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first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
I asked you about the price of mangoes but you gave me quotation about bananas. Please read my question again; I asked," Pindiyat enjoys title of real pir, where Imam as Pir is also present. I have not seen any Talika or writings by any Imam to withdrew Pir title from Pindiyat."
There is a saying of Hazarat Ali:

"A man of learning lives even after his death, while an ignorant man is dead while alive!"

MSMS made a remark that Pir Sadardeen is alive as long as his Ginans are recited.

So Pir Pandiyat is as alive as Pir Sadardeen.


You keep twisting my questions and your answers but I shall not let you go.
Pir Sadardin is alive because of his ginans, as Shakespeare is alive because of his poetry. Same way Rumi, Hafiz, Jami, Khayam, Shah Latif, Sachal, Iqbal, Faiz, and so on.
Pir Pindiyat is alive, so Hazar Imam as Pir is present also. Two pirs at a time!! There should be one PIR at a time according to Satpunthi Tariqa, am I right?
Regarding your quote of Mowla Ali, it is true, but I am not dying for my PR or LEGACY. I WRITE WHAT I FEEL IS RIGHT.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Pir Pindiyat is alive, so Hazar Imam as Pir is present also. Two pirs at a time!! There should be one PIR at a time according to Satpunthi Tariqa, am I right?
Regarding your quote of Mowla Ali, it is true, but I am not dying for my PR or LEGACY. I WRITE WHAT I FEEL IS RIGHT.
Tell me what aspect of the Book Pir Pandiyati is considered as the Pir. Is it the form of the book or the message. Is the original book sent by the Imam existent?

If copies were made, would you consider the copies as Pirs as well?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Pir Pindiyat is alive, so Hazar Imam as Pir is present also. Two pirs at a time!! There should be one PIR at a time according to Satpunthi Tariqa, am I right?
Regarding your quote of Mowla Ali, it is true, but I am not dying for my PR or LEGACY. I WRITE WHAT I FEEL IS RIGHT.
Tell me what aspect of the Book Pir Pandiyati is considered as the Pir. Is it the form of the book or the message. Is the original book sent by the Imam existent?

If copies were made, would you consider the copies as Pirs as well?



Obviously it was in book form sent to followers of sub continent as Pir.
You did not address my question so far," Which Imam gave title of Pir to Pindiyat, was that Imam Mustansirbillah second or Imam Mustansirbillah second?"
You wrote," Would you consider the copies as Pirs?" Good try. Let me ask you, will you consider all ginas means 800+ as Pirs?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Pir Pindiyat is alive, so Hazar Imam as Pir is present also. Two pirs at a time!! There should be one PIR at a time according to Satpunthi Tariqa, am I right?
Regarding your quote of Mowla Ali, it is true, but I am not dying for my PR or LEGACY. I WRITE WHAT I FEEL IS RIGHT.
Tell me what aspect of the Book Pir Pandiyati is considered as the Pir. Is it the form of the book or the message. Is the original book sent by the Imam existent?

If copies were made, would you consider the copies as Pirs as well?



Obviously it was in book form sent to followers of sub continent as Pir.
You did not address my question so far," Which Imam gave title of Pir to Pindiyat, was that Imam Mustansirbillah second or Imam Mustansirbillah second?"
You wrote," Would you consider the copies as Pirs?" Good try. Let me ask you, will you consider all ginas means 800+ as Pirs?


I made mistake , please correct the sentence," was that Imam mustansirbillah second or Imam Mustansirbillah third."
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 6119

PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

I made mistake , please correct the sentence," was that Imam mustansirbillah second or Imam Mustansirbillah third."


Please stop playing childish games.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

I made mistake , please correct the sentence," was that Imam mustansirbillah second or Imam Mustansirbillah third."


Please stop playing childish games.



Childish games!!
There was a debate on Ismailignosis on Imam Mustansirbillah second and Imam Mustansirbillah third in connetion to Pindiyat. If you don't know ask Kmaherali. Still waiting for his reply on this.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Obviously it was in book form sent to followers of sub continent as Pir.?
If that is the case, then the book form sent to the Indian Jamat was not available to most of the Jamat even during the time it was sent! Copies of it were distributed as they are available today. According to you, the copies cannot be considered the Pir and hence Pir Pandiat is dead just as the physical body of Pir Sadardeen is dead and buried. So there is no issue of having 2 Pirs today.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," Would you consider the copies as Pirs?" Good try. Let me ask you, will you consider all ginas means 800+ as Pirs?
Yes I would consider Ginans to be the Pirs as mentioned in the verse of the Ginan:

Eji Pargatt pekheyaa tain-yej jaanno,
vikhe vivaad ginaan ne ma-aanno;
ginaan maanhe to saaheb chhe,
te deh vise chhe raaj re;
Nar-ne pirsaade Miraa bhanne Sayyed Khaan,
te miliyaa muj ne aaj re ji 7

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3773

Ginans are Pirs in the sense that through them the Pirs are alive. However there aren't 800+ Pirs as you say. All Ginans of Pir Sadardeen would be considered as Pir Sadardeen. All Ginans of Pir Shams would be considered as Pir Shams and so on.

In that sense Pir Pandiaat is as alive as Pir Sadardeen.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21488

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
There was a debate on Ismailignosis on Imam Mustansirbillah second and Imam Mustansirbillah third in connetion to Pindiyat. If you don't know ask Kmaherali. Still waiting for his reply on this.
There is no Mustansirbillah III, Mustansirbillah II was the Pir in the form of the book. The following is what Abually Missionary wrote in his book:

29. PI'R MUSTANSIR BILLAH (PANDI'YA'TE' JAWA'NMARDI)

On the death of Pi'r Ta'jdi'n the Holy Ima'm became unhappy with the jama't. He did not appoint another Pi'r and kept the Pi'ra'tan with himself. Thus the twenty-ninth Holy Pi'r was Ima'm Mustansir Billa-II himself. He wrote a book, in Persian, Pandi'ya'te'Jawa'nmardi (Maxims of the Righteous) which contains the advices for the behaviour of the Isma'ilis, the momineen.

With the death of Pi'r Ta'jdi'n, Pi'ra'tan came to an end in the family of Pi'r Sadruddi'n. This line of Holy Pi'rs, as explained above, came down from the eighth Pi'r Sayyid Isma'il Tha'ni alias Pi'r Ima'muddi'n, a son of Ima'm Mohammed bin Isma'il.

The Isma'ili da'wat shifted from India to Iran but the vaki'ls and da'i's in India continued their activities enthusiastically.

The scanned version of the book can be accessed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2490&highlight=abul+hasan
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shivaathervedi



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Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
There was a debate on Ismailignosis on Imam Mustansirbillah second and Imam Mustansirbillah third in connetion to Pindiyat. If you don't know ask Kmaherali. Still waiting for his reply on this.
There is no Mustansirbillah III, Mustansirbillah II was the Pir in the form of the book. The following is what Abually Missionary wrote in his book:

29. PI'R MUSTANSIR BILLAH (PANDI'YA'TE' JAWA'NMARDI)

On the death of Pi'r Ta'jdi'n the Holy Ima'm became unhappy with the jama't. He did not appoint another Pi'r and kept the Pi'ra'tan with himself. Thus the twenty-ninth Holy Pi'r was Ima'm Mustansir Billa-II himself. He wrote a book, in Persian, Pandi'ya'te'Jawa'nmardi (Maxims of the Righteous) which contains the advices for the behaviour of the Isma'ilis, the momineen.

With the death of Pi'r Ta'jdi'n, Pi'ra'tan came to an end in the family of Pi'r Sadruddi'n. This line of Holy Pi'rs, as explained above, came down from the eighth Pi'r Sayyid Isma'il Tha'ni alias Pi'r Ima'muddi'n, a son of Ima'm Mohammed bin Isma'il.

The Isma'ili da'wat shifted from India to Iran but the vaki'ls and da'i's in India continued their activities enthusiastically.

The scanned version of the book can be accessed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2490&highlight=abul+hasan


Once when I quoted Al Waiz Abu Ali, you refuted it. He wrote," Imam is Hujjatullah and Pir is Hujjatul Imam and Khalifatur Rasul." He has been criticized on many other issues also. The story you mentioned is well known.
Let me quote Ivanow on this matter. He wrote in in the introduction of Pindiyat page 5," From other sources, such as Haft Baab composed in the beginning of 16th century, we find that the name of successor of Shah Abdus Salam was also Mustansirbillah, the second; realy the third if we include the Fatimid Caliph. In the official list he is mentioned under his popular surname of Gharib Mirza. All this finds complete support from the most authentic sources, namely inscriptions on the tombs of these Imams, buried in Anjudan, in western Persia."
So it was Imam Mustansirbillah third famous by name Gharib Mirza who gave Pindiyat title of Pir.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Obviously it was in book form sent to followers of sub continent as Pir.?
If that is the case, then the book form sent to the Indian Jamat was not available to most of the Jamat even during the time it was sent! Copies of it were distributed as they are available today. According to you, the copies cannot be considered the Pir and hence Pir Pandiat is dead just as the physical body of Pir Sadardeen is dead and buried. So there is no issue of having 2 Pirs today.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," Would you consider the copies as Pirs?" Good try. Let me ask you, will you consider all ginas means 800+ as Pirs?
Yes I would consider Ginans to be the Pirs as mentioned in the verse of the Ginan:

Eji Pargatt pekheyaa tain-yej jaanno,
vikhe vivaad ginaan ne ma-aanno;
ginaan maanhe to saaheb chhe,
te deh vise chhe raaj re;
Nar-ne pirsaade Miraa bhanne Sayyed Khaan,
te miliyaa muj ne aaj re ji 7

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3773

Ginans are Pirs in the sense that through them the Pirs are alive. However there aren't 800+ Pirs as you say. All Ginans of Pir Sadardeen would be considered as Pir Sadardeen. All Ginans of Pir Shams would be considered as Pir Shams and so on.

In that sense Pir Pandiaat is as alive as Pir Sadardeen.


When MSMS passed away it does not mean he was not Imam. Title of Pir from Pindiyat is not withdrawn by any Imam so far.
On ref. of Syed khan you wrote," Ginan mahe(n) tou Saheb Chhe." Means through GIYAAN you can attain Imam.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21488

PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
When MSMS passed away it does not mean he was not Imam. Title of Pir from Pindiyat is not withdrawn by any Imam so far.
On ref. of Syed khan you wrote," Ginan mahe(n) tou Saheb Chhe." Means through GIYAAN you can attain Imam.
In what sense is MSMS still the Imam? There is no need of withdrawing the title, the message of Pir Pandiyat is just as alive as the message of Pir Sadardeen.

OK the other Ginan verse says:

Ginan bolo re nit noore bhariya - Recite Ginans always for they are filled with Noor (of the Pir).
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Once when I quoted Al Waiz Abu Ali, you refuted it. He wrote," Imam is Hujjatullah and Pir is Hujjatul Imam and Khalifatur Rasul." He has been criticized on many other issues also. The story you mentioned is well known..
If you disagree with someone on one issue, it does not follow that you disagree with him on every issue. In this particular case, whatever he has said reflects what was recited by our forefathers for centuries in the Dua (which was approved by Imams of the past). Do you think our Old Dua was wrong?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
When MSMS passed away it does not mean he was not Imam. Title of Pir from Pindiyat is not withdrawn by any Imam so far.
On ref. of Syed khan you wrote," Ginan mahe(n) tou Saheb Chhe." Means through GIYAAN you can attain Imam.
In what sense is MSMS still the Imam? There is no need of withdrawing the title, the message of Pir Pandiyat is just as alive as the message of Pir Sadardeen.

OK the other Ginan verse says:

Ginan bolo re nit noore bhariya - Recite Ginans always for they are filled with Noor (of the Pir).


Still reciting Du'a, in 6th part you say, ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI MOWLANA ALI ( means Ya Allah in the name of Ali; 'BIHAQQI' is an important word in Du'a means Wasilah, zariyah, tufail, in the name of, on behalf of) and on 48th name we say, MOWLANA SULTAN MUHAMMAD SHAH. Why because in the chain of Imamat he was our 48th Imam.
No one will recognize it as pir IF we say sadardin Bachu, Sadardin Kara, Sadardin Rahmu, BUT when we say Pir Sadardin Ismailis will recognize promptly. Same way if some one say PIND, means any book containing advises, but when we say Pir Pindiyat, every Ismaili will recognize this particular book.
The meaning of ginan line which you quoted means, "Always recite WISDOM filled ginan." Pirs and Sadaats have used the word NOOR in different ways in ginans. There is no particular FIXED meaning.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Once when I quoted Al Waiz Abu Ali, you refuted it. He wrote," Imam is Hujjatullah and Pir is Hujjatul Imam and Khalifatur Rasul." He has been criticized on many other issues also. The story you mentioned is well known..
If you disagree with someone on one issue, it does not follow that you disagree with him on every issue. In this particular case, whatever he has said reflects what was recited by our forefathers for centuries in the Dua (which was approved by Imams of the past). Do you think our Old Dua was wrong?


Al Waiz Abu Ali was a famous and respected missionary. Throngs of Ismailis, in some cases thousands Ismailis listened to his waizes and still thousandS listen to his cassettes and CDs. His statement is crucial and mostly Ismailis know it. In his life time no one confronted with him, though that statement is against Satpunthi tradition, but I personally accept it correct that," IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND PIR IS HUJJATUL IMAM."
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND PIR IS HUJJATUL IMAM."
I have no problem accepting the statement so long as Hujatullah = Allah as per the explanation of Nasir Khusraw in his Kalame Pir.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND PIR IS HUJJATUL IMAM."
I have no problem accepting the statement so long as Hujatullah = Allah as per the explanation of Nasir Khusraw in his Kalame Pir.


What is the meaning of Hujjatullah?
This is 3rd time you are quoting Nasir Khusraw but not providing me with actual paragraph in Persian or in English, I have mostly read Nasir but no where found Hujjatullah= Allah. Please post the page #, so that I should verify.

You wrote," I have no problem accepting the statement so long as Hujjatullah= Allah." Then who will be Hujjatul Imam or Khalifatur Rasul as Al Waiz Abu Ali wrote in his book?
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
What is the meaning of Hujjatullah?
This is 3rd time you are quoting Nasir Khusraw but not providing me with actual paragraph in Persian or in English, I have mostly read Nasir but no where found Hujjatullah= Allah. Please post the page #, so that I should verify.?
Go to the link below and you will get all the information about the term and the translation by Ivanow of the Kalame Pir. It is on page 12 of the document.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorEnAllahNoor1-40.pdf
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," I have no problem accepting the statement so long as Hujjatullah= Allah." Then who will be Hujjatul Imam or Khalifatur Rasul as Al Waiz Abu Ali wrote in his book?
The Pir is the Hujjatul Imam because he functions on behalf of the Imam.

I don't accept anyone to be the Khalifatul Rasul in our Tariqah. The position of Rasul is a temporary one and is Universal in nature. No one in our Tariqah performs that role today.
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad.

when Hz Ali said he is the creator.
farman on other imam 4-5 them stating directly or directly theit own status from their own lips sand recorded.
then what level Nasir Khusraw is given importance and an average Alwaez who did know a word of baatin statements makes importance.

full evaluation of hujjat at two level can be seen
as one appointed as pir or dai.( it is an title and but also has baatin attributes)
and Imam himself taking over role on the pir.(guider).
one must refer to postings made by tret and his nice explaination
of hujjat of the day and hujjat of the night.
many did not understood it but I got it and kept quiet.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
What is the meaning of Hujjatullah?
This is 3rd time you are quoting Nasir Khusraw but not providing me with actual paragraph in Persian or in English, I have mostly read Nasir but no where found Hujjatullah= Allah. Please post the page #, so that I should verify.?
Go to the link below and you will get all the information about the term and the translation by Ivanow of the Kalame Pir. It is on page 12 of the document.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorEnAllahNoor1-40.pdf
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," I have no problem accepting the statement so long as Hujjatullah= Allah." Then who will be Hujjatul Imam or Khalifatur Rasul as Al Waiz Abu Ali wrote in his book?
The Pir is the Hujjatul Imam because he functions on behalf of the Imam.

I don't accept anyone to be the Khalifatul Rasul in our Tariqah. The position of Rasul is a temporary one and is Universal in nature. No one in our Tariqah performs that role today.


You keep giving me wrong addresses. On page 12 there is no mention of Kalam e Pir or Hujjatullah. There is only one paragraph which starts," Religious way of life and the ideals one should seek in order to become the true momins of Shri Vishnu Var Datar-------- . And at the end is mentioned translation of part of ayat Noor, 24/35.
You wrote," The position of Rasul is temporary one---", I don't think so. Risalat of Prophet Muhammad is for ever because he is Rahmatul lil Aalamin till dooms day.
You accept the statements of Al Waiz Abu Ali which suits you and which goes against your ideology you do not accept them. " A BRIEF HISTORY OF ISMAILISM" was written by him in 1974, since that time no one confronted his following staetment in the book for 40+ years. He wrote," IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND KHALIFATULLAH, THE VICEGERENT OF GOD."
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
You keep giving me wrong addresses. On page 12 there is no mention of Kalam e Pir or Hujjatullah.."
Sorry it is on page 7, though I have posted this article before which should have triggered some memory in you if you read it.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," The position of Rasul is temporary one---", I don't think so. Risalat of Prophet Muhammad is for ever because he is Rahmatul lil Aalamin till dooms day.."
The Rasul means a Messenger sent for a specific time. Tell me who is the Rahmatil Aalemeen for the Sunnis today.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You accept the statements of Al Waiz Abu Ali which suits you and which goes against your ideology you do not accept them. " A BRIEF HISTORY OF ISMAILISM" was written by him in 1974, since that time no one confronted his following staetment in the book for 40+ years. He wrote," IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND KHALIFATULLAH, THE VICEGERENT OF GOD."
That's true, our faith encourages us to use our intellects and accept that which accords to our intellects and reject that which doesn't. It is not about who says but what is said.

The Imam is both the Gurnar - Shah and the Pir. In the capacity of the Shah he is the Hujjatullah, in the capacity of the Pir he is the vicegerent of God - the role which is delegated to other persons sometimes.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
You keep giving me wrong addresses. On page 12 there is no mention of Kalam e Pir or Hujjatullah.."
Sorry it is on page 7, though I have posted this article before which should have triggered some memory in you if you read it.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," The position of Rasul is temporary one---", I don't think so. Risalat of Prophet Muhammad is for ever because he is Rahmatul lil Aalamin till dooms day.."
The Rasul means a Messenger sent for a specific time. Tell me who is the Rahmatil Aalemeen for the Sunnis today.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You accept the statements of Al Waiz Abu Ali which suits you and which goes against your ideology you do not accept them. " A BRIEF HISTORY OF ISMAILISM" was written by him in 1974, since that time no one confronted his following staetment in the book for 40+ years. He wrote," IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND KHALIFATULLAH, THE VICEGERENT OF GOD."
That's true, our faith encourages us to use our intellects and accept that which accords to our intellects and reject that which doesn't. It is not about who says but what is said.

The Imam is both the Gurnar - Shah and the Pir. In the capacity of the Shah he is the Hujjatullah, in the capacity of the Pir he is the vicegerent of God - the role which is delegated to other persons sometimes.


Here Rasul means Prophet Muhammadand not an ordinary messenger, as we say in 3rd part of Du'a" YA AYUHAR RASULU BALIGH, MA UNZILA ILAIKA MIR RABIK...."
Sunnis consider Prophet Muhammad is RAHMATUL LIL AALAMIN as Quran says. They believe in Noor i Muhammadi.
What Al Waiz Abu Ali wrote, he preached the same also. The book was written for Ismailis as he mentioned.
In faith we do not use intellect for do this and do not do this (order). It is not necessary to use intellect in every aspect of faith/religion.
When Piratan is seperate from Imamat, what Pir (as seperate entity) will be called 'Khalifatullah' or Hujjatul Imam?
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Sunnis consider Prophet Muhammad is RAHMATUL LIL AALAMIN as Quran says. They believe in Noor i Muhammadi.
The majority of the Sunnis do not consider the Prophet as being someone with Divine powers or the manifestation of Noor -i- Muhammadi. They simply think of him as a transmitter of the Message like a fax machine:

"Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): I say not unto you (that) I possess the treasures of Allah, nor that I have knowledge of the Unseen; and I say not unto you: Lo! I am an angel. I follow only that which is inspired in me."(6:50)

It is only the Sufis who consider him to be the manifestation of Nur-i-Muhammadi.

So there is no one today who functions in the capacity of Rahmatul Aaalamin and who is universally recognised as such.
shivaathervedi wrote:

In faith we do not use intellect for do this and do not do this (order). It is not necessary to use intellect in every aspect of faith/religion.
When Piratan is seperate from Imamat, what Pir (as seperate entity) will be called 'Khalifatullah' or Hujjatul Imam?
Intellect is a facet of faith and we are encouraged to use it in the service of faith:

"Shia Islam, amongst many other idiosyncrasies right from the time of Hazarat Ali has placed immense importance in the intellect of man, in the capacity of man to use his mind, his intelligence competently and in the service of the faith and the ethic of faith. And when you reflect what that means, essentially it says that there is no conflict between faith and intellect. On the contrary, intellect properly interpreted is another facet of faith" (London, Aug 5, 1994)

The only exception is that what you derive by your intellect should not conflict with the Farman of the Imam.

The Pir is the hujja of the Imam.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
You keep giving me wrong addresses. On page 12 there is no mention of Kalam e Pir or Hujjatullah.."
Sorry it is on page 7, though I have posted this article before which should have triggered some memory in you if you read it.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," The position of Rasul is temporary one---", I don't think so. Risalat of Prophet Muhammad is for ever because he is Rahmatul lil Aalamin till dooms day.."
The Rasul means a Messenger sent for a specific time. Tell me who is the Rahmatil Aalemeen for the Sunnis today.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You accept the statements of Al Waiz Abu Ali which suits you and which goes against your ideology you do not accept them. " A BRIEF HISTORY OF ISMAILISM" was written by him in 1974, since that time no one confronted his following staetment in the book for 40+ years. He wrote," IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND KHALIFATULLAH, THE VICEGERENT OF GOD."
That's true, our faith encourages us to use our intellects and accept that which accords to our intellects and reject that which doesn't. It is not about who says but what is said.

The Imam is both the Gurnar - Shah and the Pir. In the capacity of the Shah he is the Hujjatullah, in the capacity of the Pir he is the vicegerent of God - the role which is delegated to other persons sometimes.



It is not on page 7 either but there is mention of Kalam e Pir and Ivanow. The paragraph starts, I quote," All Imams are of the same substance and nature as ALI. There are no smaller or greater Imams among them. The line of Imamat can never become extinct or interrupted........"
In above paragraph the word SUBSTANCE is used, means matter. Matter carries weight and is affected by natural causes and God is above material world.
Is Noorun ala Noor in book form. Who published it, in which country, and in what year. It looks like a series of lectures or waizes, the material which I have heard mostly from senior missionaries.
I looked for the book Kalam e Pir but unable to find it, not even English translation by Ivanow. Until related Persian paragraphs are not available can't figure out. Ivanow's mostly translations are abridged and not complete.
Even the name of the book should be Kalam e Hujjat e Khurasan. The word Pir instead of Hujjat is not popular in central Asian countries. A pir can be any pir, old man.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kalame Pir was supposed to have been scanned but I don't find it on ismaili.net

Maybe it was not uploaded to the server.

There is an interesting review of the work on http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0695.html

I will upload the book once I find if it has been scanned of has to be scanned. Be patient, it may take few weeks.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
It is not on page 7 either but there is mention of Kalam e Pir and Ivanow. The paragraph starts, I quote," All Imams are of the same substance and nature as ALI. There are no smaller or greater Imams among them. The line of Imamat can never become extinct or interrupted........".
Sorry again and my mistake. I didn't realize you don't have intellect. You see when a reference does not end on a particular specified page, it continues or flows over to the next page. Hence the mention of Hujjat is on page 8.
shivaathervedi wrote:

In above paragraph the word SUBSTANCE is used, means matter. Matter carries weight and is affected by natural causes and God is above material world..
Subtance in this case cannot be material because the material nature of the Imam varies from one Imam to another. Substance in this case means that which is significant aspect of Imamat which is the Noor.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Is Noorun ala Noor in book form. Who published it, in which country, and in what year. It looks like a series of lectures or waizes, the material which I have heard mostly from senior missionaries..
A book is a book whether it is published or not, whether it contains speeches, lectures or Farmans. It has material of such importance for individuals to scan and make available to the Jamat.

Esoteric material is not always published, just like the KIZ Farman book.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
It is not on page 7 either but there is mention of Kalam e Pir and Ivanow. The paragraph starts, I quote," All Imams are of the same substance and nature as ALI. There are no smaller or greater Imams among them. The line of Imamat can never become extinct or interrupted........".
Sorry again and my mistake. I didn't realize you don't have intellect. You see when a reference does not end on a particular specified page, it continues or flows over to the next page. Hence the mention of Hujjat is on page 8.
shivaathervedi wrote:

In above paragraph the word SUBSTANCE is used, means matter. Matter carries weight and is affected by natural causes and God is above material world..
Subtance in this case cannot be material because the material nature of the Imam varies from one Imam to another. Substance in this case means that which is significant aspect of Imamat which is the Noor.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Is Noorun ala Noor in book form. Who published it, in which country, and in what year. It looks like a series of lectures or waizes, the material which I have heard mostly from senior missionaries..
A book is a book whether it is published or not, whether it contains speeches, lectures or Farmans. It has material of such importance for individuals to scan and make available to the Jamat.

Esoteric material is not always published, just like the KIZ Farman book.


I went on your address and found a complex with 40+ units. I knocked apt # 12 it was locked, then I knocked apt #7, it was locked also. My intellect suggested that instead of knocking all doors and disturbing neighborhood better I ask you once again, and on 3rd attempt I am right on your page you asked me to read, thanks. But I could not find your formula that
HUJJATULLAH= ALLAH, instead there was 'HUJJATULLAH IS PROOF OF GOD'.
When the word OF is used in between 2 comparisons means we are talking of 2 entities.
Ivanow new English and Persian well. He used the word substance, why? I can't say until we have Persian text to find that what word was used by Nasir. In my opinion it should have been 'JOHAR'.
By the way let me ask you; Is Noor can be considered substance? A body can be.
You wrote," a book is a book whether it is published or not...."! My small intellect tells me when book is not published it is called manuscript. It shows Noorun ala Noor is not published and is not in a book form, just articles written with personal ideology. There are thousands of such scripts and articles written by Ismailis. There are many contradictory points in Noorun ala Noor. These personal writings are not recommended by ITREB.
You wrote," Esoteric material is not always published, just like the KIZ farman book." But KIZ is any how in book form and published like KIM. I have seen KIZ in hands of a non Ismaili.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Sunnis consider Prophet Muhammad is RAHMATUL LIL AALAMIN as Quran says. They believe in Noor i Muhammadi.
The majority of the Sunnis do not consider the Prophet as being someone with Divine powers or the manifestation of Noor -i- Muhammadi. They simply think of him as a transmitter of the Message like a fax machine:

"Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): I say not unto you (that) I possess the treasures of Allah, nor that I have knowledge of the Unseen; and I say not unto you: Lo! I am an angel. I follow only that which is inspired in me."(6:50)

It is only the Sufis who consider him to be the manifestation of Nur-i-Muhammadi.

So there is no one today who functions in the capacity of Rahmatul Aaalamin and who is universally recognised as such.
shivaathervedi wrote:

In faith we do not use intellect for do this and do not do this (order). It is not necessary to use intellect in every aspect of faith/religion.
When Piratan is seperate from Imamat, what Pir (as seperate entity) will be called 'Khalifatullah' or Hujjatul Imam?
Intellect is a facet of faith and we are encouraged to use it in the service of faith:

"Shia Islam, amongst many other idiosyncrasies right from the time of Hazarat Ali has placed immense importance in the intellect of man, in the capacity of man to use his mind, his intelligence competently and in the service of the faith and the ethic of faith. And when you reflect what that means, essentially it says that there is no conflict between faith and intellect. On the contrary, intellect properly interpreted is another facet of faith" (London, Aug 5, 1994)

The only exception is that what you derive by your intellect should not conflict with the Farman of the Imam.

The Pir is the hujja of the Imam.


Not all Muslims but only Wahabis and Salafis consider Prophet Muhammad without divine powers. Main stream Muslims consider him as Noorullah also.
Lately you have quoted the Hadith in which Prophet said," I am from Noorullah and creation is from my Noor." In poetry and Qawalis there is frequent mention of Prophet as Noorullah. For example;

JANATUL MA'WA AST JANAN KOEY TU
MAZHAR E NOOR E ILLAHI RUEY TU
AMIR KHUSRU

AY RAHAMAT TAMAAM SHAHANSHAH KHUSH KHUSAAL
AY MAZHAR TAJALLI ANWAAR E ZUL JALAL

AY MAZHAR E NOOR E KHUDA
BALAGHUL ULLA BI KAMALIHI
MOWLA ALI MUSHKUL KUSHA
KASHAFAD DUJA BI JAMALIHI
HASNAIN JAAN E FATIMAH
HASANAT JAMEI' KHISALIHI
YA'NI MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
SALLU ALAIHI WA AALIHI

No doubt intellect is important to understand faith, what I say is, it is not necessary for all facets of faith, like in ethical values we have to obey order. Do this and avoid that. There are some aspects of faith where aql hesitate.

BEY KHATTAR KUDD PARA AATISH E NAMRUD MEY ISHQ
AQL THI MAHWEY TAMAASHA E LUBB E BAAM ABHI
ALLAMAH IQBAL

Imam is Hujjatullah
Pir is Hujjatul Imam
Who is Hujjatul Pir?
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
But I could not find your formula that
HUJJATULLAH= ALLAH, instead there was 'HUJJATULLAH IS PROOF OF GOD'.
When the word OF is used in between 2 comparisons means we are talking of 2 entities...

On page 8 it is stated: "The Imam is the 'Hujjat' or 'Proof of God', and it is for this reason that some Imams have said. "What is said about God refers also to us."
A normal person with intellect would interpret the above statement to imply: HUJJATULLAH= ALLAH!
shivaathervedi wrote:

By the way let me ask you; Is Noor can be considered substance? A body can be.
Yes, Noor is the significant aspect of Imamat and sometimes it is also referred to as substance or essence of Imamat. Just google the word substance.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," a book is a book whether it is published or not...."! My small intellect tells me when book is not published it is called manuscript. It shows Noorun ala Noor is not published and is not in a book form, just articles written with personal ideology. There are thousands of such scripts and articles written by Ismailis. There are many contradictory points in Noorun ala Noor. These personal writings are not recommended by ITREB..

It is in a book form with introduction, contents, appendix etc. Just click here:
The Noor En Allah Noor - in PDF
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

This book was presented to MHI and he accepted it and a copy is at the IIS. It contains a lot of information about our tradition which one would not find anywhere else.
shivaathervedi wrote:

You wrote," Esoteric material is not always published, just like the KIZ farman book." But KIZ is any how in book form and published like KIM. I have seen KIZ in hands of a non Ismaili.
KIZ is printed in a book form but you cannot say it is published as no one is the publisher. The non-Ismaili is a lucky one! Although he may not benefit from it if he does not recognise the authority of the Imam and hence may think of it like any other material.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Not all Muslims but only Wahabis and Salafis consider Prophet Muhammad without divine powers. Main stream Muslims consider him as Noorullah also.?
If mainstream Muslims consider the Prophet as the Noor Muhammadi and hence Ramatul Aalamin, then where is that Rahemat for them today? In what form?

Ismailis have no problem because they consider the Imam to be the Rahamtul Aalamin.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Who is Hujjatul Pir?
At present we do not have one that has been appointed as such.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Not all Muslims but only Wahabis and Salafis consider Prophet Muhammad without divine powers. Main stream Muslims consider him as Noorullah also.?
If mainstream Muslims consider the Prophet as the Noor Muhammadi and hence Ramatul Aalamin, then where is that Rahemat for them today? In what form?

Ismailis have no problem because they consider the Imam to be the Rahamtul Aalamin.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Who is Hujjatul Pir?
At present we do not have one that has been appointed as such.


Noor e Muhammadi is present for ever and so is his Rahmat. I quoted few references and can quote scores of more that Muslims generally consider Prophet Muhammad as Noorullah, and for that I mentioned your quote also.
We consider Imam as Rahmat in a sense that he is from Noor e Muhammad and Noor e Ali. MSMS SAID IN HIS VERY FIRST FARMAN," I AM THE NOOR OF BOTH HAZRAT ALI AND HOLY PROPHET. THOUGH YOUNG IN AGE I AM EXALTED." MSMS, CORONATION DAY. BOMBAY SEP 1, 1885.
Imam is Rahmat but that is not trickling down to rest of Muslims. May be they are not followers therefore neglected. Why Imam has not taken keen interest in solving Muslim world's burning problems by using his diplomatic efficiency and influence like MSMS did? Is Rahmat limited?
You are right, at present when there is no active Pir, therefore no Hujjat e Pir. But in past there were.
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