IMAM E MUBIN. You are a well informed person, did I quoted this Farman wrong, where MSMS said," In my 70 years of Imamat, I changed farman 70 times". He also said," I have made many changes in Farmans and am still altering them according to the times." He also said," It is the same Prophet who advises his followers ever to remain IBNUL WAQAT." When I quoted 1964 Farman made at Ismailia Association, Karachi regarding ALIULLAH, there was noise again. I wrote that particular Farman is classified and any one can check with ITREB, because I have hard copy of that, no one was ready to believe me.
You have objection about my quote of 9 AVTARS. Again this Farman exists in KALAM E IMAM E MUBIN. I quoted," 9 Avtar chhor do, means leave 9 Avtars or do not follow 9 Avtars." These are words of MSMS. In the begining of paragraph, Imam said," Hindu ki batein Ilm me parhtey ho ye wajib nahi." What this sentence means.
I think we have to discuss that particular paragraph of Farman. IF YOU WANT WE CAN OPEN A NEW THREAD.

MAESTRO ESTE NO JUSTO. NO JUSTO, NO PAZ.
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