first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: But I could not find your formula that
HUJJATULLAH= ALLAH, instead there was 'HUJJATULLAH IS PROOF OF GOD'.
When the word OF is used in between 2 comparisons means we are talking of 2 entities...
On page 8 it is stated: "The Imam is the 'Hujjat' or 'Proof of God', and it is for this reason that some Imams have said. "What is said about God refers also to us."
A normal person with intellect would interpret the above statement to imply: HUJJATULLAH= ALLAH!
shivaathervedi wrote: By the way let me ask you; Is Noor can be considered substance? A body can be.
Yes, Noor is the significant aspect of Imamat and sometimes it is also referred to as substance or essence of Imamat. Just google the word substance.
shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote," a book is a book whether it is published or not...."! My small intellect tells me when book is not published it is called manuscript. It shows Noorun ala Noor is not published and is not in a book form, just articles written with personal ideology. There are thousands of such scripts and articles written by Ismailis. There are many contradictory points in Noorun ala Noor. These personal writings are not recommended by ITREB..
It is in a book form with introduction, contents, appendix etc. Just click here:
The Noor En Allah Noor - in PDF
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

This book was presented to MHI and he accepted it and a copy is at the IIS. It contains a lot of information about our tradition which one would not find anywhere else.
shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote," Esoteric material is not always published, just like the KIZ farman book." But KIZ is any how in book form and published like KIM. I have seen KIZ in hands of a non Ismaili.
KIZ is printed in a book form but you cannot say it is published as no one is the publisher. The non-Ismaili is a lucky one! Although he may not benefit from it if he does not recognise the authority of the Imam and hence may think of it like any other material.
You wrote," A normal person with intellect would interpret the above statement to imply; HUJJATULLAH=ALLAH." I shall go opposite to your statement that " An abnormal person with -10 IQ may interpret the above statement. Your quote of Imam Ja'far Sadiq is not complete, he said," Through us he is recognized and through us he is worshiped." Please pay attention to word 'THROUGH'. Imam also said, " We are gates to Allah." Again pay attention to word 'GATES', Imam is talking about higher entity.
Sun, Moon, Stars, Mountains, Seas, Rivers, clouds, Rain, Trees, Animals, Birds, Human beings, you and me are all proof of Allah.

The word SUBSTANCE has many meanings. Matter, Density, Body, Gist, and Essence. How you will define essence of Noor. Is it like essence of Rose, Jasmine, Tulip and so on. But the Vedic Satpunthi term NIRIJIN is above essence.
As you wrote," A copy of Noorun ala Noor is at IIS. My question is why IIS has not published it if that is a such valuable book to understand Dharma.
IIS keep publishing all kind of books why not this?
You wrote, a copy of it was presented to Imam; Did Imam read that book or just pass it on to IIS. Imam is Karim, he is Badshah, he encourages his followers in their endeavors. MSMS accepted history book 'Tarikh Imam e Mubin', he also accepted 'Ever Living Guide', Shah Karim accepted Brushiski Ginan book.
You wrote, KIZ has no publisher!! Was KIZ 'G E' published ' KHUD BA KHUD' or some jinni published it. Ismaili world knows," BAHUT CHARCHA HUA", by the way it is marked on the back page ' PRINTED IN CANADA'.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote:Imam is Rahmat but that is not trickling down to rest of Muslims. May be they are not followers therefore neglected. Why Imam has not taken keen interest in solving Muslim world's burning problems by using his diplomatic efficiency and influence like MSMS did? Is Rahmat limited?
The Imam is always working for humanity. All the AKDN work is geared towards that end. MHI has always been willing to help other Muslims, but they have to recognise and approach him. He cannot impose himself if they don't want him!

Below is an excerpt from an interview:

Q. Between your status as a spiritual leader and the fact that you are a businessman, isn't there a political ambition which lurks in your mind - especially that both your father and grandfather performed political roles in the course of their lives?

A. The role entrusted to me does not, in the world of today, permit to cherish any political ambitions. This was appropriate and acceptable fifty years ago: my grandfather was President of the League of Nations, my father was Ambassador to the United Nations and my uncle was the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. The roles of those members of my family were all international roles in the field of politics. They did not serve a specific country; they served a cause with international dimensions. Therefore any political ambition on my part must be in an international and not in a national framework.

Q. Are you prepared to undertake such a role?

A. I have not thought of that nor has there been such an offer.

Q. If you are called upon to undertake an international role, do you think you are qualified for it?

A. I think I am: if it is not a question of a permanent job; if there is a cause to be served or if it is something where I feel I can contribute anything of value, then I would accept the invitation.

Q. Let us assume you are called upon to play the role of international mediator between two Islamic states which have been at war for years.

A. Yes. Yes. If these two Islamic states said they wanted an independent international Muslim mediator with high credibility to help them reach a negotiated settlement, that they did not want to refer the matter to any other institution or organisation, then I would consider the matter and see whether or not I have the qualifications to undertake that role. If I find out that I am not qualified I will decline the offer with regret. In any case I shall not accept a permanent international role.

http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/i861220.html
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote:You wrote," A normal person with intellect would interpret the above statement to imply; HUJJATULLAH=ALLAH." I shall go opposite to your statement that " An abnormal person with -10 IQ may interpret the above statement. Your quote of Imam Ja'far Sadiq is not complete, he said," Through us he is recognized and through us he is worshiped." Please pay attention to word 'THROUGH'. Imam also said, " We are gates to Allah." Again pay attention to word 'GATES', Imam is talking about higher entity.
Sun, Moon, Stars, Mountains, Seas, Rivers, clouds, Rain, Trees, Animals, Birds, Human beings, you and me are all proof of Allah..
As I said you do not have intellect. We were talking about Hujjat and now you are bringing another statement which is not even part of the reference! Imam Ja'far is not even mentioned on pages 7 & 8. As has been discussed on numerous occasions the Imam is both the Shah and the Pir. What you are alluding to is his role as the wasila which is Piratan.
shivaathervedi wrote: As you wrote," A copy of Noorun ala Noor is at IIS. My question is why IIS has not published it if that is a such valuable book to understand Dharma.
IIS keep publishing all kind of books why not this?.
IIS has its own priorities and criteria for publishing material.
shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote, a copy of it was presented to Imam; Did Imam read that book or just pass it on to IIS. Imam is Karim, he is Badshah, he encourages his followers in their endeavors. MSMS accepted history book 'Tarikh Imam e Mubin', he also accepted 'Ever Living Guide', Shah Karim accepted Brushiski Ginan book..
The Imam does not need to read the book to know it's contents. He is not obliged to accept everything presented to him.
shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote, KIZ has no publisher!! Was KIZ 'G E' published ' KHUD BA KHUD' or some jinni published it. Ismaili world knows," BAHUT CHARCHA HUA", by the way it is marked on the back page ' PRINTED IN CANADA'.
There is a difference between being published and printed. Printing for selective distribution is not the same as publishing for wider sale and circulation.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:Imam is Rahmat but that is not trickling down to rest of Muslims. May be they are not followers therefore neglected. Why Imam has not taken keen interest in solving Muslim world's burning problems by using his diplomatic efficiency and influence like MSMS did? Is Rahmat limited?
The Imam is always working for humanity. All the AKDN work is geared towards that end. MHI has always been willing to help other Muslims, but they have to recognise and approach him. He cannot impose himself if they don't want him!

Below is an excerpt from an interview:

Q. Between your status as a spiritual leader and the fact that you are a businessman, isn't there a political ambition which lurks in your mind - especially that both your father and grandfather performed political roles in the course of their lives?

A. The role entrusted to me does not, in the world of today, permit to cherish any political ambitions. This was appropriate and acceptable fifty years ago: my grandfather was President of the League of Nations, my father was Ambassador to the United Nations and my uncle was the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees. The roles of those members of my family were all international roles in the field of politics. They did not serve a specific country; they served a cause with international dimensions. Therefore any political ambition on my part must be in an international and not in a national framework.

Q. Are you prepared to undertake such a role?

A. I have not thought of that nor has there been such an offer.

Q. If you are called upon to undertake an international role, do you think you are qualified for it?

A. I think I am: if it is not a question of a permanent job; if there is a cause to be served or if it is something where I feel I can contribute anything of value, then I would accept the invitation.

Q. Let us assume you are called upon to play the role of international mediator between two Islamic states which have been at war for years.

A. Yes. Yes. If these two Islamic states said they wanted an independent international Muslim mediator with high credibility to help them reach a negotiated settlement, that they did not want to refer the matter to any other institution or organisation, then I would consider the matter and see whether or not I have the qualifications to undertake that role. If I find out that I am not qualified I will decline the offer with regret. In any case I shall not accept a permanent international role.

http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/i861220.html

I appreciate Imam's work for humanity and for the uplift of quality of life of poor masses. But my question was about killings of mostly Muslims including children, women, and elderly and disputes in between Muslim countries. In past 15 years around one million Muslims have been killed, Imam in my opinion should have been active in stopping bloodshed, at least he should have attempted and tried his best, but we saw on action. Being as a God ( according to Sutpunthi concept ) there should have been some show of Rahmat for Muslims generally.
You mentioned the 1986 interview of Imam by AL MOSTAKBAL. After reading interview I felt Imam's unwillingness to become a party unless invited. Let me quote few answers from interview;
Any political ambition on my part must be an international and not in national frame work.
If I find out that I am not qualified I will decline the offer with regret.
I have not thought of that nor has there been any such an offer.
One interesting answer which I found in interview is," God has favoured me with the blessing of Islam." Which God?
I know your answer in advance; Oh, this interview was made for general public and other Muslims and not for Ismailis!!
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:You wrote," A normal person with intellect would interpret the above statement to imply; HUJJATULLAH=ALLAH." I shall go opposite to your statement that " An abnormal person with -10 IQ may interpret the above statement. Your quote of Imam Ja'far Sadiq is not complete, he said," Through us he is recognized and through us he is worshiped." Please pay attention to word 'THROUGH'. Imam also said, " We are gates to Allah." Again pay attention to word 'GATES', Imam is talking about higher entity.
Sun, Moon, Stars, Mountains, Seas, Rivers, clouds, Rain, Trees, Animals, Birds, Human beings, you and me are all proof of Allah..
As I said you do not have intellect. We were talking about Hujjat and now you are bringing another statement which is not even part of the reference! Imam Ja'far is not even mentioned on pages 7 & 8. As has been discussed on numerous occasions the Imam is both the Shah and the Pir. What you are alluding to is his role as the wasila which is Piratan.
shivaathervedi wrote: As you wrote," A copy of Noorun ala Noor is at IIS. My question is why IIS has not published it if that is a such valuable book to understand Dharma.
IIS keep publishing all kind of books why not this?.
IIS has its own priorities and criteria for publishing material.
shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote, a copy of it was presented to Imam; Did Imam read that book or just pass it on to IIS. Imam is Karim, he is Badshah, he encourages his followers in their endeavors. MSMS accepted history book 'Tarikh Imam e Mubin', he also accepted 'Ever Living Guide', Shah Karim accepted Brushiski Ginan book..
The Imam does not need to read the book to know it's contents. He is not obliged to accept everything presented to him.
shivaathervedi wrote: You wrote, KIZ has no publisher!! Was KIZ 'G E' published ' KHUD BA KHUD' or some jinni published it. Ismaili world knows," BAHUT CHARCHA HUA", by the way it is marked on the back page ' PRINTED IN CANADA'.
There is a difference between being published and printed. Printing for selective distribution is not the same as publishing for wider sale and circulation.
Though I have no intellect according to you, but still I am giving you hard time and making you upset to evaporate your intellect. I WRITE WHAT IS RIGHT IN ISMAILI LITERATURE.
In Noorun ala Noor, the complete hadith of Imam Ja'far was not mentioned, just a part to serve the purpose of writer. What I mentioned remaing part is well known in Shia and Ismaili circles. This hadith of Imam Ja'far in mentioned in Ismaili literature which I corrected. No, I am not alluding what you wrote, But according to Du'a Imam is wasila, Zariah, intercessor. In Du'a word 'BI HAQQ' is an open proof. BI HAQQ is used 5 times in Du'a in related to A'imah, Rusul, Prophet Muhammad, Mowla Ali, all Imams, Pujtan paak and Hazar Imam.
IIS may has own priorities, but material presented in that book was not appropriate of mentioning frequent terms of Hindu mythology which were banned after 1969 Ginan conference. AS we see now a days only limited Ginans are recited in JKs.
Some group did printed and published KIZ and was distributed. Play of words won't serve the purpose of hiding the fact.
By the way a question, the writer of Noorun ala Noor is Rai shamsuddin Bande Ali, Is this the same person Mr. Shams B who some times post on Heritage? Is he a missionary?
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Post by Admin »

Rai Shamshu Bandali was a most respected and senior missionary. He died few years back. What is your purpose in trying to insult his memory? He has done more in one life than what you will be able to achieve in 100 lives. Why do you always feel the urge of displaying your ignorance?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: In past 15 years around one million Muslims have been killed, Imam in my opinion should have been active in stopping bloodshed, at least he should have attempted and tried his best, but we saw on action. Being as a God ( according to Sutpunthi concept ) there should have been some show of Rahmat for Muslims generally.!!
That is exactly what he has been doing - building strong civil society institutions that can serve as models for social stability and which can underwrite political instability:

"Our purpose is to learn, to understand and to explain, to find the new paths that would also be the age-old ways; to identify, in everything surrounding us and in everything being created around us, the forms, the mental attitudes, the exact techniques and the hopes that, on one hand, enable us to define ourselves and, on the other hand, offer us models to be adopted elsewhere."

http://ismaili.net/speech/s821102.html
shivaathervedi wrote: You mentioned the 1986 interview of Imam by AL MOSTAKBAL. After reading interview I felt Imam's unwillingness to become a party unless invited.!!
On what basis would the Imam involve himself otherwise. Most Mulsims don't recognise him as a leader, some don't even consider him a Muslim!
shivaathervedi wrote: I know your answer in advance; Oh, this interview was made for general public and other Muslims and not for Ismailis!!
If you know the answer, there is no need to keep repeating the question!
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: Though I have no intellect according to you, but still I am giving you hard time and making you upset to evaporate your intellect. I WRITE WHAT IS RIGHT IN ISMAILI LITERATURE.
In Noorun ala Noor, the complete hadith of Imam Ja'far was not mentioned, just a part to serve the purpose of writer. What I mentioned remaing part is well known in Shia and Ismaili circles. This hadith of Imam Ja'far in mentioned in Ismaili literature which I corrected. No, I am not alluding what you wrote, But according to Du'a Imam is wasila, Zariah, intercessor. In Du'a word 'BI HAQQ' is an open proof. BI HAQQ is used 5 times in Du'a in related to A'imah, Rusul, Prophet Muhammad, Mowla Ali, all Imams, Pujtan paak and Hazar Imam.?
As I have stated all the time, Imam is both the wasila (Pir) and the Mazhar (Imam). So you can choose whatever accords to your understanding. In the 5th part of the Dua we also recite Ya Imame Zaman Ya mowlana anta quwwati wa anta sanadi...which would equate the Imam to the source of strength and reliance and who is everpresent...
shivaathervedi wrote: IIS may has own priorities, but material presented in that book was not appropriate of mentioning frequent terms of Hindu mythology which were banned after 1969 Ginan conference. AS we see now a days only limited Ginans are recited in JKs.
There has been no ban for any Ginan recitations as far as I know in Canada. MSMS made the following statement:

"Some part of Himdoo Mythology in our teaching has a great deal of allegorical value and must be kept up. (Mission Conference, Dar es Salaam, July 1945)
shivaathervedi wrote: Some group did printed and published KIZ and was distributed. Play of words won't serve the purpose of hiding the fact.
It is not just a play of words. To publish something can have legal implications which would not be applicable for printing only.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote:You mentioned the 1986 interview of Imam by AL MOSTAKBAL. After reading interview..
If you read the whole interview, at the end it is stated:

With the pronunciation of the worlds In'Sha'allah, it was time for this long dialogue to take another direction and to go off the record. Afterwards, when I was about to take leave of the Aga Khan at the doorstep of Aiglemont in the midst of that forest of tall trees, I said to His Highness: while I appreciate the fact that you are a cautious man, I have also discovered that you are at the same time an optimistic man. How can you achieve a consensus of opinion in that nation even if it were a consensus on wisdom or a consensus on aspiration and hope?

The Aga Khan laughed while extending his hand towards mine and said: "Allah has power over all things".

It began to rain. It was a cold winter day. I felt warm.

Think about it, how did he feel warm in a cold winter day? My answer is that he held the hand of God!!
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Post by nuseri »

To Kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.

If this cursed living creature who is rattling from over a year just understands even 1% of MHI. he would be graced again to consider himself as soul of a human being.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

The Aga Khan laughed while extending his hand towards mine and said: "Allah has power over all things".
He did not say " I have power over all things"
Or
I am God and I have power over all things

How interviewer felt after interviews is your opinion wether he held gods hand, not his words
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

K Bhai
ASAK

It is us how we perceive religious leaders. I would have highlited Allah has power over all things"
If MHI was God he would have predicted and eliminated lot of difficulties faced by him, his own family and his Murids.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote:[How interviewer felt after interviews is your opinion wether he held gods hand, not his words
He has described exactly how he felt, it is not my opinion. He felt warm in a cold winter day. My opinion is only the reason behind what he felt.

Yes the perception of the Imam by his murids is different than that of the others. He want reveal the Batini aspect in an open manner!

Trials and tribulations are facts of life. No one is excempt from them. Even the Imams, in fact they have a greater burden do bear due to their priviledged position.
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Post by zznoor »


Trials and tribulations are facts of life. No one is excempt from them. Even the Imams, in fact they have a greater burden do bear due to their priviledged position.
God has no trials and tribulations
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Post by zznoor »

He has described exactly how he felt, it is not my opinion. He felt warm in a cold winter day. My opinion is only the reason behind what he felt.
May be he was pleased with good interview. One feels good, hormone kick in and you feel warm. If you are disappointed then you feel otherwise
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Admin wrote:Rai Shamshu Bandali was a most respected and senior missionary. He died few years back. What is your purpose in trying to insult his memory? He has done more in one life than what you will be able to achieve in 100 lives. Why do you always feel the urge of displaying your ignorance?
I just wanted verification when I saw the name of the writer of Noorun ala Noor.
I found resemblance in the names of late missionary Shamsuddin Bande Ali with Mr. Shams B. It was a simple question but you started rattling as usual.
I do not insult any one until I am insulted by other party. It is a literary discussion and not a fist fight.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

nuseri wrote:To Kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.

If this cursed living creature who is rattling from over a year just understands even 1% of MHI. he would be graced again to consider himself as soul of a human being.
Shiva's snake has again moving in your frozen brain. Apni ghott tou nasho thai.
You even don't recite Du'a or understand its meaning given by Imam. Learn the meaning of Du'a and that will stop you from rattling.
In beginning of second part of Du'a we THE ISMAILIS recite;
OBEY ALLAH
OBEY RASUL
OBEY ULIL AMR, IMAM OF THE TIME.
AM I WRONG?
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: In past 15 years around one million Muslims have been killed, Imam in my opinion should have been active in stopping bloodshed, at least he should have attempted and tried his best, but we saw on action. Being as a God ( according to Sutpunthi concept ) there should have been some show of Rahmat for Muslims generally.!!
That is exactly what he has been doing - building strong civil society institutions that can serve as models for social stability and which can underwrite political instability:

"Our purpose is to learn, to understand and to explain, to find the new paths that would also be the age-old ways; to identify, in everything surrounding us and in everything being created around us, the forms, the mental attitudes, the exact techniques and the hopes that, on one hand, enable us to define ourselves and, on the other hand, offer us models to be adopted elsewhere."

http://ismaili.net/speech/s821102.html
shivaathervedi wrote: You mentioned the 1986 interview of Imam by AL MOSTAKBAL. After reading interview I felt Imam's unwillingness to become a party unless invited.!!
On what basis would the Imam involve himself otherwise. Most Mulsims don't recognise him as a leader, some don't even consider him a Muslim!
shivaathervedi wrote: I know your answer in advance; Oh, this interview was made for general public and other Muslims and not for Ismailis!!
If you know the answer, there is no need to keep repeating the question!
You wrote," He is building strong civil society institutions that can serve as models for social stability..."
Till these models evolve for social and political stability in coming years 10/20 millions more Muslims will be perished.
You wrote," Most Muslims do not recognize him as a leader, some don't consider him a Muslim."
You are wrong, he is an established leader on world leaders forum. Reply for your second part of post that he is even not consider as a Muslim; just imagine then how he should be considered as God of universe. Beside general public that he is a Muslim simultaneously he is also educating his followers on this topic as some consider him God. He is Imam.
When in any interview or speech when Imam declares himself as a Muslim, it has been your habit to write ' this statement is for public or this statement is as a Pir. So that was just a reminder.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:You mentioned the 1986 interview of Imam by AL MOSTAKBAL. After reading interview..
If you read the whole interview, at the end it is stated:

With the pronunciation of the worlds In'Sha'allah, it was time for this long dialogue to take another direction and to go off the record. Afterwards, when I was about to take leave of the Aga Khan at the doorstep of Aiglemont in the midst of that forest of tall trees, I said to His Highness: while I appreciate the fact that you are a cautious man, I have also discovered that you are at the same time an optimistic man. How can you achieve a consensus of opinion in that nation even if it were a consensus on wisdom or a consensus on aspiration and hope?

The Aga Khan laughed while extending his hand towards mine and said: "Allah has power over all things".

It began to rain. It was a cold winter day. I felt warm.

Think about it, how did he feel warm in a cold winter day? My answer is that he held the hand of God!!
He believes what he said," ALLAH HAS POWER OVER ALL THINGS."
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: Though I have no intellect according to you, but still I am giving you hard time and making you upset to evaporate your intellect. I WRITE WHAT IS RIGHT IN ISMAILI LITERATURE.
In Noorun ala Noor, the complete hadith of Imam Ja'far was not mentioned, just a part to serve the purpose of writer. What I mentioned remaing part is well known in Shia and Ismaili circles. This hadith of Imam Ja'far in mentioned in Ismaili literature which I corrected. No, I am not alluding what you wrote, But according to Du'a Imam is wasila, Zariah, intercessor. In Du'a word 'BI HAQQ' is an open proof. BI HAQQ is used 5 times in Du'a in related to A'imah, Rusul, Prophet Muhammad, Mowla Ali, all Imams, Pujtan paak and Hazar Imam.?
As I have stated all the time, Imam is both the wasila (Pir) and the Mazhar (Imam). So you can choose whatever accords to your understanding. In the 5th part of the Dua we also recite Ya Imame Zaman Ya mowlana anta quwwati wa anta sanadi...which would equate the Imam to the source of strength and reliance and who is everpresent...
shivaathervedi wrote: IIS may has own priorities, but material presented in that book was not appropriate of mentioning frequent terms of Hindu mythology which were banned after 1969 Ginan conference. AS we see now a days only limited Ginans are recited in JKs.
There has been no ban for any Ginan recitations as far as I know in Canada. MSMS made the following statement:

"Some part of Himdoo Mythology in our teaching has a great deal of allegorical value and must be kept up. (Mission Conference, Dar es Salaam, July 1945)
shivaathervedi wrote: Some group did printed and published KIZ and was distributed. Play of words won't serve the purpose of hiding the fact.
It is not just a play of words. To publish something can have legal implications which would not be applicable for printing only.
IMAM IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH AS WELL AS WASILA OR INTERCESSOR TO HIM.
Please read also the the beginning ayat of Quran starting 5th part of Du'a; YA AYUHALLAZINA AAMANU LA TAKHUNULLAH WA RASUL, AND FOLLOWING DU'AYA KALIMAAT, RABBANAGIR LANA, ZUNUBAZNA.......
You give reference of 1945 mission conference but I gave you reference of 1969 Ginan conference at time of Shah Karim as Imam. If Canadian jamait is not following Hidayat of Imam it is their choice to disobey Imam.
There are and were Ismailis publishing/printing religious books in India and Pakistan. I did not see any legal implications for them from ITREB. Always some one is behind printing and publications.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote:
God has no trials and tribulations
When God is manifest in human form, he goes through the same trials amd tribulations as other humans. However there is a big difference. In the case of the Mazhara/Avtaars, they are not effected by them.

There is a verse of the Ginan: Kal pat jal pat which states:

NIs jal hove kuchh kaal na aave; meaning - When one is as pure as water he is not influenced by time.

According to Ismailism the Imams are the purest and hence the vagaries of time have no effect upon them, hence they have no trials and tribulations as you have said.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote: May be he was pleased with good interview. One feels good, hormone kick in and you feel warm. If you are disappointed then you feel otherwise
You are of course entitled to your opinion. However it is very unsual for a jouranlist to mention such a feeling from an interview. There was nothing in the interview that would raise the feelings to that level. It had to be the handshake!
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote:You wrote," He is building strong civil society institutions that can serve as models for social stability..."
Till these models evolve for social and political stability in coming years 10/20 millions more Muslims will be perished..
In the short term there will be deaths, but that is part of history. There have always been war deaths, mass killings diseases etc. The is the nature of history.
You wrote," Most Muslims do not recognize him as a leader, some don't consider him a Muslim."
shivaathervedi wrote: You are wrong, he is an established leader on world leaders forum. Reply for your second part of post that he is even not consider as a Muslim; just imagine then how he should be considered as God of universe. Beside general public that he is a Muslim simultaneously he is also educating his followers on this topic as some consider him God. He is Imam..
I remember you mentioning in one of your posts that in Pakistan he is not considered as a Muslim. What you changed your mind. How many Muslims know about the leaders forum? He is not seeking to be considered as the God of the Universe. Within his community of course he is God but that is not true for others and will never be so.
shivaathervedi wrote: When in any interview or speech when Imam declares himself as a Muslim, it has been your habit to write ' this statement is for public or this statement is as a Pir. So that was just a reminder.
I don't need that reminder neither do you nor others in this forum.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote:[
You give reference of 1945 mission conference but I gave you reference of 1969 Ginan conference at time of Shah Karim as Imam.
Where is the documented reference? You just imagined there was one.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:[
You give reference of 1945 mission conference but I gave you reference of 1969 Ginan conference at time of Shah Karim as Imam.
Where is the documented reference? You just imagined there was one.
Your are well aware that there was ginan conference in 1969 prior to 1975 Paris conference in which ginans were categorized. There has been discussion on this forum.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:You wrote," He is building strong civil society institutions that can serve as models for social stability..."
Till these models evolve for social and political stability in coming years 10/20 millions more Muslims will be perished..
In the short term there will be deaths, but that is part of history. There have always been war deaths, mass killings diseases etc. The is the nature of history.
You wrote," Most Muslims do not recognize him as a leader, some don't consider him a Muslim."
shivaathervedi wrote: You are wrong, he is an established leader on world leaders forum. Reply for your second part of post that he is even not consider as a Muslim; just imagine then how he should be considered as God of universe. Beside general public that he is a Muslim simultaneously he is also educating his followers on this topic as some consider him God. He is Imam..
I remember you mentioning in one of your posts that in Pakistan he is not considered as a Muslim. What you changed your mind. How many Muslims know about the leaders forum? He is not seeking to be considered as the God of the Universe. Within his community of course he is God but that is not true for others and will never be so.
shivaathervedi wrote: When in any interview or speech when Imam declares himself as a Muslim, it has been your habit to write ' this statement is for public or this statement is as a Pir. So that was just a reminder.
I don't need that reminder neither do you nor others in this forum.

You twisted my statement. I negate your opinion. Let me once again write my quote what I answered you," You are wrong, he is an established leader on world leaders forum." Recent news of 4/5 October, 2016; Imam is seen in photo ( on first page of Heritage ) with other world leaders on the issue of Afghanistan.
You quoted my previous post," I remember you mentioning in one of your posts that in Pakistan he is not considered as a Muslim." Please re read my post again, I wrote," many in Pak ( not all Pakistanis ) do not consider him as a Muslim." Let me quote an event. At time of inaugural function of Aga Khan University in Karachi, General Zia presented a Copy of Quran to Hazar Imam. Next day in some news papers a discussion started "How come General Zia gave Quran in hands of a non Muslim."
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: Your are well aware that there was ginan conference in 1969 prior to 1975 Paris conference in which ginans were categorized. There has been discussion on this forum.
You know I was a student at the IIS and we were lectured on Ginans by Alwaez Amlani. In one of his classes he told us that he had a personal one to one discussion about Ginans with the Imam for an hour. He told MHI that we are being accused of spreading Hinduism in Ginans. MHI got emotional and banged his hand on the table and said: The Quran mentions Moses and Jesus, we don't become Jews and Christians thereby.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: At time of inaugural function of Aga Khan University in Karachi, General Zia presented a Copy of Quran to Hazar Imam. Next day in some news papers a discussion started "How come General Zia gave Quran in hands of a non Muslim."
That is exactly the point I am making today. The Imam is not considered a leader by the majority to warrant him to take any initiative to improve the conditions directly, though indirectly he is doing so through AKDN.

How many Muslims would have known about the conference on Afghanistan? How many newspapers in the Muslim world would have reported about it?
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Post by Admin »

I would add, how many Muslim countries are helping Afghanistan?

And if you look at the video of the group photo taken at the Bruxelles Afghanistan Conference, in the Euronews video you can see Hazar Imam. In the Al-Jazirah news, Hazar Imam is not seen as if he had disappeared by miracle from the place...
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Post by zznoor »

He told MHI that we are being accused of spreading Hinduism in Ginans. MHI got emotional and banged his hand on the table and said: The Quran mentions Moses and Jesus, we don't become Jews and Christi
But there is one difference
Moses and Jesus are also Prophets of Islam and Quran was revealed bacause changes in Jewish and Christian scriptures. Hindu mythology or Hindu gods cannot be taught bacause it leds to idol worship.
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