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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ?
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Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ?
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:

one of which is that the Essence is the Imam Mustakar and the Attributes are the Imam Mustawda..



Admin - I guess your understanding of Imam mustawda is not accurate. Can you please let us know who is Imam mustawda?
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
he has said that, I have personaly heard from the horse's mouth during one of his session at the Sorbonne what I have reported above and I have read ALL of his articles and books on Ismailism. Corbin does relate our belief in various periode and various geographies. one of which is that the Essence is the Imam Mustakar and the Attributes are the Imam Mustawda.


In this is the case, how we can trust Corbin and his books, one another author Marko Polo has also wrote about Ismaili imams but we are not taking it seriously because he had never visited any imams kingdom or met any imams he confessed in his book about this that he never met any Imam! but he has made some inappropriate comments about Ismailis imam!!.???? if we are not taking comments of Marko Polo as granted then how we can take Corbin comments as granted??, Corbin never studied Ismaili ginans and other granths also he just wrote what he heard from others!!.so in my opinion we should not give more important to corbin book.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:

Admin - I guess your understanding of Imam mustawda is not accurate. Can you please let us know who is Imam mustawda?


There is already a thread discussing Imam Mustawda.

Shah Karim Hazar Imam has been pointed out as being the Imam and PIR (Imam Mustawda - go see fiscussions on this Forum about this) of ALL Ismailis.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

In this is the case, how we can trust Corbin and his books, one another author Marko Polo


I would certainly not give attention to anyone comparing Marco Polo with Corbin.

But in your case, I will do it once you confirm to all of us that you have read Marco Polo and you have read Corbin and are therefore qualified to make an assessment of both.

As for studying Ginans, it is not a pre-requisite to have a proper knowledge of Ismailism. Studying Farmans is one of the important requisite. Ivanow who Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said knew more then many Bhagats, did not have any knowledge of the Ginanic language as he has himself confess in one of his introduction.

I respect Ginans of Satadhari Pirs as being the Farmans of the Imam Mustawda and therefore accurate in what they say about pre-Adam history and Imams having existed before Adam and on the exalted status of the Noor-e-Imamat which Corbin may have found in writings other then the Ginans.

What different does it make. One can find the Truth by various means and paths.
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tret



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
tret wrote:

Admin - I guess your understanding of Imam mustawda is not accurate. Can you please let us know who is Imam mustawda?


There is already a thread discussing Imam Mustawda.

Shah Karim Hazar Imam has been pointed out as being the Imam and PIR (Imam Mustawda - go see fiscussions on this Forum about this) of ALL Ismailis.


Imam Mustawda (aka Trustee Imam) is not Hujjat (Pir).
Current MHI is Imam and Pir, alright.
Trustee Imam is elected by sole discretion of the Imam in special circumstances and is from ahl-bayt and is temporary.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:

Imam Mustawda (aka Trustee Imam) is not Hujjat (Pir).


You are entitled to your own definition and understanding of Imam Mustawda. Lets agree to disagree.
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ismailignosis



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin, Imam Mustawda is NOT the same as Pir and there is no text written by an Ismaili Imam, Hujjat, Pir or Dai that says Imam Mustawda = Pir.

The only person who said that was Abualy Missionary and on that point, he is not correct. If you want to follow his view without question, then that is your problem.

Imam Pir Hasan was Pir and Imam Mustawda. But Pir Sadruddin was just Pir and not Imam Mustawda.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismailignosis wrote:

You have to realize that Karim Maherali is of a different school of thought. In their view, the Imam is the mazhar of the Godhead, the Transcendant One, and the Hujjat is the mazhar of the Intellect. That is a totally different paradigm which I do not agree with as it is inconsistent with much of historical Ismaili doctrine but they are entitled to their views.
MSMS in his Memoirs says:
"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

So school of thought that I am pointing out has always been part of our history. We must also keep in mind that there are two facets to our history - the zahir and the batin.

During the zahir phase of our history which would include the Fatimid and the Alamut periods, the philosophical/metaphysical needs of the time was to express Imamat as the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (interpreter of faith) and Divine Command (Perfect Teacher) respectively. Hence the Imam assumed those roles. However, even during those periods there were Pirs who were appointed and who appeared to be hidden or not part of the main institutional framework.

Hence the notion of Imamat/Piratan has always existed and has been understood as Essence/Divine Intellect combination.

MHI says that our faith is based upon thousands of years of history. That would imply that the notion of Imamat as being the Mazhar of the Essence and the corresponding notion of Piratan extends back thousands of years in history. For example Pir Hassan Kabirdin says in Anant Akhado that he served the Imam (Lord Krishna) during the Daupur Yuga as Vidur Vyas.


Last edited by kmaherali on Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismailignosis wrote:
Imam Pir Hasan was Pir and Imam Mustawda. But Pir Sadruddin was just Pir and not Imam Mustawda.
In my opinion Hazarat Hassan was called Imam Pir by MSMS because he was also regarded as Imam (as the inheritor of khalifat of Hazarat Aly) by the Shias generally. It was a zahir role and not the batin role. In this way MSMS was expressing his solidarity with the rest of the Shias. From the batin he was the Pir of Ismailis and the murid of the Imams Aly and Husein.

MSMS clearly indicated that Hazarat Hassan was appointed Pir by Prophet Muhammad and Imam Husein was appointed Imam by Hazarat Ali.

I think both Imam Mustawda and the Pirs are the Mazhars of the Divine Intellect hence from that perspective can be regarded as the same. Functionally there can only be one Mazhar of the Divine Essence at a given time.

There has been more discussion about this at;

Why was hazrat hasan not made imam even though he was older

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4361&start=0
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tret



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
ismailignosis wrote:
Imam Pir Hasan was Pir and Imam Mustawda. But Pir Sadruddin was just Pir and not Imam Mustawda.
In my opinion Hazarat Hassan was called Imam Pir by MSMS because he was also regarded as Imam (as the inheritor of khalifat of Hazarat Aly) by the Shias generally. It was a zahir role and not the batin role. In this way MSMS was expressing his solidarity with the rest of the Shias. From the batin he was the Pir of Ismailis and the murid of the Imams Aly and Husein.

MSMS clearly indicated that Hazarat Hassan was appointed Pir by Prophet Muhammad and Imam Husein was appointed Imam by Hazarat Ali.

I think both Imam Mustawda and the Pirs are the Mazhars of the Divine Intellect hence from that perspective can be regarded as the same. Functionally there can only be one Mazhar of the Divine Essence at a given time.

There has been more discussion about this at;

Why was hazrat hasan not made imam even though he was older

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4361&start=0





kmaherali - in the below link that you referenced, beside other things, you mentioned below and I quoted:


kmaherali wrote:

Hazarat Ali became the Imam at the death of his father Hazarat Abi Bakr and there is historical evidence that Hazarat Bibi Khatija was the Pir before Prophet Muhammad.


I am not sure if it's a typo [which I highly doubt], or you truly believe that Abi Bakr [Not sure if you mean Abu Bakr?], is the father of Hazrat Ali? Because, this would be a very wrong information to put.

Abu Talib is the father of Mauwla ali.

Bib Khadija is spelled with "d" and not a "t".
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tret



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
tret wrote:

Imam Mustawda (aka Trustee Imam) is not Hujjat (Pir).


You are entitled to your own definition and understanding of Imam Mustawda. Lets agree to disagree.


We can certainly agree to disagree; here are some more proofs.

- Mustawda3 Imam (امام مستودع) [Trustee Imam]: The literal meaning of Mustawda3 is "To leave something with trust [temporarily] to someone".

- Mustaqarr Imam (امام مستقر) [Permanent Imam]: The literal meaning of Mustaqarr is "Permanent"

Imam Mustawda3 is elected by the Imam in special circumstances, where Imam-e-Mustaqarr may be minor or the identity of the Mustaqarr Imam needs to be concealed, and the office of the Imamate is entrusted temporarily to Imam-e-Mustawda3. Imam-e-Mustawda3 must be from ahl-e-bayt [as Imam Husyn's brother]. Not during the time of all Imams [Mustaqarr], there is a [need of] Imam-e-Mustawda3. Where as the office of Hujjatship[Pirship] is ever existing alongside of the office of Imamate. In case of Imam Hasan, he was both Hujjat[Pir] and Imam Mustawda3. However, it doesn't have to be in all cases. You can read history of Ismailism, when Imam was in concealment, Imam-e-Mustawda3, wasn't the Hujjat, necessarily. However, he could be. So, to say Imam Mustawda3 is Hujjat[Pir] is simply not correct!

Tusi in his Paradise of Submission says Trustee Imam is appointed when Imams felt that precarious situation demanded it.The Imams sought that "an interval and a trail (of faith) take place ,deeming that concealment and strict protective, dissimulation (tawattur wa-taqiyya) were necessary." Hence their Permenant or Mustaqarr successor is hidden by trustee (Mustawda3) Imam, who conceals his master, generally his own brother.

Tusi also says words of Imam "Our affair is one hardship after another, one mystery after another, one ordeal after another. No one can bear it except an angel close (to God), a Prophet sent as a messenger, or a believer whose heart God has tested with faith"

The above information can be found in "The Ismailies in The Middle Ages - A History of Survival, A Search for Salvation"
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2014 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismailignosis wrote:

The only person who said that was Abualy Missionary and on that point, he is not correct.


I was not aware that Abualy said this neither did I rely on what Abualy said, though he also is entitled to his opinion.

I do not play with words. You can call the Imam Mustawda as the Hujjat ul Imam or I call him as the Pir or you call him with different names does not change the fact that the light of Piratan [Attributes] manifest itself in the Imam Mustawda, in the Pir and the Light of Imamat [Essence] manifest itself in the Imam Mustakar, not in the Imam of the mosque down the street. These are semantics and semantics do not change the reality.

I have no particular qualms with Abualy nor particular attachment but I respected him for his vast knowledge though we have many times differed in our views but always debated in a civilized manner.

I remember once Abualy said Budh Avatar was Adam and I told him it was Adam's father and he, at the end of a very lengthy discussion, accepted that mine was a serious proposition not to be dismissed.

I would suggest that you look at the status of Imam Mustakar and Mustawda from the reading of the Surat al Nurayan (the Surat of the TWO Lights) in the Quranic manuscript found at Bankipore. Those 2 Lights are always there while they may manifest themselves in 2 different entities or in the same like in the case of the present Imam and Pir..
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zznoor



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would suggest that you look at the status of Imam Mustakar and Mustawda from the reading of the Surat al Nurayan (the Surat of the TWO Lights) in the Quranic manuscript found at Bankipore. Those 2 Lights are always there while they may manifest themselves in 2 different entities or in the same like in the case of the present Imam and Pir..[/b]


Surat Al Nurayan is forgery. Now you want to prove concept with forged Sura. Give some real Aya or credible Hadith

Salaam
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

znoor,

A I have said many times, we do not shut ourselves from the reality of the compilation of the present day Mushaf which was not done by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and which did not even exist when Allah said that he had perfected our Faith.

We do recognise that many ayats that existed and were documented before the death of our Holy Prophet (PBUH) were censured and destroyed after his death by people who did not have any credentials from Allah.

That subject has already been discussed in the Forum and it will be appreciated that you re-visit those posts. Thanks!

Admin
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tret



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

admin wrote:

You can call the Imam Mustawda as the Hujjat ul Imam or I call him as the Pir or you call him with different names does not change the fact that the light of Piratan [Attributes] manifest itself in the Imam Mustawda, in the Pir and the Light of Imamat [Essence] manifest itself in the Imam Mustakar, not in the Imam of the mosque down the street. These are semantics and semantics do not change the reality.

Actually, these are not semantics. These are rather ranks [hudood] that one should recognize. Can I say now, that in school principal and teacher are same, if the principal comes as a replacement teacher one day? and vise versa?

So, rank/status of Imam-e-Mustawda is different than the one from Hujjat[Pir], and hence their roles and functions are different. It is possible that these two roles/ranks are occupied by same person; however, the status of each should be distinguished.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said, lets agree to disagree.
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zznoor



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
znoor,

A I have said many times, we do not shut ourselves from the reality of the compilation of the present day Mushaf which was not done by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and which did not even exist when Allah said that he had perfected our Faith.

We do recognise that many ayats that existed and were documented before the death of our Holy Prophet (PBUH) were censured and destroyed after his death by people who did not have any credentials from Allah.

That subject has already been discussed in the Forum and it will be appreciated that you re-visit those posts. Thanks!

Admin


Prince Karim Aga khan said at Sirat conference

"There is no justification for delaying the search for the answer to this question by the Muslims of the world, because we have the knowledge that Islam is Allah’s final message, the Quran His final book and Mohammed His last Prophet. We are blessed that the answers drawn from these sources guarantee that neither now, nor at any time in the future will we be going astray."
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, there is no contradiction. Maybe you call the Mushaf by the name of Quran while I believe in the Eternal Quran which is with Allah.

This is not the place for this topic, please go to the appropriate discussion on the definition of the Quran and do not derail the discussion on this thread which is on pre-Adam.

It is clear that you have no clue on the subject of this thread so please step aside and let people who have some info on this, discussed without being distracted by you constantly bringing new subject into this discussion. Thanks you.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
[ am not sure if it's a typo [which I highly doubt], or you truly believe that Abi Bakr [Not sure if you mean Abu Bakr?], is the father of Hazrat Ali? Because, this would be a very wrong information to put.

Abu Talib is the father of Mauwla ali.

Bib Khadija is spelled with "d" and not a "t".
It was a typo. Thanks for spotting it. I will change the post.

Thanks!
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

As per the statement above, there is no difference between the Mazhar of the Niranjan (Divine Essence) and the Niranjan (Divine Essence) itself. They are one.

So, are you suggesting that there's no difference between Lahoot and Nasoot?

Man won't be able to understand Lahood without Nasoot.

If there's no light bulb, you won't be able to see the electricity, is what you can think of Mazhar of God vs God Himself. Mazhar of God embodies God in physical form; where as God himself transcends human intellect, reasoning and capacity. Hence, the Mazhar of God [Nasoot] is not equal to God Himself [Lahoot]. That's where most people fall off either to the right or to the left, from sirat-ul-mustaqim, to not over-exaggerate but at the same time not to underestimate either.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tret,
Do you know the meaning of NIRANJAN? if not then google it, its has 7 different meanings and divine essense is one of them but divine essense is not right because its builds some kind restriction on the real meaning of word Niranjan in Gujarati.
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Tret,
Do you know the meaning of NIRANJAN? if not then google it, its has 7 different meanings and divine essense is one of them but divine essense is not right because its builds some kind restriction on the real meaning of word Niranjan in Gujarati.


I don't know the meaning of niranjan.

I was referring to the Divine Essence [Zaat-e-Allah Tahalaa].

My argument is that the Divine Essence is particular in the realm of spiritual; which is beyond our comprehension; whereas Mazhar of the Essnence [However, I disagree that Imam is Mazhar of the Essence, it's rather the Mazhar of the Divine Command], is not equal to the Essence ITself. Therefore, I gave example of Electric and Lightbulb to allegorize Lahoot and Nasoot.
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ismailignosis



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no historical or theological basis for saying Imam Mustawda and Pir/Bab is the same thing. No text supports this.

Karim M - the MSMS Memoirs quote never says Imam is mazhar of the Essence and we have no historical evidence that the early Imams taught this. On the contrary the early Imams said the Imams were the manifestation of the Names of God: "We are the Most Beautiful Names" (Imam Jafar al-Sadiq); "We are the Face of God; We are the Hand of God." (Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, Imam al-Baqir).

The Imam is the mazhar of the Names and Attributes of God - whether you conceptualize that as the Command of God or as the Universal Intellect. And even then, the distinction between mazhar (locus of manifestation) and al-Zahir (the manifested Principle) remains.

Admin, Surah al-Nurayn is a known forgery.

This business of Fatimid and Alamut phases being the zahiri phase of history while only the South Asian tradition being the truth means that countless generatinos of Ismailis Dais and Hujjats and their communities had it all wrong. You statement is also incorrect historically because the doctrine of Aql and Nafs and the Imam as the manifestation are found in the esoteric tawili and haqaiq works, not the zahiri works like Daaim al-Islam.

An example where we had Imam Mustawda who was not a Pir. The father of Imam al-Mahdi died when al-Mahdi was very young. So the Imam appointed his brother, Muhammad b. Ahmad as the Trustee Imam until al-Mahdi came of age. According to Imam Muizz, Muhammad b. Ahmad was the Mustawda Imam and al-Mahdi was the mutaqarr Imam. Now go check the old Dua and check the name of the Pir contemporary to Imam al-Mahdi. You will see it was not his uncle, it was someone else entirely.

Karim M - your statement that MSMS only called Hasan "Pir Imam Hasan" for external reasons is plain false and unsubstantiated. If this is true, why does the Asal Dua call him Pir Imam Hasan while all subsequent Pirs are just called Pir Ahmad Hadi or Pir Satgur Nur - and not Pir Imam Satgur Nur? Also MSMS in a farman said Pir Imam Hasan - farmans are for Ismailis only, but other Pirs he never used the word Imam. You really need to rethink what you are saying and consider the evidence.

And finally, even if Imam Mustawda is not the Pir - this does not take anyting away from the exalted rank of Pir who is a permanent rank and always present on earth like the Imam.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismailignosis wrote:

Admin, Surah al-Nurayn is a known forgery.


And would you say the verse of ginan that says "Hassan, Hussain ,do Noor Pichano" is also a forged ginan?

I have BK Farmans of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in manuscripts, they are very clear on the concept of the two Noor. I invite you to come work with us on these manuscripts unless you consider them also as forgeries.

My email is heritage@ismaili.net
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
kmaherali wrote:

As per the statement above, there is no difference between the Mazhar of the Niranjan (Divine Essence) and the Niranjan (Divine Essence) itself. They are one.

So, are you suggesting that there's no difference between Lahoot and Nasoot?
I did not say anything. I merely referred to Imam's statement which I would suggest you re-read.

Science of today clearly demonstrates that there is no distinction betwen matter and spirit. For more on that I would suggest that you read the thread on Science and Faith at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=734&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Highlight:

Paradoxes of physics and theology

What is light? What is matter? These are questions fundamental to a scientific understanding of the world. Or are they?

Certainly they are questions long known to have no simple answers. Indeed,a recently completed experiment goes so far as to indicate that they might have no answers at all.

If this interpretation is right, science is not what we thought it was; some might argue it has begun to look a little like theology.

Our story begins in the early part of this century. Light was discovered to have a dual nature. Some experiments pointed to it being a wave; others to it being made of particles. But that is odd: How can something be both a spread-out wave - like a succession of ripples on a pond - and at the same time a small solid particle - like a tiny billiard ball? The two descriptions appeared contradictory.

No way out of this dilemma could be found until Niels Bohr, the Danish physicist, came up with a remarkable suggestion. He claimed that science tells us nothing about the world as it is in itself - it does not answer questions of the form: "What is... ?" Instead, it tells us of the way we interact with the world.

Thus, concepts like "wave" and "particle" apply not to objects themselves (light or matter), but to how we interact with them. There are wave-like interactions and particle-like interactions, and that is all. It being physically impossible to perform both types of experiment at the same time, there is never a need to invoke both concepts simultaneously. So provided we stick to interactions, there is no paradox.

Bohr went on to assert that this ability to speak meaningfully only of our interactions was no temporary restriction. This was the frontier of the knowable - a barrier that would never be breached.


Last edited by kmaherali on Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
ismailignosis wrote:

Admin, Surah al-Nurayn is a known forgery.

Admin,
I think we should accept the Qur'an because the Imam himself in his infinite wisdom has accepted it. We cannot ourselves add or remove anything to it. We are certainly free to interprete it according to our faith and understanding.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismailignosis wrote:

Karim M - the MSMS Memoirs quote never says Imam is mazhar of the Essence and we have no historical evidence that the early Imams taught this.
Of course the Imam will not use technical terms such as mazhar when writing for the general public, but he used the word manifested and mazhar is defined as the locus of manifestation. So yes he did indeed imply that.

However I have mentioned in the past that to a group of scholars at the IIS he clearly stated that he was was Mazhar -i- dhat illahi.

And of course our Ginans are quite clear about that. The Old Dua that was recited for centuries stated that. Isn't that enough historical evidence.
ismailignosis wrote:

On the contrary the early Imams said the Imams were the manifestation of the Names of God: "We are the Most Beautiful Names" (Imam Jafar al-Sadiq); "We are the Face of God; We are the Hand of God." (Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, Imam al-Baqir).

The Imam is the mazhar of the Names and Attributes of God - whether you conceptualize that as the Command of God or as the Universal Intellect. And even then, the distinction between mazhar (locus of manifestation) and al-Zahir (the manifested Principle) remains.
As I mentioned earlier the Mazhar of the Essence can call himself the Mazhar of the Attributes depending upon context. I have no problem with that.
ismailignosis wrote:

This business of Fatimid and Alamut phases being the zahiri phase of history while only the South Asian tradition being the truth means that countless generatinos of Ismailis Dais and Hujjats and their communities had it all wrong. You statement is also incorrect historically because the doctrine of Aql and Nafs and the Imam as the manifestation are found in the esoteric tawili and haqaiq works, not the zahiri works like Daaim al-Islam..
I think you have misread what I said. I never implied that what was preached during the Fatimid period was a lie. I just said that in a zaheri context it would not have been approriate to articulate highly esoteric concepts. As I said the Mazhar of the Essence can assume any other forms but not vice versa.
ismailignosis wrote:

Karim M - your statement that MSMS only called Hasan "Pir Imam Hasan" for external reasons is plain false and unsubstantiated. If this is true, why does the Asal Dua call him Pir Imam Hasan while all subsequent Pirs are just called Pir Ahmad Hadi or Pir Satgur Nur - and not Pir Imam Satgur Nur? Also MSMS in a farman said Pir Imam Hasan - farmans are for Ismailis only, but other Pirs he never used the word Imam. You really need to rethink what you are saying and consider the evidence.
Dua is very much a Zaheri statement. It articulates our beliefs to the general public. It was presented as evidence in the court of law. So it has also to do with how we relate to other Muslims - Shias and Sunnis. I think the Panj tan Paak was added for the same reason.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismailignosis wrote:
An example where we had Imam Mustawda who was not a Pir. The father of Imam al-Mahdi died when al-Mahdi was very young. So the Imam appointed his brother, Muhammad b. Ahmad as the Trustee Imam until al-Mahdi came of age. According to Imam Muizz, Muhammad b. Ahmad was the Mustawda Imam and al-Mahdi was the mutaqarr Imam. Now go check the old Dua and check the name of the Pir contemporary to Imam al-Mahdi. You will see it was not his uncle, it was someone else entirely.
Thanks for this info. This would imply that Imam Mustawda has no spiritual status at all. I agree there would be no comparison between the Pir and Imam Mustawda . It was like the status of Lady Ali Shah during the time of MSMS.
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ismailignosis



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"This would imply that Imam Mustawda has no spiritual status at all."

- Well no, that does not follow. Imam Mustawda has all the powers and authority of the Imam while he is appointed and he exercises those powers - until at his death he must surrender them to the real Imam.

This is why at the historical level, Imam Hasan led the Shia after Imam Ali died, and why Imam Muhammad b. Ahmad led the pre-Fatimid Ismaili Dawah until al-Mahdi came of age and took over himself.

Lady Aly Shah was not a Imam Mustawda, she was a Hujjat.

The Paris Conference resolutions say the Imam is the mazhar of God [not the essence of God]. Either way, the mazhar can only be the mazhar of what has the Divine Name al-Zahir. The Essence is beyond all names and therefore the Essence has no direct mazhar - except through the Names. THus, the Imam in both cases must be mazhar of the Divine Names and not only the Essence.

Admin -the purported Quranic surah al-nurayn is a forgery. I never said the idea of there being two Lights - Imam and Pir - was a forgery.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismailignosis wrote:

This is why at the historical level, Imam Hasan led the Shia after Imam Ali died, and why Imam Muhammad b. Ahmad led the pre-Fatimid Ismaili Dawah until al-Mahdi came of age and took over himself.

Lady Aly Shah was not a Imam Mustawda, she was a Hujjat..

But in both cases they were the murids of the Imam of the time. Prophet Muhammad was a murid of the Imam although he was the Prophet and the leader of the Umma. In the case of Imam Hassan, Imam Husein was of the age yet he did not inherit the caliphate but was the Imam Mustaqarr.
ismailignosis wrote:

The Paris Conference resolutions say the Imam is the mazhar of God [not the essence of God]. Either way, the mazhar can only be the mazhar of what has the Divine Name al-Zahir. The Essence is beyond all names and therefore the Essence has no direct mazhar - except through the Names. THus, the Imam in both cases must be mazhar of the Divine Names and not only the Essence.
We will have to disagree on this one.
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