Français  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - 7 Proofs for the Imamat of Isma'il ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

7 Proofs for the Imamat of Isma'il ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Doctrines
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ismailignosis



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:09 pm    Post subject: 7 Proofs for the Imamat of Isma'il ibn Ja'far al-Sadiq Reply with quote

As you are aware, the Ismailis and the Twelver Shia differ on the question of who was the Imam following Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq. The below article presents Seven Arguments which demonstrate the succession of Imam Isma'il ibn Ja'far to Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq. The article also includes some audio excerpts from Mawlana Hazar Imam's interviews on this subject.

Read the full article here: ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who-succeeded-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-seven-proofs-for-the-imamat-of-imam-ismail-ibn-jafar/

The material will also come in handy when explaining the differences between the Shia Ismailis and other Shia like the Twelvers, and the rationale for the Ismaili positions.

"Our branch of Shia Islam, in that particular generation of the family, accepted the legitimacy of the eldest son, Isma‘il, as being the appointed Imam to succeed and that is why they are known as Ismailis."
- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV
(Forty-Ninth Hereditary Imam of the Shi‘i Isma‘ili Muslims)

Read the full article here: ismailignosis.com/2014/10/02/who-succeeded-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-seven-proofs-for-the-imamat-of-imam-ismail-ibn-jafar/

Summary of the Seven Proofs:

Proof #1: Imam Ja‘far designated Mawlana; Ismail as the next Imam by the rule of nass as per Twelver, Ismaili, Sunni and academic sources.

Proof #2: The only way to deny the nass of Mawlānā Isma‘il is through contradictory hadiths presented in later Twelver hadith books.

Proof #3: Isma‘il’s death before Imam Ja‘far is not confirmed and may have been staged to protect him — as he was reportedly seen by eyewitnesses after his alleged death.

Proof #4: Even if Isma‘il had died before his father, the Imamat continued in Isma‘il’s son, Muhammad ibn Isma‘il, whom Isma‘il had appointed as his own successor.

Proof #5: Earliest Shi‘i hadiths lack the mention of Twelve Imams but instead predict exactly the first eighteen Imams in the Isma‘ili lineage of Imamat.

Proof #6: With the exception of the Nizari Ismaili Imamat, all other Shi‘i Imamat lineages have hidden Imams. This contradicts the Qur’anic definition of Imamat which requires the Imam always be present and manifest (mubin) in the world.

Proof #7: Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV is the forty-ninth hereditary Imam of Shi‘i Islam in direct, documented, lineal descent from Mawlana Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far al-Sadiq. As the only present (hadir), manifest (mubin) and living (mawjud) hereditary Imam, with a documented and validated lineage, Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni’s very existence is itself confirmation of his Imamat and that of his ancestors.

Taken individually or collectively, these Seven Proofs demonstrate that the legitimate successor and true Imam after the Imam Ja‘far al-Sadiq is Mawlana Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far and that the Present and Living Imam of all Shi‘i Muslims must be the direct lineal descendant of Isma‘il ibn Ja‘far.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
mahebubchatur



Joined: 13 Jan 2014
Posts: 227

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:59 am    Post subject: Imam and the intellect Reply with quote

In order to establish who the Imam is , we should understand first the concept of creation and "Amr"


Abu Ya'qub Ishaq as-Sijistani (4) in his epistle Tuhfat al-mustajibin says that Divine Will (al-amr) was the first and only thing to issue out of God.

It is also called knowledge (al-ilm), Word (al-kalima), and Unity (al-wahda).


This Amr, he continues, is the source of creation, or, in other words, it is the first cause, or the cause of causes (illat al-ilal).

"His Amr", says the Quran, "when He desires a thing, is to say to it "Be", and it is

God, has by His own nature a Will. This Will necessarily exists by virtue of the existence of God. For if God exists, He must have a Will.

As the human intellect implies that it has intelligence, God implies that He has Will.

And as intelligence necessarily exists by the existence of the human intellect which originates it, for we cannot imagine an intellect without intelligence, likewise God's Will necessarily exists by virtue of the existence of God.

Thus this Will of God is, by its very meaning, the source and cause of every existing being.

Therefore it is the primary cause of this existence God being its "causer" (all or mu'ill) as well as its originator . In other words this Will is God's word that He willed.

Now this word, in order to realize itself in this world must be manifested to man. For in order that man be guided through the right path, he should be enlightened by God's Will or Word.

It is to him (man)...the ever living guide.


In order to show that this Word of God must always be Manifested in this world, the reliance is on the Qur'an which says:


"And He made it a word enduring among His posterity."

Another Qur'anic verse states:


"O men, a proof has now come to you from your Lord;
We have sent down to you a Manifest light."


Proof (burhan) and Manifest light (Nur mubin) are also interpreted allegorically to denote the Imam of the time and age ...


This Will or Word of God, which Ahmad Hamid al-Din al-Kirmani calls the First Intellect (al-aql al-awwal), and the First Existent (al-mawjud al-awwal) (10), is the First Cause of existence; thus it necessarily exists.

"If the existence of the first is not established, the second would not exist. And if the existence of he second is not established, the third would not exist.(Nasr u din Tusi has re inforced a similar point in his work)

Therefore, the second and third only exist by reason of the existence of what is first to them, and a cause to their existence.

The existence of the third, the fourth and other existing beings is, therefore, a proof for the existence of a first to them, and a cause without which nothing would exist.

By the existence of these, the existence of a first principle is proven, from which existence other existing beings resulted.

This first principle we call the First Intellect or the First "Existenteings" resulted. ..and so this then explains what is meant by what Nabi said when he said that his Noor was the very first thing to be created !!

This first principle we call the first Intellect or the First Existent whose existence is not by itself but rather by its creation by the Transcendent, may He be praised."

This First Intellect (al-aql al-awwal) or the First Existent (al-Mawjud al-awwal) did not come from God by emanation (fayd), but rather by ibda:

which is "An act of complete creation at once", as P.J. Vatikiotis states , "having no previous similitude to itself." P.J. Vatikiotis translates ibda as origination.

He says, "Origination is not like the radiation of light from the sun, which depends upon a material basis, but like intelligence, which is inherent in a nonmaterial and formless existence"

And since the quiddity of the Transcendent, may He be praised, is not from another quiddity, He transcends being qualified by plurality. Thus he is Not of two things.

And if He is not of two things, that which had issued out Him could not be by emanation. ..but by Ibdah !

"Then, it is self-evident to the reason and its principles that which is simpler and less in plurality... is more genuine.

It follows that the emanation would be simpler than that from which it emanated, for the emanation would be one thing, whereas that from which it emanated would be two things...

Then, al-Kirmani asserts that this First Intellect came into existence by virtue of the existence of God. Being God's Will, this First Intellect came into existence by God's Power." For Intellect", is that being which was issued into existence out of the Power from which Origination resulted.

This origination is the reality of the Intellect and its essence" ..that is why Islam is a faith of the Intellect and NOt of Rote !
.
As for the nature of this Origination (ibda), it is beyond man's understanding.

As-Suri, in his important poem al-Qasida as-suriyya says:

"Our saying Ibda means

"An act of Will whose essence we do not know".

He continues to show that Ibda does not mean that God underwent a change:

"One cannot say about the Transcendent, the Exalted
That He was without action,

He who holds such a belief, has gone astray."


Then al-Kirmani proceeds to show that the act of Origination (ibda) is not apart from the Originator (God). It is only an aspect of Him. He says:

"Since there are many acts, and since every act which comes into being acquires a name that differentiates it from the others, according to the nature of the act, and since Origination is an act... it was given this name to denote that it exists... from nothing prior to it."


Therefore, Ibda is not preceded by anything. The act and He who performed it (al-Mubdi) are in a sense the same.

("HE is HE and yet HE is NOT HIM.."!!!)

The result of the act too, i.e. that which was originated (al-mubda al-awwal) is the same as the Originator and the Origination.

(Therefore) the Originator (the source of Origination) is both the Originated and the Origination."

It follows from the above mentioned passages, that the Originator i.e. God, the Originated, i.e. the First Intellect, and the act of Origination are one.

Thus, we have three hypostases of a "trinity", three real and distinct subsistences in one undivided essence of God....(Obey Allah! Nabi and Olil Amr !)....can be better understood now...

In contemplating himself, the First Originated Being knew that he was the Originator's Activity, the First Being. By this knowledge of himself, a light illuminated and radiated from him as a result of the feeling happiness (ightibat) he had when he contemplated himself.

This light that radiated from him is what is the First "Emanating Being" (al-munba'ith al-awwal). It is the first being that emanated from the First Intellect.

Consequently, it is second in existence to the First Intellect, i.e. the First Originated Being (al-mubda al-awwal).

Hence it is called the Second Intellect (al-aql ath-thani).

Also it is called the Soul of the First Intellect, and the Universal Soul (an-nafs al-kulliyya).


Now, from the First Intellect and the Second emanated a Third Intellect. With this Intellect started what Professor Henry Corbin calls "le drame dans le ciel".

This Third intellect started to question the ontological anteriority of the First and Second Intellects.

In totality there are TEN Intellects....

These ten Intellects are in charge of the physical world (alam al-jism). The First Intellect is in charge of the sphere of spheres (falak al-aflak), the Second of the sphere of the fixed stars, the Third of the sphere of Saturn, the Fourth of that of Jupiter, the Fifth of that of Mars, the Sixth of that of the sun, the Seventh of that of Venus, the Eighth of that of Mercury, the ninth of that of the moon, and the Tenth, , is in charge of the sub-lunary world.

We must remember, however, that each Intellect is inclusive (kulli) of all the inferior ones, while each of the inferior ones is included (juz'i) in the superior ones.

The Tenth Intellect, corresponds in the sub-lunary world, i.e. the earth, of which he is in charge, to his human homologue Adam, who is said to have fallen from paradise.

That is why there is the Spiritual Adam (Adam ar-ruhani), and in contrast to it, also a "terrestrial" Adam.

This "terrestrial" Adam is considered both the epiphanic form (mazhar) and the veil of the Spiritual Adam,

In the World of Religion (alam ad-din), he is the Imam. and oversees the esoteric hierarchy of the World of Religion in which the "terrestrial" Adam holds the rank of Imam.

This World of Religion consists of ten rank-holders, each corresponding respectively to one of the ten Intellects of the Intelligible World. These are:


1. the Proclaimer (an-natiq); his function is to proclaim the revelation (at-tanzil);

2. the Foundation (al-asas); his function is to interpret the revelation (at-ta'wil); he is so called because he is the foundation of the inward knowledge (ilm al-batin); (this is at the primary level)

3. the Imam; also carries on this inward knowledge and leads the community; (at the secondary level)

4. the Gate (al-bab); he decides the meaning of the discourse (fasl al-khitab), i.e. he is a head teacher in the da'wa; (PIR o Mursheed)

5. the Proof (al-hujja); he supervises the missionaries and reveals the exegesis; (PIR o Mursheed)

6. the Missionary of the Message (da'i al-balagh); he is in charge of dialectical and philosophical teaching;

7. the Missionary General (ad-da'i al-mutlaq); he teaches the inner meaning of the doctrine..(This is what majority have at this time)

8. the Limited Missionary (ad-da'i al-mahdud); he teaches the practical ritual services and directs the inferior functionaries;

9. the Licencee-General (al-madhun al-mutlaq); he takes the oath and the covenant (al-ahd wal mithaq) from the proselytes and teaches the preliminaries for higher knowledge (adab ad-din);

10. the Limited Licencee (al-ma'dhun al-mahdud); he is in charge of preaching the doctrine by posing questions and arguments (mukasara) in order to attracts the proselytes.


Thus the Natiq, Asas and Imam correspond respectively to their celestial archetypes: the First, Second and Third Intellects....and cannot be "absent" !

As we have seen above, God's Word must in order to realize itself in this world, be Manifested to man.

The Imam who is the guide of the believers (those who comply with God's Word) is therefore the embodiment of this "Word" (Amr).

He is God's Word manifested. !!!

The Imam, therefore, must always be present (muqim) in this world in order to guide the believers.

In order to show that this Word of God must always be manifested in this world, the reliance is on the Qur'anic verse , "And He made it a word enduring among His posterity."

The Word of God, as was shown above, is the First Intellect or the First Originated Being .

It follows that the Imam is the First Intellect manifested in this world.

Consequently, the Imam is to the World of Religion (alam ad-din) what the First Intellect is to the Intelligible World. "C'est qu'en effet", as Professor Henry Corbin says,

"le prophète en tant que natiq, énonciateur d'un shari'at, a le rang et la fonction du da'i 'convoquant' les hommes vers I'Imam qui est le sens secret de la shari'at qu'il énonce. C'est pourquoi chaque prophète, au principe de sa vocation da'i, est allé à la rencontre du Hojjat de I'Imam de son temps, lequel est envers lui dans le même rapport que Khezr-Elie, le prophète initiateur de Moise, envers celui-ci."
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:26 am    Post subject: Re: Imam and the intellect Reply with quote

mahebubchatur wrote:

In totality there are TEN Intellects....


The theory of 10 intellect's of Al-Kirmani was never endorsed by other Ismaili Da'is and philosophers.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This question is for ismailignosis and for others also


mahebubchatur wrote:
In order to establish who the Imam is , we should understand first the concept of creation and "Amr"


mahebubchatur wrote:

Abu Ya'qub Ishaq as-Sijistani (4) in his epistle Tuhfat al-mustajibin says that Divine Will (al-amr) was the first and only thing to issue out of God.


mahebubchatur wrote:

In totality there are TEN Intellects....


tret wrote:
The theory of 10 intellect's of Al-Kirmani was never endorsed by other Ismaili Da'is and philosophers.


In order to recognize "Imam of the Time", does one really has to understand all these ismaili metaphysics by dais who even contradicted themselves about the theories they developed?

If not, then how does one recognize the "Imam of the Time"?
Assuming there is more than one person claiming to be the "Imam of the Time"
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our responsibility is only to "SEARCH".

The Imam decides to whom and if and when He wants to show His Light. It is not taken, it is given.

But ours is an intellectual faith and our responsibility is to seek knowledge, both material and spiritual knowledge.

We may find the Truth through the theory of 10 Intellects or through the definitions of Nirinjan Nirakar in the Ginans, it does not matter. What matters is that Imam accept you search and gives you His Light.

But it is important to discuss these theories as we do not know whose search will be accepted first.

Yes there have been in history more than one person claiming Imamat at the same time. But the Noor guides whom it wishes. I believe that those who are sincere in their search will always find the way.

When you search on Imam Ismail for example, you find his trace in Multan during these 10 years when he was thought to dead and buried before the death of Imam Jafar Sadiq.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Our responsibility is only to "SEARCH".

The Imam decides to whom and if and when He wants to show His Light. It is not taken, it is given.

But ours is an intellectual faith and our responsibility is to seek knowledge, both material and spiritual knowledge.

We may find the Truth through the theory of 10 Intellects or through the definitions of Nirinjan Nirakar in the Ginans, it does not matter. What matters is that Imam accept you search and gives you His Light.

But it is important to discuss these theories as we do not know whose search will be accepted first.

Yes there have been in history more than one person claiming Imamat at the same time. But the Noor guides whom it wishes. I believe that those who are sincere in their search will always find the way.

When you search on Imam Ismail for example, you find his trace in Multan during these 10 years when he was thought to dead and buried before the death of Imam Jafar Sadiq.


You mean this?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niranjan_Nirankar_Swaroop

There's a problem at the very last line where it's underlined.

wikipedia wrote:

To cross religious terms, Jesus would be considered a manifestation of the Swaroop of God, Swaroop in other words is incarnation


It's funny that the post in wikipedia referencing a thread in this forum...
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly I do not take Wikipedia as my Guru or my spiritual Guide. Wikipedia is just how some people understand things, it is not an authority in any field. The part you have refered to is about "Swaroop", "shape". It is not about Nirinjan Nirakar.

Jesus was a Prophet. I respect him more than many of my Christian friends. He was not Nir-anjan and he was not Nir-akar

Nirinjan Nirakar means He you can not see , He who does not have a shape. He who is above all else. This is from Pir Sadardin.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,

Do you think "searches on Ismailism" only and only find in Rumi, Tusi, Sattar, Khshru or Bagdadi's literature or at least only find in conferences
( Paris) or speeches (MHI)!!! other then that. other searches on Ismailism is nothing but waste of time!!
if you think this way ( and I am pretty sure you are) then you are not making anybody else fool but your are making your own self fool!! because other Ismaili literature you havvn't accepted as a proof in past, even farmans of MHI you have denied, same way ginans, granths!! in ginans you do not have faith, Qasida are more important for you I have noticed that the only proofs you prefer to accept is; either it should be fromQuran, Paris conference, speeches of MHI or from Qasidas!. other proof you never accepted or never will not accepted in future! Doesn't it shows! how narrow minded person you are??
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
Our Ismaili Religion n faith, what we call as our tariqa is simple.
n not loads n loads of dogmas n doctrines(it can insane a person or even render one faithless).

Our tariqa is as below (no if, but,why)

Dua,Prayers,Tasbih=Obligation of body.

Farmans/Ginan Qasidas=Inspiration of mind.

Khidmat then Ibadat=Progress of Soul.

It beautifully n rationally moves from body to mind n inward to your own soul.
Now where are the works of quacks n scholars,minutes n articles.I do not see ANY.

all these load loads of material are of academic nature n not of FAITH BUILDING AT ALL.

It is material for information of mind.More you read more madder(physce) the person becomes.
If one see the flow chart.
It moves from body(shariat) to Mind(tariqat)
onward to soul /intellect n Marifat.
There is no other prescription provided by MHI AS OR PART OF TARIQA.
Traditions may differ based on origin of Ismailis.
Shia belief has fundamental affirmation of intellect.

With one own average level of reading I amuses me with loads n loads of copy paste with near zero connect or our tariqa ,which is very well charted.explianed
n designed.
I feel a person can weaken one's faith on Imam if one is totally into those dogmas,doctrines n belief from those WHO ARE DEAD N DONE WITH.

To Mehboobchatur: Ya Ali Madad.

Which planet do you think is best for the most chatur?

We can try to get a ONE WAY TICKET to that planet or via graveyard whichever is the lower cost.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we start deleting the sarcastic posts and the impolite posts, there will be only half messages left. This is what we are aiming to transfer in the new server.

So please help us by not increasing the cleaning workload.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we should pay closer attention to what our 48th and 49th Imams have said regarding creation and it's purpose.

MSMS in his Memoirs says:

"Once man has thus comprehended the essence of existence, there remains for him the duty, since he knows the absolute value of his own soul, of making for himself a direct path which will constantly lead his individual soul to and bind it with the universal Soul of which the Universeas much of it as we perceive with our limited visions one of the infinite manifestations."

"There is a fundamental difference between the Jewish idea of creation and that of Islam. The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will..... But having known the real, the Absolute, having understood the Universe as an infinite succession of events, intended by God, we need an ethic, a code of conduct in order to be able to elevate ourselves toward the ideal demanded by God."


From the above we can see that there are infinite manifestations of Allah, this universe being just one. Creation is constant and perpetual. His will and thought sustains creation. Also creation is for the purpose of elevation of our souls.

MHI said at the Inauguration Ceremony of Aga Khan University in Karachi on November 11, 1985:

"The divine intellect Aql-i Kull, both transcends and informs the human intellect. It is this intellect which enables man to strive towards two aims dedicated by the Faith: that he should reflect upon the environment Allah has given and that he should know himself. It is the light of intellect which distinguishes the complete human being from the human animal and developing that intellect requires free enquiry. The man of Faith who fails to pursue intellectual search is likely to have only a limited comprehension of Allah's creation. Indeed, it is man's intellect that enables him to expand his vision of that creation."

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

So from the above statements we can clearly see what guidance is and who the guide is. By Divine power it is implied the Imam, by guidance it is implied the Divine Intellect which manifested in the Pir. The present Imam is both the Imam and the Pir. There are no more hierachies anymore.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

From the above we can see that there are infinite manifestations of Allah, this universe being just one

How do you conclude that Imam implies infinite manifestation of Allah???

Imam says infinite manifestation. It could be infinite manifestation of spiritual realm. Or infinite manifestation of Universal Soul.


kmaherali wrote:

By Divine power it is implied the Imam, by guidance it is implied the Divine Intellect which manifested in the Pir


And what about leadership, that Imam mentioned? You seem to symbolically refer Power and Guidance to Imam and Pir respectively, but left out the leadership.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a_27826 wrote:

In order to recognize "Imam of the Time", does one really has to understand all these ismaili metaphysics by dais who even contradicted themselves about the theories they developed?

If not, then how does one recognize the "Imam of the Time"?
Assuming there is more than one person claiming to be the "Imam of the Time"


Tusi gives a detailed explanation of how to recognize the Master and the Lord, in his Paradise of Submission is I believe. And recognition of the Imam of the Time has various levels, i.e. MHI is known to common ummah as Ismailie Spiritual Leader or The Aga Khan, where as for Ismailies He is more than that. MHI is the Imam of the Time, The True Guide, The Perfect Man, The Master, The Lord. Imam of the time is recognized through his Hujjat [Proof]. In today's day and age, our beloved MHI is the Imam of the Time as well as His proof [Hujjat]. In the presence of Hujjat, Imam is veiled by the Hujjat; similar to the night, where the presence of the moon[Hujjat] is a proof of the Sun[the Imam] and a veil. through Ta'lim, one recognizes the true essence of the Imam of the Time.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:

Imam says infinite manifestation. It could be infinite manifestation of spiritual realm. Or infinite manifestation of Universal Soul.

In the following paragraph he says: "Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will"
tret wrote:

And what about leadership, that Imam mentioned? You seem to symbolically refer Power and Guidance to Imam and Pir respectively, but left out the leadership.
Temporal power - Caliphate.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

In the following paragraph he says: "Allah alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will"

Exactly! Re-read again what you just said! Divine Will Not Essence!



kmaherali wrote:

Temporal power - Caliphate.

[/quote]
So now there's a 3rd office, besides Imamate and Hujjatship?
you are making things as you go along! icon_biggrin.gif
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
Exactly! Re-read again what you just said! Divine Will Not Essence!
I never said Essence! I said, "that there are infinite manifestations of Allah."
tret wrote:

So now there's a 3rd office, besides Imamate and Hujjatship?
you are making things as you go along! icon_biggrin.gif
Obviously you haven't read the Memoirs. Please read it and you will know that MSMS implied temporal leadership as well.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 18995

PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Obviously you haven't read the Memoirs. Please read it and you will know that MSMS implied temporal leadership as well.
OK I will help you out in case you are unable to find it, but nevertheless you ought to read it as it can be accessed online at:
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

"The Prophet died without appointing a Khalif or successor. The Shia school of thought maintains that although direct Divine inspiration ceased at the Prophet's death, the need of Divine guidance continued and this could not be left merely to millions of mortal men, subject to the whims and gust of passion and material necessity, capable of being momentarily but tragically misled by greed, by oratory, or by the sudden desire for material advantage. These dangers were manifest in the period immediately following our Holy Prophet's death. Mohammed had been, as I have shown, both a temporal and a spiritual sovereign. The Khalif or successor of the Prophet was to succeed him in both these capacities; he was to be both Emir-al-Momenin or "Commander of the true believers" and Imam-al-Muslimin or "spiritual chief of the devout." Perhaps an analogy from the Latin, Western world will make this clearer: he would be Supreme Pontiff as well as Imperator or temporal ruler.


Ali, the Prophet's cousin and son-in-law, the husband of his beloved and only surviving child, Fatimah, his first convert, his bold champion in many a war, who the Prophet in his lifetime said would be to him as Aaron was to Moses, his brother and right-hand man, in the veins of whose descendants the Prophet's own blood would flow, appeared destined to be that true successor; and such had been the general expectation of Islam. The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout. The Sunnis, however, consider him the fourth in the succession of Khalifs to temporal power.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Doctrines All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400