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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Ginans and Farmans are the same.
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Ginans and Farmans are the same.

 
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mahebubchatur



Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:06 am    Post subject: Ginans and Farmans are the same. Reply with quote

Imams give Farmans. Pirs incorporated Farmans in Ginans, and diseminated them to everyone. Ginan means knowledge, and wisdom in Farmans)

Meaning of 3 verses of Asha Jee recited regarding dua 3 times a day
Ginans and Farmans are the same (as MSMS and Hazar Imam have said)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not forget the evening prayer time
That is Guidance (Farman) from the Master (Imam e zaman)
This is the time given to you (by Imam)
It is a window for you to enter & experience spirituality(din)

Oh Exalted Lord (Noor e Imam), you are the eternal
You are the Lord of the souls
you alone have the full knowledge of eternity

Know this is the second time prescribed to you for dua (prayers)
A time, when a little time of the night has passed, after sunset.
This is a window which leads you in the presence of the Lord (Noor e Imam)
you will be enlightened by the guidance you receive from the Lord (Noor e Imam)

Oh Exalted Lord (Noor e Imam), you are the eternal
You are the Lord of the souls
you alone have the full knowledge of eternity

Know that this is the third time of prayer prescribed for you
This time is before dawn, in the early hours of the morning
This is your window to Paradise (enlightenment/deedar)
This you can attain through guidance from the true guide (Imam).

Oh Exalted Lord (Noor e Imam), you are the eternal
You are the Lord of the souls
you alone have the full knowledge of eternity
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:53 am    Post subject: Re: Ginans and Farmans are the same. Reply with quote

mahebubchatur wrote:
Imams give Farmans. Pirs incorporated Farmans in Ginans, and diseminated them to everyone. Ginan means knowledge, and wisdom in Farmans)

Meaning of 3 verses of Asha Jee recited regarding dua 3 times a day
Ginans and Farmans are the same (as MSMS and Hazar Imam have said)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not forget the evening prayer time
That is Guidance (Farman) from the Master (Imam e zaman)
This is the time given to you (by Imam)
It is a window for you to enter & experience spirituality(din)

Oh Exalted Lord (Noor e Imam), you are the eternal
You are the Lord of the souls
you alone have the full knowledge of eternity

Know this is the second time prescribed to you for dua (prayers)
A time, when a little time of the night has passed, after sunset.
This is a window which leads you in the presence of the Lord (Noor e Imam)
you will be enlightened by the guidance you receive from the Lord (Noor e Imam)

Oh Exalted Lord (Noor e Imam), you are the eternal
You are the Lord of the souls
you alone have the full knowledge of eternity

Know that this is the third time of prayer prescribed for you
This time is before dawn, in the early hours of the morning
This is your window to Paradise (enlightenment/deedar)
This you can attain through guidance from the true guide (Imam).

Oh Exalted Lord (Noor e Imam), you are the eternal
You are the Lord of the souls
you alone have the full knowledge of eternity



Beautiful!
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actualy we also have in manuscripts Farmans made by Pirs, sometimes in presence of the Imam during Didar and Darbar.

Hazar Imam Shah Karim once said: "My Farmans and My Ginans"
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a related thread at:


Ginan a conversion tool only or more?

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1479&highlight=quintessence+ginans
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
My question is
Are Ayats of Koran and quotes of genuine Hadith of prophet the same?
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First tell us which books are you consider as a genuine Hadiths?

You means Sihan Sitta then you are wrong there are many hadiths even in Sahi Bukhari which are not genuine and unacceptable.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
I was to differentiate between word of GOD/Imam and words of Prophet/
Pirs.
THEY ARE NOT SAME.
If one says my car,my house.he mean he owns the car n the house but
both house n car is different.
Admin posted an incomplete line.(Dangerous strategy).
I feel Ginans and Farmans are NOT THE SAME.
I am willing to take the debate forward.
Pir n prophets can eer in their messages not Imams.
Ginans are R traditions while Farman are R Tariqa.
the definition of both the words are DIFFERENT.
I have observed many Khoja Ismailis equating their passion for Ginans
with their Imaan on Farman.

It is dangerous as one tries have dual power house holding over one belief (Imaan).

IMAAN TO SIRF SIRF ALI PEE.

BAAKI SUB KO SALAAM AUR SALVAT.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khojas respect of Ginans comes from the respect of farmans. One respects the saying of both parents, those of the Mother Pir and those of the Father Imam.

Some kids however have no manners and only respect their father and do not miss one occasion to criticise their mother.

They are the looser because the love of the mother of her kids sometimes saves the kids from the wrath of their father when they make mistakes.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is hard to find out in your above post whether ginans and farmans are same or different? Give us your answer in yes or no rather then giving confused answer.
As per my belief both are same.
one is comes from one divine holder whom we knows as imam, the other one (ginan) comes from another divine holder we call them pirs, they both have authority one is from paternal and other is from maternal side.
the outcomes from both sides are same. Period.
If yoi like farmans better than ginans that is fine and if you prefer ginans over farmans then that is fine also. I bet you show me a single ginans which goes against the any imams farman? Show me any farmans which goes against any ginan teaching?
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

If yoi like farmans better than ginans that is fine and if you prefer ginans over farmans then that is fine also. I bet you show me a single ginans which goes against the any imams farman? Show me any farmans which goes against any ginan teaching?


Why do we have to be always judgmental, even about Farmaan? Why do we have to always compare? Why do we have to always prove something to be right and other thing to be wrong. Why not simply benefit from both? I am sure -- looking at the above ginan -- ginans are as beautiful and meaningful as Farmaans. I don't want to compare ginan, qasida, a beautiful peace of article by our Pirs or Dais or Farameen. I am simply trying to read and reflect upon them, as opposed to sit down and say, oh this is better than that.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Imam never makes Farmans. It is the Pir who makes the Farmans. At present MHI is both the Imam and Pir. In his capacity as the Pir he makes the Farmans. Ginans are composed by the Pirs, hence both can be considered equal. However the Farmans of the current Imam supercede the Ginans if there is a difference on any issue.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To team Haqiqati:Ya Ali Madad.
I read all the postings.
Firstly there are ginans by many sayed n one sayeeda, the have composed beautiful Ginan.they were not apoointed as Pirs,etc.
Are thier word siad by them is absolute ordinance on Ismailis.
NO NO NO N NEVER.
For a faithful Ismaili,Farmans are absolute ordinance from the Imam.
Ginan are inspirational material and not an ordinance by itself.

1. In Karachi Imam SMS ( as heard by me). in relation to Ginan
of "Ali to alivar motha".
It is said Imam gavr farman to BURN those ginans.
Many ginans which went overboard or the so called Pirs ans dia got carried
have been removed or banned for reading.
Ginan are preaching material vaild fro those times ans many of them in essence today also.
They are not farman n rubbish work of them cannot be related to Farmans,same goes for Wajah E Din by Nasir Khusraw,
It is bannned by Pakistan tariqa board.

2.There was one popular Alwaez, who equated the status of appointed Pirs
to MHI STATUS.
they preached that ginan were greater than farmans.
HE WAS SUSPENDED BY MHI.WHY????????????.

I assume that split of khoja ishnashari may have happened becoz then Missionaries were harping more on ginans than Imam SMS farmans
( which are gold mine).
I acknowledge n respect both ginans n qasidas but cannot place them as same level as Farmans.
One word from ALI can make you all marfati,
Pirs n Dai have already blessed you as Haqiqatis.
A question from Dean is more important for Final exams then
then entrance exam for same university.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To team Haqiqati:Ya Ali Madad.
I read all the postings.
Firstly there are ginans by many sayed n one sayeeda, the have composed beautiful Ginan.they were not apoointed as Pirs,etc.
Are thier word siad by them is absolute ordinance on Ismailis.
NO NO NO N NEVER.
For a faithful Ismaili,Farmans are absolute ordinance from the Imam.
Ginan are inspirational material and not an ordinance by itself.

1. In Karachi Imam SMS ( as heard by me). in relation to Ginan
of "Ali to alivar motha".
It is said Imam gavr farman to BURN those ginans.
Many ginans which went overboard or the so called Pirs ans dia got carried
have been removed or banned for reading.
Ginan are preaching material vaild fro those times ans many of them in essence today also.
They are not farman n rubbish work of them cannot be related to Farmans,same goes for Wajah E Din by Nasir Khusraw,
It is bannned by Pakistan tariqa board.

2.There was one popular Alwaez, who equated the status of appointed Pirs
to MHI STATUS.
they preached that ginan were greater than farmans.
HE WAS SUSPENDED BY MHI.WHY????????????.

I assume that split of khoja ishnashari may have happened becoz then Missionaries were harping more on ginans than Imam SMS farmans
( which are gold mine).
I acknowledge n respect both ginans n qasidas but cannot place them as same level as Farmans.
One word from ALI can make you all marfati,
Pirs n Dai have already blessed you as Haqiqatis.
A question from Dean is more important for Final exams then
then entrance exam for same university.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To team Haqiqati:Ya Ali Madad.
I read all the postings.
Firstly there are ginans by many sayed n one sayeeda, the have composed beautiful Ginan.they were not apoointed as Pirs,etc.
Are thier word siad by them is absolute ordinance on Ismailis.
NO NO NO N NEVER.
For a faithful Ismaili,Farmans are absolute ordinance from the Imam.
Ginan are inspirational material and not an ordinance by itself.

1. In Karachi Imam SMS ( as heard by me). in relation to Ginan
of "Ali to alivar motha".
It is said Imam gavr farman to BURN those ginans.
Many ginans which went overboard or the so called Pirs ans dia got carried
have been removed or banned for reading.
Ginan are preaching material vaild fro those times ans many of them in essence today also.
They are not farman n rubbish work of them cannot be related to Farmans,same goes for Wajah E Din by Nasir Khusraw,
It is bannned by Pakistan tariqa board.

2.There was one popular Alwaez, who equated the status of appointed Pirs
to MHI STATUS.
they preached that ginan were greater than farmans.
HE WAS SUSPENDED BY MHI.WHY????????????.

I assume that split of khoja ishnashari may have happened becoz then Missionaries were harping more on ginans than Imam SMS farmans
( which are gold mine).
I acknowledge n respect both ginans n qasidas but cannot place them as same level as Farmans.
One word from ALI can make you all marfati,
Pirs n Dai have already blessed you as Haqiqatis.
A question from Dean is more important for Final exams then
then entrance exam for same university.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
same goes for Wajah E Din by Nasir Khusraw,
It is bannned by Pakistan tariqa board.


And yet it is studied today by IIS... Don't speak out of ignorance to feed your greed, but study and learn your history.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:

1. In Karachi Imam SMS ( as heard by me). in relation to Ginan
of "Ali to alivar motha".
It is said Imam gavr farman to BURN those ginans.


One should not speak out of ignorance. You heard wrong and Conficius said "One lie told, thousand times repeated". So always be carreful in what you post.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
same goes for Wajah E Din by Nasir Khusraw,
It is bannned by Pakistan tariqa board.


When it is published by IIS, I will send you the link if you are interested. It's in its final stage of getting released inshallah. Stay tuned!
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
2.There was one popular Alwaez, who equated the status of appointed Pirs
to MHI STATUS.
they preached that ginan were greater than farmans.
HE WAS SUSPENDED BY MHI.WHY????????????.



About the pir status:-
He told right, no question or doubt in his comments if any one really knows the status of pirs and imams in ismailism! and one consider him as an Ismailis.

BTW: I never heard that he told that ginans are greater than farmans I heard all his available waez many times.

About his suspension:

He was never suspended by MHI! but by some members of council and Tariqa board of a one country banned his waez for at least two weeks because he had delivered strict and strong waez on drinking and dasond and many members were drinking and they were lake in giving dasond! so they feel bad about that waez and banned him not to deliver such kind waez in that particular JK and in very strong language.

He wrote a letter to MHI about this event and MHI ordered to that T.Board to reinstate him as an alwaez in that particular JK as he was ever before and as per my thinking he was remained an al-waez till his last day but he was never suspended never ever. *

About this tiny things Pakis made a big story of it. I have noticed that only Pakis didn't like him for some unknown reason!

Use your common scense: if he ever has been suspended by MHI then he would not have kept delivering warezes till the last day of his life? there were many waez delivered after that events and MHI and Tariqa Board had not kept silence for his waezes after his suspension!

if he had suspended that MHI had not ordered a special "RUHANI TASBIH" each and every Jamat Khanas his salvation in the world.

As Admin and Tret wrote above about you : " :You should not speak out of ignorance, You heard wrong and Confucius said "One lie told, thousand times repeated".

So, no one should have to give any bold allegation without proper knowledge of any events!
* This event he quoted in his one waez. the names of country and Jamat Khanas I intentionally ignored.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
which is the lie.
1. withdrawal of ginans with the verse of 'ALI thi alivar mota.''
2. and suspension of alwaez of uttering rubbish.
BOTH ARE TRUE.
I CHALLENGE ON IT.
trying to deny n cover the truth with some sayings of xyz.
is the first sign of weakness and cowardice.

As for IIS, they have do something to keep their FAT SALARIES going.
from 35 yers they doing research on Nasir Khusraw.
He was out n out ALI ALI( nothing less).he did even wasted his breath on the word 'Lah' alongside it.
IIS thinks 'H. ALI' lived only 1370 years back.

There are certain content which PIr n Dai went overboard.
they were human beings with divine blessing not GOD for that period
or till date.
SO NOW THE WRITINGS of dai Khusraw is researched,it must be happening from part of it.
Something is better than nothing for IIS.
Publication is welcomed.
I will shortly make a posting on Dai Nasir Khusraw.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:

As for IIS, they have do something to keep their FAT SALARIES going.
from 35 yers they doing research on Nasir Khusraw.
He was out n out ALI ALI( nothing less).he did even wasted his breath on the word 'Lah' alongside it.
IIS thinks 'H. ALI' lived only 1370 years back.

There are certain content which PIr n Dai went overboard.
they were human beings with divine blessing not GOD for that period
or till date.
SO NOW THE WRITINGS of dai Khusraw is researched,it must be happening from part of it.
Something is better than nothing for IIS.
Publication is welcomed.
I will shortly make a posting on Dai Nasir Khusraw.


First of all IIS is part of Imamat-i Institutions, like any other institutions, such as AKDN, and many others and as such under the supervision of MHI. As I said, teaching of Pirs and Dais are coming from the knowledge of the Imams and is never against our tariqa. On the contrary it is to teach us about our great tariqa of Ismaili. What we believe stays in our heart, personal to us. What we share in these forums are our knowledge. The work of IIS is to be able to best understand and explain our doctrine philosophically and intellectually. What's wrong with that? Instead of rejecting what is against your belief, why not try and study it?

Here's what Mauwlana Rumi says about the truth.


بر لبش قفلست و در دل راز ها
لب خموش و دل پر از آواز ها
عارفان که جام حق نوشیده اند
راز ها دانسته و پوشیده اند
هر که را اسرار حق آموختند
مهر کردند و دهانش دوختند


Translation:

Lock in his mouth, and mysteries in his heart
lips silent, heart full of voices
Mystics who drunk the wine of the truth
they know all mysteries, yet conceal them
Those who have learned the secrets of the truth
their mouth is Swed and sealed.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. withdrawal of ginans with the verse of 'ALI thi alivar mota.''
2. and suspension of alwaez of uttering rubbish.


First of all there is no " ALI" word used in that book called "Manhar Granth" which was banned or ordered to burned out by SMS!! because of misunderstanding of the word "Thi" but the real word used is "Hari".

The whole sentence is as below:-
"Hari thi Harijan Mota, Hari trigur , Harijan trigounr nahi" .
I do not see any thing wrong in this sentence at all!, as a big time Gujarati scholar and a researcher I, can say that: the word 'THI" can also used as "THAKI" if you take as 'THAKI" then you will not find any mistake in it but majority jamats during that time took its wrong meaning of the word "THI"
So SMS ordered to burned out in that the case, otherwise it is a great Granth.

The following old Gujarati dictionary also shows the meaning of word 'THI" as 'THAKI"
થી
ક્રમાંક વ્યુત્પત્તિ વ્યાકરણ અર્થ
૧. [ પ્રા. ] स्त्री. સ્ત્રી; ભાર્યા.
૨. अ. ( વ્યાકરણ ) ત્રીજી અને પાંચમી વિભક્તિનો પ્રત્યય. સંસ્કૃતમાં તદ સર્વનામનું સપ્તમીનું એકવચન તસ્મિન થાય છે. એ રૂપ ઉપરથી પ્રાકૃત અને અપભ્રંશનું રૂપ તહિં થયું છે. આમાંના હ મહાપ્રાણની અસરથી ત્‍ અલ્પપ્રાણનો થ્‍ મહાપ્રાણ થઈ થી રૂપ થયું છે. મૂળ સપત્મીનો તે અર્થ પંચમીનો થયો છે. થઉ, થકઉ એ જૂના પ્રત્યયો ઉપરથી થી, થકી આવ્યા છે.
૩. अ. થકી; લીધે; માટે.
૪. अ. ના કરતાં.


I, still remember that Admin already gave us the clarification of above sentence and also gave us the real reason to ordered burn out the remaining copies of that book by SMS so, I just give you a brief summary but interesting readers can click on below link and find out more.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=8577&highlight=manhar

2, About the suspension of a great, great Alwaez Abu Ali ( ever have to come) is just a wrong allegation and big lies from most of those jealous peoples who din't understand him properly and didn't liked him. period.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

The whole sentence is as below:-
"Hari thi Harijan Mota, Hari trigur , Harijan trigounr nahi" .
I do not see any thing wrong in this sentence at all!, as a big time Gujarati scholar and a researcher I, can say that: the word 'THI" can also used as "THAKI" if you take as 'THAKI" then you will not find any mistake in it but majority jamats during that time took its wrong meaning of the word "THI"[/b] So SMS ordered to burned out in that the case, otherwise it is a great Granth.


dear agakhani - first, I have no idea and knowledge of this ginan and the context. However, simply from observing what / how you describe the situation. Here's what I understand.

So, you are saying nothing wrong with this, but the copies were burnt, as MSMS ordered?

So, if nothing wrong with this, then why MSMS ordered this to be burnt? Are you saying that MSMS simply listened to the jama'at at that time who didn't know, and taking their word and ordered this to be burnt?

I believe Imam always knows. So, if MSMS ordered it to be burnt, there must be seriously something wrong with this. Again, I have no idea what this ginan says, but just observing the discussion. My 2 cents.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is already a lot of discussion on this matter please just do a search and learn that SMS said burn it IF it says that the disciple is better then the Master. Which obviously this Granth does not say.

Read this

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=46036#46036
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tret,
I really think you are a serious Ismaili who really want to know more about ginans and about Das Avatars, may be in past I take you wrong but not any more.
The answer of your question is given by Admin, so follow that link but after reading if you still have any question please let me know.
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