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Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ?
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d.ahmad



Joined: 16 Jan 2014
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:53 pm    Post subject: Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ? Reply with quote

Asalaam-o-Alaikum & Ya Ali (a.s.) Madad.

I've heard some people, especially my fellow 12ers, saying that Hazrat Adam (a.s.) was the first man on earth. I was under the impression that he was only the first prophet ... ? Which is correct? icon_confused.gif Hazrat Adam (a.s.) couldn't have been the first man because there is no set point when our pre-human ancestors became human (if you accept evolution which I do).

What is the Ismaili perspective on this issue? Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first Prophet or was he the first man?
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was first prophet.
And evolution theory is right.
As per ginanic sources this universe is 4.2 billions years old and do not surprise scientists also started to guessing that this universe is more than 4 billioms year old!
Dhekha piro ka kamal?
If you accept this evolution theory then you have to have believe that there must be humans living before H.Adam who was borned only 7000 years ago! as many scholars believe.
Is not this surprising you? Not me bro. Our ginans has all these and more information only thing you need to study it with interest.
I have not forget my open challenge which was placed 6 month ago! Can anybody in this forum tell me when this universe was created? Go ahead and dig your Qasidas, dig even Quran, Bible or any religious book you prefer but you won't find this information any where else but only in ginans. Period.
No wonder why mhi tells ginans as a wonderful tradition!!
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a_27826



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:


He was first prophet.

As per ginanic sources this universe is 4.2 billions years old

there must be humans living before H.Adam who was borned only 7000 years ago! as many scholars believe.



if true, then I wonder why would God send Prophets for only 6000 years out of 4.2 billion years

but God knows what we don't know
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a_27826



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ? Reply with quote

d.ahmad wrote:
Asalaam-o-Alaikum & Ya Ali (a.s.) Madad.

I've heard some people, especially my fellow 12ers, saying that Hazrat Adam (a.s.) was the first man on earth. I was under the impression that he was only the first prophet ... ? Which is correct? icon_confused.gif Hazrat Adam (a.s.) couldn't have been the first man because there is no set point when our pre-human ancestors became human (if you accept evolution which I do).

What is the Ismaili perspective on this issue? Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first Prophet or was he the first man?


Let me copy paste what an Ismaili posted in a Twelver site.

Prophet Adam and his wife Eve were two historical persons that lived at 4000 BC (6000 years ago). There were men and civilization on earth before them.

Along with the verse: And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know [2:30], this confirms that there were humans on the earth before Adam.

According to the Shiite Ismaili interpretation of this pre-Adamic verse, it is NOT the all-Powerful God who is addressing celestial angels, BUT RATHER, it is the last Imam-Qaim of the Cycle before ours who is addressing his EARTHLY angels.

The Imam placed his son Prophet Adam before the angels as his khalifa to institute a period of Shariat and Prophethood.

As for the beginning of mankind - modern humans evolved 60,000 years ago - the Universal Adam - the First Imam - appeared with his 27 companions on the island of Ceylon and inaugurated the primordial Imamate for mankind.

For more pre-Adamic information...check out the Hindu Scriptures and Hindu mythology.

The events of Ramayam (Shri Ram) and Mahabarata (Shri Krishna) are mythologies that are based on pre-Adamic (pre-4000 BC) events when humankind enjoyed an angelic state of innocence and spirituality.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
if true, then I wonder why would God send Prophets for only 6000 years out of 4.2 billion years


Good question brother

Before H. Adam ( 7000 ) years ago there were many prophets came but they are not recognized as prophet but known as 'AVATAR' .

For more information please read pir Sadardin and Syed Imamshah's ginans on the subject of 'das avatars"
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a_27826



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Quote:
if true, then I wonder why would God send Prophets for only 6000 years out of 4.2 billion years


Good question brother

Before H. Adam ( 7000 ) years ago there were many prophets came but they are not recognized as prophet but known as 'AVATAR' .

For more information please read pir Sadardin and Syed Imamshah's ginans on the subject of 'das avatars"


I am sorry, I think, I misunderstood you.

I thought you had said H. Adam ( 7000 ) was the first prophet and there have been humans before Him for some billion years before he was born


Last edited by a_27826 on Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a related discussion at:

How many Adam

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=40&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was first prophet.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not the billion years ago but most scholar believes that more than 14000 years ago mature human being evaluated.

But your question is about Avatars so lets concentrate on that.
Before dada Adam ( our pirs told him as Budha in Vishnapuri and many ginans) there were many civilizations already born and destroyed, if I talk about only Avatars ( INCARNATION) then there were 8 different avatar were already born before H. Adam, some well known names of these avatars as per ginans are:-

1,Lord Rama, many scholars believes that that mature human being born during Rama time . Rama was born more than 14000 years ago means there were human being before H. Adam.

2, -Lord Krishna he was born before Adam! and so on some avatars were not in human shape but as long as human being is concern then I can say human being was started during Rama time more than Adam's 7000 years.

Don't think this is a Hindu theory, yes their names are Hindu but this theory has been accepted many different religions and many western scholars too.
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a_27826



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Not the billion years ago but most scholar believes that more than 14000 years ago mature human being evaluated.

But your question is about Avatars so lets concentrate on that.
Before dada Adam ( our pirs told him as Budha in Vishnapuri and many ginans) there were many civilizations already born and destroyed, if I talk about only Avatars ( INCARNATION) then there were 8 different avatar were already born before H. Adam, some well known names of these avatars as per ginans are:-

1,Lord Rama, many scholars believes that that mature human being born during Rama time . Rama was born more than 14000 years ago means there were human being before H. Adam.

2, -Lord Krishna he was born before Adam! and so on some avatars were not in human shape but as long as human being is concern then I can say human being was started during Rama time more than Adam's 7000 years.

Don't think this is a Hindu theory, yes their names are Hindu but this theory has been accepted many different religions and many western scholars too.


so each cycle had its own Adam?

is a cycle = avatar ?

if so, then there were 10 adams for the 10 Avatars.
so how do account rest of the 49,990 adams?

or maybe there are many cycles in an Avatar ?
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tret



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:56 am    Post subject: Re: Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ? Reply with quote

a_27826 wrote:

According to the Shiite Ismaili interpretation of this pre-Adamic verse, it is NOT the all-Powerful God who is addressing celestial angels, BUT RATHER, it is the last Imam-Qaim of the Cycle before ours who is addressing his EARTHLY angels.

The Imam placed his son Prophet Adam before the angels as his khalifa to institute a period of Shariat and Prophethood.


I think when we claim something to be according to Ismaili doctrine, it's best to provide a [credible] reference. A reference is always appreciated.

Here are some questions:
- If there were humanity and Prophets/Imams pre-Adam, then why -- According to Islam -- there is no mention of it in the Book of God [Qur'an] ?

- If there were humanity and Prophets/Imams pre-Adam, then why -- According to Ismailies -- there is no mention of it in any teachings of Imams or Farameens, prior to Indo-Pak conversion to Ismailis, such as period of Fatimid/Pre-Fatimid, Alamut, etc... ?

I think there were life on earth prior to H Adam, in form of lower ranks of animal with less [or no] Intellect; however, the first Intelligible human with human Intellect was H Adam. I don't believe in theory of darwin that human race are the evolution of chimps. I believe human race is as unique and different like any other species, but with Intellect.

I am not sure if it's even possible [philosophically] to reconcile the hindu beliefs of pre-adamic prophecies and the one of Islamic, for simple reason that the entire foundation of all Abrahemic faith, such as Jew/Christian/Islam, etc... affirms H Adam as the first human and Prophet.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we Ismailis had recited 10 avtars not one not two not hundred but more than 650 years ! What other reliable or solid proof you still need for it?
Go and read OLD DUA composee by Pir Sadardin! and stop posting same garbade you posted many times before
Read Kalam e Imam e Mubin , read Tue khutba of Imam Hakim, imam Jaffer sadique.
Read the farmans of our 46 and 47 imams on das avatars
Read the ginans of Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin and Syed Imam Shah on the subjects of das avatars and then after come forward to debate.
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a_27826



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ? Reply with quote

tret wrote:

Here are some questions:
- If there were humanity and Prophets/Imams pre-Adam, then why -- According to Islam -- there is no mention of it in the Book of God [Qur'an] ?


do have a better explanation for 002:030 ?

And when your Lord said to the angels, 'I am setting in the earth a vicegerent.' They said, 'What, will You set therein one who will do corruption there, and shed blood, while We proclaim Your praise and call You Holy?' He said, 'Assuredly I know that you know not.'

how did angles knew humans are corruptive ?

is not a fair assumption that they had seen and known humans before Prophet Adam ?
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tret



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ? Reply with quote

a_27826 wrote:
tret wrote:

Here are some questions:
- If there were humanity and Prophets/Imams pre-Adam, then why -- According to Islam -- there is no mention of it in the Book of God [Qur'an] ?


do have a better explanation for 002:030 ?

And when your Lord said to the angels, 'I am setting in the earth a vicegerent.' They said, 'What, will You set therein one who will do corruption there, and shed blood, while We proclaim Your praise and call You Holy?' He said, 'Assuredly I know that you know not.'

how did angles knew humans are corruptive ?

is not a fair assumption that they had seen and known humans before Prophet Adam ?


I am not sure how do you draw the conclusion from this ayah?
assumption is fair, but is it implying that this ayah was sent before humanity?

In that case do you have a better explanation of this?


“Lo! Your Lord is God who created the heavens and the earth
in six days. Then He ascended the Throne…”
- Holy Qur’an 7:54
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a_27826



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ? Reply with quote

a_27826 wrote:
tret wrote:

Here are some questions:
- If there were humanity and Prophets/Imams pre-Adam, then why -- According to Islam -- there is no mention of it in the Book of God [Qur'an] ?


do have a better explanation for 002:030 ?

And when your Lord said to the angels, 'I am setting in the earth a vicegerent.' They said, 'What, will You set therein one who will do corruption there, and shed blood, while We proclaim Your praise and call You Holy?' He said, 'Assuredly I know that you know not.'

how did angels knew humans are corruptive ?

is not a fair assumption that they had seen and known humans before Prophet Adam ?


And another thing, the angles in 002:030 are responding to their Lord in almost human-like manner (doubting and questioning the Lord's decision)
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Admin



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is a great deal of mis-understanding that Das Avatar is fiction and was introduced to convert Hindus.

If this was true, it would be like saying that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) also twisted the Faith by trying to convert Christians and Jews by incorporating their believes into ours. This would be a complete nonsense!

This has been already discussed at lenght.

As for the minutes of the Paris Conference in 1975 signed by the Ismailia Association secretary Rupani (not by Hazar Imam) , Tret's interpretation has been denied by other people who were attending the 1975 Conference and there has not been any ban of any category and our Imam never approved any of this nonsense. The subsequence conferences and workshop that followed did clear the matter.

Rupani is known as unreliable and manipulative. In my opinion, at various occasions, he has circulated probably more lies in his life then what one could imagine being possible in one life. The source of a lot of the corruption in the ismaili world today can be traced to him.


The agenda pushed by Tret was at that time pushed by Pakistan Association which tried to hasty and without approval, print botched texts of ginans. Hazar Imam had told the conference to first write him what they meant by Hindu element in ginans. Something they were never able to submit to the Imam.

Then of course this would be like saying that when Imam Hakim declared in the presence of 10,000 people in Cairo a thousand years ago that he was the 10th Manifestation of God, he was trying to convert non-existent Hindus in Cairo.

Please do some research before posting as half knowledge is dangerous. Read what has already been said previously in this matter on this Forum.

So if one does not have info on Pre-Adam (subject of this thread) he should not feel obliged to write here. This section is to add to knowledge about that period, not to block knowledge on this matter. From now-on, any attempt to do that will just be deleted without warning. Thank you.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
Anyone can throw blanket reference; please quote or site exact referene. [No ginanic reference, as most of ginans that have rich hidu elements have been banned as category 3 by MHI already!]

MSMS in his Memoirs says:

" All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."

Stanley Jackson in his biography of MSMS states:

"In 1875 Sayyid Ahmad Khan had founded a Moslem College at Aligrah, but it was the Aga Khan who nourished it with money and started the 200,000 pounds fund required to translate the dream into reality.He was to make Aligrah develop in later years into a great university to which Moslems would come from all over the world. Sadly he recognised a people split by sects and a narrow parochialsm which could only be penetrated by the light of learning beyond religious teaching. It is noteworthy that he insisted on including Sanskrit and Hindu philosophy in the curriculum at Aligrah."

Why would the Imam insist on Sanskrit and Hindu philosophy if indeed it was of no value? Remember it was a Muslim University and there was no conversion involved!
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Old dua is old dua, that's why we don't recite it.


Quran is way old than old du'a why you still recite Quran??



Quote:
[No ginanic reference, as most of ginans that have rich hidu elements have been banned as category 3 by MHI already!]


Here is another lie from you CURRENT MHI OR ANY PAST IMAMS NEVER BANNED ANY GINANS ! AND I DO NOT KNOW WHO CATEGORIZED GINANS!!?? I think not MHI but may be some one else may be Hunzai!!icon_lol.gif you should study deep before making any black & white comments which does not have any solid back ground!
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:

If this was true, it would be like saying that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) also twisted the Faith by trying to convert Christians and Jews by incorporating their believes into ours. This would be a complete nonsense!


a) This analogy of yours is not related to what I was asking. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is one of the six Natiq who completed the message of previous Natiqeen. Like I said -- read my last statement at the end of my post -- all Abrahemic faiths, Jew/Christians attests and affirms the same Almighty Allah, and as such H Adam as first human and Prophet in the realm of spirituality. So, your analogy is not really relevant as Jew/Christians share the same foundation as Islam, where as hindus have different take and doctrine than Abrahemic faiths.

b) About the minutes of the conference, you said it was singed by ropani [sorry don't know the exact name], but what's even more important, it was chaired by MHI. So, to say that rupani/bawani/jiwani signed the minutes without MHI approval, is actually degrading MHI's status that has chaired the conference. Honestly, I don't even know of this person [ropani] and i am not interested to know either. I believe if that was the case, the leaders should have dealt with him.

c) Admin - My only agenda is to share and learn. If you mis-interpret and can't even tolerate a different stand of your own member of jama'at, is to say the whole preaching and teaching of our beloved MHI would be in vain on the topic of pluralism and tolerance. Why, do you only allow/accept those who subscribe to your way of thinking and reject who have different opinion? Then what would be the difference between you and other radicalist and extremists? Isn't this the purpose of these forums to share and learn and exchange ideas, be it different of the same?

d) Now, this is an interesting point you raised. I would be interested to hear more about Maulana Hakim be Amr-ullah. I would first, ask you to elaborate your understanding of "incarnation" and then tell us what do you make of when Imam Hakim says He is the 10 incarnation? [again a reference is appreciated]

e) I am amazed and at the same time frustrated by your slogan of 'half knowledge' and every most members keep shouting after you on this. What you say about 'half knowledge is dangerous' completely doesn't make sense at all. Allow me tell you what I think about knowledge. Knowledge is not an atomic factor that either you have it or don't, rather it is a perpetual and constant inquiry and acquisition that one continuely accumulate. There's no line to draw between zero knowledge/ half knowledge and complete knowledge. So, are you suggesting those who are in quest of finding the truth should not speak at all, because according to you they have 'half knowledge'? Let me give you an anecdote that I have given once, and I think it's relevant and help me make my point.

A man is at distance looking at dark far away and seeing a shining thing. He is at first convinced that that shining thing is a star. Now, he has 2 options. a) he can stay where he is and be convinced [wrongly] that the shining thing is a star. b) or he start the quest by getting closer and closer to the shining thing to find out if it is truly a star or something else. If he chooses option a, then he would never find out and will remain in ignorance. on the other hand if he chooses option b, then he would start walking towards the shining thing, and at some point as he is getting closer and closer, he would become certain that that shining thing is not a star but a burning flame. Now, again, he has 2 option. He can be either satisfied by what he has found out, b) or he would even continue further to get even closer to the burning flame. So, you know now that knowledge is actually our proximity to the divine. The closer we are to the Divine, the more knowledge we would have. Now, if this man walks towards the flame and reaches the flame, he would have a complete understanding of the nature of the flame. The distance/proximity wouldn't matter.

Every man's goal should be to get as close to the Divine as possible. I don't think you could draw the line as where is 'half knowledge' and where is 'full knowledge' as this is a perpetual quest.

lastly, Admin - I am amazed by your last comment. I have seen in this forum that Qur'an and the Prophet was insulted, and now you are threatening me to delete my posts for simply asking question or expressing my understanding, instead of correcting and providing reference to share and learn? Wow, you certainly are an example to other participants. It's like either my way or highway!.
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

MSMS in his Memoirs says:

" All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."


Dear kmaherali -

This is a very fine excerpt of beloved MSM, and it sends a very strong message of acceptance and pluralism. I don't think the question is about accepting that there are sages and wise people in other religions. I don't think anyone denies that. The question I believe is to, to which order do we subscribe? As Ismaili Muslim, I believe we gave our allegiance to the Imam of the Time. That doesn't mean we deny the existence of wise and sages in other religions. Each religion is like a path towards a destination. We are on our own path. To deny other paths don't reach the same destination would be of ignorance.


kmaherali wrote:

Stanley Jackson in his biography of MSMS states:

"In 1875 Sayyid Ahmad Khan had founded a Moslem College at Aligrah, but it was the Aga Khan who nourished it with money and started the 200,000 pounds fund required to translate the dream into reality.He was to make Aligrah develop in later years into a great university to which Moslems would come from all over the world. Sadly he recognised a people split by sects and a narrow parochialsm which could only be penetrated by the light of learning beyond religious teaching. It is noteworthy that he insisted on including Sanskrit and Hindu philosophy in the curriculum at Aligrah."

Why would the Imam insist on Sanskrit and Hindu philosophy if indeed it was of no value? Remember it was a Muslim University and there was no conversion involved!


Similarly, Al Azhar of Cairo founded by Fatimids was not restricted only to Ismailies [or Muslims], but it was open to all religions and school of thoughts. I don't think our faith is based on exclusion, but rather on inclusion, tolerance and pluralism.

Again, my question wasn't about sharing and learning, but rather following and subscribing. I am ready to learn from any religion, but that doesn't mean I do subscribe to them. As Maula Ali says don't hate what you don't know, as the greater part of knowledge is what you don't understand.
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

Quran is way old than old du'a why you still recite Quran??


If there was a new Qur'an, then we would be obliged to recite and follow new Qur'an. But that's not the case, is it? icon_biggrin.gif

That's why we are called Aullul-Amr.
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Was Hazrat Adam (a.s.) the first ____________ ? Reply with quote

a_27826 wrote:
a_27826 wrote:
tret wrote:

Here are some questions:
- If there were humanity and Prophets/Imams pre-Adam, then why -- According to Islam -- there is no mention of it in the Book of God [Qur'an] ?


do have a better explanation for 002:030 ?

And when your Lord said to the angels, 'I am setting in the earth a vicegerent.' They said, 'What, will You set therein one who will do corruption there, and shed blood, while We proclaim Your praise and call You Holy?' He said, 'Assuredly I know that you know not.'

how did angles knew humans are corruptive ?

is not a fair assumption that they had seen and known humans before Prophet Adam ?


And another thing, the angles in 002:030 are responding to their Lord in almost human-like manner (doubting and questioning the Lord's decision)


I would invite you to read this article and reflect your understanding, please.

http://www.iis.ac.uk/SiteAssets/pdf/Nas_Khus_sh_sach_2.pdf
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"In 1875 Sayyid Ahmad Khan had founded a Moslem College at Aligrah, but it was the Aga Khan who nourished it with money and started the 200,000 pounds fund required to translate the dream into reality.


Very interesting Kbhai in same token let me add one more similar event for your and other readers knowledge MSM had donated 100,000 Rs. ( ONE LAKH RUPEES) to Banaras Hindu Vishva Vidhyalay during the opening of this University and last time I heard that current MHI also donating same amount every year!!!!
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5866

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
what do you make of when Imam Hakim says He is the 10 incarnation? [again a reference is appreciated]



Yes you are right, as moderator of this Forum, I do have my own criteria on what has to be retained here for posterity and that is how most of the Forum work. Otherwise, I have been very tolerant of diverging opinions. I don't think you will deny this. Pirs and Imams' sayings are sacro-saint for me and I think I am well informed on those to make such decision.

I myself have witness a meeting where Hazar Imam gave strict instructions and once he was gone, the leaders present decided to do exactely the opposite of what Hazar Imam instructed. So I repeat again Rupani sgned the minutes of Paris Conference, not Hazar Imam. And the minutes were contested by other Ismailia Association subsequently.

I have used the word Manifestation and you have quoted me as using the word Incarnation. You will, I hope, understand that no debate is possible when people twist the words this way [the Rupani way] and so I am not going to pursue this discussion.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:

Yes you are right, as moderator of this Forum, I do have my own criteria on what has to be retained here for posterity and that is how most of the Forum work. Otherwise, I have been very tolerant of diverging opinions. I don't think you will deny this. Pirs and Imams' sayings are sacro-saint for me and I think I am well informed on those to make such decision.

Right, except when the Qur'an and Prophet (PBUH) is insulted as 'outdated', 'dead entities'; you seem very tolerant about those subjects, but I am being shown the sword for what I have asked? Show me -- please -- where have I dis-respected [or insulted] any Pir or Dai or Imams, unlike some other participants which I quoted their favorite keywords as an example!


Admin wrote:

I myself have witness a meeting where Hazar Imam gave strict instructions and once he was gone, the leaders present decided to do exactely the opposite of what Hazar Imam instructed. So I repeat again Rupani sgned the minutes of Paris Conference, not Hazar Imam. And the minutes were contested by other Ismailia Association subsequently.

Those who disobey what Maula says, they WILL be accountable one way or the other, sooner or later, and it would be just the matter of time, before they reap their harvest. It's clear that everyone object those category of people! Now, if you say the minutes of the conference is one example; well, I wouldn't know. But, that document is archived in this website!


Admin wrote:

I have used the word Manifestation and you have quoted me as using the word Incarnation. You will, I hope, understand that no debate is possible when people twist the words this way [the Rupani way] and so I am not going to pursue this discussion.

First, apologies for mis-quoting you, as I must have over-looked the wording of "incarnation" vs "manifestation". Please ignore my question in that case. And no name-calling or doing the blame-game! Certainly, not adding to your credibility!

But again, some participants [certainly not me] could interpret 'incarnation' and 'manifestation' the same way! Maybe it would be helpful giving your understanding of this topic? I am sure someone may benefit from it.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19309

PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:


a) This analogy of yours is not related to what I was asking. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is one of the six Natiq who completed the message of previous Natiqeen. Like I said -- read my last statement at the end of my post -- all Abrahemic faiths, Jew/Christians attests and affirms the same Almighty Allah, and as such H Adam as first human and Prophet in the realm of spirituality. So, your analogy is not really relevant as Jew/Christians share the same foundation as Islam, where as hindus have different take and doctrine than Abrahemic faiths.


When you say Hazarat Adam was the first human and prophet, do you mean that man has been for only 6000? What is the difference between Hindu and Abrahamic faiths in your opinion?
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
tret wrote:


a) This analogy of yours is not related to what I was asking. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is one of the six Natiq who completed the message of previous Natiqeen. Like I said -- read my last statement at the end of my post -- all Abrahemic faiths, Jew/Christians attests and affirms the same Almighty Allah, and as such H Adam as first human and Prophet in the realm of spirituality. So, your analogy is not really relevant as Jew/Christians share the same foundation as Islam, where as hindus have different take and doctrine than Abrahemic faiths.


When you say Hazarat Adam was the first human and prophet, do you mean that man has been for only 6000? What is the difference between Hindu and Abrahamic faiths in your opinion?


I am not an expert in Hindu religion, so I can't really compare; but for one, the prophecies of pre-Adam is one major differences.

According to all Abrahemic faiths in general, in more so according Islam and Ismaili in particular, the creation of the spiritual world [Not physical universe], as began with H Adam. Qur'an has a very clear reference on that.

“Lo! Your Lord is God who created the heavens and the earth
in six days. Then He ascended the Throne…”
- Holy Qur’an 7:54

And according to Ismaili philosophers, these six days represent six major cycles of Natiqeen from Adam to Mohammad (PBUH).

So to say there existed prophecies pre-Adam, is to indirectly imply that all 124000 messengers and our Imams all got it wrong?

This is one thing that I have hard time reconciling. Please I'd love to hear your argument on that!
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So to say there existed prophecies pre-Adam, is to indirectly imply that all 124000 messengers and our Imams all got it wrong?


Bas dikha di na apani aukat, aa gaye na apni line pe!!!??

You must heard this idiom ' IF YOU KEEP DOG TAIL STRAIGHT UNDERNEATH GROUND EVEN MORE THEN YEAR BUT IT CAN NOT BECOME STRAIGHT . this idiom exactly fits to you.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19309

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:

I am not an expert in Hindu religion, so I can't really compare; but for one, the prophecies of pre-Adam is one major differences.


tret,

What are the prophecies of pre-Adam in Hinduism?

tret wrote:

According to all Abrahemic faiths in general, in more so according Islam and Ismaili in particular, the creation of the spiritual world [Not physical universe], as began with H Adam. Qur'an has a very clear reference on that.

“Lo! Your Lord is God who created the heavens and the earth
in six days. Then He ascended the Throne…”
- Holy Qur’an 7:54

And according to Ismaili philosophers, these six days represent six major cycles of Natiqeen from Adam to Mohammad (PBUH).


That would imply that man has existed for only about 6000 years! People will laugh at you if you said that in today's age.

tret wrote:

So to say there existed prophecies pre-Adam, is to indirectly imply that all 124000 messengers and our Imams all got it wrong?

This is one thing that I have hard time reconciling. Please I'd love to hear your argument on that!


Are you saying that 124, 000 messngers existed within 4000 years! Don't you think that is ridiculous?

MSMS says: 'for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed'. Where are the thousands of years?

MSMS has told us that the tafsir of the Quran is in the Ginans. If you study the Ginans, you will get your answers.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
MSMS has told us that the tafsir of the Quran is in the Ginans. If you study the Ginans, you will get your answers.



Exactly! that is what I am trying to tell everyone in this forum since I joined in it, if you have questions then ginans has answer for you! go and find it.
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