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first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution
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mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Nuseri,
You did not answer my questions on Kalima and their historical back ground. The change was made by our Imam. He changed the last wordings from Aliyun sahee Allah to Aliyun Amirul mu'mineena Aliyula. I am a staunch follower of Hazar Imam, hence I obey what He says. Refer to my previous posts, where I have mentioned the date for the special prayers for H I. If you are in chand raat mandli, listen care fully the Farman of Aqa Sultan Muhammad shah. I quote," Insha Allah Khuda tamara gunah ma'af karey anee tame(n) bahasht ma jao------------" Also in 2nd part of Du'a in the last paragraph we recite Kalima, there also we say Aliyun Amirul mu'mineena Aliyula.
I believe in TAWHEED as mentiond by Hazar Imam. You have mentioned in your post ," Ali is generic name of ALLAH, who is the brand name!" Nuseri, I use the medicines. I know the
brand names are original and more effective than generic ones.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In our tradition the Imam is the GurNar or ShahPir. He has two roles: on the one hand he is the Gur or Pir our Guide. In this capacity he gives us guidance in the form of Farameen and also prays for us hence the prayer in the Farman that you quoted. On the other hand he is the object of our worship. It is to him our prayers are directed and it is from who we get our support and help. Hence we recite daily: Ya Ali tun or Ya Hazir Imam and sometimes Ya Allah. MHI tells us in his Farameen to call on the names of Allah or the Imams so it is all the same.
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
kmaherali
On the other hand he is the object of our worship.

In true Tauhid object of worship is only for Allah SWT
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20049

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zznoor wrote:
Quote:
kmaherali
On the other hand he is the object of our worship.

In true Tauhid object of worship is only for Allah SWT
As you were explaned earlier, Allah is the Light and this light is manifest according to the Qur' an. Without the Manifest Light, Tawheed cannot be attained. That is the reason Allah sent his Proof for the Tawheed to be realized. Hence the Manifest Light and the Proof becomes the object of worship.

The one who does not recognise the Manifest Light and the Proof does not have the means towards the Tawheed and is not practising authentic Islam.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without the recognize to living imam ( Allah's Noor, the manifest light) no one can get salvation this is an Ismaili belief and therefore Imam's roll in Ismaili sect is most importants.[/quote]
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ismailignosis



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

" Now with due respect and not offending any body, why not in our du;a guzari after tasbihat, we say ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI AHL BAIT WA A'IMATICAL MUTAHAREEN HAMAREY GUNAH BAKHSH KAR WA HUM PAR RAHM FARMA, AND SO ON-"

- Mazhar, please go back and read my response above. The bi-haqqi is already implied. Also the mercy and blessings of Allah flow to us through the Imams. Just like if a doctor gives you medicine and heals you - you still ask the doctor for help and thank him but at the end of the day, you know the medicine comes from God.
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ismailignosis



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Imam does play a real and active role - his blessings, guidance, inspiration, purification, love and compassion for his murids makes their souls more receptive and polished, so that their souls can receive more of God's blessings. All these roles are given to Muhammad in the Quran anyway and transfer to the Imam.

The Imam's soul is also an intermediary for the blessings that come to us from God.

So the Imam plays two roles - the first role as an active guide and helper I describe above is what we ask for when we say Ya Ali, Ya Hazar Imam. The second role as intermediary and intercessor is signfied by the bi-haqqi tasbihs.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
On the other hand he is the object of our worship.


If we consider the Imam as an object to worship, then what would be the difference with an idol worshiper?

It's not the Imam himself physically, but it's the Imam's Essence, that's the kingdom of God.
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mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear kmaherali,
With reference to your ITV interview of Hazar Imam. He was asked by the interviewer, I quote," one of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the west think of you
as a living God; not only is that true, it is also BLASPHEMOUS. For that statement Hazar Imam replied ABSOLUTELY. The word absolutely is not used for, you are a living God but is used for that this statement of living God is blasphemous. So Hazar Imam negate the notion of living God considering it is blasphemous in Islam, hence He replied absolutely it is blasphemous. Also consider the words myth and some people in the west. Myth is not a fact, and some people in the west does not include all humanity. kmaherali, I shall refer you to 1983 clearification from the AIGLEMONT, when LIFE MAGAZINE published an article at time of Silver Jublee of Hazar Imam mentioning him as LIving God and spokesperson of Allah. I am mentioning here the excerption of that letter which was published by LIFE, in its next issue. The clearification
I quote here,"The introduction to the article on page 71 contained the most serious misrepresentations. The very first sentence referred to the AGA KHAN both as 'a living God' and 'spokesman for almighty Allah.' Both of these assertions are not only fundamentally erroneous, but of immeasurable offence to Muslims everywhere. In common with all Muslims throughout the world, the Ismailis affirm the fundamental testimony of truth, the SHAHADA, that there is no God bur ALLAH and that Muhammad is His messenger. It is the universal Muslim belief that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet of Allah---------------"( Please don't say it was for general public and not for Ismailis or it was for out siders and not insiders.) HAZAR IMAM DON'T LIE.
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fayaz006



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mazhar

Ismailignosis gave you a pretty good answer to your previous question about contradiction in Dua guzari and Dua. There is no contradiction in dua guzari and dua. If you still have issues you need to get more specific and not get hung up on one interview given by MHI. You need to reconcile the Ismaili philosophy from the fatimid times and understand what the Imam means to the Ismailis.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Mazhar;Ya Ali Madad.

1. Please explain what MHI has explained on the word 'tawhid'.

2. Please try to read a question by press in interview and how MHI replied.

how are so sure to what segment he replied.

to first he replied as absolutely and then on blasphemy , he replied to
during prophets time people were thinking idols as God. and later went to explain to mystic in sufism who consider him as god.
just read with regard for MHI N NOT as HIS ENEMY.


for me.
in our kalima.
Aliuallah is covered truth ( tariqat).
Ali shahi Allah is truth ( haqiqat).
allahuALI (ALLAH IS FROM ALI not the other way)
would be absolute truth.( marifat).
that period is not very far away.

our original Kalima from ages was modified on request by leaders of Imam SMS as it was annoying the ummah, so at to address to their sentiments and taking precaution to lives n property of Ismailis staying in ortodox muslim countries.
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ismailignosis



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nuseri

Nothing you say above makes any sense. Allah is Allah. Allah is not from Ali. No Imam or Pir or Dai has taught that!

According to MSMS, Allah is Monoreality. This Monoreality is the Light that shines and manifests in all creatures. Everything is in God but God transcends everything.


The Imam of the Time is the supreme locus of manifestation (mazhar) of God, the Monoreal, as per guidance of MHI at the Paris Conference 1976.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5970

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was no Conference in Paris in 1976, it was in 1975. In 1975, the Imam said Imam has to be explained as the Mazhar of Allah. The word Mazhar means different thing to different people. It may mean "Epiphany, Revelation" or something else.

There are many ways of understanding the Imam, it all depends of one's own belief and level of understanding. There is therefore no need to question one's interpretation. Faith is a very personal thing.

What Nuseri says make perfectly sense from his point of vue if one understands that Allah has attributes and God is beyond attributes.

Mowlana Alazikrihi Salaam said Imam is beyond existential determination. That discussion has already taken part in the Forum in another thread so there is no need to pursue this line in this thread.
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mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ismailignosis,
It is nice to have contact( or to speak) with some intellectuals or scholars. I have been reading your postings. Every one on this forum have their interpretations and views. I respect them all. I agree with Fayaz006 that if there is no zahir then there will be no batin. On spritual path we travel from zahir to batin. Inner search is personal matter.
I agree with Kmaherali that Hazar Imam is bearer of noor, now question is who is the giver of that noor. I agree with you that Imam is intercessor, intermediary, wasila, or zariya, or wasta. Let me quote here, Imam Ja'fer Sadiq said,"We are gates to Allah." It means through noor of Imamat one can come closer to ALLAH. That's why the word bi haqqi is used 5 times in our Du'a. Dear gnosis, you wrote," The bi haqqi is already implied and blessings of ALLAH flow to us through the Imams" My question is when you accepted the importance of the bi haqqi, why is not bi haqqi embedded in the wordings of du'a guzari after tasbihat. I REQUEST THE SAME WORDINGS OF HOLY DU'A BE RECITED IN DU'A GUZARI. ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI AHL BAIT WA A'IMATICAL MUTAHAREEN HAM PAR RAHM FARMA AND SO ON------------------------------------ What is harm in it. Did at the time of Fatimid caliphate, Ismailis prayed like, Ya Khalifatul muslimeen hamarey ghu------------------ or Ya Imam e zamaan hamarey----------------. Ismailis at that time used to pray like other muslims by saying ALLAHUM BI HAQQI--------------------------. My other point is, when namaz will be implemented
( bahut charcha huwa,6 years passed yet not implemented because there are complications) how Mukhi/ Kamadia or pesh imam will do du'a guzari amongst our ismaili and non ismaili brothers and sisters.Shall we follow the same tariqa as we do have now in JK?
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To mazhar;Ya Ali Madad.

I have asked you the question on MHI say on tawhid from day one.

MHI HAS SOLE RIGHT do set the prayers n tasbih for us.

A broad based reply to ismailignosis, who is at particular (reading) level of inspiration will be later.( Varying LEVELS as per minutes of 'time pass conference' long dead decades ago).
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Mazhar:Ya Ali Madad.
where is you answer on tawhid.
you are just posting incomplete/distorted interviews n magazine extracts.
Now we come to artcile in life magazine.
1.a statement made by third person about MHI is not valid in any court.
like he is god,actor.etc.
2.Did MHI PERSONALLY SAID THAT.It was his follower or believer who may have said it.
3. What magazine wrote could also be right,as the disclaimer said erroneous
and not totally wrong to the article.
it you write tawhid in official document as tawheed, it is error not a grave mistake.
ant error can be rectified with clarifications.
4. any write on MHI WHICH UNWARRANTED or unsolicited coming any where
in the world get immediate disclaimer from a team as not to create
problems and mutilple court cases on MHI.
5.WHY HAVE NOT WRTITTEN THE FULL DISCLAIMER.
YOU ended with half kalima.what are exaclt the word n line follow it.
manipulating is easy.put the whole disclaimer from start to finish.
6.Disclaimer is signed by a person selected to avoid futher legal complications n damages to Imamat.
7.MHI has not signed the disclaimer.SHOW ME THE PROOF OF HIS SIGNATURE.
8.you jump into your conclusion that MHI Has lied, prove it legally.


any interview or magazine can write anything,so a disclaimer goes as a legal stand(not imaan per se) to deal with the laws of the land.


It is accepting Living Imam as Amirulmomineen, and thru him recocnizing
God( farman/ginan/qasidas are full of it). and final objective n destnation
to be one with HIM( TAWHID).
THAT is what we seek 5 time ins a day for baatin n noorani didar.
What are those? they are higher level of experience,vision(didar/sighting)
and communication with God/ALI.
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mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Nuseri,
Regarding Tawheed read my posting of 1/1/15 at 12.54pm addressed to you. I wrote Tawheed means, " There is no God but ALLAH and MUHAMMAD PBUH is His Rasul.
Tawheed is complete when we believe in both." Until and unless any person who do not accept Kalma Tawheed is not a muslim.So being a muslim first you have to believe in
ALLAH and Prophet MUHAMMAD PBUH as Rasul and then comes Ullil Amar( IMAM) as you say in 2nd part of Du'a.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI
TOU TAME(N) PAMO IMAM.
For union with ALLAH one must obey Him and His Rasul and Imam of the time, have high ethical values and proper bandagi, only then he/she can pave way for union with ALLAH. This is my final reply to you on Tawheed. Regarding the excerption from LIFE MAGAZINE which I quoted in my last posting, please go on line and read your self the
article " THE AGA KHAN" in issue of Dec 1983 and the reply from aiglemont in the issue of Feb 1984. You wrote, I quote," Now we come to article in LIfe magazine; a
statement made by 3rd person about MHI is not valid in any court like he is God, actor,etc." Your this statement is not clear, By 3rd person if you mean some staff member made that clearification is NOT POSSIBLLE without the permission and instructions of MHI. And if you mean that reporter made wrong assertion that MHI is a living God or spokeperson of Allah, I shall welcome your this statement. Please be carefull, I never said MHI lied. You are asking me for proof of signature of MHI on statement. In return
I am asking you a simple question. Do you have a signed document of MHI, where He has claimed to be God. Now you have come down to court, proof of signature, legality
of matters, disclaimer, solicitations etc. Also in your last posting you have mentioned," that is what we seek 5 times in a day for batini'n noorani deedar." Nuseri, how many times we pray on daily basis 3 or 5 times DU'A. In your posting of Jan 11,2015, you have mentiond," IT IS ACCEPTING LIVING IMAM AS AMIRUL MU'MINEEN AND THROUGH HIM RECOGNIZING GOD," Good Nuseri, so you have accepted what I was explaining that through Noor e Imamat and with His blessings we seek closer to ALLAH. Wait for my final posting on this subject.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20049

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:
Dear kmaherali,
With reference to your ITV interview of Hazar Imam. He was asked by the interviewer, I quote," one of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the west think of you
as a living God; not only is that true, it is also BLASPHEMOUS. For that statement Hazar Imam replied ABSOLUTELY. The word absolutely is not used for, you are a living God but is used for that this statement of living God is blasphemous. So Hazar Imam negate the notion of living God considering it is blasphemous in Islam, hence He replied absolutely it is blasphemous. Also consider the words myth and some people in the west. Myth is not a fact, and some people in the west does not include all humanity. kmaherali, I shall refer you to 1983 clearification from the AIGLEMONT, when LIFE MAGAZINE published an article at time of Silver Jublee of Hazar Imam mentioning him as LIving God and spokesperson of Allah. I am mentioning here the excerption of that letter which was published by LIFE, in its next issue. The clearification
I quote here,"The introduction to the article on page 71 contained the most serious misrepresentations. The very first sentence referred to the AGA KHAN both as 'a living God' and 'spokesman for almighty Allah.' Both of these assertions are not only fundamentally erroneous, but of immeasurable offence to Muslims everywhere. In common with all Muslims throughout the world, the Ismailis affirm the fundamental testimony of truth, the SHAHADA, that there is no God bur ALLAH and that Muhammad is His messenger. It is the universal Muslim belief that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet of Allah---------------"( Please don't say it was for general public and not for Ismailis or it was for out siders and not insiders.) HAZAR IMAM DON'T LIE.
Of course the interview and magazine audience is for general public including non-Ismailis. For non-Ismailis he is just a human being and hence it would be considered as a myth if he is called living God.

However MSMS in his Memoirs Has said:
"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

What does the above statement imply?

As you are a staunch Ismaili and who follows the Farman of the Imam, consider the following Farmans:

"I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good."

If the Imam himself says that he is Malikin naas, does it not imply from the Quranic Ayat that he is also Rabin naas (the Lord of the People) and Elahin naas (God of the People)?

In another Farman explaining the notion of Esoteric Islam (Sufism) MHI said:

"Do you know who was Al Hallaj? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me who was Al Hallaj?
(One spiritual child answered, Mansoor Al Hallaj ) Hazar Imam asked
"What was his main aim in life?"

(The same spiritual child replied, To be one with Allah and further added that Mansoor achieved the status of Fanna fillah and said An al Haq )

My beloved spiritual children,

The question I asked was difficult. It was a very difficult question because it did not concern our history, but it concerned a concept. A concept of the practice of Islam which is close to our concept, which is the concept of spirituality and Al Hallaj became a martyr because he believed that he had elevated his soul, that he had sufficiently eliminated all worldly matters, so that his soul should be identified with the Oneness with the Universal Unity, and he claimed publicly, An al Haq which means I am the Truth, and the Muslims of the time treated him as a heretic and he was put to death as a heretic. The reason I asked this question is that I want My spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam; the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say no, there is no esoteric form to Islam, there is but an exoteric form. This is why I asked who was Al Hallaj, and I am very happy and I congratulate the spiritual child who knew who was Al Hallaj. Khanavadan"

If Mansur could elevate himself and become one with Allah, don't you think that the Imam whom we consider as the Pure in our Dua would not be one with Allah as well? Try to understand Sufism, then you will realize the status of the Imam.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20049

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:

NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI
TOU TAME(N) PAMO IMAM..

The above verse means know the Prophet so that you may attain the Imam. The Imam is the station that is to be attained (to be one with him).
mazhar wrote:

I am asking you a simple question. Do you have a signed document of MHI, where He has claimed to be God. Now you have come down to court, proof of signature, legality
of matters, disclaimer, solicitations etc. .
Do you really expect someone to sign a document saying that he is God?
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ali is god or not? is a century old question the answer depends on your own faith, some peoples believe him as an ordinary man some peoples consider him as Allah!! and some peoples accept him as a Mazhar of Allah.


One educated family members asked SMS in one family mehmani in Mumbai.
" My brother and my mom says that you are a god? "
They are right, replied SMS.
What do you believe? asked SMS to that person.
he replied as a guide and mazahar of Allah!
SMS told him you are right too.

"I am that person what you believes and what you think and as per your faith.

For your brother and mom I am God and for you I am a guide and Mazahar of Allah and for my non-believers I am just an ordinary man! explained SMS.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Try to understand Sufism, then you will realize the status of the Imam.

kmaherali - sufism is not Ismailism. It may have close affinity and may share some principals, but it's not the same as Ismaili all together.

There's a difference between 'become one with the Divine' and 'to be identified with the Divine'. Sufism dictates the former; however, the correct notion is the latter, that Imam specifically stated that. Try and find the distinction and differences.

One who elevates to that level, is continuously being identified by the Divine, which means there's windows where one can fall from that level and not be identified. Where's when one becomes one with the Divine, then there's no falling off. Imam is always identified with the Divine, as there's no separation between The Command and the Intellect; however for individual souls, it's the matter of being identified and not becoming one. this is the difference and similarity between sufism and ours.

On the other hand, sufism dictates renounce of worldly attachment; giving one[dunya] for the other[din]. On the other hand, ours dictates a balance between both [Din and Dunya] as MHI repeatedly mentioned that. Because Din and Dynya are both man's responsibilities. One can not forsake one for the other.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually ismailis are on Tarikati level they are close to sufism but not the sufis.
btw what level sufis are?I don't know!
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
I heard from a leader that in early seventies during an opening of new JK
IN OUR CITY.
Local JK leaders were queued up receive MHI n were instructed by the council
on what to tell n how to stand,etc.
when MHI car arrived a non Ismaili officer open the door
He said welcome 'your highness' N MHI replied with thank you.
then local leaders as instructed said 'welcome Hazar Imam',He said Khanavadan and kept going forward.There was one faithful n emotionally charged he siad 'Welcome to your house n our hearts Khudavind'.
The leaders with scolding eyes were staring at him that said more than instructed.
I wish to know what was MHI response then?

The first greeting/expression was of protocol.
the next ones were of respect.
the last one was love with respect.

My second one I wish all members to true as per inspiration and research.
If not do more research from other religions the status quo of it.

In a signed talika/farman by MHI.
HE GREETS with
'MY DEAR SPIRITUAL CHILDREN'.
I have an irrevocable take on it with no wavering.
we have observe very closely with 360 degrees view on it.
if he address us as his children so by reply n default he becomes our
Spiritual father.
It is said mostly in all religions(study needed there) all human are children of GOD .spiritually n not biologically.
So a logical question arises.there cannot be two entity on spiritual
father for a small community and of the humanity.
If MHI says that with all power n legitimacy,it means He Has to be spiritual father of all souls on the earth.
So by virtue of his words He is claiming to be Spiritual Father of the all
the humanity.
As per belief of most religion that He has to be none other than GOD/
Ali+lah=Allah.
I personally being blessed with batin didar asked this question.
I GOT MY REPLY STAMPED ON MY HEART.
I have put with fair reasoning n logic n no fantasy or myth.
I wish all member to deep thinking on these four word,remember
Imam'S landmark Farman.s,pir n daI teaching.
Notion of all soul origination to God/spiritual father in different religion.
In future we will be asked what does that mean.
We have stand up for our beloved father n be counted as his child.
please put your points,no insult abuses or jokes.
IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US,SCHOLARS,ALWAEZ,TEAM IN IIS
to get conclusive meaning/reply of this blessed four word salutation n
greeting signed by him.

I will end with my favorite verse from a Ginan.
AHMED WO JO MARD HAI JO CHARD KAR MARE MAIDAN RE.
AHMED ALI ALI BOLIYA,PECHEE HONEE HOI SO HOI REE.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="tret"]
kmaherali wrote:
On the other hand, sufism dictates renounce of worldly attachment; giving one[dunya] for the other[din]. On the other hand, ours dictates a balance between both [Din and Dunya] as MHI repeatedly mentioned that. Because Din and Dynya are both man's responsibilities. One can not forsake one for the other.
Thanks for pointing out the subtle differences between Sufism and Ismailism. However from the practical point of view there seems to be very little difference. Consider the followig statements.

"Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies."( MHI's Message to The International Islamic Conference, Amman, Jordan, 4th - 6th July, 2005)

"Mowlana Rumi declared that he had once existed in the form of an inanimate rock. From this, he evolved into plant-life from which, becoming a tiny worm, he finally attained an animal existence; from the latter he acquired a human life. 'Where shall I go from hence?' he asks himself. 'I shall soar like an angel and thence I shall rise even higher.' You must aim eventually at fana (annihilation)." (Farman, Usul-e-Din, 1899)

"You must turn your hearts and intentions towards Sufism."](Farman, Usul-e-Din, 1899)
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mazhar



Joined: 22 Dec 2013
Posts: 216

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear kmaherali,
In response to your posting on Jan 12, 2015 regarding ITV and an article published in Life Magazine, you have written, I quote," of course the interview and magazine audience is for general public including Ismailis." When you wrote including Ismailis obviously that means Ismailis should accept the SHAHADA in its pure form and H I is not living God.Also your notion suggests that H I has dual policy one for general public and other for His followers.
You have asked me a question," Do you really expect some one sign a document saying He is God?" kmaherali, you might not have read the posting addressed to me by
Nuseri in which he hurled a quetion at me, I quote," MHI has not signed the disclaimer, show me the proof of His signature?" Hence in response I asked him does he has any signed document of H I where He has claimed to be God. You mistook my response.
Kmaherali, you have quoted a Farman of MHI's visit of RC at darkhana jk in Mumbai on Nov 9th, 1967. H I asked students," What is the meaning of ' malikin naas' of surah Naas." The student replied meaning of malkin naas as' master of people.' You have elaborated it wrongly. In your wordings what you have quoted," If the Imam himself says he is malikin naas, does it not imply from the Quranic ayat that he is also Rabbun naas." Have you lost your mind? This is totally your false assertion and statement, this comes under blasphemy.Please read this Farman( also every one) in Kalam e Imam e Zamaan 1957 -2009 ; page # 264. Let me quote an excerption from the Farmaan H I made during the same visit on Nov 8th,1967 at Wadi jk. H I said," And those of you who have done well in wordly manner, remember it is due to ALLAH's blessings and you should be grateful and you should thank ALLAH in your prayers," Quotation from Kalam e Imam e Zamaan, 1957 -2009; page # 263.
Kmaherali in your same posting you have mentioned, I quote," If Mansoor could elevate him self and become one with ALLAH, don't you think that the Imam whom we consider pure in our Du'a would not be one with ALLAH as well" Sir, you have taken totally U turn. Being ALLAH and merge with ALLAH ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
You are talking about two different entities to merge with each other. One is at highest level beyond imagination and other try to elevate and merge. Mansoor said unal haqq but Imam has not.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20049

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:
Dear kmaherali,
In response to your posting on Jan 12, 2015 regarding ITV and an article published in Life Magazine, you have written, I quote," of course the interview and magazine audience is for general public including Ismailis." When you wrote including Ismailis obviously that means Ismailis should accept the SHAHADA in its pure form and H I is not living God.Also your notion suggests that H I has dual policy one for general public and other for His followers..

I never suggested that we should not follow the Shahada. Of course we believe in the Shahada that is Allah as one Light who is manifest in the Imam. Yes he would have a dual policy. His murids are generally people with an appropriate background and knowledge of Imamat and the rest of the majority do not have the background. Hence the Imam expresses himself differently. For example he would read prepared speeches when speaking to outsiders whereas he would speek extempore with the Jamats when making Farmans.
mazhar wrote:

You have asked me a question," Do you really expect some one sign a document saying He is God?" kmaherali, you might not have read the posting addressed to me by
Nuseri in which he hurled a quetion at me, I quote," MHI has not signed the disclaimer, show me the proof of His signature?" Hence in response I asked him does he has any signed document of H I where He has claimed to be God. You mistook my response.
OK I am sorry I misunderstood.
mazhar wrote:

Kmaherali, you have quoted a Farman of MHI's visit of RC at darkhana jk in Mumbai on Nov 9th, 1967. H I asked students," What is the meaning of ' malikin naas' of surah Naas." The student replied meaning of malkin naas as' master of people.' You have elaborated it wrongly. In your wordings what you have quoted," If the Imam himself says he is malikin naas, does it not imply from the Quranic ayat that he is also Rabbun naas." Have you lost your mind? This is totally your false assertion and statement, this comes under blasphemy.

There is nothing blasphemous about it. It is a simple logical deduction. You just have to use your intellect. Sometimes there are batini ways of expressing the truth.
mazhar wrote:

Please read this Farman( also every one) in Kalam e Imam e Zamaan 1957 -2009 ; page # 264. Let me quote an excerption from the Farmaan H I made during the same visit on Nov 8th,1967 at Wadi jk. H I said," And those of you who have done well in wordly manner, remember it is due to ALLAH's blessings and you should be grateful and you should thank ALLAH in your prayers," Quotation from Kalam e Imam e Zamaan, 1957 -2009; page # 263..
Imam as a Pir is telling us to thank Allah. There is no contradiction. It depends on how one understands Allah. It is personal as Agakhani mentioned.
mazhar wrote:

Kmaherali in your same posting you have mentioned, I quote," If Mansoor could elevate him self and become one with ALLAH, don't you think that the Imam whom we consider pure in our Du'a would not be one with ALLAH as well" Sir, you have taken totally U turn. Being ALLAH and merge with ALLAH ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.
You are talking about two different entities to merge with each other. One is at highest level beyond imagination and other try to elevate and merge. Mansoor said unal haqq but Imam has not.
The definition of merge is: "combine or cause to combine to form a single entity." You become ONE and not separate.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20049

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:
Mansoor said unal haqq but Imam has not.
So you are saying that Mansur became one with Allah whereas the Imam is not just because he has not said it?
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Admin: Ya Ali Madad.

In Last 15 day you have deleted 3 of my total postings ( loaded missiles) and censored n moderated two of them.

It is a good action.I wish you had that in place from day one since this forum
section started.
My last posting done this morning which was addressed to Mazar.

You could have removed any unwarranted lines and kept the posting alive.
The recent incident in Paris has also dampened our spirit.
you can mail him in private mail.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
tret was I think assumed visualizing Sufi as dervish who shun the world nad hanged around mausoleums with moral n civic responsibility.
I consider myself as a Sufi.
It correlated to our baatin aspect of our tariqa.
Is is searching more of imam our of heart/soul rather than mind.The mind has it own limitation.
In baatin sphere it the soul which connects to ALI/GOD and not the mind.
I feel for progress of soul the reading end and practicals of Ibadat,khidmat
n aashique come as fuel for advancement.
All these can go on with living one's normal life of balancing din n duniya.
they are in a way puppets of ALI as soul is ruling over mind.
You will observe all regards and truth of ALI came from prophets n pirs
whose soul spoke out and not collating the data n books around them.
so the difference between a tariqati Ismaili n sufi is there their expression
which is visible.
Best part our tariqa is we value n get inspired by blessed Sufi material of prophets n certified Pir n Dai's.
they complement many ayats n farmans in simple essay or poetic couplet
form.
Every Ismaili unlike in other religion can aspire to progress own's soul
to the highest level.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20049

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mazhar wrote:
Please read this Farman( also every one) in Kalam e Imam e Zamaan 1957 -2009 ; page # 264. Let me quote an excerption from the Farmaan H I made during the same visit on Nov 8th,1967 at Wadi jk. H I said," And those of you who have done well in wordly manner, remember it is due to ALLAH's blessings and you should be grateful and you should thank ALLAH in your prayers," Quotation from Kalam e Imam e Zamaan, 1957 -2009; page # 263.
MHI also gives his own blessings on many occasions:
"I give to each and everyone of you here, and your families My warmest, best affectionate blessings, for your happiness, your long lives, your good health, the peace of the Ruhani members of your families, strength on Sirat al Mustaqeem, worldly happiness and Barakat, Barakat, Barakat, Barakat and blessings for Mushkil Asaan. Khanavadan, Khanavadan, Khanavadan."
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