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tret wrote:So, based on the above, kindly let us know; how half-human, fish, or other animals would perform these two main roles or duties?

There are two issues here.
- The non-human Avatars were not long term. The Imams manifested in non-human forms to perform certain short term tasks to create enabling conditions for the practice of faith for mankind (not only the murids). After the tasks were accomplished, they reverted back to their human forms. The details of the tasks I alluded to in my earlier post.

- The role of interpretation of the faith was normally performed by the Pirs or other elevated souls.

Please refer to my earlier post for information.

tret wrote: Dear kmaherali -
I get what you are saying. But the question is really not that, regarding the verse of Qur'an I referenced [7:54]. What you are saying is these paths lead individual souls to perfection, which is the purpose of creation, alright; however, that doesn't explain the creation of the cosmos and spiritual realm! Do you get it?

For me creation includes the cosmos and the spiritual realm as well.

kmaherali wrote:

tret wrote:So, based on the above, kindly let us know; how half-human, fish, or other animals would perform these two main roles or duties?

There are two issues here.
- The non-human Avatars were not long term. The Imams manifested in non-human forms to perform certain short term tasks to create enabling conditions for the practice of faith for mankind (not only the murids). After the tasks were accomplished, they reverted back to their human forms. The details of the tasks I alluded to in my earlier post.

- The role of interpretation of the faith was normally performed by the Pirs or other elevated souls.

This is your understanding, and I appreciate your opinion and belief; but you are yet to provide an evidence for that, until then it remains your opinion.

kmaherali wrote: Please refer to my earlier post for information.

tret wrote: Dear kmaherali -
I get what you are saying. But the question is really not that, regarding the verse of Qur'an I referenced [7:54]. What you are saying is these paths lead individual souls to perfection, which is the purpose of creation, alright; however, that doesn't explain the creation of the cosmos and spiritual realm! Do you get it?

For me creation includes the cosmos and the spiritual realm as well.

[/quote]
Right. Except you didn't explain, how [these 6] paths, created the cosmos and spiritual realm?
I am saying these paths completes individual souls, but that doesn't say the creation of the spiritual realm.
You still couldn't convince me, but I think there's a disconnect that you are not getting what I am saying.

tret wrote:This is your understanding, and I appreciate your opinion and belief; but you are yet to provide an evidence for that, until then it remains your opinion..

I am not sure what kind of evidence you are seeking. Below are some facts worthy of reflection in this regard.

- MSMS has mentioned Das Avtaar in his Farman which I quoted earlier.
- Das Avtaar was presented as evidence in the court of law to establish the authority of the Imam from the legal point of view and hence authority on the expenditure of Imamat funds.
- All our peers have mentioned Das Avtaar in their Ginans.
- There is a photograph of a potrait of Machh Avtaar hanging on the wall of MSMS's residence.
- Das Avtaar was mentioned in our Old Dua which was approved by the Imams for centuries.

There are also other articles about Das Avtaar posted at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=344

Please go through them.

tret wrote: Right. Except you didn't explain, how [these 6] paths, created the cosmos and spiritual realm?
I am saying these paths completes individual souls, but that doesn't say the creation of the spiritual realm.
You still couldn't convince me, but I think there's a disconnect that you are not getting what I am saying.

OK in that case we will just leave it at that.

- MSMS has mentioned Das Avtaar in his Farman which I quoted earlier.

The Farmaan you quoted doesn't say anything about das avatar.

- Das Avtaar was presented as evidence in the court of law to establish the authority of the Imam from the legal point of view and hence authority on the expenditure of Imamat funds.

it was means to establish the Imam's authority, not the end.

- All our peers have mentioned Das Avtaar in their Ginans.

right. I am more interested in any reference of das avatar outside ginanic context., such as Alamut era, Fatimid/Pre-Fatimid

- There is a photograph of a potrait of Machh Avtaar hanging on the wall of MSMS's residence.

There is a portrait of Shah Qajar also in the residence of MHI [I believe], does that give Shah Qajar religious status?

- Das Avtaar was mentioned in our Old Dua which was approved by the Imams for centuries.

Indian jama'at old du'a was exclusive to indian jama'at. As I indicated before, other jama'ats at other parts of the world had their own du'a in their local language. And that didn't have any mention of das avatar.


I think here's what my understanding is.

das avatar can be considered valid in the context of indian jama'at, exclusively. Outside of indian jama'at, I am still to see Ismailis from other parts of the world, i.e. syria, pakistan, afghanistan, tajikistan, etc... to attest that.

Until then, I guess we can agree to disagree.

kmaherali wrote:
tret wrote:

Right. Except you didn't explain, how [these 6] paths, created the cosmos and spiritual realm?
I am saying these paths completes individual souls, but that doesn't say the creation of the spiritual realm.
You still couldn't convince me, but I think there's a disconnect that you are not getting what I am saying.
OK in that case we will just leave it at that.

We can certainly leave it at that. But you still owe me a POV, when/if you finished reading the article I posted.

Until then, you stick to your version of interpretation, and I stick with the version of our Hujjat's interpretation.

kmaherali wrote: Yes I am equating Imam to God. There are Farmans of MSMS and the ginans to that effect.

Would you mind provide the Farmaan [date & place]?

Here's what I'd like you to read and respond.
What's your take on these?

- Ismaili Constitution, Para (A): (Tawhid)
I assume you already have a copy, if not I can certainly provide a link to you.

- Surah Ikhlas which is last part of our Du'a:

- A good reading about Tawhid: Please read and reflect/respond
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/12544

- Ismaili theosophers describes the 'stright path' [sirat-ul-mustaqim] as to be in between exaggeration and under-estimation of the status of the Imam. To consider Imam as God, that would be an exaggeration. To call Imam by names of God, that is absolutly acceptable. Because Imams are Beautiful Names of God, and certainly not an under-estimation.

tret wrote:Indian jama'at old du'a was exclusive to indian jama'at. As I indicated before, other jama'ats at other parts of the world had their own du'a in their local language. And that didn't have any mention of das avatar.

You are mistaken, I met Shaikh Khodr Hamawi few years back. The Gentlemen is an old scholar from Syria now residing in Lebanon. He recited by heart the Asal Dua to me "Dua Paro Dua Paro.." and he confirmed to me that in Syria those of his generation who knew the Dua were reciting it that way up to 1956 when the shorter Dua was introduced. I was amazed at his memory that so many years after 1956, he still remembers how to recite the previous version of the Dua of Pir Sadardin.

Shaikh Khodr is still alive, may Mowla give him long life and health so you can have the time to verify this info directly from him.

Admin

Admin wrote:

tret wrote:Indian jama'at old du'a was exclusive to indian jama'at. As I indicated before, other jama'ats at other parts of the world had their own du'a in their local language. And that didn't have any mention of das avatar.

You are mistaken, I met Shaikh Khodr Hamawi few years back. The Gentlemen is an old scholar from Syria now residing in Lebanon. He recited by heart the Asal Dua to me "Dua Paro Dua Paro.." and he confirmed to me that in Syria those of his generation who knew the Dua were reciting it that way up to 1956 when the shorter Dua was introduced. I was amazed at his memory that so many years after 1956, he still remembers how to recite the previous version of the Dua of Pir Sadardin.

Shaikh Khodr is still alive, may Mowla give him long life and health so you can have the time to verify this info directly from him.

Admin

that certainly is interesting. And I am going to go ahead and take your words on that.

But, question is, why not for other parts of the Jama'at else where?
I guess there is a reason why we have our current Du'a. Mauwla knows best. Since we are children of the time [as you rightfully stated many times], then we should obey the current Farameen [and therefore, current Du'a].

Yes we should recite current Dua, not previous version. But this does not void all our previous doctrines.

Remember the present Imam said Ginans are to be kept for generations YET to be born.

And pre-Adam knowledge is to be found in many places in the ginans. Even pre-creation and pre-eternity knowledge. The concept of Das Avatar is not different in Dua from what is in the ginans. The concept was part of the Dua which even Pir Shabuddin Shah recited in front of the Jamat and in the presence of the Imam Aga Ali Shah. That is in the manuscript that I have read.

I already quoted farman of SMS so do not say there is no farman on Das avatar.

tret wrote:The Farmaan you quoted doesn't say anything about das avatar.

Not a big deal, I will repost it as under:
The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

tret wrote: right. I am more interested in any reference of das avatar outside ginanic context., such as Alamut era, Fatimid/Pre-Fatimid.

Are you implying that the ginanic reference is invalid?

tret wrote: There is a portrait of Shah Qajar also in the residence of MHI [I believe], does that give Shah Qajar religious status?

It may not give the religious status but at the very least it acknowledges the concept of Machh Avtaar

tret wrote: das avatar can be considered valid in the context of indian jama'at, exclusively. Outside of indian jama'at, I am still to see Ismailis from other parts of the world, i.e. syria, pakistan, afghanistan, tajikistan, etc... to attest that.

Just reflect on the Farman below.

"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964
We can certainly leave it at that. But you still owe me a POV, when/if you finished reading the article I posted.

tret wrote: Until then, you stick to your version of interpretation, and I stick with the version of our Hujjat's interpretation.

OK I will provide you with my POV after I have read it,

tret wrote: Would you mind provide the Farmaan [date & place]?.

I will provide you later.

tret wrote: Here's what I'd like you to read and respond.
What's your take on these?.

These are our 'zaheri' doctrines through which we represent our faith and I have no problem with that. In fact that is the way I would articulate our doctrine of tawhid. However there is also the batini dimension which is personal and which we should not articulate publicly.

To shed more light into this issue, there was an interview conducted by Andrew Gardner of ITV on 5th June 1985 at Chantilly ( I have the whole transcript of it), in which Mawlana Hazar Imam was asked: "One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, but it is blasphemous?" To which MHI answered: "Absolutely. I mean, as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatary - all forms of idolatary are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western World doesn't necessarily understand the theology of Shi'ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in it's essence is difficult."

kmaherali wrote: Not a big deal, I will repost it as under:
The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473)

Very nice! So, please do explain in the context of Islamic. Because honestly, I have no idea about the notion of 10 avatar. So, if you explain this in the Islamic context.

kmaherali wrote: Are you implying that the ginanic reference is invalid?

No! I am not implying that. I am trying to find any references, prior to indian Jama'at, if it's truely an Islamic [Or Ismaili] concept, that existed before conversion of Indian Jama'at! Or it's a concept that is integrated now to Ismaili religion.

I mean look, even today there are brothers from indian jama'at who really doesn't accept the Qur'an wholeheartedly and say stuff like [Qur'an is old], [Qur'an is outdated], [Prophet didn't order the Qur'an to be composed]. It took our great Pir and Dais and Imams what, like 300, 400 years, since the conversion of indian jama'at? And some folks still having hard time accepting the Qur'an. Now, you are expecting other [non-indian] jama'at to accept the notion of 10 incarnation over-night?

kmaherali wrote: However there is also the batini dimension which is personal and which we should not articulate publicly

I thought we are discussing this matter on a public forum. Aren't we?

I really don't care and not seriously my business to find out your personal belief! So, are you implying that the batini dimension of tawhid is to say Imam is God? Well that's not really hard for one to understand. If that's the batini meaning of tawhid, then it's much much easier to articulate than zahiri meaning of it.

Are you implying that the ginanic reference is invalid?

Karim,
Here we go!! that is the problem Tret have, he doesn't accept ginanic references as a valid references he only prefer to accept the references only from Quran or from his so called Qasidas which both does not have enough references to give on any subject. The pity is this he does not even accept the Imams farmans for any references!!

By the way you are wasting your time Kbhai because before you bro.Shams, Admin and my self discussed this topics in detail but as his habit after every other month he bring 'DAS AVATAR' topic for more discussion again and again!!

tret wrote:Very nice! So, please do explain in the context of Islamic. Because honestly, I have no idea about the notion of 10 avatar. So, if you explain this in the Islamic context.

First of all Tret I like your questioning although we disagree sometimes. It is OK to disgree so long as we are civil about it. I appreciate that ii is not easy for the non-khojas to understand the concept because that was not part of their tradition. But MHI says that diversity is strength which would imply that we can learn good things/aspects from each other.

As I have explained in my earlier posts, Allah is responsible for continuos creation, preservation and sustenance. In this context He may according to His abolute wisdom decide to undertake any task to preserve his creation. Hence He has assumed forms from fish to humans to stabilize societies and to create enabling conditions for the practice of faith.

As MSMS explains in his Memoirs:

"The Prophet died without appointing a Khalif or successor. The Shia school of thought maintains that although direct Divine inspiration ceased at the Prophet's death, the need of Divine guidance continued and this could not be left merely to millions of mortal men, subject to the whims and gust of passion and material necessity, capable of being momentarily but tragically misled by greed, by oratory, or by the sudden desire for material advantage. These dangers were manifest in the period immediately following our Holy Prophet's death. Mohammed had been, as I have shown, both a temporal and a spiritual sovereign......

The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout. The Sunnis, however, consider him the fourth in the succession of Khalifs to temporal power."

tret wrote: I mean look, even today there are brothers from indian jama'at who really doesn't accept the Qur'an wholeheartedly and say stuff like [Qur'an is old], [Qur'an is outdated], [Prophet didn't order the Qur'an to be composed]. It took our great Pir and Dais and Imams what, like 300, 400 years, since the conversion of indian jama'at? And some folks still having hard time accepting the Qur'an. Now, you are expecting other [non-indian] jama'at to accept the notion of 10 incarnation over-night?

Actually the MSMS discouraged muids to read the Qur'an because he felt it would confuse them perhaps because at that time there weren't qualified Ismailis to give proper Ta'wil. There was a discussion between a murid and MSMS on religious matters and below is an extract:
"Talking about Islam and on telling him that I was reading Yusufali’s English translation of the Holy Quran, he said that it was not necessary for the Ismailis generally to read it as it would only confuse them."


I would encourage you to read the whole article at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=335

Even today the Imam tells us to study parts of the Quran and not the entire version because it can confuse especially if you do not know Arabic.

I am not expecting the non-khojas to understand Das Avtaar right away. It needs times and reflection. I appreciate your willingness to understand it.

I thought we are discussing this matter on a public forum. Aren't we?.[/quote]
I agree that it is public. However for all intents and purposes it is really hidden. Not many people access the forums and it is generally not easy for a new person to extract information from the forum. I notice the same issues being raised over and over although they have been dealt with many times!

tret wrote: I really don't care and not seriously my business to find out your personal belief! So, are you implying that the batini dimension of tawhid is to say Imam is God? Well that's not really hard for one to understand. If that's the batini meaning of tawhid, then it's much much easier to articulate than zahiri meaning of it.

Batin dimension is a personal matter. The Peers have indicated to us who the Imam is. One can accept their word as an act of faith or one can seek to find for themselves.
At present it appears that the Imam is discouraging us to call him God in a zaheri context.
He made a Farman in Syria:
"That which is zaher is zaher that which is batin is batin."

kmaherali wrote: As I have explained in my earlier posts, Allah is responsible for continuos creation, preservation and sustenance. In this context He may according to His abolute wisdom decide to undertake any task to preserve his creation. Hence He has assumed forms from fish to humans to stabilize societies and to create enabling conditions for the practice of faith.

I do agree that God is perpetually involved in the creation; however, as God says HIS is a Command. God says 'Be' and there it is. The agent however, is the secondary reality. The Command, the Aql and Nafs. So, God is not the reality who manifests, but rather the secondary reality [Command that is], in the Manifest Imam, as Perfect Man, Authoritative Instructor [The Lord, The Master, The Teacher]. Brother, I still don't agree that the Command [God according to you] appear as fish or non-human. I am sorry. It's your belief, and I have respect for it.

kmaherali wrote: As I have explained in my earlier posts, Allah is responsible for continuos creation, preservation and sustenance. In this context He may according to His abolute wisdom decide to undertake any task to preserve his creation. Hence He has assumed forms from fish to humans to stabilize societies and to create enabling conditions for the practice of faith.

I agree.

kmaherali wrote: Actually the MSMS discouraged muids to read the Qur'an because he felt it would confuse them perhaps because at that time there weren't qualified Ismailis to give proper Ta'wil. There was a discussion between a murid and MSMS on religious matters and below is an extract:
"Talking about Islam and on telling him that I was reading Yusufali’s English translation of the Holy Quran, he said that it was not necessary for the Ismailis generally to read it as it would only confuse them."

Oh my dear friend. I seriously hope that you realize the context of the Farmaan. Few things to consider.

1) First of all: This Farmaan has a very specific setting and context and audience. [Those with limited knowledge of Arabic]. But the same was the case with Central Asian Jama'at. They don't speak Arabic either. You must remember this Farmaan has a very specific context and should not be taken from its context and apply it in a general sense.

2) It's not acceptable that Pirs were not knowledgeable about Qur'an. That is why Pirs and Dais composed those beautiful ginans. And those teachings were taken from the Qur'an.

3) Even when MSMS discouraged [those specific jama'at members] to not read Qur'an, that doesn't mean to renounce Qur'an altogether! And to call it [Old, outdated, not necessary, etc.. etc..], simply because indian jama'at was not capable of understanding it. This is completely illogical and the Imam would never imply this. Please, do not take what Imam says out of context and mis-interpret it. Even myself don't understand Arabic and I don't rely on the translations done by others. But the literal translation is not what we are after. It is actually the Tah'wil of the Qur'an that we are after, and that's done through Farameen of the Imam.

tret wrote:I do agree that God is perpetually involved in the creation; however, as God says HIS is a Command. God says 'Be' and there it is. The agent however, is the secondary reality. The Command, the Aql and Nafs. So, God is not the reality who manifests, but rather the secondary reality [Command that is], in the Manifest Imam, as Perfect Man, Authoritative Instructor [The Lord, The Master, The Teacher]. Brother, I still don't agree that the Command [God according to you] appear as fish or non-human. I am sorry. It's your belief, and I have respect for it.

So what about the situation when there were no humans?

tret wrote: 1) First of all: This Farmaan has a very specific setting and context and audience. [Those with limited knowledge of Arabic]. But the same was the case with Central Asian Jama'at. They don't speak Arabic either. You must remember this Farmaan has a very specific context and should not be taken from its context and apply it in a general sense.

I agree, I was just responding to your remark that khojas have a hard time accepting the Qur'an. Of course times have changed and we must study the Qur'an as per the Farmans of the Imam. Infact he has set up the Quranic Studies department at the IIS for that purpose.

tret wrote: 2) It's not acceptable that Pirs were not knowledgeable about Qur'an. That is why Pirs and Dais composed those beautiful ginans. And those teachings were taken from the Qur'an..

I have never implied that the Peers were not versed in the Qur'an, they would not have been able to do the tafsir without the knowledge of the Qur'an. In fact Pir Sadardeen says in the Ginan:

ejee peer sadardeen yaaraa paddere kuraanaa
bahaar jaave taaku(n) a(n)dar laanaa
shaahne sujaanno, aapnnaa peer ne peechhaanno..bee saaheeyaa.6

Peer Sadardeen recites the Qur'aan. He brings back into the fold those who leave it. Know the Imaam (in His essence) and recognise your Peer (Guide).

Hazrat Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said:

"Do you know which village Pir Sadruddin came from? You will know if you read his life-history. You were Hindus. From the exegesis of the Holy Quran Pir Sadruddin composed Ginan and explained to you."

Peer Sadardeen was well respected within the broader Muslim community as a scholar and a Sufi. He even performed Hajj and has a title 'al-Hajj'.

kmaherali wrote:So what about the situation when there were no humans?

What about it?

tret wrote: What about it?

You said and I quote:"God is not the reality who manifests, but rather the secondary reality [Command that is], in the Manifest Imam, as Perfect Man, Authoritative Instructor [The Lord, The Master."

So I am asking how did the command manifest when there were no humans?

tret wrote:Oh my dear friend. I seriously hope that you realize the context of the Farmaan. Few things to consider..

Please note that I never said that the Imam made a Farman discouraging the murids from reading the Qur'an. I said there was a conversation between a murid and the Imam and I also provided the link of the conversation. Please at least read the posts carefully!

kmaherali wrote:

tret wrote: What about it?

You said and I quote:"God is not the reality who manifests, but rather the secondary reality [Command that is], in the Manifest Imam, as Perfect Man, Authoritative Instructor [The Lord, The Master."

So I am asking how did the command manifest when there were no humans?

What about the non-humans today? Do Imams have duty to guide them too?

You will find your answer.


Remember, Imam guides murids to realize God through Intellect, by perfecting their[murid's] soul. Intellect is the light of Soul. Fish and animals don't have human intellect.

tret wrote:What about the non-humans today? Do Imams have duty to guide them too?

You will find your answer.


Remember, Imam guides murids to realize God through Intellect, by perfecting their[murid's] soul. Intellect is the light of Soul. Fish and animals don't have human intellect.

Yes the Imam has a relationship with them as well. Below is a Ginan which describes Pir Shams' encounter with animals in the jungle!

TEEAA(N) GURE GINAAN KAREAA - PEER SHAMSH

ejee teeaa(n) gure ginaan kareaa, ane kabutar kare bahu kodd;
gur am ne evo vataavajo, jaa(n) thee padde jeev nee suj...........1

There the Guide spread the teaching, and the pigeons were filled with great eagerness. 'O Guide, instruct us in the way through which awareness is granted to the soul.'

ejee peer shamas sat-gur nur chhe, ane neem paayo neeradhaar;
paarelaa paa(n)e laagee karee, ane bahu kare aradaas..............2

Peer Shams is the True Guide and the Light, and they received the rule from him forthwith. The doves fell at his feet, and offered many prayers.

ejee ek pagale teeaa(n) ubhaa raheaa, ane maleaa bahu tthaatth;
aasees aalee karee, gure dekhaaddee vaatt.........................3

They remained standing there upon one leg, joined in splendid array. Bestowing his blessings upon them, the Guide showed them the Way.

ejee kotharee kaa(n)dhe baa(n)dheaa, ane gure bataaveo bhed;
daso(n)d nu(n) daan dejo, to paap tamaaraa jaae chhed.............4

Humbly they tied bags on their shoulders, and the Guide told them the secret: 'If you give the offering of the tithe, your sins will be destroyed.

ejee nav paa(n)tee tamaaro bheerakh chhe, ane dasamo amaaro bhaag;
te tame raakhajo, je chhe amaaro laag.............................5

'Nine parts are for you to consume, and the tenth is our portion. Keep this carefully, for it is our due.'

ejee alap jeev aaraadheaa, valee kotharee laee raakhee kaa(n)dh;
teeaan jaaee so(n)pajo, jeeaa(n) padde tam ne saa(n)j.............6

The little creatures worshipped him, then took up their bags around their necks. 'Go there and hand it over, and you will be granted awareness there.'

ejee peere pharamaan aaleaa, ane vimaras surabhaan saath;
eeaa(n) thee peer chaaleaa, aaveaa ujadd vaatt....................7

The Peer issued his commands, having Vimras and Surbhan with him. The Peer left this place, and came on to a deserted path.

ejee maalavaa madhe aveaa, ane jeeaa(n) chhe vaagh no vevaar;
vaaghe aavee ru(n)dheeaa, am ne maa(n)s aalo saar.................8

He arrived in Malwa, where there was much traffic of tigers. A tiger came and stood in his path, saying: 'Give me a good piece of meat.'

ejee sat-gur shamas ochareaa, ane tame chho van naa raae;
am ne melo vaatte jaaee-e, pachhe tame van maa(n) jaav............9

The True Guide said: 'You are the lord of the forest. Leave me and let me be on my way, then you go back into the forest.'

ejee te same ek gaay aavee, ubhee peer ne paas;
see(n)h boleaa dayaa karee, have hu(n) gaae nu(n) khaau(n) maas..10

At that moment a cow came up and stood beside the Peer. The tiger said: 'If you graciously permit, I shall now eat the cow's flesh.'

ejee sat-gur shamas boleaa, am paase ubhe naam na levaae;
sarann aavee am tanne, tam thee na khaadhee jaae.................11

The True Guide Shams spoke: 'Do not even dare mention the name of the one who stands beside me. She has entered my protection, and is not to be eaten by you.

ejee bhagat ginaan boleaa, ane vaagh saa(n)bhale ekaa(n)t;
vaagh ne imaan aaveaa, taare melee gaae ni vaat..................12

The devotees uttered the teaching, and the tiger listened with close attention. The tiger was filled with faith, and then left the cow alone.

ejee see(n)he daso(n)d paratthee, ane ek van nee mukee vaat;
te van maa(n)he nathee jaataa, na kare utapaat...................13

The tiger contracted to pay the tithe, and it gave up the business of one forest-grove. It would not enter the forest, and did no mischief there.

ejee saavaj ne saan aavee, ane saa(m)bhalee gur naa ginaan;
te vaeeku(n)tth paameaa, aleaa gur-mukhe daan....................14

The tiger became enlightened, after attending to the Guide's teaching. It reached heaven, and made its offerings in the name of the Guide.

ejee sat-gur shamas bodheaa, evaa saavaj pa(n)khee jaann;
aaj gur vachane je chaalase, te thaase sahee niravaann...........15

The True Guide preached in this way to the wild beasts and birds. Those who proceed according to the word of the Guide today will assuredly be saved.

So you see even the wild beasts can attain heaven! So my question to you is that who was the manifestation of the command when there were no humans?

kmaherali wrote:

tret wrote:What about the non-humans today? Do Imams have duty to guide them too?

You will find your answer.


Remember, Imam guides murids to realize God through Intellect, by perfecting their[murid's] soul. Intellect is the light of Soul. Fish and animals don't have human intellect.

Yes the Imam has a relationship with them as well. Below is a Ginan which describes Pir Shams' encounter with animals in the jungle!

TEEAA(N) GURE GINAAN KAREAA - PEER SHAMSH

ejee teeaa(n) gure ginaan kareaa, ane kabutar kare bahu kodd;
gur am ne evo vataavajo, jaa(n) thee padde jeev nee suj...........1

There the Guide spread the teaching, and the pigeons were filled with great eagerness. 'O Guide, instruct us in the way through which awareness is granted to the soul.'

ejee peer shamas sat-gur nur chhe, ane neem paayo neeradhaar;
paarelaa paa(n)e laagee karee, ane bahu kare aradaas..............2

Peer Shams is the True Guide and the Light, and they received the rule from him forthwith. The doves fell at his feet, and offered many prayers.

ejee ek pagale teeaa(n) ubhaa raheaa, ane maleaa bahu tthaatth;
aasees aalee karee, gure dekhaaddee vaatt.........................3

They remained standing there upon one leg, joined in splendid array. Bestowing his blessings upon them, the Guide showed them the Way.

ejee kotharee kaa(n)dhe baa(n)dheaa, ane gure bataaveo bhed;
daso(n)d nu(n) daan dejo, to paap tamaaraa jaae chhed.............4

Humbly they tied bags on their shoulders, and the Guide told them the secret: 'If you give the offering of the tithe, your sins will be destroyed.

ejee nav paa(n)tee tamaaro bheerakh chhe, ane dasamo amaaro bhaag;
te tame raakhajo, je chhe amaaro laag.............................5

'Nine parts are for you to consume, and the tenth is our portion. Keep this carefully, for it is our due.'

ejee alap jeev aaraadheaa, valee kotharee laee raakhee kaa(n)dh;
teeaan jaaee so(n)pajo, jeeaa(n) padde tam ne saa(n)j.............6

The little creatures worshipped him, then took up their bags around their necks. 'Go there and hand it over, and you will be granted awareness there.'

ejee peere pharamaan aaleaa, ane vimaras surabhaan saath;
eeaa(n) thee peer chaaleaa, aaveaa ujadd vaatt....................7

The Peer issued his commands, having Vimras and Surbhan with him. The Peer left this place, and came on to a deserted path.

ejee maalavaa madhe aveaa, ane jeeaa(n) chhe vaagh no vevaar;
vaaghe aavee ru(n)dheeaa, am ne maa(n)s aalo saar.................8

He arrived in Malwa, where there was much traffic of tigers. A tiger came and stood in his path, saying: 'Give me a good piece of meat.'

ejee sat-gur shamas ochareaa, ane tame chho van naa raae;
am ne melo vaatte jaaee-e, pachhe tame van maa(n) jaav............9

The True Guide said: 'You are the lord of the forest. Leave me and let me be on my way, then you go back into the forest.'

ejee te same ek gaay aavee, ubhee peer ne paas;
see(n)h boleaa dayaa karee, have hu(n) gaae nu(n) khaau(n) maas..10

At that moment a cow came up and stood beside the Peer. The tiger said: 'If you graciously permit, I shall now eat the cow's flesh.'

ejee sat-gur shamas boleaa, am paase ubhe naam na levaae;
sarann aavee am tanne, tam thee na khaadhee jaae.................11

The True Guide Shams spoke: 'Do not even dare mention the name of the one who stands beside me. She has entered my protection, and is not to be eaten by you.

ejee bhagat ginaan boleaa, ane vaagh saa(n)bhale ekaa(n)t;
vaagh ne imaan aaveaa, taare melee gaae ni vaat..................12

The devotees uttered the teaching, and the tiger listened with close attention. The tiger was filled with faith, and then left the cow alone.

ejee see(n)he daso(n)d paratthee, ane ek van nee mukee vaat;
te van maa(n)he nathee jaataa, na kare utapaat...................13

The tiger contracted to pay the tithe, and it gave up the business of one forest-grove. It would not enter the forest, and did no mischief there.

ejee saavaj ne saan aavee, ane saa(m)bhalee gur naa ginaan;
te vaeeku(n)tth paameaa, aleaa gur-mukhe daan....................14

The tiger became enlightened, after attending to the Guide's teaching. It reached heaven, and made its offerings in the name of the Guide.

ejee sat-gur shamas bodheaa, evaa saavaj pa(n)khee jaann;
aaj gur vachane je chaalase, te thaase sahee niravaann...........15

The True Guide preached in this way to the wild beasts and birds. Those who proceed according to the word of the Guide today will assuredly be saved.

So you see even the wild beasts can attain heaven! So my question to you is that who was the manifestation of the command when there were no humans?

Wow, that's fascinating!

Come on, I hope you don't take these profound esoteric verses literal. I am sure there are more profound meaning than just take the words literal.

In Mantiq-ul-type of Att'ar, [Conference of Birds], this entire sufi book is about birds. So, should we start taking this literal and say, oh there was birds who set quest to becoming perfect.

Purpose of the creation is Man who has in essence the potential to become perfect, and that's the Intellect. Animals are lower rank with no intellect and is cause for man.

This is generalisation. I know of animals who have more intellect than some of the men we know.

tret wrote:Come on, I hope you don't take these profound esoteric verses literal. I am sure there are more profound meaning than just take the words literal.

In Mantiq-ul-type of Att'ar, [Conference of Birds], this entire sufi book is about birds. So, should we start taking this literal and say, oh there was birds who set quest to becoming perfect.

Purpose of the creation is Man who has in essence the potential to become perfect, and that's the Intellect. Animals are lower rank with no intellect and is cause for man.

The manifestation of the Ocean can indeed communicate with animals. MHI in the context of an individual Mehmani indicated that he knew the language of birds!!

MSMS during one of his visits to Africa went to visit his Jamat of elephants! It was during the time of Mukhi Suleman Verjee.

There is also reference of animals giving out their flesh to Pir Satgur Nur for his marriage to take place with Queen Palan De. It cannot be allegorical because it was a real incident. The entire Ginan can be referenced at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22761

Below are some anectdotes from Mowlana Rumi:

Rumi was walking by the moat around the edge of Konya when a group of students from a neighbouring college posed a question they thought would confuse him, "What color was the dog who slept in the cave with the seven sleepers?" Rumi's spontaneous answer was, "Light yellow. A lover is always pale with longing, as I am, and that dog was a lover." They followed along then asking questions that were less impudent.

***

Near the market, Rumi began talking to people in the late afternoon one day. A large crowd gathered, but as the sun went down and Jelaluddin kept discoursing, they wandered away. He went on into the night, until finally he was alone with a number of the town's stray dogs, who sat in a circle around him whining and wagging their tails. "You understand what I say,"he announced to his canine audience. "Men have condescended and called you 'dogs,' but from now on, let your species be known as the seven sleepers, because of that blessed group in the Qur'an, which included one of you."

Source: Say I Am You RUMI Poetry Interspersed with Stories of Rumi and Shamsh translated by JohnMoyne and Coleman Barks

You may want to go through the thread on Pets at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

Some highlights from the thread:

And dogs aren’t just good for the heart and soul: they may very well save your life. When I Googled the words "Dog saves" thousands of postings appeared. These included a Toy poodle whose barking alerted a sleeping Tennessee family to a house fire, a dog in the Philippines whose barking warned of an approaching landslide, a Golden retriever in New York who alerted a mother to her choking child, a Pit Bull in Alaska who saved a child from a burning home, and an Australian blue heeler in Florida who protected his injured guardian from an approaching alligator.

Dogs do great things for humans every day, even if it’s just being there for us when we get home. This is precisely why many people would choose a dog with a small brain over a human with no heart any day of the week.

****

When mistreated, dogs forgive. When ignored, they still love. When abandoned, they remain loyal. When neglected, they don't judge. They want for one thing only. To hear their human's voice, feel their human's touch, revel in the nearness of the person they love so unconditionally. Without prejudice, bias or discrimination, our canine companions epitomize the best of human nature. Or what human nature should be.

All of which leads me to believe there's a reason why it's often pointed out that dog is "God" spelled backwards. Because both deity and dog have traits we human beings should all aspire to resemble.

And we don't need a study to tell us that.

****
The most famous statue in Japan is arguably one of a dog

The most famous statue in Japan is arguably one of a dog, Hachiko, who exemplified loyalty, perseverance and duty. Hachiko met his owner at the train station when he returned from work each day, but the owner died at work one day in 1925 and never returned. Until he died about 10 years later, Hachiko faithfully went to the station each afternoon just in case his master returned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/opini ... emc=tha212

****
MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

The above statement does not imply that creation was entirely made for the purpose of Man. Other forms of life also have their relationship with God and have their role to play in creation. Hence, before Man other forms of existence had their relationship to the creator through the Manifestation in non-human forms.

Paramhansa Yogananda in his autobiography states:

"The telltale charts of my crescograph2 are evidence for the most skeptical that plants have a sensitive nervous system and a varied emotional life. Love, hate, joy, fear, pleasure, pain, excitability, stupor, and countless appropriate responses to stimuli are as universal in plants as in animals."

http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap8.php

Going back to your earlier statement which I quote below:

"God is not the reality who manifests, but rather the secondary reality [Command that is], in the Manifest Imam, as Perfect Man, Authoritative Instructor [The Lord, The Master."

I would like to point out that the role of the Command according to your POV is not restricted to guidance only but rather it is all encompassing. The Imam is the GurNar or ShahPir and performs two roles: on the one hand he is the Guide (Mursheed Kameel) and on the other he is the Master who creates, sustains and preserves the Universes.

Even if you consider the Imam's current activities, the time devoted to Tariqah practices is far less than his role of creating strong civil society acting as a model to sustain the social, economic, cultural and political aspects of society and hence stabilize it. And if you consider our history, the Imams generally did not perform the role of the Perfect Guide. That role has been assigned to the Pirs, Dais, Hujjats etc. In his capacity of the Master he may assume non-human forms to accomplish short term tasks as in the narrative of the Das Avtaars.

kmaherali wrote:

tret wrote:Come on, I hope you don't take these profound esoteric verses literal. I am sure there are more profound meaning than just take the words literal.

In Mantiq-ul-type of Att'ar, [Conference of Birds], this entire sufi book is about birds. So, should we start taking this literal and say, oh there was birds who set quest to becoming perfect.

Purpose of the creation is Man who has in essence the potential to become perfect, and that's the Intellect. Animals are lower rank with no intellect and is cause for man.

The manifestation of the Ocean can indeed communicate with animals. MHI in the context of an individual Mehmani indicated that he knew the language of birds!!

MSMS during one of his visits to Africa went to visit his Jamat of elephants! It was during the time of Mukhi Suleman Verjee.

There is also reference of animals giving out their flesh to Pir Satgur Nur for his marriage to take place with Queen Palan De. It cannot be allegorical because it was a real incident. The entire Ginan can be referenced at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22761

Below are some anectdotes from Mowlana Rumi:

Rumi was walking by the moat around the edge of Konya when a group of students from a neighbouring college posed a question they thought would confuse him, "What color was the dog who slept in the cave with the seven sleepers?" Rumi's spontaneous answer was, "Light yellow. A lover is always pale with longing, as I am, and that dog was a lover." They followed along then asking questions that were less impudent.

***

Near the market, Rumi began talking to people in the late afternoon one day. A large crowd gathered, but as the sun went down and Jelaluddin kept discoursing, they wandered away. He went on into the night, until finally he was alone with a number of the town's stray dogs, who sat in a circle around him whining and wagging their tails. "You understand what I say,"he announced to his canine audience. "Men have condescended and called you 'dogs,' but from now on, let your species be known as the seven sleepers, because of that blessed group in the Qur'an, which included one of you."

Source: Say I Am You RUMI Poetry Interspersed with Stories of Rumi and Shamsh translated by JohnMoyne and Coleman Barks

You may want to go through the thread on Pets at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

Some highlights from the thread:

And dogs aren’t just good for the heart and soul: they may very well save your life. When I Googled the words "Dog saves" thousands of postings appeared. These included a Toy poodle whose barking alerted a sleeping Tennessee family to a house fire, a dog in the Philippines whose barking warned of an approaching landslide, a Golden retriever in New York who alerted a mother to her choking child, a Pit Bull in Alaska who saved a child from a burning home, and an Australian blue heeler in Florida who protected his injured guardian from an approaching alligator.

Dogs do great things for humans every day, even if it’s just being there for us when we get home. This is precisely why many people would choose a dog with a small brain over a human with no heart any day of the week.

****

When mistreated, dogs forgive. When ignored, they still love. When abandoned, they remain loyal. When neglected, they don't judge. They want for one thing only. To hear their human's voice, feel their human's touch, revel in the nearness of the person they love so unconditionally. Without prejudice, bias or discrimination, our canine companions epitomize the best of human nature. Or what human nature should be.

All of which leads me to believe there's a reason why it's often pointed out that dog is "God" spelled backwards. Because both deity and dog have traits we human beings should all aspire to resemble.

And we don't need a study to tell us that.

****
The most famous statue in Japan is arguably one of a dog

The most famous statue in Japan is arguably one of a dog, Hachiko, who exemplified loyalty, perseverance and duty. Hachiko met his owner at the train station when he returned from work each day, but the owner died at work one day in 1925 and never returned. Until he died about 10 years later, Hachiko faithfully went to the station each afternoon just in case his master returned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/20/opini ... emc=tha212

****
MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

The above statement does not imply that creation was entirely made for the purpose of Man. Other forms of life also have their relationship with God and have their role to play in creation. Hence, before Man other forms of existence had their relationship to the creator through the Manifestation in non-human forms.

Paramhansa Yogananda in his autobiography states:

"The telltale charts of my crescograph2 are evidence for the most skeptical that plants have a sensitive nervous system and a varied emotional life. Love, hate, joy, fear, pleasure, pain, excitability, stupor, and countless appropriate responses to stimuli are as universal in plants as in animals."

http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap8.php

Going back to your earlier statement which I quote below:

"God is not the reality who manifests, but rather the secondary reality [Command that is], in the Manifest Imam, as Perfect Man, Authoritative Instructor [The Lord, The Master."

I would like to point out that the role of the Command according to your POV is not restricted to guidance only but rather it is all encompassing. The Imam is the GurNar or ShahPir and performs two roles: on the one hand he is the Guide (Mursheed Kameel) and on the other he is the Master who creates, sustains and preserves the Universes.

Even if you consider the Imam's current activities, the time devoted to Tariqah practices is far less than his role of creating strong civil society acting as a model to sustain the social, economic, cultural and political aspects of society and hence stabilize it. And if you consider our history, the Imams generally did not perform the role of the Perfect Guide. That role has been assigned to the Pirs, Dais, Hujjats etc. In his capacity of the Master he may assume non-human forms to accomplish short term tasks as in the narrative of the Das Avtaars.

Dear Kmaherali -
With all these scattered information, I think you are mixing the concept of incarnation with manifestation. To clarify this, please do the honor of describing the following two:

- what is incarnation?
- what is manifestation?

tret wrote:[With all these scattered information, I think you are mixing the concept of incarnation with manifestation.

How did you come to think like that? Have I mentioned incarnation in my post?

Brother K,

Didn't I told you earlier that you are wasting your time with this guy!??

tret wrote:We can certainly leave it at that. But you still owe me a POV, when/if you finished reading the article I posted.

Until then, you stick to your version of interpretation, and I stick with the version of our Hujjat's interpretation.

OK I have read the article. The article states:
"Thus, according to the ta’wil, these days do not concern the creation of the physical universe. They refer to the creation of a spiritual cosmos..."

I have a problem with the ta'wil because the verse clearly states:
Lo! Your Lord is God Who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Hence physical universe is also included!

My version includes the physical and spiritual world. The six paths give purpose and meaning to physical and spiritual worlds and hence complete them. I will stick to it

kmaherali wrote: I have a problem with the ta'wil because the verse clearly states:
Lo! Your Lord is God Who created the heavens and the earth in six days.
Hence physical universe is also included!

If we use logic, time [6 days in this context] is part of creation. Logically speaking, time is nothing but rotation of spheres and a measure of change. Until the spheres are not created, there is not time.

God says in the Qur'an [I supposed you do believe in the Qur'an] that Ours is a Command, God says 'Be' and there it is. Or similarly, God creates in a blink of an eye.

So the creation [of physical universe] has occurred spontaneously and instantaneously. Here in this verse of Qur'an, the creation [or rather evolution] of spiritual realm. Again, this Tah'wil is according to our great Dais and Hujjats [and remember Hujjats are transmitting knowledge of the Imam].

kmaherali wrote: My version includes the physical and spiritual world. The six paths give purpose and meaning to physical and spiritual worlds and hence complete them. I will stick to it

You are more than welcome to stick to it. I have absolutely no problem whatsoever.
However, you are comparing apples and oranges. Re-read carefully, you will see the difference.

There is no contradiction as Allah creates in Time and DIMENSIONS.

We are truly blessed to have this sentence told to us in a Farman by our Imam, these few precious words that open the door to another vision of the universe and of the creation and which explains a lot of things which otherwise would not be understood.

It can be heard in the audio-bookmark which came with the Golden Edition farmans, in the voice of the present Imam.