www.ismaili.net

zznoor wrote:Brother ShamsB
ASAK

I remember one of Shams stated that they believe in Famans of MHI and if he says that dance in JK to some tune, he will do it.
Allah has asked Muslims to face Kaaba and Prophet obeyed. And we also obey.
Other reason is Unity.
Now just think if in Dua sesson jamaati facing different direction instead of leaders. What happens?
I am surprised you are having difficult time understanding such simple thing.
No wonder you do not have faith in Quran, word of Allah and his prophet.
I am not trying to convert anybody and participate when needed.nthere are many threads where I did not post.
Please Keep your penis where it belongs.
Salaam

Seems like you want your cake and want to eat it too....

you claim to follow the Quran and Allah - yet are so selective.
Convenience over conviction
I tell you - i so enjoy taking your chappals and beating you on the head with it...and it's all logic and intellect...you love putting your foot in your mouth - this is why your copy/paste technique fails you because you don't understand or "own" the material - you aren't processing this and internalizing it - but rather to prove to yourself that you know it..it's an ego search and a validation..
oh and by the way - I wasn't suggesting putting my penis anywhere - all i said was Penis Envy - it's more of a sense of you trying to convince us that you are right when you know you are wrong and prove to us that we are wrong - when we're right - a sign of insecurity - GOOGLE IT..since you are so well versed at googling everything else.
So here goes
The same Allah who said Face Mecca - said - Wa Kulla Shain Asaina Hufi Imam-e-Mubeen -
And we have vested the knowledge of authority in the Manifest Imam.
This is in the Quran

Not Ghayabi Imam - or invisible imam -but MANIFEST -
Not the imams in the corner mosque - but MANIFEST IMAM
and the Prophet declared this Imam at Ghadir-e-Khumm;
now want me to school you again on this? or you can use the search function?

That MANIFEST IMAM - THAT ALI - iS SHAH KARIM EL HUSAYNI

So - i will follow that Imam and what He COMMANDS me to do; not the corner mullah -

Btw what happens if you go to another mosque and they give you contradicting information?

For example - the wahabists will tell you to come in full dress - only a covered slit at the eyes and the more liberal will say a head covering..hm..wonder how you'll react then...will you whip out what you've been brainwashed with?

Atleast in my Tariqah - only THE IMAM calls the shots - we are not left to the vagaries of the decisions...one CENTRAL AUTHORITY...
FYI - the 4 Sunni Schools of Jurisprudence - all studied under either Imam Muhammadinil Baqr or Jafar as Sadiq - oh did I mention - they were both Shia Imams?

That is called a schooling - want more?

Shams

zznoor wrote:

let's take
prayer for instance. According to you[orthodox muslim],
one must face qibla,
It's in Quran
perform 5 times
It's in Quran
[at exact time]
I believe it is Hadith
salat in specific order
As taught to prophet by Gibreal
and even specific ayats,
Beside Sura Ikhalass one can recite any Sura from Quran
where as according to us, it's Dua [which we still recite ayats of the Qur'an, like Surah Ikhlas, and others],
Not in Quran and not 5 times
but the moral of Dua and/or Pray must be to remember the almighty Allah, which is what we do when we submit our Dua.

5 prayers is never mentioned explicitly in the Quran

Show me the 5 prayers called out - you can't

"Establish prayers at both ends of the day and into the far reaches of the night."

Let me school you a little bit more on Islam and Sunni Islam (this is where a PhD in the subject comes in handy - oh did I mention that I also have spent time at Al Azhar)...

The notion of the 5x prayer - IS NOT FROM THE QURAN but from THE SIRA OF THE PROPHET and is part of what supposedly happened during Meraj when the Prophet comes across Musa...

So 5x Prayer is not a Quranic Injunction - why don't you actually go ask a SCHOLAR about this?

For those of you that many not be aware of this - Sunni interpretation of the quran and islam is based on of factors (Quran, Hadith, etc).
The Sira - or BIOGRAPHY of the Prophet is one of these factors
The original was written by Ibn Ishaq who was born in 704 AD and died in 766 or 767 AD - so never met the Prophet - but rather collected oral traditions and comprised the biography based upon that.
This compilation or original biography didn't survive past his death.
What we have today - is a copy or an edition of the original that was copied by Al Tabari and Ibn Hisham both of whom died by 840 AD. However none of these people had met the Prophet - or any of the Asahaba but rather just oral traditions that had carried over.

zznoor - you didn't anticipate this did you?

Also - this is not Shia or Ismaili garbage - but Academic and Historical fact - accepted by Sunnis and Shias worldwide

now your corner Mullah may not accept this - but he also might not accept that al azhar has tombs of 2 ismaili imams within - because he hasn't been there and he doesn't know....those websites are people like you just regurgitating and spewing nonsense without owning or internalizing this.

How does that chappal feel?

Shams

shams, nice piece of information.

thank you.

It's true there is no injunction in Quran to pray 5 times obligatory prayers, but the Prophet did order to pray 5 times to his followers.

Now zznoor is the follower of the Prophet and is praying 5 obligatory prayers as ordered by the Prophet.

remember the injunction " Obey God and obey His Messenger and Those who hold authority amongst you"

so what's wrong is he doing ?

It's true there is no injunction in Quran to pray 5 times obligatory prayers, but the Prophet did order to pray 5 times to his followers.

It is not one aayah, but several aayahs that when read in combination gives guidance of the prayer timings. What we, as believers, need to determine is how did the Prophet of Allah (saws) understand and implement these commandments in his life and the lives of the believers. There is absolutely no doubt and the Ummah of Islam is unanimous that the Prophet (saws) led the congregation of the believers at the five different appointed prayer times of the day.

Many years after the death of the Prophet (saws), some unscrupulous people and leaders, just to break away from mainstream Islam and create divisions and differences in the Ummah, started to combine the prayers from five to three, and pray three on a regular basis. Even if you ask the people who combine and pray three times a day, they will confirm that at the time of the Messenger of Allah (saws), there were five prayers prayed in the Mosque at five different times!

The Quranic aayats regarding the timing of prayers are as follows:

Chapter 11, Surah Hud ayaat 114: Establish the Salat at the two ends of the day and in the early part of the night. (implies Fajr, Magrib and Isha)

Chapter 2, Surah Baqarah ayaat 238:Take great care of your Prayers, especially of the middle Prayer and stand before Allah like devoted servants. (implies Asr)

Chapter 17 Bani Israel ayaat 78:Establish the Salat from the declining of the sun to the darkness of the night and be particular about the recital of the Quran at dawn for the recital of the Quran at dawn is witnessed. (implies Asr, Magrib and Fajr)

Chapter 30 Surah Rum ayat 17:So, glorify Allah in the evening and in the morning; praise is due to Him alone in the heavens and the earth: and (glorify Him) in the afternoon and at the declining of the day. (implies Fajr, Magrib, Dhuhr and Asr)

Chapter 50 Surah Qaf ayat 39:Therefore, O Prophet (saws), bear with patience whatever they say, and keep up glorifying your Lord with his praise, before sunrise and before sunset. And glorify Him again in the night and also when are free from prostrations. (implies Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr, Isha and Tahajjud)

The prayer timings in the Quran are implied and thus if the above ayaats are read together, they clearly point towards the 5 obligatory fard prayers.

5 prayers
(1) The Dawn Prayer is mentioned by name in 24:58. Before sunrise.
(2) The Noon Prayer is specified in 17:78. When the sun declines.
(3) The Afternoon Prayer is in 2:238. Midway between noon and sunset.
(4) The Sunset Prayer is mentioned in 11:114. Immediately after sunset.
(5) The Night Prayer is in 11:114, and is mentioned by name in 24:58.

those who do not completely believe in Quran and Prophet and have taken Tahgut as their guides will keep questioning. May Allah have mercy on them.

Ya seen verse 12
Word by word translation

إِنَّا
Indeed, We
نَحْنُ
We
نُحْىِ
[We] give life
ٱلْمَوْتَىٰ
(to) the dead
وَنَكْتُبُ
and We record
مَا
what
قَدَّمُواْ
they have sent before
وَءَاثَـٰرَهُمْۚ
and their footprints,
وَكُلَّ
and every
شَىْءٍ
thing
أَحْصَيْنَـٰهُ
We have enumerated it
فِىٓ
in
إِمَامٍ
a Register
مُّبِينٍ
clear.
﴿١٢﴾

Inna nahnu nuhyee almawta wanaktubu ma qaddamoo waatharahum wakulla shayin ahsaynahu fee imamin mubeenin



Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah:gives life to the dead] [Record:all things are recorded in] [Record:of deeds] [Resurrection of the dead]

[36:12 (Asad)] Verily, We shall indeed bring the dead back to life; and We shall record whatever [deeds] they have sent ahead, and the traces [of good and evil] which they have left behind: for of all things do We take account in a [color=Red]record clear.[/color]

[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything [color=Red] in a clear writing.[/color]

[Pickthal 36:12] Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them, and their footprints. And all things We have kept in a [color=Red]clear Register.[/color]

[Yusufali 36:12] Verily We shall give life(3954) to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave(3955) behind, and of all things have We taken account in a clear Book(3956) (of evidence).[/color]

Verily We shall give life(3954) to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave(3955) behind, and of all things have We taken account in a [color=Red]clear Book(3956) (of evidence).[/color]

Comments
3954 All this is possible, because there is the assurance of a Hereafter, in which Allah will be all-in-all, and evil will no longer bestride the world, as the term of its respite will have expired (Cf. 6:36 and 30:19).
3955 Our deeds, good and bad, go to Allah's Judgement Seat before us. They will of course be brought to our account; but our account will also be swelled by the example we left behind us and the consequences of our deeds, that will come into play or continue to operate after our earthly life had ceased. Our moral and spiritual responsibility is therefore much wider than as affects our own person.

[Hilali-Khan] Verily, We give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before (them), and their [color=Red] traces, [/color]

(their footsteps and walking on the earth with their legs to the mosques for the five compulsory congregational prayers, Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) and all other good and evil they did, and that which they leave behind)

[Maudidi 36:12] We shall surely raise the dead to life and We record what they did and the traces of their deeds that they have left behind. *9 We have encompassed that in a [color=Red]Clear Book. [/color]

Comment*9
This shows that three kinds of the entries are made in the conduct-book of men. First, whatever a person does, good or bad is entered in the Divine Register. Second, whatever impressions a man makes on the objects of his environment and on the limbs of his own body itself, become recorded, and all these impressions will at one time become so conspicuous that man's own voice will become audible and the whole history of his ideas and intentions and aims and objects and the pictures of all of his good and bad acts and deeds will appear before him. Third, whatever influences he has left behind of his good and bad actions on his future generation, on his society and on mankind as a whole, will go on being recorded in his account as far as they reach and as long as they remain active and operative. The full record of the good and bad training given by him to his children, the Bard or evil that he has spread in the society, and its impact on mankind as a whole, will go on being maintained till the time that it goes on producing good or evil results in the world.

[color=red]I have given here word by word translation and translation + comment by various scholars. None has translated Imam Mubin as Manifastation Imam. This is what happens when you are given only half Aya
[/color]

those who do not completely believe in Quran and Prophet and have taken Tahgut as their guides will keep questioning. May Allah have mercy on them.

Once again a childish argument.

The only 3 salaats mentioned in holy quran by name are

Salaat Al Fajr [Morning]
Salaat Al Wutsa [Middle]
Salaat Al Esha [Night]

Stop fooling people

Once again a childish argument.

On whose part

noor said :

On whose part

Noor, you are going nowhere with this...

1] Black stone and its importance is next to nothing in Islam but yet you see people kiss it, say prayers and what not.

2] The number of salaats mentioned are 3 [with their names] in holy quran...If you wanna recite prayers 5-15 or 50 its completely your choice.

3] Imam al mubin, 1] Imam = Guide, Teacher etc etc....2] Al Mubin = The Manifest ...So how can a guide become a clear register ???

So on whose part you said ??? Well you decide

Check it out
Imam = road
15:79
Imam = book
46:13
11:17
36:12
17:171-172
Evil leaders
9:12
28:41
Israelite
32:23-25
28:4-5
Leaders of pious
2:124
21:72-73
25:71-74

When people translate Imam-e Mubin (36:12) by clear register, book, anything but Imam - their lack of understanding or their bad faith is so apparent that no answer is needed!

The black stone remained there because the converted Arabs of that time were idol worshipers and to get rid completely of all the idols would have been a suicide - so to please them at that time he made it a symbol of unity but now that most of the Muslims may have evolved and be capable to get rid of all idolatry, the last remain of it should also go and only Allah should be revered.

A similar story is with Aaron who was accused of letting people make their golden calf. When Prophet Moosa (Moses) came down from the mountain, he was fast to accuse Aaron but Aaron told Moosa that all the people would have scattered if he would not let them make the golden calf so he chose to keep them united at that place and indulge in their idol worshiping hoping for better times ahead.

Admin wrote: The black stone remained there because the converted Arabs of that time were idol worshipers and to get rid completely of all the idols would have been a suicide - so to please them at that time he made it a symbol of unity but now that most of the Muslims may have evolved and be capable to get rid of all idolatry, the last remain of it should also go and only Allah should be revered.

A similar story is with Aaron who was accused of letting people make their golden calf. When Prophet Moosa (Moses) came down from the mountain, he was fast to accuse Aaron but Aaron told Moosa that all the people would have scattered if he would not let them make the golden calf so he chose to keep them united at that place and indulge in their idol worshiping hoping for better times ahead.

Now that's a fine observation. That would be one of the methodologies used during the da'waa by the greate (INTELLEGENT) Prophets to try to convert many to sirat-ul-mustaqim. Same methodology was used during our many Imams/Dais/Pirs in the past to do the da'waa. Just something to ponder...

Admin wrote:When people translate Imam-e Mubin (36:12) by clear register, book, anything but Imam - their lack of understanding or their bad faith is so apparent that no answer is needed!

Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works

Arthur John Arberry
Surely it is We who bring the dead to life and write down what they have forwarded and what they have left behind; everything We have numbered in a clear register.

Edward Henry Palmer
Verily, we quicken the dead, and write down what they have done before, and what vestiges they leave behind; and everything have we counted in a plain model.

George Sale
Verily We will restore the dead to life, and will write down their works which they shall have sent before them, and their footsteps wIhich they shall have left behind them; and every thing do We set down in a plain register.

John Medows Rodwell
Verily, it is We who will quicken the dead, and write down the works which they have sent on before them, and the traces which they shall have left behind them: and everything have we set down in the clear Book of our decrees.

N J Dawood (draft)
It is We who will resurrect the dead. We record the deeds of men and the marks they leave behind: We note all things in a glorious book.

tret
Now that's a fine observation. That would be one of the methodologies used during the da'waa by the greate (INTELLEGENT) Prophets to try to convert many to sirat-ul-mustaqim. Same methodology was used during our many Imams/Dais/Pirs in the past to do the da'waa. Just something to ponder...

Nice comeback. Something to ponder by Admin.

Now if Prophet insunated that so called black stone was holy then what was he? A Charleston? Something to ponder.

And ponder 2:208

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo odkhuloo fee alssilmi kaffatan wala tattabiAAoo khutuwati alshshaytani innahu lakum AAaduwwun mubeenun

Maudidi(2:208)
O Believers, enter completely into Islam *226 and do not follow in" the footsteps of Satan, for he is your avowed enemy.

Comment
*226. God demands that man should submit, without reservation, the whole of his being to His will. Man's outlook, intellectual pursuits, behaviour, interaction with other people and modes of endeavour should all be completely subordinate to Islam. God does not accept the splitting up of human life into separate compartments, some governed by the teachings of Islam and others exempt.

BTW Mustali Ismaili Muslim (Bohra) are not permitted to read translation so clergy can mess with their heads.
Their Dai claims only he has correct interpretation of Quran

just like to give you guys little twist and little laugh in your current debate, knowing that sister ZZNoor will not believe or accept our arguments! she never did before even she was proved wrong many times in past! her motto and aims are different and I know it ; she is coming here not to learn but to do propaganda against Islamism and Imam. period.

I can not stop laughing after recalling this story of two Molwis:- so let me share with you guys for your laugh of the day:-

Once a religious debate scheduled between two Molwis, who defeats who? in religious knowledge. Before the debate start one Molwi Mr. X ( just like ZZNoor) proclaimed that he will win 101% this debate!!!

His disciples asked him, how you can say that you will be the winner of this debate?, when your competitors Mr. Z has vast knowledge in religious and other subject?? lot more knowledge then you!! Mr. X replied that very simple way. I will not agree on his any arguments , even I will know that I am wrong and Mr. Z is right!! but I will not agree on his any talk! this way I will win this debate!!!!??? Guys the same method and approch our sister ZZNoor has adopted

Now back to the twist:-

Which stone Muslims and Kuresh were kissing when Karamatian tribe once attacked in Ka'baa and they carried away Hajar Ashwad (the black stone) in 317/929?, which was returned after 22-23 years later, was their any another stone in absence of Black stone to kiss?[/quote]

Which stone Muslims and Kuresh were kissing when Karamatian tribe once attacked in Ka'baa and they carried away Hajar Ashwad (the black stone) in 317/929?, which was returned after 22-23 years later, was their any another stone in absence of Black stone to kiss?

Your posts shows disrespect of traditional Islam, it's Prophet, it's Book, the scholars of Islam you think one is better then other guys Juti and crude talk about human part.

Yes we have ignorant people who kiss stone and worship graves just like you have people who think Ali-MHI is Allah. Ali Is Allah's one of 99 names and are still living in their Hindu culture.etc etc.

True guides job is to bring them to true Islam, which he claims only he knows.

BTW I do not have film of Hajj during those 22-23 years. Please educate us with authentic report what Muslims did without stone. Karamatian tribe must have spies in Mecca and must have filmed Muslims kissing substitute stone.

Please put it on U Tube.


Salaam brother

Ya Ali Madad:
Shariat is like digging into dead's of the past era.
Tariqat is following THE living.

Members have the choice whether to dig into the rotten stink of Shariat and /or to move on n forward with our glorious Ismaili Doctrines n history.
A person existing in stink awaiting her death it is her wish.So be it.

The stink of Shariat is observed in reality on their grim n unlighted faces.In near future face Hell like heat over 52 degrees Celsius in their regions as an advance taste of Hell in very near future for them.Virus can be accelerator.

To a_27826:Ya Ali Madad.

Was roasting of skin or akin to it mentioned in Quran somewhere?

a_27826 wrote:shams, nice piece of information.

thank you.

It's true there is no injunction in Quran to pray 5 times obligatory prayers, but the Prophet did order to pray 5 times to his followers.

Now zznoor is the follower of the Prophet and is praying 5 obligatory prayers as ordered by the Prophet.

remember the injunction " Obey God and obey His Messenger and Those who hold authority amongst you"

so what's wrong is he doing ?

So let me ask you this - who do we follow when the Quran and the Prophet are in contradiction? In this case (though zznoor will never agree) the Quran says 3x prayer - VERY CLEARLY - no matter how ZZNOOR TRIES TO SPIN IT....and we don't have the PROPHET saying 5x prayer - but the Sira of the Prophet - which is not a religious document - but a historical one...and a third hand account at that...

So what is Islam based on? a biography? or the Quran - the Word of Allah...
Keep in mind that the Physical Mohammed was a man - who came - lived - and died...and if you read the Quran - is chided by Allah in a number of places...
(btw - this is not just me saying it but core Sunni belief - there is no divinity attached to a human in Islam - Mohammed the individual wasn't important - the Message was and that was the faith)

I don't see any injunctions in the Quran to follow the Sira.

Okay - let's tackle this another way - How about the 5 pillars that we're supposed to follow from within the QURAN?

All within one verse - not spread out.

I can point to one verse which talks concisely about 3 prayers.

The way ZZNOOR tries to establish the 5x prayer - is from various verses that talk about prayers - but the one i quote talks about 3 prayers and that is what is repeated all across the quran.

The other solution i can see is that we count all the different times prayer is mentioned in the Quran and that is the amount of times we are allotted to pray.

I have no issue with how many times zznoor prays or doesn't pray - or what direction she faces - or whether she does it with clothes on - or no clothes on - or faces east or west or stands on her head whilst doing it...
That is between her and God.
My issue is that whilst my version of Islam allows her to practice the way she wants to - yet her version - there is no tolerance or acceptance for my way of belief or practice.
I am not forcing her to follow me - she didn't like Ismailism - she left - we didn't chase her down...
keep in mind - this is ismaili.net not ex ismaili.net..she comes here and copy pastes from other sites.

What i am trying to get zznoor to realize - is that she needs to understand and internalize the faith that she's chosen - not copy paste - actually learn about the history of that faith and not make blanket statements...
She is coming here because it's a case of sour grapes and insecurities..she wants to make sure the decision she made to leave the faith and convert was the right one - and since she can't get convinced on the other sites - she comes to this one, the problem is - our faith is one of intellect - is one of logic..and is based on history and facts..not conjecture...
I have a number of ex Sunnis - Hard core ex Sunnis - who have converted to Ismailism - one from Saudi Arabia and one from Karachi - who are Hafiz of the Quran and they didn't convert because we ran after them - but rather they say - they studied the Quran and the only sect that follows the Quran and the Islam of the Quran are the Ismailies...
What ZZNOOR though she'd find are sheep and cows ill educated in Islamic and Arabic History - problem is - none of us are sheep - with the conviction in our faith -whether right or wrong - we are lions - and willing to go to hell for our conviction - she who couldn't maintain her baiyat to the Imam - is now trying so hard to convince herself that she has made the right choice that it's causing her to look like a fool repeatedly.

Every argument I've put forth - you can go back and check - is based on logic and fact after all this is a faith of intellect and i use my intellect to make the point for my faith and what I believe - i am not asking zznoor to believe what i believe in..
to me zznoor comes of as a hypocrite - holding the Quran in one hand - and yet not following the basic tenets of the Quran - where the Quran in numerous occasion states that one shouldn't judge others - for it is only ALLAH who can judge, faith is ultimately from Allah and Allah is the wisest judge.
Somehow zznoor has deemed it in her head that she is the judge and executioner and replaced Allah.

Your talk about zznoor following the Prophet - the same Prophet at Ghadir e Khumm declared Ali as the Imam - the event of Ghadir-e-Khumm is accepted by Sunni and Shia Scholars alike. - isn't she bound to follow this as well?

btw- i am following the same prophet in that i am following the Imam.

Her translation of Imam-e-Mubeen - in one of her recent posts is Road...which clearly shows her lack of knowledge of Arabic - specifically Qurayshi Arabic; which is the dialect that the compilers decided the Quran should be in - as that was the dialect the Prophet spoke, so everything else was translated to that dialect - however Imam in arabic is a PRONOUN; referring to an individual - it means ONE WHO LEADS - ask any normal Sunni and they will say the same thing.
The word imam in the sunni context is used for someone who leads the prayer..now is she telling us that that individual is not imam but ROAD?

Imam is arabic both in Shia and Sunni right? should mean the same thing?

ZZNOOR came here to tell herself and us how smart she was to find the right way and see if she could establish her "intellectual supremacy" and show her handlers that she can get more of us...

What she failed to realize that we as whole are not ismailies for the love of heaven or the fear of hell..
if my conviction in ALI leads me to hell - than better take me there today than wait for my death...
and if by saying Ali is Allah i commit shirk in someone elses eyes - than please start keeping track - because i will not shy away from my truth.

That doesn't have to be zznoor's truth; because her understanding is different...but..i think time and time again- i've taken her chappals (her arguments) and beaten her on the head with it...and she's put her foot in her mouth.

and I find it mildly entertaining

My philosophy -
In the Quran
To you yours - to me mine.
And we'll let Allah be the Judge..and if it turns out that Ali is the Judge - I know he'll accept ZZNOOR without any qualms...though I don't know if ZZNOOR's version of Allah will be that forgiving - though He does say that in the Quran.
Ya Ali Madad.
Shams

Allah's Mercy superceed's his Justice.

Admin wrote:When people translate Imam-e Mubin (36:12) by clear register, book, anything but Imam - their lack of understanding or their bad faith is so apparent that no answer is needed!

Try to insert imam-e-Mubin in any of dozen and half translation and se what mangled sentence you get.

In fact I will do it for one

George Sale 36:12
Verily We will restore the dead to life, and will write down their works which they shall have sent before them, and their footsteps which they shall have left behind them; and every thing do We set down in a manifest Imam

So this Aya says Allah write down their work(deed) and everything they do.
Where do you write down?
In imam-e-Mubin?
Is he a note book? Or a tape recorder?
How does MHI record 15 million deeds and will relate to Allah on day of judgement?
This are matter of belief.
Mainstream Islam does not believe that there is angle figure living on earth.
You become angle like by your good deeds. MHI is doing it and deserves full credit.

Correction

How does MHI record 15 million deeds and will relate to Allah on day of judgement?
Should read

How does MHI record deeds of 15 million Ismailis and will relate to Allah on the day of judgement?

zznoor wrote:Correction

How does MHI record 15 million deeds and will relate to Allah on day of judgement?
Should read

How does MHI record deeds of 15 million Ismailis and will relate to Allah on the day of judgement?

How does Allah do it?

Point being - if Hazar Imam is Allah - then why worry?

Also - the KNOWLEDGE AND AUTHORITY IS VESTED IN THE MANIFEST IMAM.

I didn't know the Quran referred to itself in a vague way.

The problem zznoor is that you think you know what Allah is talking about - Allah is very clear in the Quran - on what he wants us to do and not do

He says things to us in a SINGLE VERSE - not in 20 verses spread out over 20 Chapters

you still haven't shown me the 5 pillars that we're supposed to follow in outlined in ONE VERSE anywhere in the QURAN

Neither have you SHOWN ME 5 PRAYERS IN ONE VERSE IN THE QURAN.

FYI - the PILLAR RELATING TO SALAH - JUST REFERS TO PRAYER - (Siratul Rasullilah again) - not the number of times one has to pray.

The problem is - you're looking at just the physical body of the Imam - when we're not.

You limit Allah and his capabilities and think that He didn't anticipate all of this

Allah is omnipotent - He isn't bound by Time - if He wanted us to Pray 5x a day - he'd have said in one verse - ESTABLISH 5 PRAYERS A DAY.

IF HE WANTED TO SAY KITABUM MUBEEN - He'd have said KITABUM MUBEEN

The word IMAM in ANY DIALECT OF ARABIC or EVEN FARSI - refers to A MAN - not even a WOMAN - but A MAN - that is why traditionally WOMEN cannot lead PRAYERS - because the word is masculine

Maybe zznoor created her own language; in order to understand what the verse is saying - you need to retranslate the whole VERSE....not just replace the word.

zznoor -here's the other problem you've run into - we have people with indepth knowledge of Arabic...
not just people that have memorized the Quran and can replace a word here on there.

maybe we need to give you a lesson on the History of the Quran.

Shams

To zznoor:Ya Ali madad.

It is said in Quran that there are two angels with each soul as a guardian
and one of them is a recording agent.
There a a whole gamut of spiritual management of the universe not just for xxx million souls.All under ALI+Lah+Allah.a million year recording is seen in each thumbprint.( search for Naadi Shastra in Google)l

I presume you have been taking the meaning of the word from a shithead
translator, who thinks Imam mean road.
are there street or road in cities of Arab country where a street or lacation end with the word 'road'?
i.e is khalil road is called Khalil Imam or Jehangir road is called jehangir imam.

ShamsB
The problem zznoor is that you think you know what Allah is talking about - Allah is very clear in the Quran - on what he wants us to do and not do

He says things to us in a SINGLE VERSE - not in 20 verses spread out over 20 Chapters

You are arbitrarily setting conditions because your lack of faith in commands of Salat, Sunnah of Prophet, Imam Ali, Imams who followed them as per various Shia Tariqas.

Let me remind you Farman of SMS that Quran was corrupted by Uthman .
And you firmly believe that Quran is corrupted and not reliable book as per Ismaili faith.

I will give you one Aya and am sure you will reject it. Here it is;

verse 20:(130) George Sale
Wherefore do thou, O Mohammed, patiently bear that which they say; and celebrate the praise of thy Lord before the rising of the sun (Fajr) , and before the setting thereof (Asr) , and praise him in the hours of the night (Tahajood) , and in the extremities(Sun rise, decline of sun after high noon and Sunset. That is (Dohr) a) of the day, that thou mayest be well pleased with the prospect of receiving favor from God.

The times of Salat have been prescribed: (1) Fajr Prayer before sunrise, (2) `Asr Prayer before sunset, (3) `Isha and Tahajjud Prayers during the hours of night. Morning and Afternoon (Dhuhr) and Evening (Maghrib) Prayers " at the extremes of the day."

Reflect on it.

Brother a_27826
Any comment on 20:130?

zznoor wrote:

ShamsB
The problem zznoor is that you think you know what Allah is talking about - Allah is very clear in the Quran - on what he wants us to do and not do

He says things to us in a SINGLE VERSE - not in 20 verses spread out over 20 Chapters

You are arbitrarily setting conditions because your lack of faith in commands of Salat, Sunnah of Prophet, Imam Ali, Imams who followed them as per various Shia Tariqas.

Let me remind you Farman of SMS that Quran was corrupted by Uthman .
And you firmly believe that Quran is corrupted and not reliable book as per Ismaili faith.

I will give you one Aya and am sure you will reject it. Here it is;

verse 20:(130) George Sale
Wherefore do thou, O Mohammed, patiently bear that which they say; and celebrate the praise of thy Lord before the rising of the sun (Fajr) , and before the setting thereof (Asr) , and praise him in the hours of the night (Tahajood) , and in the extremities(Sun rise, decline of sun after high noon and Sunset. That is (Dohr) a) of the day, that thou mayest be well pleased with the prospect of receiving favor from God.

The times of Salat have been prescribed: (1) Fajr Prayer before sunrise, (2) `Asr Prayer before sunset, (3) `Isha and Tahajjud Prayers during the hours of night. Morning and Afternoon (Dhuhr) and Evening (Maghrib) Prayers " at the extremes of the day."

Reflect on it.

Brother a_27826
Any comment on 20:130?

Still manipulating it to meet your needs?

stop copy pasting and read and learn on your own.

And it seems you're selecting different translations that fit your needs...

How about you look at all translations...or pick one to follow consistently...

versus google and then pick the one translation that best fits your needs?

FYI - for those folks that aren't aware George Sale - translated the Quran in 1734 - he was an orientalist and a solicitor at that time.
In his translation and his writings of the Qur'an he didn't place the Qu'ran or Mohammed or Islam at an equal level to Christianity - but rather as second class entities to Christ and Christianity.
Is that what you are now resorting to zznoor?

Oh - and if you go to the Sunni or Shia websites or scholars and ask about the George Sale translation - they're going WHO?
Not recognized or accepted even by mainstream Muslims.

Yet zznoor is so desperate that now she's clutching to these obscure scholars who degraded the faith in their translation versus accept that we can practise our faith just as she can.
It all goes back to the insecurity and the psychological need she has to validate herself and her decision to leave ismailism.

Like I have offered - do you want me to walk you through the History of the Qur'an?

Back to the verse she brought up...

The verse in Arabic is here:

I will write it in English Transliteration

Faisbir AAala ma yaqooloona wasabbih bihamdi rabbika qabla tulooAAi alshshamsi waqabla ghuroobiha wamin ana-i allayli fasabbih waatrafa alnnahari laAAallaka tarda

(as far as I can see - no mention of Fajr, or or Asr or tahajoood...etc)

So now who's adding the words to the Quran?...
zznoor??

and here are some accepted translations - that are widely accepted by ALL MUSLIMS.

Pickthall:
Therefore (O Muhammad), bear with what they say, and celebrate the praise of thy Lord ere the rising of the sun and ere the going down thereof. And glorify Him some hours of the night and at the two ends of the day, that thou mayst find acceptance.

Bakthiar:
So have thou patience with what they say and glorify the praises of thy Lord before the coming up of the sun and before sunset and during the nighttime night watch and glorify at the end of the daytime, so that perhaps thou wilt be well-pleased.

Wahiduddin Khan
So be patient with anything they may say and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and glorify Him in the hours of the night and at the beginning and end of the day, so that you may find comfort.

Oh and the site you got your Sale quote from - btw it was in the Non Muslim works
I found this

NJ Dawood
Therefore bear with what they say. Give glory to your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. Praise Him night and day, so that you may find comfort.

PRAISE HIM NIGHT AND DAY?? ...


and here for some other views - from the controversialist section
Qaribullah
Therefore, be patient with what they say, and exalt with the praise of your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And in the watches of the night and at the edges of the day, exalt Him, so that you will be pleasing.


So tell me - since you used Sale as the interpretation you choose to follow - what other pieces of his translation do you follow?

Keep in mind - you are the novice when it comes to these matters - you copy paste - I have a phd.

So once again - no mention of the 5 prayers anywhere - where Allah says pray 5x a day - no one clear instruction.

This verse actually talks about the 3 prayers - sunset/sunrise - are edges of the day - ends of the day...
So Sunrise/one edge of the day and Sunset/another edge of the day - and in the watches of the night...
3 prayers

Where is the noon day prayer mentioned?

So from now on - you'll only use Sale in all your quranic quotations? Since you went to site and picked him as his translation FIT your arguement and none of the others did?

You're grasping at straws zznoor...the chappal must really hurt -

I think what is best for you to do now - is to say -
"To me mine - and to you yours"
This is what I believe to be right and it works for me - and this is what the Ismailies believe and it works for them - I need to let them be as they are letting me be...and I need to worry about my Judgement day - my hereafter and let Allah or Hazar Imam worry about the Ismailies..as they seem intent on going to Hell - following that Aga Khan....but that is their choice.

Btw - now you reflect upon all that i've written
I've logically and factually destroyed all your hocus pocus arguements that you've put up.
I've shown you that the Quran is open to multiple interpretations - EVEN WITHIN THE SUNNI INTERPRETATIONS..and Islam is open to many ways of practice - not the way your handlers seem to view it.

So a_27826
since zznoor brought you into this - what are you comments on the interpretations I put forth?

You seemed to chide me telling me she's following the prophet what issue do I have with that?

As I said - no issue she can follow whoever she wants - however she wants.
The issue is - she thinks I should follow it her way.

Tell me zznoor - what has your following done for you? Found peace?
If so - what are you doing here?...if your faith gives you peace - then you should be engrossed in it - not trying to find justifications for it on websites such as this.

First go and get a sound footing and grounding in the Faith you've chosen to follow - RESPECT that faith - and stop floundering around trying to find translations that fit your need to make hollow arguments.
Once you totally commit to it - then you will find the peace you're looking for.
There are many ways to Allah - or Ali in my opinion - and everyone is entitled to follow the way they want to.
The Quran says this - There is no compulsion in religion..
somehow that you missed reading zznoor.

Shams

To Shams Bhaijan,
Wah! Aapki PHD digree KAAM LAYI! Apne Noor copy aur paste ustad ki bolti hi bandh kar di!
It is not hidden any more that she has just little knowledge ln Islam but try to fool us putting garbage of her own maid up quranic ayas the way she wants for example salat, it is not quoted that Muslim must have to perform five times in quran but she find out that(which is not true) from copy and pasting!.
Now I am just waiting what she has to say about h.umer and h.abu bakar"s a shameful idols worshipping acts!?.
Suna hai ki aap Austin tashrif laye the lekin is dafa aapne muje phone nahi kiya?

Here are over 30 translation of 20:130
You choose

Generally Accepted Translations of the Meaning
Muhammad Asad
Hence, bear with patience whatever they [who deny the truth] may say, and extol thy Sustainer's limitless glory and praise Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and extol His glory, too, during some of the hours of the night as well as during the hours of the day, so that thou might attain to happiness.

M. M. Pickthall
Therefor (O Muhammad), bear with what they say, and celebrate the praise of thy Lord ere the rising of the sun and ere the going down thereof. And glorify Him some hours of the night and at the two ends of the day, that thou mayst find acceptance.

Shakir
Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and during hours of the night do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day, that you may be well pleased

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day: that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy.

Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)
Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day: that thou ma yest have (spiritual) joy.

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar
So have thou patience with what they say and glorify the praises of thy Lord before the coming up of the sun and before sunset and during the nighttime night watch and glorify at the end of the daytime, so that perhaps thou wilt be well-pleased.

Wahiduddin Khan
So be patient with anything they may say and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and glorify Him in the hours of the night and at the beginning and end of the day, so that you may find comfort.

T.B.Irving
So be patient about anything they may say and hymn your Lord´s praise before the sun´s rise and before its setting, and in the small hours of the night. Hymn it as well at the ends of the day so that you may meet approval.

[Al-Muntakhab]
Therefore, be patient O Muhammad and put up with what they insolently and defiantly say, and praise Allah, your Creator, and extol His glorious attributes before sunrise and before sunset and some time during the night and at both ends of the day so that you may hopefully be pleased with Allah's distinguished reward.

[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition)
So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and from the early part of the night glorify, and at the edges of the day that you may be content.

Abdel Haleem
so [Prophet] be patient with what they say- celebrate the praise of your Lord, before the rising and setting of the sun, celebrate His praise during the night, and at the beginning and end of the day, so that you may find contentment-

Abdul Majid Daryabadi
So bear thou patiently that which they say,
and hallow the praise of thy Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting thereof. And hallow Him in part of the night and the ends of the day, haply thou wilt be pleased.

Ahmed Ali
So you bear with patience what they say, and sing the praises of your Lord before the rising and setting of the sun, and honour Him in the watches of the night, and then at the two ends of day, that you may find acceptance.

Aisha Bewley
So be steadfast in the face of what they say and glorify your Lord with praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting. And glorify Him during part of the night and at both ends of the day, so that hopefully you will be pleased.

Ali Ünal
Therefore, be patient (O Messenger) with whatever they say and glorify your Lord with praise before sunrise and before sunset, and glorify Him during some hours of the night – as well as glorifying (Him) at the ends of the day – so that you may obtain God’s good pleasure and be contented (with what God has decreed for you).

Ali Quli Qara'i
So be patient with what they say, and celebrate the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the sunset, and glorify Him in watches of the night and at the day’s ends, that you may be pleased.

Hamid S. Aziz
Therefore, bear patiently with what they say, and celebrate the praises of your Lord ere the rising of the sun, and ere its setting, and glorify Him at times in the night and at the two ends of the day, that you may find acceptance.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali
So (endure) patiently under what they say, and extol (with) the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and then extol (Him) at various times of the night and at the two extremes of the daytime, that possibly you would be satisfied.

Muhammad Sarwar
(Muhammad), have patience with what they say, glorify your Lord, and always praise Him before sunrise, sunset, in some hours of the night and at both the beginning and end of the day, so that perhaps you will please your Lord.

Muhammad Taqi Usmani
So, (O messenger,) endure with patience what they say, and proclaim the purity and praise of your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And in some hours of night, proclaim His purity, and at points of the day as well, so that you may be pleased.

Shabbir Ahmed
Hence, (O Prophet) be patient about what they say. Strive in the Way of your Sustainer beginning before dawn to before sunset and even hours of the night, practically all day, that the Divine System becomes a living witness of His Praise. So that you attain true happiness (with success in your noble mission).

Syed Vickar Ahamed
So (O Prophet!) be patient with what they say, and (constantly) say (and recite) the Praises of your Lord, before the raising of the sun, and before its setting; Yes, say (and recite) them for a part of the hours of the night, and at the (two) ends of the day: So that you may have (all the spiritual) joy.

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) So be patient over what they say and exalt [ Allah ] with praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and during periods of the night [exalt Him] and at the ends of the day, that you may be satisfied.

Farook Malik
Therefore be patient with what they say. Glorify your Lord with His praise before sunrise and before sunset, glorify Him during the hours of the night as well as at the ends of the day, so that you may find satisfaction.

Dr. Munir Munshey
Therefore, with patience bear their remarks and chant the praises of your Lord before the sun rises, before it sets, and during the night. Glorify Him in the morning and evening. Perhaps you will feel contented.

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
So bear their (heart-rending) talk patiently and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rising of the sun (in Fajr [Dawn] Prayer) and before its setting (in the ‘Asr [Afternoon] Prayer) and glorify Him in the early hours of night (the Maghrib [Sunset] and ‘Isha’ [Night] Prayer) and also at the ends of the day (in Zuhr [Midday] Prayer when the first half of the day ends and the second half starts. O Esteemed Beloved, all this is designed) so that you may be pleased.

Dr. Kamal Omar
So show patience over what they say, and glorify (in the specified form of canonical Prayer) your Nourisher-Sustainer with (His) Praise: before the rising of the sun (in Salat-ul-Fajr), and before its setting (in Salat-ul-Asr), and out of the hours of the night also glorify (Him, in Salat-ul-isha) and at the extremes of the day (i.e., in Salat-ul-Zuhr when the day is at its Zenith and in Salat-ul-Maghrib when the day has come to a complete close) in order that you stand satisfied and agreed (with your inner self).

Talal A. Itani (new translation)
So bear patiently what they say, and celebrate the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting. And during the hours of the night glorify Him, and at the borders of the day, that you may be satisfied.

Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)
Therefore be patient with what they say, and glorify by praising your Lord, before the rising of the Sun, and before its setting. Yes, glorify for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day. That you may have joy.

Maududi
So bear patiently with what they say. Glorify your Lord, praising Him before sunrise and before sunset, and in the watches of the night, and glorify Him and at the ends of the day that you may attain to happiness.

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)
So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and at the approach of the night - you shall glorify - and at parts of the day, perhaps you may be content.

BTW
Go here to get more then 45 translation of any Aya of Quran

*http://islamawakened.com/index.php/qur-an

Copy link without * and paste in your browser

These 2 are amazing

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri
So bear their (heart-rending) talk patiently and glorify your Lord with His praise before the rising of the sun (in Fajr [Dawn] Prayer) and before its setting (in the ‘Asr [Afternoon] Prayer) and glorify Him in the early hours of night (the Maghrib [Sunset] and ‘Isha’ [Night] Prayer) and also at the ends of the day (in Zuhr [Midday] Prayer when the first half of the day ends and the second half starts. O Esteemed Beloved, all this is designed) so that you may be pleased.

Dr. Kamal Omar
So show patience over what they say, and glorify (in the specified form of canonical Prayer) your Nourisher-Sustainer with (His) Praise: before the rising of the sun (in Salat-ul-Fajr), and before its setting (in Salat-ul-Asr), and out of the hours of the night also glorify (Him, in Salat-ul-isha) and at the extremes of the day (i.e., in Salat-ul-Zuhr when the day is at its Zenith and in Salat-ul-Maghrib when the day has come to a complete close) in order that you stand satisfied and agreed (with your inner self).

Here are more


Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works

Bijan Moeinian Therefore, be patient with them and worship your Lord before sunrise, before sunset, at night, as well as during the day; you will be pleased with your reward.

Faridul Haque Therefore (O dear Prophet Mohammed - peace and blessings be upon him), patiently forbear upon their speech, and praising your Lord proclaim His Purity, before the sun rises and before it sets; and proclaim His Purity at some times of the night and at the two ends of the day, in the hope that you be pleased. (*With the great reward from your Lord)

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah Therefore, be patient with what they say, and exalt with the praise of your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And in the watches of the night and at the edges of the day, exalt Him, so that you will be pleasing.

Maulana Muhammad Ali So bear patiently what they say, and celebrate the praise of thy Lord before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and glorify (Him) during the hours of the night and parts of the day, that thou mayest be well pleased.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira So you be patient on what they say, and praise/glorify with your Lord's praise/gratitude/thanks, before the sun's ascent/rising, and before its decline/setting , and from the night's hours so praise/glorify, and the daytime's ends/edges, maybe/perhaps you accept/approve.

Sher Ali Bear patiently then what they say, and glorify thy Lord with HIS praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and glorify HIM in the hours of the night and all parts of the day, that thou mayest find true happiness.

Rashad Khalifa Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi) Then be patient over what they say, and praising your Lord proclaim His Holiness before the rising of the sun and before sun set, and proclaim His Holiness in the hours of the night and at the ends of the day, haply you may be pleased.

Amatul Rahman Omar Hence put up patiently with what they say and glorify your Lord with (His) praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting. And glorify (Him) during the hours of the night and at the ends of the day (in Prayers), that you may attain (real) happiness (and true bliss).

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali So bear patiently (O Muhammad SAW) what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day (an indication for the five compulsory congregational prayers), that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give you.

Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works

Arthur John Arberry So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and proclaim thy Lord's praise in the watches of the night, and at the ends of the day; haply thou wilt be well-pleasing.

Edward Henry Palmer Bear patiently then what they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and at times in the night celebrate them; and at the ends of the day; haply thou mayest please (Him).

George Sale Wherefore do thou, O Mohammed, patiently bear that which they say; and celebrate the praise of thy Lord before the rising of the sun, and before the setting thereof, and praise him in the hours of the night, and in the extremities of the day, that thou mayest be well pleased with the prospect of receiving favour from God.

John Medows Rodwell Put up then with what they say; and celebrate the praise of thy Lord before the sunrise, and before its setting; and some time in the night do thou praise him, and in the extremes of the day, that thou haply mayest please Him.

N J Dawood (draft) Therefore bear with what they say. Give glory to your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. Praise Him night and day, so that you may find comfort.

New and/or Partial Translations, and works in progress

Sayyid Qutb Hence, bear with patience whatever they may say, and extol your Lord’s limitless glory and praise Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and extol His glory, too, during the hours of the night as well as during the hours of the day, so that you may attain a state of contentment.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli So be patient with what they say, and glorify your Lord by praising Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and during (some) hours of the night also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day, that you may be pleased.

They are from
islamawakened.com/quran/20/130/default.htm