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Facing Kaba'a
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:


Once again...there is NO FARMAN, NO GUIDANCE GIVEN TO TARIQAH BOARDS ...point to a farman where MHI has said I want you to start facing the Kaaba...
if we should face the kaaba because it is the house of God..for me Ali = Allah..and MHI is the current Imam..he lives in France..maybe I should start facing France..or where he is in the world physically to start pray...
Tell me why we should face the Kaaba..
and if you say because the other muslims do..then..
The premise of your arguement if based on the version of Arabist Islam is ludicrous...next you will be telling us that the women need to sit behind the men and wear hijabs.

Guidance given to Imaara (having access to the materials) is for a specific purpose..it is for the reason to build bridges within the Ummah..
We are a batin faith..
MHI has stressed over and over again in various farmans that our prayers are so simple and so easy to recite that we can do it in private and no one will even realize..
a quote from the toronto farman:
"We will not look backwards and draw only experience and learning from our history."
Toronto March 8th Am Session.

The evolution of any faith should always progress not regress.

Shams

I don't remember saying the Guidance was to the Tariqa board,. Or did I? icon_twisted.gif
You need to stop assuming things and deal with the facts! Or wake up and smell the coffee---sorry the CHAI!!!
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
ShamsB wrote:


Once again...there is NO FARMAN, NO GUIDANCE GIVEN TO TARIQAH BOARDS ...point to a farman where MHI has said I want you to start facing the Kaaba...
if we should face the kaaba because it is the house of God..for me Ali = Allah..and MHI is the current Imam..he lives in France..maybe I should start facing France..or where he is in the world physically to start pray...
Tell me why we should face the Kaaba..
and if you say because the other muslims do..then..
The premise of your arguement if based on the version of Arabist Islam is ludicrous...next you will be telling us that the women need to sit behind the men and wear hijabs.

Guidance given to Imaara (having access to the materials) is for a specific purpose..it is for the reason to build bridges within the Ummah..
We are a batin faith..
MHI has stressed over and over again in various farmans that our prayers are so simple and so easy to recite that we can do it in private and no one will even realize..
a quote from the toronto farman:
"We will not look backwards and draw only experience and learning from our history."
Toronto March 8th Am Session.

The evolution of any faith should always progress not regress.

Shams

I don't remember saying the Guidance was to the Tariqa board,. Or did I? icon_twisted.gif
You need to stop assuming things and deal with the facts! Or wake up and smell the coffee---sorry the CHAI!!!


I did quote the facts..your statement was that the guidance was to IMAARA...IMAARA isn't an institution that deals with Tariqah matters..
thus my statement was...no Guidance to Tariqah which is the institution that deals with matters of the PRACTISE OF THE FAITH - which is a Batini Faith...
on the one hand..you have issues with Ginans..and on the other ...you bring up the issue..funny dichotmy isn't it?

Shams
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:


I did quote the facts..your statement was that the guidance was to IMAARA...IMAARA isn't an institution that deals with Tariqah matters..
thus my statement was...no Guidance to Tariqah which is the institution that deals with matters of the PRACTISE OF THE FAITH - which is a Batini Faith...
on the one hand..you have issues with Ginans..and on the other ...you bring up the issue..funny dichotmy isn't it?

Shams

No, Stop being silly IMAARA is sole job is to build and maintain JKs. If JKs are built to face Kaaba and what happens when you enter and sit in, you are facing Kaaba.
Dichotomy huh, I am not the one who is introducing two contradictory opinions in the as thread. I believe this thread is about Facing Kaaba not Ginnans...
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unnalhaq wrote:
ShamsB wrote:


I did quote the facts..your statement was that the guidance was to IMAARA...IMAARA isn't an institution that deals with Tariqah matters..
thus my statement was...no Guidance to Tariqah which is the institution that deals with matters of the PRACTISE OF THE FAITH - which is a Batini Faith...
on the one hand..you have issues with Ginans..and on the other ...you bring up the issue..funny dichotmy isn't it?

Shams

No, Stop being silly IMAARA is sole job is to build and maintain JKs. If JKs are built to face Kaaba and what happens when you enter and sit in, you are facing Kaaba.
Dichotomy huh, I am not the one who is introducing two contradictory opinions in the as thread. I believe this thread is about Facing Kaaba not Ginnans...


I didn't bring up Ginans...was just making a point in regards to your bistance on this.
Once again..Imaara builds Jamat Khanas...how we pray inside them is upto the TARIQAH.
Jamat Khana's may face one way..however inside them..we may face another way...
Think of the Mukhi/Kamadia Sahebs and the amaldaris..they will always face the opposite direction..does that mean they aren't praying..
comeon don't be ridiculous in this issue..making us face kaaba would be taking us backwards in terms of the evolution of the faith...
My arguement is that facing Kaaba isn't a requirement of our faith at this time..i don't think it will ever be..however if it is..and the Imam makes a farman..i will face Kaaba...or Haram e Sharif or the Superdome..whereever he says..but he has to say it....you are more than welcome to do it with your own accord...because as you state..you are the "pure" ismaili..i am just a corrupted by Khoja's non Khoja Ismaili...
There is a farman of Imam Aga Ali Shah..which states..why do you follow the arabic speaking Maulvis when you have me..the noor of Ali amongst you.
Understand this..Imaara can buy or build jamatkhanas facing east..that is an exterior..what happens on the inside..is a different story all together.


Shams
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s786



Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB

If you have farmans of Aga Aly Shah, share them. Don't be like the council and take things away from us.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5997

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

s786 wrote:
ShamsB

If you have farmans of Aga Aly Shah, share them. Don't be like the council and take things away from us.


Admin says:

Sorry, there are farmans of Aga Ali Shah but we don't want to see these or any Farmans posted here.


Last edited by Admin on Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

s786 wrote:
ShamsB

If you have farmans of Aga Aly Shah, share them. Don't be like the council and take things away from us.


I've quoted from the farmans of Aga Aly Shah..for one who truly wants to learn and is open..that should be enough. For one who has a predetermined agenda in mind..well that's altogether another story.

Admin: I will not post any farmans.


Shams.
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fmitha



Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Ismailis we do face the Kaba when we pray and like other Muslims, which we are, there is no not to. Sure, you can say that our tariqah is a batini tariqah but that does not mean that we neglect the exoteric for the esoteric. If you read Fatimid Ismaili teachings it discusses a balance between the exoteric and the esoteric. I can quote sources but I dont have them on me at this time.

The bottom line is, when we select places for new JKs we make sure it is set up to face the Kaba and the Qur'an is very clear about this as well. It is a sign of unity in the Ummah which we are a part of. At the same time there is a verse in Surat al-Baqara which says,

"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets... (Q 2:177)"

This is true but all this verse does is imply that righteousness is not determined by facing a certain direction however any Muslim will agree with that. That does not mean though that we are not supposed to do it.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think Ismailis do face Kaaba..In which part of the world Ismailis have started facing Kaaba? You are quoting about Fatmid times then practices at that time were different from now.
Do you think God is only in Kaaba? Kaaba means house of God. It is the house in which Hazrat Ali the tenth manifestation took place. God is present every where. There is not any Farman to face Kaaba while reciting Dua.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
I dont think Ismailis do face Kaaba..In which part of the world Ismailis have started facing Kaaba? You are quoting about Fatmid times then practices at that time were different from now.
Do you think God is only in Kaaba? Kaaba means house of God. It is the house in which Hazrat Ali the tenth manifestation took place. God is present every where. There is not any Farman to face Kaaba while reciting Dua.



another thing to add to this..the person reciting the dua..or ginan..or farman...with the exception of ghatpat dua..which at times is recited from the side of jamatkhana due to space constraints....IS ALWAYS GOING TO FACE THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.....
and this is the person that the other muslims would say is the Imam..the leader of the prayer....
next we'll be hearing that women can't recite dua because the other muslims don't allow women to lead prayer!...

Shams.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20404

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmitha wrote:

The bottom line is, when we select places for new JKs we make sure it is set up to face the Kaba and the Qur'an is very clear about this as well. It is a sign of unity in the Ummah which we are a part of. At the same time there is a verse in Surat al-Baqara which says,


I think we should not read too much into the fact that MHI has given guidance for new JKs to be built facing the Kaba. In my opinion it is just to project an attitude of bridge bulding and unity with other Tariqahs as JK buildings are the most visible expression of who we are.

But what takes place within JKs is a completely different matter. MHI in the following excerpt of a speech makes it quite clear that JKs are distinct from masjids and their functions are different.

"At this juncture, perhaps, it would be appropriate to situate one of the functions of the Ismaili Centre in the tradition of Muslim piety. For many centuries, a prominent feature of the Muslim religious landscape has been the variety of spaces of gathering co-existing harmoniously with the masjid, which in itself has accommodated a range of diverse institutional spaces for educational, social and reflective purposes. Historically serving communities of different interpretations and spiritual affiliations, these spaces have retained their cultural nomenclatures and characteristics, from ribat and zawiyya to khanaqa and jamatkhana. The congregational space incorporated within the Ismaili Centre belongs to the historic category of jamatkhana, an institutional category that also serves a number of sister Sunni and Shia communities, in their respective contexts, in many parts of the world. Here, it will be space reserved for traditions and practices specific to the Shia Ismaili tariqah of Islam."(Speech by His Highness the Aga Khan
at the Foundation Laying Ceremony of the Ismaili Centre in Dubai, 13th Dec, 2003).


Last edited by kmaherali on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total
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fmitha



Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Star and Shams,

I'll tell you why I disagree with you point by point:

1) Ismailis do face the Ka'aba when we pray, one of the regulations of the community in finding a new site for the JK is to have it face Mecca this is can be confirmed by any local or national council president.

2) Last time i checked the world was round not flat. If the congregation is facing Mecca the person facing the congregation is also facing it. There is not only one way to face Mecca. Also people who are in different parts of the world face it in different directions. Here in the US you could techinically face East or West and still be facing it.

3) The meaning of Kaaba is not "House of God" but actually it's "cube." The Qur'an says that the Kaaba was built as the first mosque for mankind. Muslims also, do not face the Kaaba b/c we believe God is there, but because that is the direction God told the Muslims to face in the Qur'an. In fact before Muslims faced the Kaaba for prayer they faced Jerusalem until this directive was revealed.

4) Finally, the argument comparing women leading the prayer does not hold because there is no prohibition in the Qur'an, Sunnah or ahadith against women leading the prayer. In fact there is one instance in which the Prophet allowed a woman to lead prayer for men and women. Any Muslim who tells you there is a direct prohibition is mistaken. As you know Prof Amina Wadood recently led the first female led Jumah prayer in America. The direction to face when we pray on the other hand is a directive in the Qur'an and in the Sunnah of the Prophet and the Imams. Thus the analogy you drew doesn't work. One is matter of interpretation while the other is clearly spelled out.

Let me know of the arguments.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a Jamat Khana people sit facing all 4 directions and sometimes even more then 4 directions.

Technical arguments on facing North or South from North America is just that: technical. Half of the Sunni mosque face one directions and the other half face the other direction. Which Sunnis are we following? Those facing North East or those facing South East?

While there is no harm in facing any given direction, there is no obligation to do so in Ismailism.

And that obviously is a futile debate since in the future, people will be traveling and living in far distant planetes where there wil be no square nor round "cubes" to face.
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you Nagib but what is present has to be addressed. It is true that all four and in many cases more sides people face. I have visited many of the New JKs that have been constructed in last two decades and most of the time I had pre-requested a tour and 90% of my visits have been few hours before Dua times and I have found (in US and Canada) that there are specially designated "tour guides" volunteers assigned to give the tour and they are well knowledgeable in the architecture of the JK they represent. I have learned that in many cases there have been challenges that architects had to overcome due to local, county and/or state/provisional building codes required that the face of the building must be parallel to street/road. Also, all New JKs do follow the fire codes when it comes to capacity and parking requirements. I have also been told that once the capacity is reached the Jamet is sent to other JKs. An interesting note right before the Dua time (5min prior) there is a designated elimination of lights signaling the prayer times a top of the building; in many cases it is sort of a gazebo roof above the rotunda that is eliminated. Also the use of rotunda is utilized to satisfy the building codes requirements for facing the street as I mentioned before.
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fmitha



Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nagib,

I dont really understand your argument. We dont have to follow any Sunni mosque, my point is that you face in the direction of the kaaba, it doesnt matter how one does that. It if was only "technical" then why would it be specifically mentioned in the Qur'an and why would our community ensure that the congregation faces mecca in its regulations regarding the setup of JK? Secondly, I dont understand the future arguement, there is no guarantee that man will ever live on other planets and even if he did so, ijtehad could be used at that time to find an answer, for example, I think the argument can be made that facing the earth would be adaquete.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmitha wrote:
Nagib,

I dont really understand your argument. We dont have to follow any Sunni mosque, my point is that you face in the direction of the kaaba, it doesnt matter how one does that. It if was only "technical" then why would it be specifically mentioned in the Qur'an and why would our community ensure that the congregation faces mecca in its regulations regarding the setup of JK? Secondly, I dont understand the future arguement, there is no guarantee that man will ever live on other planets and even if he did so, ijtehad could be used at that time to find an answer, for example, I think the argument can be made that facing the earth would be adaquete.



Sorry..i don't buy your arguement that we have to follow the Qu'ran.
As mentioned before....We don't follow the Quran..we follow the Imam of the time..there are numerous farmans of Aga Ali Shah and MSMS stating that we should follow the Imam and Imam only...
there is also a hadith of the prophet where he says..in our times..we only need to follow 10% of what he preached..
.the practice of our faith is based on the Imam...remember he is the imam of the AGE AND TIME..he knows what is right and what is wrong...

i have given tan, man and dhan..if he says face the kaaba..i face the kaaba..so far he hasn't...and until he does..i don't need to...because for me...Allah is everywhere...and he's stated that in the Qur'an...

not only that..it is very specifically stated in our constitution that any changes to any practises of our faith...can only come from and be made by the Imam..he stated that is in his Farmans in Canada this time around...
The other issue is how can you say that there is no guarantee that we'll ever live on other planets? Forget the fact that Mowlana Hazar Imam has made a farman in 1967, that someday we'll go for tea on the moon or a weekend on Venus...
look at where we are currently..the International Space Station is in Orbit..China and India have been talking about sending manned missions to space and to the moon..Bush wants to build a base on the moon..i'd say in our lifetimes..this should be very possible that we'll have a muslim..maybe MUSLIMS in space..maybe even on the moon..let's see how they do Ramadhan or how they pray..living on the otherside of the moon or being on the other side of the Earth.

The third thing is..IF MHI wanted us to face the Kaaba..he'd make one farman and all of us would do it..(like the removal of the pictures)...he hasn't...
once again...the building of the new jamatkhanas...the exteriors serve one purpose..the interior others...
As nagib has said..the exteriors are built facing the way they're built because we're trying to build bridges with other faiths..
however...unlike other Muslims..NO NON ISMAILI IS ALLOWED INSIDE JAMATKHANA DURING PRAYER TIME...and I don't think that is EVER going to change...

I am not saying you all can't face Kaaba if you don't want to..to me..it doesn't make a heap of a difference where i face..
and if it makes me less of a muslim or an ismaili in anyones eyes...so be it..because i firmly believe my faith is the faith of conviction..not one of appeasment or apologetics or one that needs to fit in..
i follow the Imam...

Shams
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baitullah = House of Allah also called as Khana-e-Kabaa
Just like there was a time when people used to face the Photo of Hazir Imam while reciting dua, there was also a time when it was to say prayers while facing Kaaba.
2: 115 To Allah belong the East and the West; whithersoever ye turn there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is All-Pervading All-Knowing.
2: 142 The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qiblah to which they were used?" Say: To Allah belong both East and West; He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
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fmitha



Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand, but the bottom line is that our JKs do face Mecca, it seems like people on this forum are having a hard time understanding that. It is not to build bridges with other faiths. Plus, the Imam does not invent the relgion, he derives from the Qur'an and the Sunnah and as such all of our practicea and beliefs are rooted in them. He is the interpretor of the faith for modern time from the Qur'an and Sunnah. There are numerous farmans where he has said to read the Qur'an and to understand what it means in esoteric and exoteric means. Plus if you have the hadith and the source/isnad of the hadith in which the prophet said we only need to follow 10% of what he said I would love to see it.

The fact that non-Ismailis are not allowed in during prayer time further solidifies my arguement. B/c we should be able to face any way we want to b/c nobody else will be in there, so why do we still face the kaaba anyway?

Also, you're right that in the end it doesn't matter where you face. For example sometimes Muslims are in places where they dont know where the Kaaba is when it is time to pray and they just face any direction. But the Imam doens't have to make a farman about every single thing. Some things we should be able to learn on our own. If he tells us to read and understand the Qur'an there are many simple things we can derive from it w/o him having to tell us. For example: Fasting, Day of Judgement, Tawhid, basic history of the prophets, abstaining from pork, alcohol and gambling. I have never heard the Imam give a farman on eating pork but we still abstain from it? Why?

Also, to Allah does belong the East and the West but we do not face the Kaaba b/c Allah is literally there, and any Muslim will agree to that. It is because it is where Muslims were directed to pray and b/c of the significance of the place in relation to Abraham and the roots of our faith as Muslims.

I am new to this forum, let me know what you think of this. I only mean for friendly debate and discussion icon_smile.gif
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmitha wrote:
I understand, but the bottom line is that our JKs do face Mecca, it seems like people on this forum are having a hard time understanding that. It is not to build bridges with other faiths. Plus, the Imam does not invent the relgion, he derives from the Qur'an and the Sunnah and as such all of our practicea and beliefs are rooted in them. He is the interpretor of the faith for modern time from the Qur'an and Sunnah. There are numerous farmans where he has said to read the Qur'an and to understand what it means in esoteric and exoteric means. Plus if you have the hadith and the source/isnad of the hadith in which the prophet said we only need to follow 10% of what he said I would love to see it.

The fact that non-Ismailis are not allowed in during prayer time further solidifies my arguement. B/c we should be able to face any way we want to b/c nobody else will be in there, so why do we still face the kaaba anyway?

Also, you're right that in the end it doesn't matter where you face. For example sometimes Muslims are in places where they dont know where the Kaaba is when it is time to pray and they just face any direction. But the Imam doens't have to make a farman about every single thing. Some things we should be able to learn on our own. If he tells us to read and understand the Qur'an there are many simple things we can derive from it w/o him having to tell us. For example: Fasting, Day of Judgement, Tawhid, basic history of the prophets, abstaining from pork, alcohol and gambling. I have never heard the Imam give a farman on eating pork but we still abstain from it? Why?

Also, to Allah does belong the East and the West but we do not face the Kaaba b/c Allah is literally there, and any Muslim will agree to that. It is because it is where Muslims were directed to pray and b/c of the significance of the place in relation to Abraham and the roots of our faith as Muslims.

I am new to this forum, let me know what you think of this. I only mean for friendly debate and discussion icon_smile.gif


I can give you a whole list of JKs where when we pray we don't face Mecca..
BTW..not eating pork isn't the pregorative of muslims alone..the Jews don't eat pork..the Hindus don't eat pork...
there are farmans of MSMS saying we shouldn't eat pork...
try studying islamic history and you will realize that facing Kaaba came about the same reason as Hajj came about...
hajj existed before Islam..it was a trade fair..the prophet encouraged it to build brotherhood and unity...facing kaaba came from the same motive...to give the splintered muslims a central point of focus..something to Unite them...


and you are wrong in saying that the Imam derives our practises from the Quran..he doesn't need the Quran..
the imam was there before the Quran..and will be there after the Quran...
your arguement is one of shariat..our faith is above shariat..
also if you read my other points..you will realize that no matter which way the physical building of the jamat khana faces..prayers happening inside maybe going on in the opposite manner...
Our Jamat Khana we face North...and I am in North America...our Mukhisaheb and ther rest face South...no one faces east...except those sitting against the walls...
you are tying prayer to a physical action..when it should be one that is tied to a spiritual action...

once again..next we will hear..in the other muslim tariqahs..women wear Hijab..our women should do that too...

Shams
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fmitha



Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shams,

I am sure there are exceptions in which JK's face Mecca for example the one in Orlando does not from my understanding only because they were so despearate to find a location, they had to pick that place. There are always exceptions and islam is very flexible faith, however the guideliens for finding JK locations are for it to face Mecca.

Secondly I agree that other faiths do not eat pork. My main point in mentioning that was that we do not eat it yet this Imam has not specifically given a farman on it. Thus it is something we derive from the Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet and of our previous Imams. Meaning that he does not have to give a directive on EVERY issue if it is already clearly stated in the sources of Islam.

Also, I do believe the Imam derives our beliefs and pracitces from the Qur'an and Sunnah. For example, he cannot come out tommorrow and say that you dont have to pray anymore, or that you can drink alcohol or eat pork b/c it would contradict what the Qur'an says. Also if you read Hadith al-Thaqalayn, the two weighty things the Prophet left the community behind with are the Qur'an and the ahl-al-bayt. These two are intertwined. Thus he does need the Qur'an and if he didn't he wouldn't encourage us to read it. In fact there are farmans where he as taken apart words from verses of the Qur'an and asked members of the Jamat what they mean.

Also, just because something existed before Islam is not relevant. I realize Hajj was there before Islam but Islam carried that practice over. As I said earlier, the early Muslims used to pray facing Jerusalem until it was revealed for them to face Mecca, it is a pracitce of unity but why should it change now?

I am not making a pure shariat argument b/c as I said earlier, the essence (batini reason) for facing Kaaba is for unitiny while the exoteric reason is purly facing it for the sake of facing it. And there are always exceptions like if you are somewhere and you dont know where the Qibla is or your center just can't face that way for some logistical reason. Our faith is not above shariat but involves a balance between exoteric and exoteric. For example that fact that we congregate to pray is exoteric but the essence and reasoning behind the prayers is essoteric. If we were purely an esocteric faith then we would have no outward expression of our faith.

The hijab argument is flawed because no where in the Qur'an does it tell women specifically to cover wear hijab. It stresses modesty and the ahadith that talk about veiling are purely contextual to that time period. Thus that practice is based on cultural norms of a specific society. Today for example, if you go to Afghanistan, or Norther pakistan, the Ismaili women there do wear hijab because that is their cultural norm for modesty. Any Muslim that tells you that hijab is directly stated in the Qur'an is mistaken.
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curious2



Joined: 05 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't gone through the whole thread yet but wondering if anyone mentioned the point (it may be an old one) that the earth is round so it doesn't matter where you face, you're facing everything anyway. So I don't really see an argument here.

A flat earth would probably require a reference point. Just pick up a ball and imagine yourself on top of it. You'd see yourself as an observer of everything around you.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmitha wrote:
Shams,

I am sure there are exceptions in which JK's face Mecca for example the one in Orlando does not from my understanding only because they were so despearate to find a location, they had to pick that place. There are always exceptions and islam is very flexible faith, however the guideliens for finding JK locations are for it to face Mecca.

Secondly I agree that other faiths do not eat pork. My main point in mentioning that was that we do not eat it yet this Imam has not specifically given a farman on it. Thus it is something we derive from the Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet and of our previous Imams. Meaning that he does not have to give a directive on EVERY issue if it is already clearly stated in the sources of Islam.

Also, I do believe the Imam derives our beliefs and pracitces from the Qur'an and Sunnah. For example, he cannot come out tommorrow and say that you dont have to pray anymore, or that you can drink alcohol or eat pork b/c it would contradict what the Qur'an says. Also if you read Hadith al-Thaqalayn, the two weighty things the Prophet left the community behind with are the Qur'an and the ahl-al-bayt. These two are intertwined. Thus he does need the Qur'an and if he didn't he wouldn't encourage us to read it. In fact there are farmans where he as taken apart words from verses of the Qur'an and asked members of the Jamat what they mean.

Also, just because something existed before Islam is not relevant. I realize Hajj was there before Islam but Islam carried that practice over. As I said earlier, the early Muslims used to pray facing Jerusalem until it was revealed for them to face Mecca, it is a pracitce of unity but why should it change now?

I am not making a pure shariat argument b/c as I said earlier, the essence (batini reason) for facing Kaaba is for unitiny while the exoteric reason is purly facing it for the sake of facing it. And there are always exceptions like if you are somewhere and you dont know where the Qibla is or your center just can't face that way for some logistical reason. Our faith is not above shariat but involves a balance between exoteric and exoteric. For example that fact that we congregate to pray is exoteric but the essence and reasoning behind the prayers is essoteric. If we were purely an esocteric faith then we would have no outward expression of our faith.

The hijab argument is flawed because no where in the Qur'an does it tell women specifically to cover wear hijab. It stresses modesty and the ahadith that talk about veiling are purely contextual to that time period. Thus that practice is based on cultural norms of a specific society. Today for example, if you go to Afghanistan, or Norther pakistan, the Ismaili women there do wear hijab because that is their cultural norm for modesty. Any Muslim that tells you that hijab is directly stated in the Qur'an is mistaken.


You're making my arguement for me..
We are an esoteric faith..thus our jamatkhanas from the outside confirm to help us fit into the "muslim Ummah" yet our prayers and practices are esoteric.
Think of it this way..no matter which way the Jamat faces..The Mukhi and Kamadia..who are the physical representatives of the Imam..FACE THE OTHER WAY...if he wanted us to face the Kaaba..he would make them turn the other way..
once again..if you want to face the east go for it..it doesn't make a difference to me..

and as someone that is well aware of the directives and as intimate knowledge of the workings of Imaara..I will say this much..each and every NEW jamatkhana that is bought/converted/built for the specific purpose of a Jamat Khana is done so with the EXPLICIT APPROVAL of MOWLANA HAZAR IMAM...if HE wanted us to face east..trust me the Orlando Jamat Khana would've never been approved...
and from my perspective..we are the only true muslims..since we've followed the prophet and the Ahl Bayt to this day..all the other sects have not...

your faith may not be above shariat..mine is (to me atleast)...as i said MSMS has mentioned not eating pork in his farmans..and i know that MHI hasn't cancelled that farman....but from what i know..that hasn't stopped ismailies from eating pork...i know quite a few that do eat pork...
as Ismailies..we aren't supposed to follow the hadiths of the prophet or the sunnah...but the IMAM..
and if he were to stand up and say it is day..i will say it is day...
you want to face east..go for it..doesn't make a heap of difference to me...
and if you are going to practise facing east..do it for every prayer you do..not when it is conveient for you...as implied by your post.
I believe i have made my point a number of times now..and will probably not post on this topic anymore...since i am repeating myself and the arguements are being repeated over and over again.

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20404

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmitha wrote:
I understand, but the bottom line is that our JKs do face Mecca, it seems like people on this forum are having a hard time understanding that. It is not to build bridges with other faiths.

Given that within our Tariqah practices we do not all face the same direction, what would be the reason for our buidings to face Mecca?
fmitha wrote:

Plus, the Imam does not invent the religion, he derives from the Qur'an and the Sunnah and as such all of our practicea and beliefs are rooted in them. He is the interpretor of the faith for modern time from the Qur'an and Sunnah. There are numerous farmans where he has said to read the Qur'an and to understand what it means in esoteric and exoteric means. Plus if you have the hadith and the source/isnad of the hadith in which the prophet said we only need to follow 10% of what he said I would love to see it.

Our faith is not based upon the Quran and the Sunna. It is based upon thousands of years of history as per the following Hidayat.

"The ceremonies and customs which you will be discussing are the backbones of our Faith, and for this reason your discussions, should be guided by clear thinking, restraint and, above all, faith.....
I am sure you will never forget that our Faith is based on thousands of years of history, and that we should learn from history and not to think that our past is of no use to us now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered." (extract from letter to the President, Ismailia Association for India, 25.9.1964)

In one of his Farmans MHI says "...his (Imam's) Noor has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction." Therefore he does not turn towards the Quran in order to guide us.

In his Farmans about Quran, MHI tells us to study parts of the Quran and NOT the entire Quran.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to forget that the Imam does not follow the true path, the true path follows the Imam.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont think that Ismailis any where in the world wears thye Hijab which is forbidden in Ismailism and is sin to wear it.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
I dont think that Ismailis any where in the world wears thye Hijab which is forbidden in Ismailism and is sin to wear it.

Star i have seen some ismailis from islamic countries in canada wear hijab or hijablike garments to jamatkhana..
however that wasn't my point..
my point was to the effect that now we have ismailies that are saying we should say our dua facing the kaaba..tomorrow these ismailies will be telling us that our women should wear hijab because that is what the rest of the ummah do.....


Shams
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fmitha



Joined: 29 Aug 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shams,

As I said before your analogy is wrong. Primarily b/c hijab and facing the qibla are two different things. Hijab is nowhere mentioned in the Qur'an, all the Qur'an focuses on is modesty, while the Qibla issue is directly addressed. You cannot use something that is directly addressed and something that is no mentioned and compare the two. Plus Ismailis in Northern Pakistan for example do cover in JK b/c that is their cultural norm of modesty. That is what the Qur'an stresses as far as dress code.

The point nobody has answered is why IMAARA requries that the JK face the Qibla for the prayer hall. If the Council and IMAARA mandate it, itsn't that the answer right there?
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fmitha wrote:
Shams,

As I said before your analogy is wrong. Primarily b/c hijab and facing the qibla are two different things. Hijab is nowhere mentioned in the Qur'an, all the Qur'an focuses on is modesty, while the Qibla issue is directly addressed. You cannot use something that is directly addressed and something that is no mentioned and compare the two. Plus Ismailis in Northern Pakistan for example do cover in JK b/c that is their cultural norm of modesty. That is what the Qur'an stresses as far as dress code.

The point nobody has answered is why IMAARA requries that the JK face the Qibla for the prayer hall. If the Council and IMAARA mandate it, itsn't that the answer right there?



like i said the arguements are being repeated over and over again..
go read nagib's post...
or are you omitting doing that?
your example of the orlando Jamatkhana makes my point as well..
remember in any jamatkhana..the person leading the prayer..(the PESH IMAM) or the one reciting the dua..the one who takes the position of the PIR will always face the opposite direction..thus directions don't really matter..

like i said...you want to face east..go for it..
doesn't make a heap of a difference to me.

Shams
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re:Star i have seen some ismailis from islamic countries in canada wear hijab or hijablike garments to jamatkhana

Hijab or Hijab like garments in Jamat khana. Shame on them. I am surprised to know that as Since Imam Hassan Ali Shah there are farmans for not wearing it and I dont think that it is any difficult thing not to do.
As Once KMaherAli quoted from some one" I keep my burka because in Afghanistan you never know what will happen...we are all still afraid that the Taliban may come back one day." This is different case and that you mentioned is different. Wearing hijab in advanced country like Canada and also after being Ismaili. As Hazir Imam Said,"My Grandfather made it quite clear to the Ismaili community that women were not to wear the veil and they no longer do." It is in Memoirs of Aga Khan,"In my grandfather's and my father's time the Ismailis were far ahead of any other Muslim sect in the matter of the abolition of the strict veil, even in extremely conservative countries. I have absolutely abolished it; nowadays you will never find an Ismaili woman wearing the veil." Women who claims to be Ismaili and wears veil need to think on the words in bold. Its so saddening that many Ismailis want to follow the way of Arab Mullahs instead of the way taught by Pir Sadardin. They ignore Imam's Farman and Ginan and want to go backwards towards Shariat. To wear veil, to make face towards Kaaba and all these Shariati acts. Yesterday I came to know by a friend that there are some ismailis in Pakistan going to mosque for Friday Prayers? There is in Farman that Shariat and haqiqat are 2 different things and can never become one.
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

..I will say this much..each and every NEW jamatkhana that is bought/converted/built for the specific purpose of a Jamat Khana is done so with the EXPLICIT APPROVAL of MOWLANA HAZAR IMAM...if HE wanted us to face east..trust me the Orlando Jamat Khana would've never been approved...
Shams

You are half way there; only when there is going to be a permanent center/Jamet Khana is approved by The Imam. There are many "un-APPROVED" Jamet Khans are in US and Canada. A good example as it was given is Orlando in Florida and Northlake in Illinois to just a name a few.
I am going to mirror the following on another thread as well since it was mentioned here:
I have been to Mid-East and spoken to several Social and Human observers and these people were knowledgeable and educated in the culture, language and customs. I had the opportunity to discuss and understand the tradition behind Hujab and veil aka Burka.
If one researches well and understand it with a wider view you'll come to realize that it was used for protection and glamour. The protection was from Sun Light as a sunscreen and protection from sandstorms. In MidEast (and I have notice in Paki and Indian areas also) it is proffered that you look clean or fair or white in skin tone especially for the women. And what best way to shelter from sun! And this over time was meshed with the religion over time. The Hijabs go back to Abraham's time and before. Don't get me wrong I am not condoning nor opposing anything just explaining what I observed and what I learned.
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