All the verses that are TAKEN to imply facing the Kaba state do not mention the Kaba by name..
Intead the mention things like "Turn thy face towards the Sacred Mosque (al-masjid al-haraam)."
The question is: What is the Sacred Mosque (al-masjid al-haraam)?
a) the Kaba
b) the Murshid
c) the Imam
d) the Heart
e) Allah Himself
Islam has 4 stages of shariah, tariqah, haqiqah, and marifah. Perhaps the prayer direction depends upon what stage of Islam the person practices?
Facing Kaba'a
Mecca mosques 'wrongly aligned'
Some 200 mosques in Islam's holiest city, Mecca, point the wrong way for prayers, reports from Saudi Arabia say.
All mosques have a niche showing the direction of the most sacred Islamic site, the Kaaba, an ancient cube-like building in Mecca's Grand Mosque.
But people looking down from recently built high-rises in Mecca found the niches in many older mosques were not pointing directly towards the Kaaba.
Some worshippers are said to be anxious about the validity of their prayers.
There have been suggestions that laser beams could be used to make an exact measurement.
Tawfik al-Sudairy, Islamic affairs ministry deputy secretary, downplayed the problem in remarks quoted by the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat.
"There are no major errors but corrections have been made for some old mosques, thanks to modern techniques," he said.
"In any case, it does not affect the prayers."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7984556.stm
Some 200 mosques in Islam's holiest city, Mecca, point the wrong way for prayers, reports from Saudi Arabia say.
All mosques have a niche showing the direction of the most sacred Islamic site, the Kaaba, an ancient cube-like building in Mecca's Grand Mosque.
But people looking down from recently built high-rises in Mecca found the niches in many older mosques were not pointing directly towards the Kaaba.
Some worshippers are said to be anxious about the validity of their prayers.
There have been suggestions that laser beams could be used to make an exact measurement.
Tawfik al-Sudairy, Islamic affairs ministry deputy secretary, downplayed the problem in remarks quoted by the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat.
"There are no major errors but corrections have been made for some old mosques, thanks to modern techniques," he said.
"In any case, it does not affect the prayers."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7984556.stm
I have heard the following anecdote from late Rai Abu Ali Missionary's waez. It's been a while, so I don't know which one, but if I come across it again, I'll let you know. The story goes as follows:
During Prophet Muhammad's time, the holy Prophet and all the Muslims were returning from the Hajj, and it was time for prayers. It was a very large group of people, so the Prophet gathered everyone and announced that everyone face in this particular direction (pointing to a direction) so we are in a uniform manner when praying. Everyone did as told and they said their namaz. Right after the namaz, the Jews who witnessed this incident came up to the Muslims and mocked them, saying you're Prophet made you bow in the direction of our great synagogue in Jerusalem! Muslims were upset why the Prophet made them do this, and they went to the Prophet to complain.
Since going back from Pilgrimage took them days, before you know it, it was time for prayers again. Since the Muslims had complained to the Prophet about facing the synagogue, this time the Prophet pointed them to a different direction. Now, when they completed the prayers, Christians came up to them and laughed at them for facing their religious structure. (I can't remember what the structure was since it's been a while I heard this story.) So again the Muslims went to the Prophet to complain why is he making them face towards symbols from different religions.
It was Namaz time again, and this time, the third time, to avoid all the confusion and confrontation, the Prophet said to face Kaaba! The followers of the Prophet were now satisfied that they are bowing down to their own religion. And thus, the tradition among Sunnis continued. We have to keep in mind that Sunnis are following the Prophet's Sunnah, because they don't have a spiritual leader who can guide them according to the times.
Also, Mowlana Hazar Imam has mentioned on several occasions that say your prayers on time, wherever you are. If you can't say them on time, then say Tasbih. He has never mentioned that say your prayers only facing the Kaaba.
During Prophet Muhammad's time, the holy Prophet and all the Muslims were returning from the Hajj, and it was time for prayers. It was a very large group of people, so the Prophet gathered everyone and announced that everyone face in this particular direction (pointing to a direction) so we are in a uniform manner when praying. Everyone did as told and they said their namaz. Right after the namaz, the Jews who witnessed this incident came up to the Muslims and mocked them, saying you're Prophet made you bow in the direction of our great synagogue in Jerusalem! Muslims were upset why the Prophet made them do this, and they went to the Prophet to complain.
Since going back from Pilgrimage took them days, before you know it, it was time for prayers again. Since the Muslims had complained to the Prophet about facing the synagogue, this time the Prophet pointed them to a different direction. Now, when they completed the prayers, Christians came up to them and laughed at them for facing their religious structure. (I can't remember what the structure was since it's been a while I heard this story.) So again the Muslims went to the Prophet to complain why is he making them face towards symbols from different religions.
It was Namaz time again, and this time, the third time, to avoid all the confusion and confrontation, the Prophet said to face Kaaba! The followers of the Prophet were now satisfied that they are bowing down to their own religion. And thus, the tradition among Sunnis continued. We have to keep in mind that Sunnis are following the Prophet's Sunnah, because they don't have a spiritual leader who can guide them according to the times.
Also, Mowlana Hazar Imam has mentioned on several occasions that say your prayers on time, wherever you are. If you can't say them on time, then say Tasbih. He has never mentioned that say your prayers only facing the Kaaba.
Dear Ismaili Brothers
AS
Going thru Namaaz, Roza, Kaaba, Hajj discussions it appears that even Ismailis are confused about fasting in Ramadan, facing Kaaba and Hajj.
These things are clear cut to Islamic Ummah (Both Shia and Sunnis).
They all pray Salat. There are minor differences how they hold hands or raise their hands. Shias usually combine their prayers in 3 times but they do pray 5 prayers.
They all fast in Ramadan but may differ on stating of Ramadan.
They all believe that Hajj is a fard on those who can afford it.
Reading thru discussions it appears there are different views.
Is it not possible to have definite ruling from Hazir Imaam on the matter of fasting in Ramadan or other usul-e-deen?
It appears that there will be new guidance on prayers for Ismailies in the near future.
Wasalaam
AS
Going thru Namaaz, Roza, Kaaba, Hajj discussions it appears that even Ismailis are confused about fasting in Ramadan, facing Kaaba and Hajj.
These things are clear cut to Islamic Ummah (Both Shia and Sunnis).
They all pray Salat. There are minor differences how they hold hands or raise their hands. Shias usually combine their prayers in 3 times but they do pray 5 prayers.
They all fast in Ramadan but may differ on stating of Ramadan.
They all believe that Hajj is a fard on those who can afford it.
Reading thru discussions it appears there are different views.
Is it not possible to have definite ruling from Hazir Imaam on the matter of fasting in Ramadan or other usul-e-deen?
It appears that there will be new guidance on prayers for Ismailies in the near future.
Wasalaam
Ismailism has evolved through diverse historical and cultural backgrounds and hence we would expect differences in outlook and interpretations of faith. And of course there is room for the application of intellect in our faith. Our Imams have addressed this issue on a number of occasions. In his memoir MSMS says:m0786 wrote:Reading thru discussions it appears there are different views.
Is it not possible to have definite ruling from Hazir Imaam on the matter of fasting in Ramadan or other usul-e-deen?
It appears that there will be new guidance on prayers for Ismailies in the near future.
Wasalaam
"Ismailism has survived because it has always been fluid. Rigidity is contrary to our whole way of life and outlook. There have really been no cut and dried rules; even the set of regulations known as the Holy Laws are directions as to method and procedure and not detailed orders about results to be obtained. In some countries-India and Africa for example-the Ismailis have a council system, under which their local councillors are charged with all internal administrative responsibility, and report to me what they have done. In Syria, Central Asia and Iran, leadership, as I have said, is vested in hereditary recommended leaders and chiefs, who are the Imam's representatives and who look after the administration of the various jamats, or congregations."
Below is an excerpt of an interview of MHI with the ITV London in Chantilly France on 5th Jume 1985 addressing the issue.
Q29. What makes the Ismailies different from the mainstream Shiite Islam.
A29. Probably that there is a living Imam who traces his family back
to Hazrat Ali. The majority of the Shia today are known as
the twelver Shia and they believe in hidden Imam.
Q30. Do you have any sympathy with the more fundamentalist elements of Shiism with the leaders for example of Iran, Pakistan or Libya
A 3O- I understand what are the pressures upon them, whether I necessarily share the reactions to those pressures is not necessarily true. I think one has to be very careful in the interpretation of Islam, not anchor that interpretation at one time in history.If you make Islam a faith of the past, you in a sense make it impossible for the Muslim to practise his faith today and in the future and as a Muslim, I totally reject the concept that the message of Islam is tied to any given time after the revelation of the faith and Islam must practise by people today and hundred and hundred years, two hundred years. And if Islam is a faith for ever, then leadership must be very careful not to harness it to concept of a given time.
Q31. How do you think your own approach to Islam is regarded by
somebody like Ayatoullah Khumeini-
A31. I have never discussed that with the Ayatoullah, but I can
imagine there are some areas on which we would differ, particularly with regard may be to the rigid interpretation of certain parts may be, of tradition but I think that the hope that the Islamic world will find a chance to govern itself within an Islamic view of life, is one which is shared by a very very large numbe of people.
Br. kmaherali;
AS
JAK for response.
If I may apply my inteellect in reasoning that when Ismaili Muslim prays in Jamaat he prays facing prayer leader and officials representing MHI. Therefore he is praying towards MHI. Hense MHI is Kaaba!
Wasalaam
AS
JAK for response.
So I understand that Ismaili Muslim is not requred to face towads Kaaba while praying even though it is clear in Qur'an prayer direction is towards Kaaba. Yes or No?There have really been no cut and dried rules
If I may apply my inteellect in reasoning that when Ismaili Muslim prays in Jamaat he prays facing prayer leader and officials representing MHI. Therefore he is praying towards MHI. Hense MHI is Kaaba!
Wasalaam
It appears that you haven't read the whole thread. I would like to draw your attention to the post below by kandani.m0786 wrote:So I understand that Ismaili Muslim is not requred to face towads Kaaba while praying even though it is clear in Qur'an prayer direction is towards Kaaba. Yes or No?
If I may apply my inteellect in reasoning that when Ismaili Muslim prays in Jamaat he prays facing prayer leader and officials representing MHI. Therefore he is praying towards MHI. Hense MHI is Kaaba!
Wasalaam
"All the verses that are TAKEN to imply facing the Kaba state do not mention the Kaba by name..
Intead the mention things like "Turn thy face towards the Sacred Mosque (al-masjid al-haraam)."
The question is: What is the Sacred Mosque (al-masjid al-haraam)?
a) the Kaba
b) the Murshid
c) the Imam
d) the Heart
e) Allah Himself
Islam has 4 stages of shariah, tariqah, haqiqah, and marifah. Perhaps the prayer direction depends upon what stage of Islam the person practices?"
According to the esoteric traditions within and without Islam, creation is not the world ‘out there’ but it is the projection or the exteriorization of our consciousness. In other words it is not an objective reality but it is a subjective one and is our perception of it. Our world will change as we change inwardly and hence there can be many worlds which can be classified in four categories: the world of the Shariat, the world of the Tariqat, the world of the Haqiqat and the world of the Marifat.m0786 wrote:How? Please elaborate.
There has been an explanation along the same lines from a Quranic perspective and is given in one of our threads: doctrines --> the seven heavens? at http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... en+heavens
The seven heavens can also be categorized within the four levels....
I cannot see explicit reference to Kaaba in the verses. If you have interpreted the Qibla to be the Kaaba, then it is another matter. Quran is open to multiple interpretations. After all, Ayats are signs pointing to a deeper reality and should not be taken literally always.m0786 wrote:Qur'an 2:143-144
Here is Pooya/Ali comments
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:142]
For "the east and the west belong to Allah" see commentary of verses 107 and 115 of this surah.
Qiblah is the direction towards which the face is turned. In Makka, the Holy Prophet used to face Jerusalem at the time of praying salat, but the holy Kabah was always between him and the first qiblah Even in Madina, he continued to pray towards Jerusalem for seventeen months, after which Allah accepted the Holy Prophet's request to change the qiblah, because the Jews of Madina had been mocking the Muslims for not having their own qiblah.
In fulfilment of the divine promise to bless Ibrahim and Ismail, it was necessary to make the house built by them, the final qiblah for the worship of Allah, by the followers of the perfected and completed religion of Allah, for all times.
(Please note house built by Ibrahim and Ismail is structure known as Kabah)
Reference to surah al Fil makes it clear that to keep safe the highly venerated house of Allah, Allah Himself destroyed the army of Abraha who came to demolish the holy Kabah.This change was also a prophecy that Makka would, one day, come into the hands of the Muslims, and that it would be cleared of the false gods, because a centre of idolatry could never have been the qiblah of a thoroughly monotheistic faith.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:143]
To understand this verse it is necessary to know the meanings of some important words and phrases used in it.
(1) Ummat does not always mean a community or a nation. In verse 120 of al Nahl it refers to a single individual-Verily Ibrahim was a people (ummat) obedient to Allah.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:144]
Madina is located between Makka and Jerusalem. Facing Jerusalem, standing in Madina, meant turning the hinder parts of the body towards Makka. Since the Holy Prophet knew that the holy Kabah in Makka was going to be the ultimate qiblah, he did not like to turn his back towards it.
The Jews knew that the Holy Prophet was the final messenger of Allah (see verse 40 of this surah)
They also knew that the holy Kabah, with the "black stone" set in one of its corners, was destined to be the qiblah of the true believers.
"The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner-stone."
(Psalms: 118 : 22 and Matthew 2 1 : 42).
Prophet Isa said: "He will bring those bad men to a bad end, and hand the vineyard over to other tenants, who will let him have his share of the crop when the season comes." It was a parable narrated to the Jews. It happened exactly as the Jews were warned. When the Jews failed to fulfil the covenant, the covenant of Allah was transferred to the descendants of Ismail.
Then Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected has become the main corner-stone. This is the Lord's doing, and it is wonderful in our eyes? Therefore, I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and given to a nation that yields the proper fruit." When the chief priests and Pharisees heard his parables, they saw that he was referring to them. (Matthew 21 :42 to 45).
The kingdom of God, the spiritual leadership of mankind, transferred to the descendants of Ismail, remains with the family of the Holy Prophet, the divinely chosen holy Imams.
For it was he whom the Lord your God chose from all your tribes to attend on the Lord and to minister in the name of the Lord, both he and his sons for all time. (Deut: 18: 5)
Isa said:
I will ask the Father, and he will give you another to be your advocate, who will be with you for ever. (John 14: 16).
Isa referred to the Holy Prophet as the advocate or the comforter who would succeed him and be with the people for ever. Isa's prophecy is proved true in the Holy Prophet and his descendants, the last of whom is our living Imam.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:142]
For "the east and the west belong to Allah" see commentary of verses 107 and 115 of this surah.
Qiblah is the direction towards which the face is turned. In Makka, the Holy Prophet used to face Jerusalem at the time of praying salat, but the holy Kabah was always between him and the first qiblah Even in Madina, he continued to pray towards Jerusalem for seventeen months, after which Allah accepted the Holy Prophet's request to change the qiblah, because the Jews of Madina had been mocking the Muslims for not having their own qiblah.
In fulfilment of the divine promise to bless Ibrahim and Ismail, it was necessary to make the house built by them, the final qiblah for the worship of Allah, by the followers of the perfected and completed religion of Allah, for all times.
(Please note house built by Ibrahim and Ismail is structure known as Kabah)
Reference to surah al Fil makes it clear that to keep safe the highly venerated house of Allah, Allah Himself destroyed the army of Abraha who came to demolish the holy Kabah.This change was also a prophecy that Makka would, one day, come into the hands of the Muslims, and that it would be cleared of the false gods, because a centre of idolatry could never have been the qiblah of a thoroughly monotheistic faith.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:143]
To understand this verse it is necessary to know the meanings of some important words and phrases used in it.
(1) Ummat does not always mean a community or a nation. In verse 120 of al Nahl it refers to a single individual-Verily Ibrahim was a people (ummat) obedient to Allah.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:144]
Madina is located between Makka and Jerusalem. Facing Jerusalem, standing in Madina, meant turning the hinder parts of the body towards Makka. Since the Holy Prophet knew that the holy Kabah in Makka was going to be the ultimate qiblah, he did not like to turn his back towards it.
The Jews knew that the Holy Prophet was the final messenger of Allah (see verse 40 of this surah)
They also knew that the holy Kabah, with the "black stone" set in one of its corners, was destined to be the qiblah of the true believers.
"The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner-stone."
(Psalms: 118 : 22 and Matthew 2 1 : 42).
Prophet Isa said: "He will bring those bad men to a bad end, and hand the vineyard over to other tenants, who will let him have his share of the crop when the season comes." It was a parable narrated to the Jews. It happened exactly as the Jews were warned. When the Jews failed to fulfil the covenant, the covenant of Allah was transferred to the descendants of Ismail.
Then Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected has become the main corner-stone. This is the Lord's doing, and it is wonderful in our eyes? Therefore, I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and given to a nation that yields the proper fruit." When the chief priests and Pharisees heard his parables, they saw that he was referring to them. (Matthew 21 :42 to 45).
The kingdom of God, the spiritual leadership of mankind, transferred to the descendants of Ismail, remains with the family of the Holy Prophet, the divinely chosen holy Imams.
For it was he whom the Lord your God chose from all your tribes to attend on the Lord and to minister in the name of the Lord, both he and his sons for all time. (Deut: 18: 5)
Isa said:
I will ask the Father, and he will give you another to be your advocate, who will be with you for ever. (John 14: 16).
Isa referred to the Holy Prophet as the advocate or the comforter who would succeed him and be with the people for ever. Isa's prophecy is proved true in the Holy Prophet and his descendants, the last of whom is our living Imam.
There is no explicit word but scared mosque is in Mecca and Kabah is structure in the mosque. Sahabas were much smarter then knit pickers and the Prophet did not have to draw 'X' on the floor of Kabah to indicate quiblah for them.I cannot see explicit reference to Kaaba in the verses. If you have interpreted the Qibla to be the Kaaba,
Do you have MHI's interpretation of these Ayah?Quran is open to multiple interpretations.
If it suits your purpose then you may take it literally, othrwise, you may start looking for deeper meaning.After all, Ayats are signs pointing to a deeper reality and should not be taken literally always
Why it is so difficult to accept Kabah as quiblah for Musims, followers of last Prophet of Allah? Ismailis can choose whatever quibla they deem necessary.
I hope you will accept that for Muslims (Both Sunni snd major Tarikas of Shia) Salat/Namaz, fast in Ramadan and Hajj if you can afford it is Usul-e-deen
The point being made is that it is open to interpretation. Your interpretation is valid but there are other valid interpretations as well.m0786 wrote: There is no explicit word but scared mosque is in Mecca and Kabah is structure in the mosque. Sahabas were much smarter then knit pickers and the Prophet did not have to draw 'X' on the floor of Kabah to indicate quiblah for them..
Not an explicit one, but we have guidance from him regarding prayers which should be recited at any place. He has also highlighted verses which point to Allah's pesence evrywhere such as ‘Wherever you turn, there is the face of Allah’(Sura al-Baqara).m0786 wrote: Do you have MHI's interpretation of these Ayah?
That is the beauty of the Quran, that it can be interpreted in many different ways according to the capacity of individuals. I have no problems with how other Muslims practice their faith as long as they respect mine. There ispluralsim in Islam.m0786 wrote: If it suits your purpose then you may take it literally, othrwise, you may start looking for deeper meaning.
Why it is so difficult to accept Kabah as quiblah for Musims, followers of last Prophet of Allah? Ismailis can choose whatever quibla they deem necessary.
I hope you will accept that for Muslims (Both Sunni snd major Tarikas of Shia) Salat/Namaz, fast in Ramadan and Hajj if you can afford it is Usul-e-deen
Dear Admin,
I hope you are not banning m0786 from this forum. I think we are having a pretty healthy debate. He has his views and we have enough ammunition to counter if he is trying to preach a different theology/ideology. I think we should show little more patience and hear him out. Kmeherali is very knowledgeable and is doing a great job and does not need anyones intervention on this thread. Just a request. You're the boss here.
I hope you are not banning m0786 from this forum. I think we are having a pretty healthy debate. He has his views and we have enough ammunition to counter if he is trying to preach a different theology/ideology. I think we should show little more patience and hear him out. Kmeherali is very knowledgeable and is doing a great job and does not need anyones intervention on this thread. Just a request. You're the boss here.
Br. Pardesi
Thank you.
I am not or have not preached against right for different interpretation of Qur'an.
Br. KM and I were talking about Q 2:144, in this verse Prophet of Islam was commanded to face scared Masjid and the fact that Kabah is located within this Masjid.
For us believing Muslims there is no other way to Interprete this verse. I posted Pooya/Ali's( a Shia) comments to support this view.
For Muslims(Sunni and Shia) there is no other Quibla (direction of prayer).
I do accept that Imami Ismaili are free to face any direction per farman of MHI or guidance from their board.
I have made the point and do not see need to say more.
Wasalaam
Thank you.
I am not or have not preached against right for different interpretation of Qur'an.
Br. KM and I were talking about Q 2:144, in this verse Prophet of Islam was commanded to face scared Masjid and the fact that Kabah is located within this Masjid.
For us believing Muslims there is no other way to Interprete this verse. I posted Pooya/Ali's( a Shia) comments to support this view.
For Muslims(Sunni and Shia) there is no other Quibla (direction of prayer).
I do accept that Imami Ismaili are free to face any direction per farman of MHI or guidance from their board.
I have made the point and do not see need to say more.
Wasalaam
Brother m0786,
You must understand that the Admin and Moderators on this website have a very tough job of keeping it clean of the litter and garbage dumped here by the enemies of Ismailism and to keep it on the right track for which it was created. Although this website was created for Ismailis, outsiders are welcomed with open arms if they have something to share and learn about our tariqa and of course if they follow the rules of the forums.
The Admin and other members have to face abuse and insults on a daily basis from people who do not understand and share our beliefs. Those of us who engage others are doing so only because our Imam has recommended us to answer and explain and explain again what our beliefs really are. So Admin's ire is understandable when they feel that a particular person is upto something. Majority of outsiders are!
You are welcome to ask questions to learn about our beliefs and you have the right to form your own opinion in the end. Like you mentioned on another thread that one must read up some scholarly books before jumping into a debate, I suggest you also do that. Our answers will make a lot of sense once you have the basic understanding.
You must understand that the Admin and Moderators on this website have a very tough job of keeping it clean of the litter and garbage dumped here by the enemies of Ismailism and to keep it on the right track for which it was created. Although this website was created for Ismailis, outsiders are welcomed with open arms if they have something to share and learn about our tariqa and of course if they follow the rules of the forums.
The Admin and other members have to face abuse and insults on a daily basis from people who do not understand and share our beliefs. Those of us who engage others are doing so only because our Imam has recommended us to answer and explain and explain again what our beliefs really are. So Admin's ire is understandable when they feel that a particular person is upto something. Majority of outsiders are!
You are welcome to ask questions to learn about our beliefs and you have the right to form your own opinion in the end. Like you mentioned on another thread that one must read up some scholarly books before jumping into a debate, I suggest you also do that. Our answers will make a lot of sense once you have the basic understanding.
<BR><BR>Dear Bro,<BR><BR>you are saying exactly right, though mistakenly, but its truth. I agree that Quran says to pray facing Kaaba. but plz think spiritually, not in worldly terms and not what is written. bcz the Quran is in Arabic and everyone gives different interpretation. Quran is Classic book of Allah but as muslims, we need to know what is written in it and for that we need someone who can tell us the truth and thats what we have. i will give u example, from the time of Prophet Muhammad, many ppl have said that they are Allah's men and Allah has sent them after Prophet but except Prince Karim and His family, no o­ne is in this world now. and each and every person who claimed that is no more and their followers are apart from each other. <BR>So coming back to question, Quran is right in saying about Kaaba. Who told u to do so? Yes, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). that u know. But why he told u to do so? just bcz its written in Quran and Allah wants u to do that. No my brother. Quran is not that easy and simple. You know who was born inside Kaaba. When mother of Hazrat Ali (SAW) was pregnant, at month 7, she had labour pain and there was no o­ne who can help her. she came out of her house and was looking for someone. When she came near Kaaba (as u know Kaaba was there from the time of Hazrat Ibrahim), she got unconsious. Suddenly, the walls of Kaaba broke open and she entered inside Kaaba. Angels came and that was the birth of Hazrat Ali (SAW). if u want to confirm it, go to the top Scholar of Sunni and ask him. Sunni scholars know all this but they hide this from ppl. so continuing, Indirectly, u ppl dont know but actually every o­ne is facing Ali (SAW) while praying. and thats the truth. so we ismailies are doing same by praying facing our Imam bcz he is Noor of Ali(SAW).<BR><BR>I hope this helps all querries o­n this forum.<BR><BR>Peacem0786 wrote:Br. kmaherali;<BR><BR>AS<BR><BR>JAK for response.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>So I understand that Ismaili Muslim is not requred to face towads Kaaba while praying even though it is clear in Qur'an prayer direction is towards Kaaba. Yes or No?<BR><BR>If I may apply my inteellect in reasoning that when Ismaili Muslim prays in Jamaat he prays facing prayer leader and officials representing MHI. Therefore he is praying towards MHI. Hense MHI is Kaaba!<BR><BR>WasalaamThere have really been no cut and dried rules
-
InquisitiveGirl
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:40 pm
<P>See we can now imagine that MHI is now making o­ne tariqa for our jamat like He changed the Nikah which is almost same as that for other muslims, changes in Dua as it will soon be available. From these changes, i think now He is trying to put us o­n a platform where we can talk to other muslims in a better way. Simply, He is ordering us to make JKs facing Kaaba bcz most of the Ismailis dont know the truth written in our Ginans and we dont bother to study it as well. But the real interpretation of this is same as that i have given in my previous post. and this is actually not impt where we face if we belive Ali (SAW).</P>
There is no such thing as Kaba direction from North America. It depends how you understand the shape of the world. Half of the Masjid in America face the south East and the other half north East.
The way a plane flies from North America to Mecca is not the way you look on a flat map.
For Ismailis there is only one Kaaba. This has already been discussed. Search Kaba in the Forum, read all the previous discussion before posting.
The way a plane flies from North America to Mecca is not the way you look on a flat map.
For Ismailis there is only one Kaaba. This has already been discussed. Search Kaba in the Forum, read all the previous discussion before posting.
I would disagree.InquisitiveGirl wrote:FYI,
a lot of the khanas around the world, including North America, face the kabaa. Also, the new Dharkhanas are all being built, facing the Kabaa.
If facing the Kabaa is not in our Tariqa, then why are the Khanas under construction being built in the direction of the Kabaa?
A lot of them don't..even some of the new ones don't.
Shams
I think this matter has been discussed in this thread earlier. Go through the whole thread. There are seven pages.InquisitiveGirl wrote:FYI,
a lot of the khanas around the world, including North America, face the kabaa. Also, the new Dharkhanas are all being built, facing the Kabaa.
If facing the Kabaa is not in our Tariqa, then why are the Khanas under construction being built in the direction of the Kabaa?
According to my father who is consulting civil Engineer and has set direction for 3 Sunni and one Shia Masjid in Northeast USA there is a set direction and it is North East not south east.There is no such thing as Kaba direction from North America. It depends how you understand the shape of the world. Half of the Masjid in America face the south East and the other half north East.
I did some research and found this on moonsighting.com on qibla FAQ.
Quote:
Question: What is correct Qibla direction from North America, North-East or South-East? Some people show on the flat map that Qibla should be South-East.
Answer: Earth is NOT flat as some people still believe. No one can give them knowledge except Allah. But those who ponder on this have clearly seen that the earth is approximately round. Earth's shadow on moon is visible at Moon Eclipse, and it is always round. Other proofs of roundness are observations; when a sailing- away ship is seen on the horizon for a distance it vanishes slowly going below horizon, etc.
For Qibla direction, when people debate the direction for North America as being North-East or South-East, the problem is lack of understanding that the earth is not flat so you should not look at flat map. The round earth gives a different perspective. If you look at the globe then may be you will see that the direction from Alaska to Makkah is due North, although Makkah is South of Alaska. If there were a minaret over Ka'bah that was so high that it reaches the sky, then you could see it from Nova Scotia and it would be in North-East direction. In fact the sun comes approximately overhead above Ka'bah on two dates every year. That is like a minaret over ka'bah. Read about it on my Qibla direction page
And you will understand the correct direction of Qibla, from North America in general is North-East, except on North-west corner of USA and Alaska where Qibla is almost North.
End of Quote
As I said some people believe North-East is the proper way to look and some believe South East is the proper way.
All of these people should not fight on the true direction because they have a common perspective: they all have difficulties understanding Allah's command that wherever you look, God is everywhere.
Though some wants to imprison him is a particular place depending on their religion. Either in the sun, or in a statue or in a stone...
Tomorrow our children will explore far away galaxies and look at the miracle of creation and the limitless power of Allah. They will wonder why people just few Centuries ago were fighting on the direction for prayer on some planet earth which would be abandoned already for better places in the universe..
All of these people should not fight on the true direction because they have a common perspective: they all have difficulties understanding Allah's command that wherever you look, God is everywhere.
Though some wants to imprison him is a particular place depending on their religion. Either in the sun, or in a statue or in a stone...
Tomorrow our children will explore far away galaxies and look at the miracle of creation and the limitless power of Allah. They will wonder why people just few Centuries ago were fighting on the direction for prayer on some planet earth which would be abandoned already for better places in the universe..
The eqaution of the Ka'ba with the Imam in our tradition is not something that is exclusive to our tradition. Below is an anecdote from the life of the great Islamic Sufi Bayazid Bustami meeting a saint on his way to Hajj. It is taken from Mathnavi of Rumi (II: 2220 onwards).kmaherali wrote:The following anecdote quoted by Nagib in another discussion, says it all.
When I went to Karachi in 1981, I was told the following anecdote:
Mowlana Shah Karim visited the Sulan Muhammad Shah Takri in Karachi with some leaders. From the top, he asked them where is the Qaba? The leaders started looking east and west, searching for direction but could not reply.
One of the caretaker [he was from Hunza] was summoned and he was asked the same question. I felt at the feet of Hazar Imam and kissed-it. Crying loudly, he said Khudawind, here is the Qaba. Hazar Imam said, you are right.
Nagib
How a certain Shaykh said to Bayazid, "I am the Ka'ba: perform a circumambitlatian round me."
Bayazid, the Shaykh of the community, was hurrying to Mecca for the greater pilgrimage (hajj) and the lesser (umra).
In every city to which he went he would at first make search after the venerable (saints).
2220 He would roam about, asking, "Who is there in the city that is relying on1 (spiritual) insight?"
God has said, "Whithersoever thou goest in thy travels, thou must first seek after a (holy) man."
Go in quest of a treasure, for (worldly) profit and loss come second: regard them as the branch (not as the root).
Whoever sows is in quest of wheat; the chaff comes to him indeed, (but only) secondarily.
If you sow chaff, no wheat will come up: seek a man, seek a man!
2225 When it is the season of pilgrimage, go in quest of the Ka'ba; when you have gone (with that purpose), Mecca also will be seen.
In the Mi'raj (Ascension of the Prophet) the quest was (for) vision of the Beloved; 'twas but secondarily that the empyrean and the angels were also shown.
Story.
A novice one day built a new house; the Pir came (and) saw his house.
The Shaykh said to his new disciple—he put to the test him that had good thoughts —
"Wherefore hast thou made a window, O comrade?" Said he "In order that light may come in by this way."
2230 He (the Shaykh) said, "That is (only) the branch (secondary-object); (thy) want (desire) must be this, (namely) that through this channel thou mayst hear the call to prayer."
Bayazid, on his journey (to the Ka'ba), sought much to find some one that was the Khizr of his time.
He espied an old man with a stature (bent) like the new moon; he saw in him the majesty and (lofty) speech of (holy) men;
His eyes sightless, and his heart (illumined) as the sun: like an elephant dreaming of Hindustan.
With closed eyes, asleep, he beholds a hundred delights; when he opens (his eyes), he sees not those (delights)—oh, ('tis) wonderful!
2235 Many a wonder is made manifest in sleep: in sleep the heart becomes a window.
One that is awake and dreams fair dreams, he is the knower (of God): smear your eyes with2 his dust.
He (Bayazid) sat down before him and asked about his condition; he found him to be a dervish and also a family man
He (the old man) said, "Whither art thou bound, O Bayazid? To what place wouldst thou take the baggage of travel in a strange land?"
Bayazid answered, "I start for the Ka'ba at daybreak." "Eh," cried the other, "what hast thou as provisions for the road?"
2240 "I have two hundred silver dirhems," said he; "look, (they are) tied fast in the corner of my cloak."
He said, "Make a circuit round me seven times, and reckon this (to be) better than the circumambulation (of the Ka'ba) in the pilgrimage;
And lay those dirhems before me, O generous one. Know that thou hast made the greater pilgrimage and that thy desire has been achieved;
(That) thou hast (also) performed the lesser pilgrimage and gained the life everlasting; (that) thou hast become pure (saf) and sped up (the Hill of) Purity (Safd).
By the truth of the Truth (God) whom thy soul hath seen, (I swear) that He hath chosen me above His House.
2245 Albeit the Ka'ba is the House of His religious service, my form too, in which I was created, is the house of His inmost conciousness.
Never since God made the Ka'ba hath He gone into it, and none but the Living (God) hath ever gone into this House (of mine).
When thou hast seen me, thou hast seen God: thou hast circled round the Ka'ba of Sincerity.
To serve me is to obey and glorify God: beware thou think not that God is separate from me.
Open thine eyes well and look on me, that thou mayst behold the Light of God in man."
Bayazid gave heed to those mystic sayings, and put them in his ear as a golden ring.
Through him (the old man), Bayazjd came into an increase (of spiritual endowment): the adept at last attained unto the end.
1 Literally, " supporting himself on the pillars of."
2 Literally, "draw into your eyes."
Change prayer position, Indonesian Muslims told
Reuters
Posted on Jul 16, 2010 at 18:20
Jakarta: Indonesia's Muslims learned on Friday they have been praying in the wrong direction, after the country's highest Islamic authority said its directive on the direction of Mecca actually had people facing Africa.
Muslims are supposed to face the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia during prayer and the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) issued an edict in March stipulating westward was the correct direction from the world's most populous Muslim country.
"But it has been decided that actually the mosques are facing Somalia or Kenya, so we are now suggesting people shift the direction slightly to the north-west," the head of the MUI, Cholil Ridwan, told Reuters. "There's no need to knock down mosques, just shift your direction slightly during prayer."
Ridwan said Muslims need not fear that their prayers have been wasted because they were facing the wrong way.
"Their prayers will still be heard by Allah," he said.
Said Agil Siradj, head of Indonesia's largest Muslim organisation Nahdlatul Ulama, told English language newspaper the Jakarta Globe that the confusion showed the MUI issued edicts too fast and that this was a lesson for them.
The MUI has, in the past, issued controversial edicts banning Muslims from chanting during yoga, and from smoking.
Indonesia is a majority Muslim but officially secular country.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/change-praye ... 872-2.html
Reuters
Posted on Jul 16, 2010 at 18:20
Jakarta: Indonesia's Muslims learned on Friday they have been praying in the wrong direction, after the country's highest Islamic authority said its directive on the direction of Mecca actually had people facing Africa.
Muslims are supposed to face the holy city of Mecca in Saudi Arabia during prayer and the Indonesian Ulema Council (MUI) issued an edict in March stipulating westward was the correct direction from the world's most populous Muslim country.
"But it has been decided that actually the mosques are facing Somalia or Kenya, so we are now suggesting people shift the direction slightly to the north-west," the head of the MUI, Cholil Ridwan, told Reuters. "There's no need to knock down mosques, just shift your direction slightly during prayer."
Ridwan said Muslims need not fear that their prayers have been wasted because they were facing the wrong way.
"Their prayers will still be heard by Allah," he said.
Said Agil Siradj, head of Indonesia's largest Muslim organisation Nahdlatul Ulama, told English language newspaper the Jakarta Globe that the confusion showed the MUI issued edicts too fast and that this was a lesson for them.
The MUI has, in the past, issued controversial edicts banning Muslims from chanting during yoga, and from smoking.
Indonesia is a majority Muslim but officially secular country.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/change-praye ... 872-2.html