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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Where is the English guidance?
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Where is the English guidance?
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Um - Quran is also clear on following Imam-e-Mubeen.


Can you post complete Aya /Ayas. Saying follow imam e Mubin, please.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1256

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a_27826 said :

Quote:
Ok thanx for correction.

so, in 020:130, did God instruct the Prophet to "tasbih/ bandagi" ?

1. twice at dawn
2. twice in the evening
3. once at night


Brother, momins are invited to say tasbih whenever they can...now about timings, well if you read 30:18, allah[swt] says

Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.

So does the mean one should say tasbih only at those times ???

If you want me to give you aayats that cover all times of the day I can do that...Please refer :

52:48/49
30:18
40:55
20:130

you say tasbih 2/20 or 2000 times brother there's no restriction.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1256

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret said :

Quote:
I had no idea tasbih and Du'a or prayer had different purpose.
Please let us know what's the purpose (moral) of Du'a vs Tasbih?



First of all, there is no competition like Dua vs Tasbih, so lets just put this childish argument for nuseri and other marifati types icon_biggrin.gif

While the purpose can be the same my dear friend, the ritual prayers also include number of other acts...you know standing, bowing etc etc

Lemme give you another example, in the same quran allah[swt] says :

24:41

Hast thou not seen that Allah, He it is Whom all who are in the heavens and the earth praise, and the birds in their flight? Of each He knoweth verily the its worship [salat] and the its praise [tasbih]; and Allah is Aware of what they do.

24:41

Seest thou not that it is Allah Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer [salat] and praise [tasbih]. And Allah knows well all that they do.

What do you make of the verse @ above ??
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:
tret said :

Quote:
I had no idea tasbih and Du'a or prayer had different purpose.
Please let us know what's the purpose (moral) of Du'a vs Tasbih?



First of all, there is no competition like Dua vs Tasbih, so lets just put this childish argument for nuseri and other marifati types icon_biggrin.gif

While the purpose can be the same my dear friend, the ritual prayers also include number of other acts...you know standing, bowing etc etc

Lemme give you another example, in the same quran allah[swt] says :

24:41

Hast thou not seen that Allah, He it is Whom all who are in the heavens and the earth praise, and the birds in their flight? Of each He knoweth verily the its worship [salat] and the its praise [tasbih]; and Allah is Aware of what they do.

24:41

Seest thou not that it is Allah Whose praises all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate, and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread? Each one knows its own (mode of) prayer [salat] and praise [tasbih]. And Allah knows well all that they do.

What do you make of the verse @ above ??



So, we DO AGREE that Du'a and Tasbih have the same purpose to praise and worship and remember Allah tahalaa. that's very good, and I am glad to hear that. It's because this was my understanding too. icon_biggrin.gif

About rituals: I do agree also that one should obey the rituals of one's tariqa, and I have never denied that, as I indicated in my previous reply to zznoor!!!

My position is that I value more to morals (batini purposes) of our rituals than their zahiri acts!! I perform my Du'a the best I can, but when I do, my intent is to remember my Mawla and Allah tahalaa at that particular time. Now remembering my Mawla and Allah tahalaa when I am performing my Du'a is wayyyy more important to me, than just performing the act of Du'a itself [Do you get what I am saying?]

This is where I was getting at, when I gave the analogy of "Be good ...". I really doubt that zznoor got this, but I am pretty sure that you know what I am talking about.


to conclude:

1) Rituals are important to follow in each religion as they are symbolic [gestures] actions that have deep and esoteric meaning [which is more valuable], and one must follow and obey it, like our holly Du'a, Namaz, etc..etc...

2) Rituals have their esoteric purposes, which in my opinion are more important to understand and follow. Like purpose of Du'a and Tasbih being the same [NO COMPETITION WHAT SO EVER].
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:

Brother, momins are invited to say tasbih whenever they can...now about timings, well if you read 30:18, allah[swt] says

Unto Him be praise in the heavens and the earth! - and at the sun's decline and in the noonday.

So does the mean one should say tasbih only at those times ???

If you want me to give you aayats that cover all times of the day I can do that...Please refer :

52:48/49
30:18
40:55
20:130

you say tasbih 2/20 or 2000 times brother there's no restriction.


No, thank you.

At this time, i am interested only in 020:130, which i am having problem understanding it.

Thanx for your replies.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
I just read the translated version by Yusuf ali copy that I posses of Quran.
Every Ayat is as complicated and at times foxy to interpret it and Ayat 20:130 could be one of them,everyone having a go at it for its convenience.
Every has mostly in parts have made a fair assessment. of it

Point of rationality from this Ayat to move further.

1.the word prayer is not used but praise n glory to God is used.
2. No timing is said but almost look like day in and day out ans also night in night out.(physically not possible .only possible by zirk/Ibaadat ot preaching sermons or writing poem on HIM etc and beside that also physical prayer time.
3. Salat word in not used mean it is not ordering 24 hours visible physical prayers.
4.It is natural that a entity of prophet live in toughts and praise of Allah
all the times as indicated on face of the Ayat.
4 .Prayer is a physical posturing of praise n glory+ seeking forgivenees+ seeking material n spiritual favour n need of oneself for Ali+lah=Allah.

IT IS IN NOT WAY A 24X7 ORDER FOR PERFORMING PRAYER LIKE A ROBOT.
it is useless to derive figure where none of it mentioned
2+1+2 or 5+5+5.( earth is not a circus of salads opp salat).

( from where did zznoor n 2782 manged the numbers).

Ibadat not a physical posturing is possible by a human being of such
lengthy period.
I am in view as said by Shiraz, tret n ShamsB that ibadaat (tasbih in hand is also not needed and one has develop one's thought to exist in Ali+lah=Allah all the time n not particular time n break rigidly.

I have said earlier many times that Shariat is near zero percentage of haqiqat.
Even they regimen tally follow that even with hollow Zahiri understanding.few Ayats of 5 pillars and disregard and get amused
by the same word of Allah in thousand other Ayats of importance n substance such as Ayat 20:130 and 1000 others.
( remember pillars can come crashing down in earth quakes not a rock soild mountain)

To smart search Scholars :Ya Ali madad.
please ,if possible let me know the final years before death of popular manipulator translators who are quoted on the site.
I know you all can do it.when will PhD come handy?

There is an Ayat In support to validate my curiosity and for that good research by All you intellects is needed.

Yaar kabhi to hamari madad karo.

WE WILL SCREW UP THEIR HAPPINESS OF ALL HOLLOW N INCORRECT FOLLOWERS OF ALI+LAH=ALLAH
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To smart search scholars
please ,if possible let me know the final years before death of popular manipulator translators who are quoted on the site.


Brothers
This guy is long dead and he left his lifetime of work for all of us to read.
Ask your MHI what is ancestor said about "speaking of ill about dead people"

Brother N, you are a person of gutter mentality, that's all I have to say about.

BTW you should search about trials and travails of personal life of people you worships. What have they gone thru for last 10 years.

Somebody wisely said
When you point a finger at somebody -------
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chew on this

So glad tidings to one who takes himself to account before he is taken to account!

Allah Most High has said, 'O' you who believe! Observe your duty to Allah. And let every soul look to that which it sends on before for the morrow. And observe your duty to Allah! Lo! Allah is Informed of what you do. And be not you as those who forgot Allah, therefore He caused them to forget their souls. Such are the wrongdoers. (Qur'an, 59: 1icon_cool.gif.

Take out your Usuf Ali's translation and read it
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zznoor wrote:
Quote:
And it also seems that you're avoiding answering my question about the 5 pillars being mentioned in the Quran - being referred to as the 5 Pillars by Allah because I think in your google searches - and asking on the other websites - you've found that THERE IS NO REFERENCE OR MENTION BY ALLAH OF THESE 5 PILLARS...


Brother Quran is not simple book of instruction saying here are 5 founding principal of Islam.

It is there since prophet said in this Hadith

Quote:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 001, Book 002, Hadith Number 007.
Sahih Bukhari Book 02. Belief

Bismillah-Hir-Rahman-Nir-Raheem

Narated By Ibn 'Umar : Allah's Apostle said: Islam is based on (the following) five (principles):

1. To testify that none has the right to be worshiped but Allah (Quran 2:163) and
Muhammad is Allah's Apostle.(Quran 48:29)
2. To offer the (compulsory congregational) prayers dutifully and perfectly. (Quran 6:71-72, 20:14 and many more)
3. To pay Zakat. (i.e. obligatory charity) (Quran 35:29-30, 9:60 and many more)
4. To perform Hajj. (i.e. Pilgrimage to Mecca) (Quran 3:97)
5. To observe fast during the month of Ramadan. (Quran 2:183-185)


I have copied this from ahadith.co.uk/chapter.php?cid=2
I have added Quran Sura:Aya numbers

Now I want you to show me which Aya refers to Waliya/Imamat


But admit that there is no mention of the 5 pillars in the Quran.

Also you've added the Ayats as per your understanding - keep in mind - there is no mention of the NUMBER of times one has to PRAY - or the direction that ONE HAS TO FACE - you've added the Ayats that you felt made your hollow argument.
Also keep in mind - that the word used in the Quran for obligatory prayer is SALAH.
Also Du'a is very specifically mentioned in the Quran as well.

Now there is no mention of the times of the prayers - or of the number of prayers...or the direction in what the Prophet said...

Which means - he left it open to individual interpretation...right?

You've lost this one zznoor - chappal must be smarting no?

Also - the Same PROPHET that you keep quoting - declared ALI as the Imam at Ghadir -e - Khumm and has stated - as documented by the Same UMAR you quote here - and mentioned in Tabari, Muslim etc..so you can't deny that event either..

He (the prophet stated) there are 2 things i leave behind - the Quran and my Ahle Bayt ....(i'll not finish the sentence ..but i think you know what i am talking about...)

So you've proven to us that you don't follow the quran - rather other peoples interpretations of it - that fit your needs - and more or less - you follow the Sira of the Prophet - which was written 200 years after his death - so authenticity is suspect...
and what you claim to follow from the Quran - we've soundly proved that you don't follow...not intentionally - but rather unintentionally - from lack of knowledge and conviction...

like i said before - stop copy pasting and learn - and own the material...if you're really passionate about it...

and you obviously don't follow the Ahle Bayt - i.e. the Imam...

So - how are you a Muslim then?..and you have the audacity to challenge us?

We've proved time and time again - we follow the Prophet - i.e. his instruction to follow the Imam - and our faith is based on conviction - not brainwashing...

In the memoirs - Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah said - "our faith is one of conviction - not one of convenience..you can either accept it and remain within it and follow or leave - you can't reform the faith"...

Whatever practice we have - whatever we follow is ordained by the Imam of our Time - the Imam-e-Mubeen...
Now you can choose not to accept that - and that's cool - and call us kafiroon - and leave us be...
or you can accept us as a different - but having equal rights to practice our faith...

You are more than welcome to do what you deem fit to practice your faith.

see the difference between your interpretation of Islam and practice and ours...

Do you see us coming to a Sunni board and trying to establish false intellectual supremacy?

Shams
Shams
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just want to clarify for everyone's sake, that Ismailies have 7 pillars, which are as follow: Please zznoor, accept that we have different interpretation of these pillars, which maybe not according to your belief.

1. Wallayah
2. Taharah
3. Salat
4. Zakah
5. Sawm
6. Hajj
7. Jihad

See wikipedia for details here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_pillars_of_Ismailism[/url]
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A beautiful explanation of the pillars here.


ismailignosis.com/2012/09/30/the-seven-pillars-of-islam-the-esoterics-of-walayah/
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
Just want to clarify for everyone's sake, that Ismailies have 7 pillars, which are as follow: Please zznoor, accept that we have different interpretation of these pillars, which maybe not according to your belief.

1. Wallayah
2. Taharah
3. Salat
4. Zakah
5. Sawm
6. Hajj
7. Jihad

See wikipedia for details here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_pillars_of_Ismailism[/url]


These are also broadly accepted by most other Shia sects.

Shams
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