Français  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Facing Kaba'a
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

Facing Kaba'a
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Rites and Ceremonies
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Virgo2



Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 140

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allah S.W.T. also says in the Qur'an Sura II Ayah 115 To God belong the East and the West withersoever Ye turn, there is the presence of God For God is All-Pervading, All-Knowing

So if anybody asks me if Iface the Kabba, I say Allah is my Qibla and He is everywhere I turn so I do not need to face in the direction of Kabba My prayers are to Allah only through my Imam. Virgo2
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
lilchimpmunk



Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:10 am    Post subject: HPC Houston Reply with quote

This new Headquartes at HPC Houston faces the Kabah during prayers, but here in San Antonio, Texas, where I live, it is otherwise. It has been said that from now o­n any new khane will be made in the direction of the Kabah to keep our rituals and history alive.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
lilchimpmunk



Joined: 29 Jul 2005
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virgo2 "So if anybody asks me if Iface the Kabba, I say Allah is my Qibla and He is everywhere I turn so I do not need to face in the direction of Kabba My prayers are to Allah o&shy;nly through my Imam. "<BR><BR>I love what you said.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
Re:Star i have seen some ismailis from islamic countries in canada wear hijab or hijablike garments to jamatkhana

Hijab or Hijab like garments in Jamat khana. Shame on them. I am surprised to know that as Since Imam Hassan Ali Shah there are farmans for not wearing it and I dont think that it is any difficult thing not to do.
As Once KMaherAli quoted from some one" I keep my burka because in Afghanistan you never know what will happen...we are all still afraid that the Taliban may come back one day." This is different case and that you mentioned is different. Wearing hijab in advanced country like Canada and also after being Ismaili. As Hazir Imam Said,"My Grandfather made it quite clear to the Ismaili community that women were not to wear the veil and they no longer do." It is in Memoirs of Aga Khan,"In my grandfather's and my father's time the Ismailis were far ahead of any other Muslim sect in the matter of the abolition of the strict veil, even in extremely conservative countries. I have absolutely abolished it; nowadays you will never find an Ismaili woman wearing the veil." Women who claims to be Ismaili and wears veil need to think on the words in bold. Its so saddening that many Ismailis want to follow the way of Arab Mullahs instead of the way taught by Pir Sadardin. They ignore Imam's Farman and Ginan and want to go backwards towards Shariat. To wear veil, to make face towards Kaaba and all these Shariati acts. Yesterday I came to know by a friend that there are some ismailis in Pakistan going to mosque for Friday Prayers? There is in Farman that Shariat and haqiqat are 2 different things and can never become one.



From the bbc website..

Last Updated: Wednesday, 3 August 2005, 16:57 GMT 17:57 UK

E-mail this to a friend Printable version

Muslim leader urges hijab caution

Dr Badawi said the hijab should not be worn if it caused attacks
A leading Muslim figure has suggested Islamic women stop wearing hijab head scarves, amid a rise in hate crimes.
Dr Zaki Badawi, head of the Muslim College in London and chairman of the Council of Mosques and Imams, issued the advice amid a wave of race attacks.

There were 269 crimes in three weeks after the 7 July bombings, compared with 40 in the same period of 2004.

Dr Badawi said "a woman wearing the hijab... could suffer aggression from irresponsible elements".

Most of the hate crimes reported were verbal abuse and minor assaults, but damage to mosques and property with a great "emotional impact" also occurred, police said.

Dress is meant to protect from harm, not to invite it

Dr Zaki Badawi


'The hijab is part of my faith'

Dr Badawi said: "In the present tense situation, with the rise of attacks on Muslims, we advise Muslim women who fear being attacked physically or verbally to remove their hijab so as not to be identified by those hostile to Muslims.

"A woman wearing the hijab...could suffer aggression from irresponsible elements. Therefore, she ought not to wear it. Dress is meant to protect from harm, not to invite it."

He said the Koran justified abandoning the hijab, saying it should help Muslim women be "identified and not molested", but if it led to harassment the ruling was it should not be worn.

Dr Badawi is seen as a progressive Muslim leader who has advocated integration between Muslims and British society for decades.

'Communities retreating'

Met Police Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur said he had never seen so much anger among young Muslims.

Counter-terrorism powers are not targeting any community in particular but are targeting terrorists

Hazel Blears
Home Office minister

Communities were frustrated by the increased use of stop-and-search and the new "shoot-to-kill to protect" policy for suicide bombers, he said.

"There is no doubt that incidents impacting on the Muslim community have increased."

And he warned: "It can lead to these communities completely retreating and not engaging at a time when we want their engagement and support."

Mr Ghaffur said there were 68 "faith hate" crimes in London alone, in the first three days after the 7 July attacks which killed 52.

Racial profiling

A spokesman for the Muslim Safety Forum, an umbrella group which works closely with the police, said the figures reflected a recent increase in calls to their members about abuse and attacks.

"It's something we've been saying for a few weeks now but it's good to see senior police managers have got up and actually said it," spokesman Tahir Butt said.


Mosques outside London were also attacked after the bombings

"Although police are talking about a zero-tolerance policy the test is how effective that is at ground level when you go in and report a crime."

Faith hate crimes are currently prosecuted under anti-racism legislation, but a bill to create a new offence of incitement to religious hatred is currently going through Parliament.

The bill, which has attracted criticism, has passed its Commons stages but is set to get a rocky ride in the Lords.

The figures emerged as Home Office minister Hazel Blears held the first in a series of meetings with Muslim community groups.

They come amid concerns that young Muslims are being targeted by police in stop-and-search operations.

Ahead of the meeting, Ms Blears pledged that Muslims would not be discriminated against by police trying to prevent potential terror attacks.

'Stretched'

She insisted "counter-terrorism powers are not targeting any community in particular but are targeting terrorists".

She also opposed racial profiling, saying stop and searches should be based on good intelligence, not just skin colour.

Mr Ghaffur also said the specialist unit dealing with serious and organised crime had lost 10% of its staff to the bombings inquiry.

As a result proactive work on major murder inquiries had "slowed to a trickle".

"The Met is stretched," he said. "There may be longer term implications if this level of activity continues."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4742869.stm

As the world becomes smaller, i am sure we'll realise the ESOTERIC VALUES of our Faith.

Shams
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting article but still there are people against it too
Women hit back over hijab ruling



A Muslim women's group has criticised a suggestion they should stop wearing headscarves for fear of hate attacks.


There has been a rise in religious hate crime since the London attacks
A Muslim women's group has criticised a suggestion they should stop wearing headscarves for fear of hate attacks.



There has been a rise in religious hate crime since the London attacks
A Muslim women's group has criticised a suggestion they should stop wearing headscarves for fear of hate attacks.
The Assembly for the Protection of the Hijab said wearing the traditional Islamic scarf was a duty and compromising was giving in to violence.

But chairman of the Council of Mosques and Imams Dr Zaki Badawi said removal was justified, as wearing it in the present climate might invite harm.

Dr Badawi's ruling comes after a huge rise in faith hate crimes in London.



The Metropolitan Police said on Wednesday that there were 269 crimes in the three weeks after the 7 July bombings, compared with 40 in the same period of 2004.

Dr Badawi, who is seen as a progressive Muslim leader who advocates integration, warned that "a woman wearing the hijab... could suffer aggression from irresponsible elements".

"In the present tense situation, with the rise of attacks on Muslims, we advise Muslim women who fear being attacked physically or verbally to remove their hijab so as not to be identified by those hostile to Muslims."

The hijab was designed to identify women as Muslim and thus protect them from molestation, he said, so if it led to harassment it ought not to be worn.

"Dress is meant to protect from harm, not to invite it," he added.

Dr Badawi said he had sought to clarify the situation after being approached by a concerned woman.

His ruling did not mean that women should not wear the headscarf, but simply gave them the choice to remove it if they felt threatened, he said.

'Identities'

But Rajnaara Akhtar, of the Assembly for the Protection of the Hijab, said women should not abandon the key outward symbol of their faith.

To remove the headscarf denies women's "identities as Muslims", she said.




She added that the Koran only allowed woman to remove the hijab if they feared for their lives.

"It's not about life and death. It's not so extreme that if we step out of our house with our hijab we are going to get attacked."

She added that most people in Britain understood that those who attacked London were not Muslims.

Stop-and-search

Giles Keppell, a Middle East academic expert who advised the French government on its move to ban Muslim headscarves in schools, said Britain was a very multi-cultural society where differences between groups had been encouraged.

But he pointed out that: "for the time being the situation in Britain is very peculiar".

Met Police Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur said there was no doubt that incidents "impacting on" the Muslim community had increased.



Dr Badawi said the hijab should not be worn if it invited attacks

Communities were also frustrated by the increased use of stop-and-search and the new "shoot-to-kill to protect" policy for suicide bombers, he said.

"It can lead to these communities completely retreating and not engaging at a time when we want their engagement and support," he warned.

A spokesman for the Muslim Safety Forum, an umbrella group which works closely with the police, said the figures reflected a recent increase in calls to their members about abuse and attacks.

The figures emerged as Home Office minister Hazel Blears held the first in a series of meetings with Muslim community groups.

Ahead of the meeting, Ms Blears pledged that Muslims would not be discriminated against by police trying to prevent potential terror attacks.

She also opposed racial profiling, saying stop and searches should be based on good intelligence, not just skin colour.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
skaswani



Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 95

PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:36 am    Post subject: Re: Facing Kaba'a Reply with quote

arzimood wrote:
Ya Ali Madad!
I wanted to know that do we face the Kaba'a when offering prayers? if anyone could help me out with this.


ya Ali madad
refer to quran

The Meaning of The Holy Qur'an. Surah:2. Al-Baqarah. Ayah 177

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

Translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. V2.2.1



regards, ya Ali madad
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
yaali101



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject: Common sense Reply with quote

Ok, I am sure someone might have thought of this already, but isn't the world round?(actualy oval shapes to be specific). So arn't we facing the Kaba no matter which way we look? And if someones wants to say that no the world is round so if you face a certain direction then you are facing out in space, I would reply by saying the same logic applies if you face the east. I just wanted to put in my opinion. Also, I am always facing the Kaba - it is in my heart. Could the jamat khane not be considered the Kaba since the kaba was a place of woship (gods home) built by Abraham?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you're in orbit, which way is Mecca?
12:14 21 April 2006
NewScientist.com news service
Kelly Young

Malaysia's National Space Agency is trying to determine how its astronaut candidates will practice Islam in space. Three of its four astronaut candidates are Muslim, and two will be selected for a future Russian space flight.

Once in their orbiting spacecraft, they will circle the Earth once every 90 minutes. Traditionally, Muslims pray five times per day, at times connected to the position of the Sun in the sky. This will make prayer observance a challenge if they accept a "day" as being just 90 minutes long.

A similar problem occurs for Muslims who live close to Earth's polar regions where there are long periods of daylight or darkness. Islamic legal scholars traditionally say that in such situations, a Muslim should pray as they would at a particular, relatively high latitude, even if they venture nearer the poles.

"Any legal scholar advising these astronauts would have to simply pick various times that would roughly correspond to their morning, noon, afternoon, sunset and night prayers," says Alan Godlas, a professor of religion at the University of Georgia, US.

Minor ablutions

Additionally, Muslims turn toward Mecca when they pray. Zooming around the Earth at 28,000 kilometres per hour might make pinpointing the exact location of Mecca pretty tricky. Godlas says that orienting oneself toward Earth might be good enough. "There are instances where the prophet indicated a wide swathe; kind of a general direction," Godlas says.

And Muslims have a cleansing ritual, known as ablutions, before prayer. But water is used sparingly in space. Godlas says astronauts could force water between their two hands and then moisten the body during a minor ablution.

On Earth, it is ideal to have water running along the arms from the faucet, but water does not flow downward in microgravity. Godlas says that when water is not available, scholars have determined a pure rock could be used to wipe the hands. The hands could then clean the forearms, face and feet.

Saudi Arabian astronaut Sultan Salman Al-Saud flew aboard the shuttle in 1985. He was scheduled to look out the shuttle's window to see the crescent of the new moon to mark the end of the Muslim religious holiday, Ramadan.

Electric menorah
About 150 scientists, astronauts, religious scholars and academics are expected to gather in Malaysia on 25 and 26 April for an "Islam and Life in Space" seminar.

People have found ways to celebrate other religions above Earth. Israel's first astronaut Ilan Ramon, who died in the shuttle Columbia accident, was not a religious Jew, but he ate some Kosher food aboard the shuttle and observed the Jewish Sabbath. But rather than observing Sabbath every seventh sundown, Ramon followed the timings on Earth.
Walter Sipes, chief of operational psychology at NASA's Johnson Space Center, says that a menorah (a Jewish candle holder) has not yet been requested for a long mission aboard the space station. It might be possible to send a menorah with little electric bulbs, he says.

Streaming religion
Christianity has had a long history in space. Of the 29 Apollo astronauts, 23 were Protestant and six were Catholic.

Buzz Aldrin, a Presbyterian, gave himself Holy Communion once his lunar lander touched down on the Moon. And while circling the Moon during the Apollo 8 mission, Frank Borman apologised to his Episcopal congregation because he would not make it back to Earth in time to be a lay reader on Christmas Eve. Borman and his crew did read from the book of Genesis.
Now, if astronauts request it, NASA can send up streaming video of religious services. There is also a Christmas tree on the International Space Station. "For some, religion is very comforting and we certainly want to respect that," Sipes told New Scientist.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
nashvelshi



Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 404
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a good article km.

How would an Ismaili astronaut approach this issue? Am I correct in assuming that praying in the direction of Mecca is a formalistic requirement for muslims but that Ismailis are not as strongly bound by this requirement as other muslims because our qibla is the Imam of the time, whose spiritual presence is everywhere. Hence, anywhere we look, face or point is appropriate for Ismailis.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
logical



Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nashvelshi wrote:
Thats a good article km.

How would an Ismaili astronaut approach this issue? Am I correct in assuming that praying in the direction of Mecca is a formalistic requirement for muslims but that Ismailis are not as strongly bound by this requirement as other muslims because our qibla is the Imam of the time, whose spiritual presence is everywhere. Hence, anywhere we look, face or point is appropriate for Ismailis.


Agree!
For a deen that is shariati, it would pose problems as would wadhu or ritual cleaning and fasting from sun-rise to sun-set, and all other aspects.

For a deen that is haqiqati, the question doesn't arise. Like, when you are travelling and its time for prayers, you say your prayers wherever you are.

Make your heart the qibla. You won't find the Divine on a prayer mat or in the Ka'ba. Find the Divine within your heart.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
logical



Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2006 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


Make your heart the qibla. You won't find the Divine on a prayer mat or in the Ka'ba. Find the Divine within your heart.



Ponder this.
When it's Du'a time:
The Eyes are closed with the Head bowed.
Head Bowed towards the Heart or the Qibla.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
logical



Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2006 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

logical wrote:
Quote:


Make your heart the qibla. You won't find the Divine on a prayer mat or in the Ka'ba. Find the Divine within your heart.



Ponder this.
When it's Du'a time:
The Eyes are closed with the Head bowed.
Head Bowed towards the Heart or the Qibla.


Pls allow me to make one correction to the above post:
The last line or,

Head Bowed towards the Heart or the Qibla.[/quote]

s/b

Head Bowed towards the Qibla of the Heart.

Or. one may use:
Head Bowed towards the The Imam of the Heart.

re tu(n)hee ...
jees gurku(n) satagur kahu(n)
so ve bhae ghatt maa(n)e re;
jo ghattathee pragatt hoe,
to rome rome sukh paaere......................................IX
O You, ... The one whom I call the True Guide is really within us. When this fact is realised through the inner enlightenment, then one attains peace in every pore of his being(his/her whole being is immersed in peace and joy). Part 9 Pir Sadardin's Buj Niranjan

Mowlana Rumi writes:
O my soul, where can I find rest
but in the shimmering love of his heart?
Where can I see the pure light of the Sun
but in the eyes of my own Shams-e Tabriz?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
ZAly



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<P>We as Ismailis&nbsp; do lots of physical stuff as well, as mentioned earlier like Dua, Dasoond etc. Dasoond is material for us and for MHI but its a part of our religion.<BR><BR>I have just started reading the Quran and I have got clarity regarding lots of things<FONT face="Times New Roman"></P><P align=left>Al-Waiz (missionary) Abualy writes in " &#39;Ismaili Tariqah&#39; page 184:</P><P align=left>"Facing Qibla in prayer is not a fundamental principle of Islam, it is a</P><P align=left>tradition</P><P align=left>Is the command of Allah a tradition? Is not obedience to the Command of Allah the</P><P align=left>most fundamental principle of Islam? </P><P align=left>Allah Commands:</P></FONT><B><FONT face="Times New Roman"><P align=center>"From whencesoever thou startest forth (for prayer) turn thy face in the direction</P><P align=center>of the Sacred Mosque (Qibla): That is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not</P><P align=center>unmindful of what ye do. So from whencesoever thou startest forth, turn thy face in</P><P align=center>the direction of the Sacred Mosque; among wheresoever ye are turn your face</P><P align=center>thither: That there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except</P><P align=center>those of them that are bent o&shy;n wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I</P><P align=center>may complete My favours o&shy;n you, and ye may be guided".</P><P align=center>Holy Quran 2/ 149-150</P></B></FONT>
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
ZAly



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Think there is something wrong with the VISUAL MODE). Ignore previous reponse please.

We as Ismailis do lots of physical stuff as well, as mentioned earlier like Dua, Dasoond etc. Dasoond is material for us and for MHI but its a part of our religion. I have just started reading the Quran and I have got clarity regarding lots of things
Al-Waiz (missionary) Abualy writes in "Ismaili Tariqah page 184:
"Facing Qibla in prayer is not a fundamental principle of Islam, it is a tradition
Is the command of Allah a tradition? Is not obedience to the Command of Allah the most fundamental principle of Islam? Allah Commands:
"From whencesoever thou startest forth (for prayer) turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque (Qibla): That is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. So from whencesoever thou startest forth, turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; among wheresoever ye are turn your face thither: That there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye may be guided".
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZAly wrote:
Is the command of Allah a tradition? Is not obedience to the Command of Allah the most fundamental principle of Islam? Allah Commands:
"From whencesoever thou startest forth (for prayer) turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque (Qibla): That is indeed the truth from thy Lord. And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. So from whencesoever thou startest forth, turn thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque; among wheresoever ye are turn your face thither: That there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye may be guided".


It is also stated in the Quran:

Surah:2. Al-Baqarah. Ayah 177

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing.

Translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. V2.2.1

This is an example where the Quran can be ambiguous and hence the need for the guidance of the Imams/Pirs.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kandani



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the verses that are TAKEN to imply facing the Kaba state do not mention the Kaba by name..

Intead the mention things like "Turn thy face towards the Sacred Mosque (al-masjid al-haraam)."

The question is: What is the Sacred Mosque (al-masjid al-haraam)?

a) the Kaba
b) the Murshid
c) the Imam
d) the Heart
e) Allah Himself

Islam has 4 stages of shariah, tariqah, haqiqah, and marifah. Perhaps the prayer direction depends upon what stage of Islam the person practices?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mecca mosques 'wrongly aligned'

Some 200 mosques in Islam's holiest city, Mecca, point the wrong way for prayers, reports from Saudi Arabia say.

All mosques have a niche showing the direction of the most sacred Islamic site, the Kaaba, an ancient cube-like building in Mecca's Grand Mosque.

But people looking down from recently built high-rises in Mecca found the niches in many older mosques were not pointing directly towards the Kaaba.

Some worshippers are said to be anxious about the validity of their prayers.

There have been suggestions that laser beams could be used to make an exact measurement.

Tawfik al-Sudairy, Islamic affairs ministry deputy secretary, downplayed the problem in remarks quoted by the pan-Arab newspaper al-Hayat.

"There are no major errors but corrections have been made for some old mosques, thanks to modern techniques," he said.

"In any case, it does not affect the prayers."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7984556.stm
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Saima



Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard the following anecdote from late Rai Abu Ali Missionary's waez. It's been a while, so I don't know which one, but if I come across it again, I'll let you know. The story goes as follows:

During Prophet Muhammad's time, the holy Prophet and all the Muslims were returning from the Hajj, and it was time for prayers. It was a very large group of people, so the Prophet gathered everyone and announced that everyone face in this particular direction (pointing to a direction) so we are in a uniform manner when praying. Everyone did as told and they said their namaz. Right after the namaz, the Jews who witnessed this incident came up to the Muslims and mocked them, saying you're Prophet made you bow in the direction of our great synagogue in Jerusalem! Muslims were upset why the Prophet made them do this, and they went to the Prophet to complain.

Since going back from Pilgrimage took them days, before you know it, it was time for prayers again. Since the Muslims had complained to the Prophet about facing the synagogue, this time the Prophet pointed them to a different direction. Now, when they completed the prayers, Christians came up to them and laughed at them for facing their religious structure. (I can't remember what the structure was since it's been a while I heard this story.) So again the Muslims went to the Prophet to complain why is he making them face towards symbols from different religions.

It was Namaz time again, and this time, the third time, to avoid all the confusion and confrontation, the Prophet said to face Kaaba! The followers of the Prophet were now satisfied that they are bowing down to their own religion. And thus, the tradition among Sunnis continued. We have to keep in mind that Sunnis are following the Prophet's Sunnah, because they don't have a spiritual leader who can guide them according to the times.


Also, Mowlana Hazar Imam has mentioned on several occasions that say your prayers on time, wherever you are. If you can't say them on time, then say Tasbih. He has never mentioned that say your prayers only facing the Kaaba.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mu'ayyad fi'd-din al-Shirazi:

"The first direction of prayer (qiblah) God - may He be praised - commanded to turn towards is the living qiblah (qiblah hayy), Adam."

From the Majalis al-Hikmah, Vol II. Majlis No. 57
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
m0786



Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ismaili Brothers

AS

Going thru Namaaz, Roza, Kaaba, Hajj discussions it appears that even Ismailis are confused about fasting in Ramadan, facing Kaaba and Hajj.

These things are clear cut to Islamic Ummah (Both Shia and Sunnis).

They all pray Salat. There are minor differences how they hold hands or raise their hands. Shias usually combine their prayers in 3 times but they do pray 5 prayers.

They all fast in Ramadan but may differ on stating of Ramadan.

They all believe that Hajj is a fard on those who can afford it.

Reading thru discussions it appears there are different views.

Is it not possible to have definite ruling from Hazir Imaam on the matter of fasting in Ramadan or other usul-e-deen?

It appears that there will be new guidance on prayers for Ismailies in the near future.


Wasalaam
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0786 wrote:
Reading thru discussions it appears there are different views.

Is it not possible to have definite ruling from Hazir Imaam on the matter of fasting in Ramadan or other usul-e-deen?

It appears that there will be new guidance on prayers for Ismailies in the near future.
Wasalaam


Ismailism has evolved through diverse historical and cultural backgrounds and hence we would expect differences in outlook and interpretations of faith. And of course there is room for the application of intellect in our faith. Our Imams have addressed this issue on a number of occasions. In his memoir MSMS says:

"Ismailism has survived because it has always been fluid. Rigidity is contrary to our whole way of life and outlook. There have really been no cut and dried rules; even the set of regulations known as the Holy Laws are directions as to method and procedure and not detailed orders about results to be obtained. In some countries-India and Africa for example-the Ismailis have a council system, under which their local councillors are charged with all internal administrative responsibility, and report to me what they have done. In Syria, Central Asia and Iran, leadership, as I have said, is vested in hereditary recommended leaders and chiefs, who are the Imam's representatives and who look after the administration of the various jamats, or congregations."

Below is an excerpt of an interview of MHI with the ITV London in Chantilly France on 5th Jume 1985 addressing the issue.

Q29. What makes the Ismailies different from the mainstream Shiite Islam.

A29. Probably that there is a living Imam who traces his family back
to Hazrat Ali. The majority of the Shia today are known as
the twelver Shia and they believe in hidden Imam.

Q30. Do you have any sympathy with the more fundamentalist elements of Shiism with the leaders for example of Iran, Pakistan or Libya

A 3O- I understand what are the pressures upon them, whether I necessarily share the reactions to those pressures is not necessarily true. I think one has to be very careful in the interpretation of Islam, not anchor that interpretation at one time in history.If you make Islam a faith of the past, you in a sense make it impossible for the Muslim to practise his faith today and in the future and as a Muslim, I totally reject the concept that the message of Islam is tied to any given time after the revelation of the faith and Islam must practise by people today and hundred and hundred years, two hundred years. And if Islam is a faith for ever, then leadership must be very careful not to harness it to concept of a given time.

Q31. How do you think your own approach to Islam is regarded by
somebody like Ayatoullah Khumeini-


A31. I have never discussed that with the Ayatoullah, but I can
imagine there are some areas on which we would differ, particularly with regard may be to the rigid interpretation of certain parts may be, of tradition but I think that the hope that the Islamic world will find a chance to govern itself within an Islamic view of life, is one which is shared by a very very large numbe of people.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
m0786



Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Br. kmaherali;

AS

JAK for response.


Quote:
There have really been no cut and dried rules


So I understand that Ismaili Muslim is not requred to face towads Kaaba while praying even though it is clear in Qur'an prayer direction is towards Kaaba. Yes or No?

If I may apply my inteellect in reasoning that when Ismaili Muslim prays in Jamaat he prays facing prayer leader and officials representing MHI. Therefore he is praying towards MHI. Hense MHI is Kaaba!

Wasalaam
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0786 wrote:
So I understand that Ismaili Muslim is not requred to face towads Kaaba while praying even though it is clear in Qur'an prayer direction is towards Kaaba. Yes or No?

If I may apply my inteellect in reasoning that when Ismaili Muslim prays in Jamaat he prays facing prayer leader and officials representing MHI. Therefore he is praying towards MHI. Hense MHI is Kaaba!

Wasalaam


It appears that you haven't read the whole thread. I would like to draw your attention to the post below by kandani.

"All the verses that are TAKEN to imply facing the Kaba state do not mention the Kaba by name..

Intead the mention things like "Turn thy face towards the Sacred Mosque (al-masjid al-haraam)."

The question is: What is the Sacred Mosque (al-masjid al-haraam)?

a) the Kaba
b) the Murshid
c) the Imam
d) the Heart
e) Allah Himself

Islam has 4 stages of shariah, tariqah, haqiqah, and marifah. Perhaps the prayer direction depends upon what stage of Islam the person practices?"
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
m0786



Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Islam has 4 stages of shariah, tariqah, haqiqah, and marifah. Perhaps the prayer direction depends upon what stage of Islam the person practices?"


Can you give Qur'anic or Sunnah references of these 4 stages?

Can you post Kaaba direction for all stages.

Wasalaam
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0786 wrote:
Can you give Qur'anic or Sunnah references of these 4 stages?

Can you post Kaaba direction for all stages.

Wasalaam


The Quran states that Allah is the Lord of the Worlds. These Worlds can be interpretated as the 4 stages. Can you provide the Quranic reference to Kaaba?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
m0786



Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Quran states that Allah is the Lord of the Worlds. These Worlds can be interpretated as the 4 stages


How? Please elaborate.

Quote:
Can you provide the Quranic reference to Kaaba?


Qur'an 2:143-144
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0786 wrote:
How? Please elaborate.

According to the esoteric traditions within and without Islam, creation is not the world ‘out there’ but it is the projection or the exteriorization of our consciousness. In other words it is not an objective reality but it is a subjective one and is our perception of it. Our world will change as we change inwardly and hence there can be many worlds which can be classified in four categories: the world of the Shariat, the world of the Tariqat, the world of the Haqiqat and the world of the Marifat.

There has been an explanation along the same lines from a Quranic perspective and is given in one of our threads: doctrines --> the seven heavens? at http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2080&highlight=seven+heavens

The seven heavens can also be categorized within the four levels....
m0786 wrote:
Qur'an 2:143-144

I cannot see explicit reference to Kaaba in the verses. If you have interpreted the Qibla to be the Kaaba, then it is another matter. Quran is open to multiple interpretations. After all, Ayats are signs pointing to a deeper reality and should not be taken literally always.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
m0786



Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is Pooya/Ali comments

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:142]
For "the east and the west belong to Allah" see commentary of verses 107 and 115 of this surah.
Qiblah is the direction towards which the face is turned. In Makka, the Holy Prophet used to face Jerusalem at the time of praying salat, but the holy Kabah was always between him and the first qiblah Even in Madina, he continued to pray towards Jerusalem for seventeen months, after which Allah accepted the Holy Prophet's request to change the qiblah, because the Jews of Madina had been mocking the Muslims for not having their own qiblah.
In fulfilment of the divine promise to bless Ibrahim and Ismail, it was necessary to make the house built by them, the final qiblah for the worship of Allah, by the followers of the perfected and completed religion of Allah, for all times.
(Please note house built by Ibrahim and Ismail is structure known as Kabah)

Reference to surah al Fil makes it clear that to keep safe the highly venerated house of Allah, Allah Himself destroyed the army of Abraha who came to demolish the holy Kabah.This change was also a prophecy that Makka would, one day, come into the hands of the Muslims, and that it would be cleared of the false gods, because a centre of idolatry could never have been the qiblah of a thoroughly monotheistic faith.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:143]
To understand this verse it is necessary to know the meanings of some important words and phrases used in it.
(1) Ummat does not always mean a community or a nation. In verse 120 of al Nahl it refers to a single individual-Verily Ibrahim was a people (ummat) obedient to Allah.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:144]
Madina is located between Makka and Jerusalem. Facing Jerusalem, standing in Madina, meant turning the hinder parts of the body towards Makka. Since the Holy Prophet knew that the holy Kabah in Makka was going to be the ultimate qiblah, he did not like to turn his back towards it.
The Jews knew that the Holy Prophet was the final messenger of Allah (see verse 40 of this surah)
[color=red]They also knew that the holy Kabah, with the "black stone" set in one of its corners, was destined to be the qiblah of the true believers. [/color]
"The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief corner-stone."
(Psalms: 118 : 22 and Matthew 2 1 : 42).
Prophet Isa said: "He will bring those bad men to a bad end, and hand the vineyard over to other tenants, who will let him have his share of the crop when the season comes." It was a parable narrated to the Jews. It happened exactly as the Jews were warned. When the Jews failed to fulfil the covenant, the covenant of Allah was transferred to the descendants of Ismail.
Then Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected has become the main corner-stone. This is the Lord's doing, and it is wonderful in our eyes? Therefore, I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and given to a nation that yields the proper fruit." When the chief priests and Pharisees heard his parables, they saw that he was referring to them. (Matthew 21 :42 to 45).
The kingdom of God, the spiritual leadership of mankind, transferred to the descendants of Ismail, remains with the family of the Holy Prophet, the divinely chosen holy Imams.
For it was he whom the Lord your God chose from all your tribes to attend on the Lord and to minister in the name of the Lord, both he and his sons for all time. (Deut: 18: 5)
Isa said:
I will ask the Father, and he will give you another to be your advocate, who will be with you for ever. (John 14: 16).
Isa referred to the Holy Prophet as the advocate or the comforter who would succeed him and be with the people for ever. Isa's prophecy is proved true in the Holy Prophet and his descendants, the last of whom is our living Imam.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
m0786



Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I cannot see explicit reference to Kaaba in the verses. If you have interpreted the Qibla to be the Kaaba,


There is no explicit word but scared mosque is in Mecca and Kabah is structure in the mosque. Sahabas were much smarter then knit pickers and the Prophet did not have to draw 'X' on the floor of Kabah to indicate quiblah for them.


Quote:
Quran is open to multiple interpretations.


Do you have MHI's interpretation of these Ayah?

Quote:
After all, Ayats are signs pointing to a deeper reality and should not be taken literally always


If it suits your purpose then you may take it literally, othrwise, you may start looking for deeper meaning.

Why it is so difficult to accept Kabah as quiblah for Musims, followers of last Prophet of Allah? Ismailis can choose whatever quibla they deem necessary.

I hope you will accept that for Muslims (Both Sunni snd major Tarikas of Shia) Salat/Namaz, fast in Ramadan and Hajj if you can afford it is Usul-e-deen
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20750

PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0786 wrote:

There is no explicit word but scared mosque is in Mecca and Kabah is structure in the mosque. Sahabas were much smarter then knit pickers and the Prophet did not have to draw 'X' on the floor of Kabah to indicate quiblah for them..

The point being made is that it is open to interpretation. Your interpretation is valid but there are other valid interpretations as well.
m0786 wrote:

Do you have MHI's interpretation of these Ayah?

Not an explicit one, but we have guidance from him regarding prayers which should be recited at any place. He has also highlighted verses which point to Allah's pesence evrywhere such as ‘Wherever you turn, there is the face of Allah’(Sura al-Baqara).
m0786 wrote:

If it suits your purpose then you may take it literally, othrwise, you may start looking for deeper meaning.

Why it is so difficult to accept Kabah as quiblah for Musims, followers of last Prophet of Allah? Ismailis can choose whatever quibla they deem necessary.

I hope you will accept that for Muslims (Both Sunni snd major Tarikas of Shia) Salat/Namaz, fast in Ramadan and Hajj if you can afford it is Usul-e-deen

That is the beauty of the Quran, that it can be interpreted in many different ways according to the capacity of individuals. I have no problems with how other Muslims practice their faith as long as they respect mine. There ispluralsim in Islam.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Rites and Ceremonies All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Page 3 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400