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Meaning needed
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MR-FORGET



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Meaning needed Reply with quote

While reading ginan I can not understand the meaning of these two words, can anybody help?
1, Chilotaro,
2, Satsar.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the only person in this forum can give you answer of your above question is Nuseri! (?) So, why do not you ask this to him directly? Don"t you know that he hold PHD digree to give wrong meaning of ginans!???? icon_lol.gif
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean Chilotero Chamchar? The date of the Aswari? People are looking for this date since the begining of time icon_wink.gif
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These two words used to belongs to an "old Gujarati language" which was once in use and spoken in Indo subcontinents, (including in Sind, Pakistan), more than 300 hundred years ago but it is not in use any more as per 'OLD GUJARATI DICTIONARY' which I have.
To make sure this, I also checked the meaning in other dictionaries of Prakrit and Sanskrit as well, good thing is that they all have same meaning.

Chilotaro: means "Chaitra" months in Vikram Smvat ( calendar) a Hindu calendar which is still in use but very rarely. ( matter of fact today is new year as per this calendar) there is another meaning of chilotaro = Bird.
Chhamchhar:- I think this word is not real word, it should be chamchar or "Sanvstsar' means "year" .

Look like Admin is right, it is some thing about the month and year , or the date of future prediction, it would had been nice if you had put the all verses of that ginan!.


Last edited by agakhani on Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:57 am, edited 2 times in total
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
These two words used to belongs to an "old Gujarati language" which was once in use and spoken in Indo subcontinents, (including in Sind, Pakistan), more than 300 hundred years ago but it is not in use any more as per 'OLD GUJARATI DICTIONARY' which I have.
To make sure this, I also checked the meaning in other dictionaries of Prakrit and Sanskrit as well, good think is they all have same meaning.

Chilotaro: means "Chaitra" months in Vikram Smvat ( calendar) a Hindu calendar which is still in use but very rarely. ( matter of fact today is new year as per this calendar) there is another meaning of chilotaro = Bird.
Chhamchhar:- I think this word is not real word, it should be chamchar or "Sanvstsar' means "year" .

Look like Admin is right, it is some thing about the month and year , or the date of future prediction, it would had been nice if you had put the all verses of that ginan!.


You are right Agakhani.
This is referring to a date in the vikram calendar. I believe the ginan also contains an astrological configuration yet to happen - which will be the sign of the end of kaljug and of aswari.

Shams
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you please put words in which verses of Ginan they are placed.
and also the Ginan in whole as to understand the context.
the first word how it is written n pronounced as well in Gujarati is important.
I do not know much of gujrati language
if the word is chiliotaro or to be read as chelotaro.
on the face value it may indicate the last star.
as even Sun is a Star on whom life of earth depend.
as in Baatin one can relate pole star to Ahle bayt.
I presume pole star mean Dhruv tara in hindi/gujrati.
This is just on the face value of the word written on standalone basis.
or it could be a name of a particular star on stand alone basis.
Please give the whole Ginan to understand its meaning n reasoning if any in it.
I just bought my first Ginan book 2 month back to post the Gujarati wordings correctly as written it in my two earlier posts on it.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am pretty sure that, that ginanic verses( if Mr-Forget put here), will be not about any stars as you think! it will be not for Kutub Tara, Dhruv Tara, Saptarshi tara or Arundhavati tara, but it will be 100% about some kind future prediction month and year ( and may be date) as Shams, Admin and I believe. So stop "day dreaming " right now because it will put you in laughing situation again and stop giving wrong meaning. This is my advise to you and I already told you that if you do not know the meaning of any ginanic verses keep your mouth shut but don't give wrong meaning?
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe Pirs may have exceeded their brief as NO prophet or sagas of the past has predicted doomsday,which can only n only will of ALI,n not a Pir
to give,suggest or order a date to ALI ,when to end the world,MY FOOT.

One late Alwaez took Khojas as ignorant in sermons that gave the dates.
I wish to see the the whole Ginan in the post.
I have purposely entered this topic to know braying n barking of Zahiri
interpreters.
A Ph D in Sanskrit is driving a rickshaw for living in Uttar Pradesh,India as there was article in newspaper.
Ph D in vernacular language of a third world country n may be of adubious university is reflected in your posting n work/job u are doing in Austin.

PLEASE POST THE GINAN FOR READING.
why should one scarred by it?
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
I am pretty sure that, that ginanic verses( if Mr-Forget put here), will be not about any stars as you think! it will be not for Kutub Tara, Dhruv Tara, Saptarshi tara or Arundhavati tara, but it will be 100% about some kind future prediction month and year ( and may be date) as Shams, Admin and I believe. So stop "day dreaming " right now because it will put you in laughing situation again and stop giving wrong meaning. This is my advise to you and I already told you that if you do not know the meaning of any ginanic verses keep your mouth shut but don't give wrong meaning?


so ginans are more credible than Farameens and Qur'an ayas now?
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SMS said there is no difference between Ginans and Farmans, they are the same. Are you going to contradict our Imam?

First you should start learning the relation of the Imam with his Hujjat-ul-Imam, the Pir. Today, as per the Will of SMS, Shah Karim is the Imam and Pir of all Ismailis.

So the rule that apply to the Noorani family criticism here is the same that applies to the criticism of our Pir of all Ismailis and the Noor -e- Piratan. I hope I will not have to repeat this twice.

There are other web site were degrading the Imam and degrading the Pir is acceptable. This is not one of those.

Admin
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
so ginans are more credible than Farameens and Qur'an ayas now?
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Nobody can denied that Farmans and Quranic ayas are not credible! but Ismaili ginans was composed for those peoples who could not understand Quranic ayas during pirs ara, and it was necessary for pirs to preach them in their languages, therefore pirs has composed ginans in their languages.
By the way SMS also clarified many times that ' GINANS ARE TAFSIR OF QURAN AND THOSE PEOPLES WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND ARABIC SHOULD READ GINANS".

In my thinking yes, ginans have more information in comparison with Quran, you can find informations on almost every subjects not only future predictions but almost every subjects, when this earth will be destroy, how it will destroy? what happen after Zahurat? how Imam will kill 'DAINT KALING" enemy of God? what is the name of the Imam during Zahurat? which # of Imam will be do that? Where zahurat will be start? how it will be ended? what year it will be? what day will be? and which month will be you can find all these information in ginans, but sorry, I do not have any intention to start that old debate here again whether Quran is complete or not, it is out dated or not!? you have to read ginans to find out about above information, or you can e-mail me if you need more information.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A Ph D in Sanskrit is driving a rickshaw for living in Uttar Pradesh


That is in India, but don't forget I am living in USA,( Astagafirullah,Allah muje maaf kare for my this saying cuz it is call self proud/Magruri/Abhiman but I have to say this for a foolish person name Nuseri) if I tell you how much money I make per month? what car I am driving?, how luxuries house I owned? and what is my bank balance is? then you won't believe it as your old habit !!!! so forget it.

Quote:
I believe Pirs may have exceeded their brief as NO prophet or sagas of the past has predicted doomsday,which can only n only will of ALI,n not a Pir
to give,suggest or order a date to ALI ,when to end the world,MY FOOT.



If you claim your self as an Ismailis then shame to you for using above words about Ismailis pirs, shame to you. and yes Ismaili pirs has predicted about every things. would not like to know it? then read
ginans in this matter, I believe "ALI" will not come to help you, unless you aske MHI! but voh tere bas ki baat nahi.


Last edited by agakhani on Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
I am still waiting too see Ginan on prediction with word mentioned.
why nobody is posting it a simple request.

Imam/God can be a Pir but a Pir cannot be a Imam /God.
They are mortal human being blessed with Noorani Hidayat

Even Prophets made mistake so the Pirs appointed or recognized by the Imam are not Immune to It.

Is is sad that Khojas have equated Pir to be same as Imam n giving till
last 600 years more weight age to Ginans than Frmans of the Imam for thier process of spirituality.

Giinans of Pirs are part of our traditions,recently MHI in Mumbai the very first lines he said he bringing in change in our traditions.

There were may be(my personal study) shortcoming of the Pirs of Khojas.there are many of them .I will just point out three fo them.
1.They spend much time in composing Ginans (1000 of them),they same time is used for physical preaching then would have resulted in more
Khojas today.
2.They raised the Dasond in a poor region of low rainfall/income from 10% to 12.5%.the 2.5% was to cover their Pirantan expenses.This led to many
to leave our fold is last 700 years misunderstanding its concept n spirituality.
3.They over exceeded their brief,If at all wrote on Doomsday date.
If you noticed that many Ginans are simple to understand with also may dates or day somewhere written in simple Gujarati.
SO WHY THE PREDICTION DATE IN A HIGH COMPLEX WORDING,YET TO BE FULLY DECODED?
The answer is as they were exceeding their brief.It was Noorani Hidayat of ALI in them which compelled them to use words which would sound greek/tamil or out of the space for generations to come.
ALI did play a role in those lines or verses to be not understood tll Qiyamat.
Khojas do carry unwarranted burden of traditions,if any short comings is observed and bought to notice in an objective n holistic manner.
IT IS NOT DISRESPECTING PIRS OR THE IMAM.
Rather such information does help many Alwaez n students of IIS the
360 degrees angles of Pirantan.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you need to get some knowledge on the subject. Pir are not for Khojahs, you are completely mistaken. We are not going to restart the discussion here. Please search on Forum and read on keyword Imam Mustawda, Ujjat ul-Imam, Will of Sulan Muhammad Shah. Once you understand the relation between the Noor of Imamat and the Noor of Piratan we will discuss in another thread.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Admin:
Sorry I erred in wordings as 'Pirs of Khojas's is Pirs recognized and appointed by the Imam to propagate true faith in semi arid region of indian sub continent and he believers who were inspired to the faith are commonly known as Khoja sub sect/traditions of Ismaili.
Human biengs even from Ahle Bayt as Pirs are not equal or greater than Imam.
In legal parlance it was so any mortal recognized as Pir could claim to as rightful Imam upon death of Imam if your belief is taken in totality.
Noor of Pir can/is the same level of 7 th intellect of a Prophet whose lineage
could be linked n co related where Noorani Hidaya is concerned,
ALI/God/Imam., He is much much greater in Intellect n thier source even if 313 combined total of Pirs/rasikfulilms were living on earth at same time.
They would if at all be able to understand may be 25% of Quran.

Please note Pir word used for Imam and a Momins recognized or appointed by Imam as a Pir is not the SAME person or two powerhouse.

A Pir does have even a simple POWER to delay sunrise or stop waves in an Ocean for even 15 minutes,while Imam it can be his wish/will.
Anyway certain Pirs who composed Ginans with their names written in it
in generalized and common sense level are still very much called 'Pirs of Khojas'.
It may debatable at rational/Intellect level n academics if it.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 497

PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:-

"Imam/God can be a Pir but a Pir cannot be a Imam /God.
They are mortal human being blessed with Noorani Hidayat "


what happen to u nuseri u r thy one who started debate on ALI ALLAH thats good but now u r doing bad...plzz read wat I wrote.

PIR=MUHAMMAED=GOD
IMAM=ALI=GOD
PIR SHAH=GOD
SHAH PIR=GOD

I know a incident that Imam shah hassan ali give money or gold or amount of dasond(i dont know exactly) to thy mukhi(i forgot his name) and Imam said to mukhi that dont give that amount to any one.after somedays Pir Shah Ali shah(at that time he was pir) came to mukhi and said to him give me that money and mukhi give that money to Pir. after somedays Imam came and angrily said to mukhi to whome u give the money" mukhi replied I give money to you. then Imam said him dont lie becuz u donot give money to me Imam beat him with hunter but he was repeatedly said i give money to u.""then Imam became happy and said yes u give money to me and Imam said u r true momin becuz u do not make difernce btween Imam and Pir..."""

I think this story teaches u alot

NUSERI u r thy true lover of ALI

BUT

agar sirf baap se pyar karte raho ge to maa se door ho jao ge and vice versa..
is hy liye dono se pyar kerte raho sukhi raho ge....
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Ismaili 103:
You got carried away with word standalone word PIR n n two words 'Shah Pir' use by Pirs in Ginans to define the Imam.
I want to answer from you IS
a) Pir=God
B) Can appointed Pir from believers claim to the chair of Imamat upon death of a Imam.
PLEASE ANSWER IT,NO IF,BUT,THEN
That is my point of debate.
Pirs have also erred in Ginans,I can prove that also.
I just do not want to see blindly 'what= what' because of your level of thinking.
All the stories are mostly hear say unless properly documented.
Al waez's have taken lot of advantage of hear say stuff,instead of explaining of quality Baatin meaning of our faith material already available to us.

Please do not assume Pirs are God,as Allah has no partner.
you will be misled in your conviction by mixing up the status
of appointed Pirs and Imam/ALI/God.
Even Mohamed=God is absolutely WRONG
People may call you ignorant/insane for that conviction.
Even status of appointed Pirs and Mohammed(pbuh) are not the same,They have same qualitative preaching skill set of truth(Noor) from the same source ALI.

'ALI 'HAMARE MAI BAAP DONO HAI
AUR AASHIQUE US PAR TAGHDI HAI HAMARI.

Aap bhi ab Abuali khatara gaadi chordo aur
ALI ALI ki Limousine me aa bhi jao.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Even Prophets made mistake so the Pirs appointed or recognized by the Imam are not Immune to It.


How you can say that!!? can you give any example that prophet had made any mistakes?
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read the story of Khizr.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 497

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri bhai ya ali madad.

PIR is appointed from thy family of IMAM.

ok now its time to chat wid u in ur way of chating.plzz give me the answer of this question

Q)u love whom frm ur parents??

a)father
b)mother
c)both

Q)what did u think ur father is higher in status then ur mother and vice versa???

a)father is higher in status
b)mother """"""""
c)both are equal.

plzzz give the answer first.... icon_smile.gif
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
plzzz give the answer first.... icon_smile.gif


Before he gives you unbelievable and unacceptable answer, let me warn you, Shinan,
Aap Behre (deaf person) ke Aage Gana Sunane ja rahe ho! so your efforts will be ended fruitless, no doubt about that.

Don't you know that you are going to explain that guy who do not believe in Ginans and piratan concept at all!!! and still claiming his self as an Ismaili!!? ( Shame to him) and also have one sided thinking habit and who never learned to accept his mistakes! even you prove him 1000 times wrong!!!,

[b]Do you know!! what he wrote in his very first post? I am pasting here but you have to tolerate his "1st graders" English and many grammatical mistakes.

Code:
I am ardent listner of both.the observations,i have noted are.
ginans were composed from vedic background by pirs from granth,vedas,gita,garbi etc.it revolves around it n comes to haqiti essecence after few verses.It was very much needed at that time n circumstances.
while qasidas have qurani n hadees back ground.
qasidas were bought to mainstream for ismailies fm indian origin few years before silver jubilee.both r NOOR by itself.
we are now ismailies with strong faith n rational sense.I feel qasiidas are more inspiring as it tries to move r souls from haqiqat to marifat level.
over 7 pirs over 750 years have got over 3.5 lacs into satpanth of today khoja ismaili.While one r more Dai over 1050 years has inspired around 20 million Isimailies living today.
please expand on thisread


As per his above comments, you can see that he gives more important to Qasidas rather then ginans! , he also believes that ginans are not necessary right now but it was necessary before!!! but Qasidas are important when the reality is Qasida has no detail information on various subjects like ginans have, it is only written to praise king, big Aalims and Allah.
Good Luck!
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Ismaili103:
Please answer to question of reasoning not shy away.
In today times the child may like his father or mother more depending upon
which one loves n pamper him/her more.

In mordern times of today families with step children,you can also have have children hating their parents.

In case of Imam,as it is both so There is no status of one over other as
ALI is one entity for many and for me.

you are getting confused in evaluating the sexual genders of Pirs and Imam by virtue of your statements.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Agakhani:
You are again with your rubbish cunningness.
I do have answer other than story of' Khizer.'

BEFORE that none of you 3 of the Pandavs,it would be better if you 3 may called as 3 crooks,who are just not posting the Ginans ,which is printed and are in public domain.

U ALL ARE SCARED OF 100% TRUTH.
MARD BAN KE BEHES KARO,NAHI KE BURKHE ME CHUP KAR HAMARI GIBAT.

Please do not participate compulsively if you cannot post/quote the Ginan you all referring in the post.

Is 'Mr Forget' your old support ID?,His postings need to be checked, in co relation with yours,as you carry many stinking Avataar in this website.

Some of the bloggers are attached to the memories of a late Al Waez,who was suspended for his Indiscipline,It was the forgiveness n Almighty Grace of MHI that he did not get dismissed n his title withdrawn.
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 497

PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
To Ismaili103:
Please answer to question of reasoning not shy away.
In today times the child may like his father or mother more depending upon
which one loves n pamper him/her more.

In mordern times of today families with step children,you can also have have children hating their parents.

In case of Imam,as it is both so There is no status of one over other as
ALI is one entity for many and for me.

you are getting confused in evaluating the sexual genders of Pirs and Imam by virtue of your statements.


chalo nuseri bhai choro is debate ko yahi khatam karo jaisa agakhani bhai ne kha aap k liye ek baat kehnaa chata hu

"Ali rehmaan to sab per ha lekin rahim bhot kam pr jis din wo aap per rahim hojae gaa us din aap haqiqat samajh jao ge"

or haan nuseri bhai ek murda insaan ko to bura bhala mat bolo...
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read what you lied about our pirs!?

Code:
Lie # 1 -Even status of appointed Pirs and Mohammed(pbuh) are not the same,


As per Ismailis faith and belief Ismailis pirs is equal to Prophet Mohammed and Prophet Mohammed was our first pir!. you crazy guy do not know that!!

Lie # -2 [b]
Code:
[/b]Even Prophets made mistake so the Pirs appointed or recognized by the Imam are not Immune to It.


I asked you give me any example which shows that prophets had made mistakes, why you kept silence because you do not know that, right!!

LIe # 3
Code:
A Pir does have even a simple POWER to delay sunrise or stop waves in an Ocean for even 15 minutes,while Imam it can be his wish/will.


Don't you know that pir Shams called the sun on earth!?Don't you know that pir Shams give new life to the son of King in Multan who was dead!? "PIR NE Murda zinda kiya tha" Don't you know that pir Satgur Noor made idols dance? In Patan. need more?

Lie# 4
Code:
in generalized and common sense level are still very much called 'Pirs of Khojas'.


This shows you know nothing about Ginan and Piratan.

Read what Ismaili103 wrote about you?
"what happen to u nuseri u r thy one who started debate on ALI ALLAH thats good but now u r doing bad...plzz read wat I wrote. "

Lot happened to him, he is became crazy and he just got out of track, being an Ismaili throwing garbage against our pirs, (Shame to him), I agree with Admin, "he needs to learn more before come to challenge any one!",Pehle Apne Giraban Me Dekh, apne Gireban Me" aour Zudh bolna bandh kar, wrong meaning dena band kar.

"Nuseri, Nuseri kya karta hai?, Tu Nuseri ke Zute ke dhul bhi nahi!.
Himat Ho to marke dikha, Varna Chullu bhar pani me dub mar, hame iska koi gam nahi"


Last edited by agakhani on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5810

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is some people do not understand the difference between Mowlana Ali and Mowlana Jallaluddin Rumi, the difference between Imam Hussein and the Imams of the Masjid, the difference between Pir Hassan (brother of Imam Hussein) and Pir Nasir Khusraw.

The link between Imam Mustakar and Imam Mustawda, the link between the Imam and the Hujjat ul Imam is very well explained by Imam Mustansir Billah in Pir Pandiyat-i Jawanmardi)

A little research would show that Shah Karim is Pir of ALL Ismailis and not only of Khojas in the same manner, a little research would show that there were no Pirs which were of Khoja origin, only of Arabs, Persians and Turkish origins.

It is just a matter of reading in other threads, those subjects have already been discussed at length. I understand that there are too many subjects but there is also a SEARCH button (below the red message "Welcome to The Heritage Web Site" and it can take directly to those discussion. Please everyone, inform yourself instead of opening new duplicate threads. Thanks
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
The problem is some people do not understand the difference between Mowlana Ali and Mowlana Jallaluddin Rumi, the difference between Imam Hussein and the Imams of the Masjid, the difference between Pir Hassan (brother of Imam Hussein) and Pir Nasir Khusraw.

The link between Imam Mustakar and Imam Mustawda, the link between the Imam and the Hujjat ul Imam is very well explained by Imam Mustansir Billah in Pir Pandiyat-i Jawanmardi)

A little research would show that Shah Karim is Pir of ALL Ismailis and not only of Khojas in the same manner, a little research would show that there were no Pirs which were of Khoja origin, only of Arabs, Persians and Turkish origins.

It is just a matter of reading in other threads, those subjects have already been discussed at length. I understand that there are too many subjects but there is also a SEARCH button (below the red message "Welcome to The Heritage Web Site" and it can take directly to those discussion. Please everyone, inform yourself instead of opening new duplicate threads. Thanks


Thank you Admin.

I would suggest Nuseri read something written by Nasir Khusraw - translated by Ivanow - which thoroughly establishes the status of the Pirs (Imam-Mustawada).
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/1077

Whilst Nuseri is more than welcome to practice his understanding of Ismailism - i don't think it is right that anyone shoves their interpretation down the communities throat - we maybe oldfashioned and follow the Ginans- but the Imam himself has said - Ginans are our wonderful tradition, Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah has said - if you follow the ginans - I will not need to make farmans.
The Pirs in the ginans have said - Ginan mahe to Saaheb che;
unlike the Ginans and the Farmans - very few of the Qasidas were written by Imams al Mustawda or by people from Ahle Bayt - I am not aware of any except those by Shams Tabrez.

You have hit the nail on the head Admin - that a lot of us lack the necessary knowledge and understanding of the position of the Pir (Imam Al Mustawda) in comparison to the title of Pir (teacher/elder).

I also feel that Nuseri may feel the indian heritage inferior to the tajiki or the other traditions and thus wants to change/evolve towards that; however I don't think we have enough of a grasp of our own heritage or culture in order to be able to do that.

Shams

FYI - from Texas!
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Admin



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no doubt Qasidas of Imam Nizar and Imam Abdus Salam have the same status as the Farmans of Imam. These are rare Qasidas with we value most.

But Qasidas written in 1960 by some non-Khojah Bhagat are at the same level as Mowla Ji Shan Geets writtenin 1960 by Khoja Bhagat.
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad:
Good to see the trio on their toes.
I wish to read n see the actual Farman of Imam SMS,whether he said the
follow or 'UNDERSTOOD'( the baatin) of Ginans.
Khojas have have take mortal Pirs(teachers) as wordS of GOD.
I have requested earlier n this is the fourth time that ,please post the Ginan with the word of the Topic.
It is very much needed to to understand n debate your convictions of those words.
'Pir' word has great significant at Tariqat level,I presume most bloggers here are beyond that level. where even status is Imam=Allah.at that level one cannoT spilt the NOOR, at Tariqat level one can understand
as fatherly 'affection' n motherly 'love' for two level of emotions n teaching.

As I understand from U3 word being dates of Doomsday.

That one fine day Pir got up enjoying his share of Pirantan offering.
writes an EXECUTIVE ORDER of ending the whole human race on earth
with precise date ,a death warrant n order to followed by his
servant/staff ALI/God to execute it on that very minute.
HAA HAA HAA.
All writing of Pirs is humble submission or petition or praise to ALI n
NOT an order n binding advice( as his servant/else) to end the world.

I am sad to see educated Haqiqati not able differentiate between Doomsday n Zahurat .

If any dates of Zahurat are to BE assumed ,It is there is sermon of Imam of Alliah zikr Salaam,where Imam as Allah address the 'humans angels n Jinns'
usually Imam address the listeners present as nowadays as Spiritual Children to Ismailis.

Please reply objectively to above.

ALI KI VAKALAT LIYA JOO, KKHABI BHI HAAR MANUNGA NAHI.
HAQIQATI KO MAFRAT KI KYA SAMAJ?

I do have an answer of GRAVE mistakes.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali madad:
Good to see the trio on their toes.
I wish to read n see the actual Farman of Imam SMS,whether he said the
follow or 'UNDERSTOOD'( the baatin) of Ginans.
Khojas have have take mortal Pirs(teachers) as wordS of GOD.
I have requested earlier n this is the fourth time that ,please post the Ginan with the word of the Topic.
It is very much needed to to understand n debate your convictions of those words.
'Pir' word has great significant at Tariqat level,I presume most bloggers here are beyond that level. where even status is Imam=Allah.at that level one cannoT spilt the NOOR, at Tariqat level one can understand
as fatherly 'affection' n motherly 'love' for two level of emotions n teaching.

As I understand from U3 word being dates of Doomsday.

That one fine day Pir got up enjoying his share of Pirantan offering.
writes an EXECUTIVE ORDER of ending the whole human race on earth
with precise date ,a death warrant n order to followed by his
servant/staff ALI/God to execute it on that very minute.
HAA HAA HAA.
All writing of Pirs is humble submission or petition or praise to ALI n
NOT an order n binding advice( as his servant/else) to end the world.

I am sad to see educated Haqiqati not able differentiate between Doomsday n Zahurat .

If any dates of Zahurat are to BE assumed ,It is there is sermon of Imam of Alliah zikr Salaam,where Imam as Allah address the 'humans angels n Jinns'
usually Imam address the listeners present as nowadays as Spiritual Children to Ismailis.

Please reply objectively to above.

ALI KI VAKALAT LIYA JOO, KKHABI BHI HAAR MANUNGA NAHI.
HAQIQATI KO MAFRAT KI KYA SAMAJ?

I do have an answer of GRAVE mistakes.


Nuseri as I said - you are free to believe and follow what you want to;.

You've been pointed to the farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - the best place to start is Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubeen.

You've also been directed to read the writings of Dai Nasir-e-Khusraw (read my post above).

You can choose to pursue to read it and gain further understanding of the status of Imam Mustawda and Imam Mustakir - thus you continue to mock the ginans and the Pirs - the dates we talk about are of Zahurat - not of Doomsday - that you also demonstrate that you've failed to understand.

The Prophet is recognized as our First Pir - are you now equating him those that wrote the Qasidas?

Once again - you need not believe what we say - or what we believe - you are more than welcome to believe what you want to - but please don't shove it down our throats.

To me - my bayat is to the Pir - who has promised to lead me to the Imam.
Without the Pir - there is no Imam.


"Guru Gobind Dono Khade, Kaku Laage Paaiye
Balihari Guru Aapki, aapki Govind Diyo Baataye"

You maybe be blessed with direct access to the Imam; I am not..thus my conduit is the Pir.

Shams
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