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84 lakh!
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mehboobmehdi



Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject: 84 lakh! Reply with quote

Yam!

in our ginans it is mentioned that each soul has to go through a cycle of 84 lakh, 21 lakh in each jug what does it mean?? what is the interpretation of 84 lakh?? are these in physical forms like first i was bacteria and then my soul enetred another body then finally i become a human! or are these stages of soul?? if stages of soul than how?? and what are the stages??
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion "lakh chorasi" are mental cycles one goes through until one finds the Light of faith. It is wandering from one state of mind to another until certainty of faith through spiritual enlightenment is achieved. No physical rebirths as per Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah.
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mehboobmehdi



Joined: 18 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmm.. so ur saying that 84 lakh are not physical rebirths well.. even i do agree with u in some manner and i also think it must be something to do with the spritual rebirth but than what does 21 lakh cycles in each jug mean how will u link ur interpretation of spritual cycle or spritual growth with this?? and also what are the 84 lakh satges of soul??
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mehboobmehdi wrote:
hmm.. so ur saying that 84 lakh are not physical rebirths well.. even i do agree with u in some manner and i also think it must be something to do with the spritual rebirth but than what does 21 lakh cycles in each jug mean how will u link ur interpretation of spritual cycle or spritual growth with this?? and also what are the 84 lakh satges of soul??


Mehboob,

that is karim's interpretation...i disagree..to me these are physical births..
as muslims we beleive in the law of Karma...most religions do...so to me these are physical rebirths...you have to remember pain and suffering are physical things..soul is not physical.

Shams
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mehboobmehdi



Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB: "i disagree..to me these are physical births..
as muslims we beleive in the law of Karma...most religions do...so to me these are physical rebirths...you have to remember pain and suffering are physical things..soul is not physical."

Hmm.. well yes we as muslims beleive in karma thats is we reap what we sow! but do we as muslims beleive in rebirth or reincarnation?? and when soul is apart from the devine ONE isn't that pain and suffering for the soul?? and according to kmaherali interpretation giong thorugh this 84 lakh evolution isn't pain and suffering, these are levels of knowledge and by crossing each level u come closer to God and His knowledge and thats y each soul has to cross these stages before becoming the ONE! am i right kmaherali is this what u were trying to say??

But, ShamsB u can be rite 2 this can be physical births!
(moman chetamani)

11. Those Momins who do not wake up in the morning for Ibadat will go astray and their souls will have to evolve 84 lakh times; in other words, they will not achieve salvation.


12. The only way to overcome this evolvement of 84 lakh times is by obeying Satgur's Farman, and giving Dasond to Satgur. Verily this will ensure your place in Heaven (Amrapuri).

but, the only question in ma mind is that imam has said in in farmans that there is no rebirth in islam! am i rite?? so it may be possible that pir using the hindu concept of reincarnation has given them the knowldge of sathpanth i.e free yourself from the circle of re-birth by obeying the satgur. and if this is true than the question arrises y 84 ?? and what is the interpretation of this since there is no concept of rebirth in islam according to the faramins of our imam.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mehboobmehdi wrote:


but, the only question in ma mind is that imam has said in in farmans that there is no rebirth in islam! am i rite?? so it may be possible that pir using the hindu concept of reincarnation has given them the knowldge of sathpanth i.e free yourself from the circle of re-birth by obeying the satgur. and if this is true than the question arrises y 84 ?? and what is the interpretation of this since there is no concept of rebirth in islam according to the faramins of our imam.


Where..can you show me one farman? ..I have farmans of MHI that say that life hereafter is eternal...and physical life is limited..never saying there is only one physical life...just that this life isn't eternal..yet nothing that says no rebirth..we have farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah saying there is rebirth..we have examples all over the place...not only that i have yet to see a farman of any imam contradicting a ginan of a pir...so if pir says.."is fera mahe jo tu bhul jayesi to bahut khayesi fera"....
than it must be true...
there are also higher mandli farmans/buk farmans of imams that talk about rebirth..

Look at it logically..if you cause physical pain to somebody..you think that as per the law of karma..or newton's law of motion..every action has an equal and opposite reaction..the anguish and the physical pain can be meted out to the soul..it's comparing apples to oranges...what you do on this plane..you pay for it on this plane..

Quranic Ayat on Rebirth:
Surah Baqara
2:28 How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without Life, and He gave you Life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to Life; and again to Him will ye return.

Shams
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mehboobmehdi



Joined: 18 Mar 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali: "No physical rebirths as per Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah."

kmaherali can u plz show the farman??

and shamsb: "we have farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah saying there is rebirth"

shamsb can u also plz show the farman??

10x!
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19654

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mehboobmehdi wrote:
kmaherali: "No physical rebirths as per Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah."

kmaherali can u plz show the farman??


There has been an extensive discussion in this forum under Doctrines -> Farmans of MHI(1957 to 2004) Reincarnation & Rebirth.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's statements on this subject are quite clear on this issue. There is no ambiguity about it.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19654

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mehboobmehdi wrote:
hmm.. so ur saying that 84 lakh are not physical rebirths well.. even i do agree with u in some manner and i also think it must be something to do with the spritual rebirth but than what does 21 lakh cycles in each jug mean how will u link ur interpretation of spritual cycle or spritual growth with this?? and also what are the 84 lakh satges of soul??
YAM,
Is the figure 21 for each yug mentioned in any Ginan? One could interprete a state of thinking as being related to a Yuga. As we all know that during the Karta jug the level of mental development was greatest and in Kaljug it was the lowest. Hence 84 lakhs represent all states of development encompassing all ages but represented in a single life.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
mehboobmehdi wrote:
kmaherali: "No physical rebirths as per Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah."

kmaherali can u plz show the farman??


There has been an extensive discussion in this forum under Doctrines -> Farmans of MHI(1957 to 2004) Reincarnation & Rebirth.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's statements on this subject are quite clear on this issue. There is no ambiguity about it.


Kmaherali..i don't think anybody was able to find a farman where MHI or MSMS categorically denied rebirth...


Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
Kmaherali..i don't think anybody was able to find a farman where MHI or MSMS categorically denied rebirth...


Shams

In response to one of the questions asked by a group of missionaries Mowlana Sultan Muhamad Shah stated the following regarding rebirth.

"Obviously reborn means in a higher sphere than this earth. Without going to the final spiritual sphere there will be further triumph before the highest points are reached unless those highest points are reached in this world and on this earth by the general rules of the Ismaili faith beginning with kindness, gentleness, etc and going up to highest love of union with Imam."

"After death Divine justice will take into consideration the faith, the prayers and the deeds of man. For the chosen there is eternal life and the spiritual felicity of the Divine vision. For the condemned there is hell, where they will be consumed with regret for not having known how to merit the grace and the blessing of Divine mercy". (Memoirs)

The following is an article by Imam Hazrat Mowlana Sultan Mahomed Shah (s.a.s.)
Source: Africa Ismaili Kisumu Supplement, March 28, 1969

The Christian burial ceremony and the prayers then said by the presiding ecclesiastics refer to resurrection in a way that implies some kind of similarity with the supposed historical resurrection of Christ three days after his death. There is the undoubted implication in the Burial Service that a similar resurrection will in time be the fate of those who die in Christianity.

Whether any other religion accepts such a definite (and, if I may say so, materialistic) conception of life eternal and immortality, I am not sure. The Buddhists and Brahmans certainly believe in some kind of survival, but that is very often allied to the idea of trans-migration of souls from animals to men and angels or still higher beings in the spiritual world of those faiths.

The Islamic conception is, however, different from the extreme materialistic idea of a live body, similar to the man as he was in life, getting up from his utter destructibility, to form a body with all the nervous and other forces that control our existence in this world. Such an idea does not appeal to those who have not been brought up from childhood in the personal Faith of the Resurrection of the Master.

The Hindu and Buddhistic explanations of life after death, with always the influence of the soul taking forms either much lower, such as the lowest animals, or much higher, like some so-called Gods of both Brahmanism and Buddhism, seem to many brought up outside their immemorial tradition as more a hope and pious wish than anything founded on fact.

Now if we turn to the Catholic religion we see immediately in all Catholic countries that St. Thomas Aquinas philosophy is still the foundation on which the Catholic Faith rests. I am not at all certain about the Church of England (as established at the time of the Reformation), that the branch of the Holy Catholic Church which appoints and crowns the Kings of England; for I have never been able to find out whether they also - like the more senior and universal Catholic Church of Rome - base their religious philosophy on the Aristotelian logic of St. Thomas.

For Muslims there has been a similar personal influence, and in many ways it resembles the position that St Thomas Aquinas took in the Catholic Church. First of all as regards the idea of divinity of God: a great deal of the Koran is taken up with God's intimate presence in the world, with the importance of each human being's relations with the Creator; but only in one chapter-the chapter on Light-is the nature of the divinity referred to in a very clear form. Although, of course, we do not believe that the person of the Creator is a form of light, either in waves or in the minutest association of myriads of points, yet the consequence of the light as seen in the universe, is the nearest we can imagine or hope to believe about the person of our Creator.

This was as far as Islamic theological thought went in the early years after the Prophet's death. But just as St. Thomas Aquinas came long after the beginning of the Christian era and laid the foundation of the philosophy of the Roman Catholic Church, so in the Muslim world the Spaniard Ibn-Rushd (known to the Europeans as Averroes) changed the Islamic outlook on the foundation of Faith. He switched it from reasoning, which he clearly showed was the work of the material brain and could never grasp spiritual truth, nor could spiritual truth ever be found by logic and science; it was an illumination and enlightenment directly given by the Creator to those who had the grace to receive it. But as Ibn-Rushd has consistnently shown, this spiritual knowledge, directly given, can be studied, learnt and followed by the whole Islamic mass of the population. It is a Muslim's highest duty, by intensive prayer and spiritual abandonment of self to the great universal Soul of the Universe, to get the supreme blessing of direct communion with Absolute Reality.

Just as the events of Easter Week become part of Christianity and the hope of men, so the death-bed scene of our Holy Prophet, so well authenticated by evidence, took place in the presence of his two cousins, Ali and Ibn-Abbas, his wives, and above all, his future great successor, the Caliph Omar, then one of his leading companions. All this evidence is exactly the same. The last words of the Prophet were "Companionship on High."

This is a third way of looking at survival after death (apart from the Biblical raising of the body, and from the indefinite and varied doctrines of the several Hindu schools of thought and the two great Buddhist Northern and Southern sects). It is the hope of all true Muslims, like their Prophet, namely, "Companionship on High."
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gasajoo



Joined: 08 Jul 2003
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Location: London,UK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: Lakh Chorasi Reply with quote

<P align=left>YAMs and Hi <BR><BR>I cannot understand where these 84 lakh comes from?<BR><BR>As far as I recollect (&nbsp;reading/listening to the ginans) there is a mention of&nbsp; "35 ne 25 ,16 ne 8, ferra choriasi fariyo tune san ne awi re, tum jaag mn mera"or similar?<BR><BR>If u add up all the above numbers, (ie 35+25+16+8&nbsp;)&nbsp;it is 84(Chorrasi or choriasi)&nbsp;<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Hope this my clear some of the questions?<BR><BR></P>[/b]
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faisall667



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB:
Quote:
it's comparing apples to oranges...what you do on this plane..you pay for it on this plane..


So are you saying that what I do in my material life is independent of what I do in (for) my spritual life? Because I disagree.

Faisal
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

faisall667 wrote:
ShamsB:
Quote:
it's comparing apples to oranges...what you do on this plane..you pay for it on this plane..


So are you saying that what I do in my material life is independent of what I do in (for) my spritual life? Because I disagree.

Faisal


No what i am saying is that there needs to a balance..as per MHI's Farmans..until that balance is acheived..nothing will happen spiritually..
however what is being referred to in the quote is that what you do in your physical life...this physical life..good or bad..carries over into the next one..until you attain salvation..kind of like no interest credit card debt...
you have to pay for all your physical activites..

"dosh dayalji ko kiyun kardijiye...Karme Likhiya Sohi Paave"....

where do these Karma come from..we live in a physical world..we commit physical acts..the soul isn't physical..we can't commit any acts by the soul..or in our soul state..

or as it is stated in the Quran..you were dead and i gave you life..i will make you dead and give you life again and make you dead again...

Shams.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="ShamsB"]
mehboobmehdi wrote:


but, the only question in ma mind is that imam has said in in farmans that there is no rebirth in islam! am i rite??



There are countless farmans of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah that specifically use the expression "Lakh Chorasi" in the sense of future incarnations and rebirth.

I have read several of them in Farman books. I do not have those farmans handy to give the reference but many knows me enough to trust that my knowledge of farmans is somehow precise...

This does not mean that for audiences others than Ismailis, in speeches or articles he may have not said other things. It just means that there are farmans to confirm the 84 lakh.

Nagib
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19654

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagib wrote:


This does not mean that for audiences others than Ismailis, in speeches or articles he may have not said other things. It just means that there are farmans to confirm the 84 lakh.

Nagib

I would not consider the Imam discussing matters with a group of missionaries as an 'outside the jamat' situation. To this group he categorically said that rebirth is in the higher realms and not physical.

In the Farmans there is always room for allegorical interpretation.
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arshad1988



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali, I was wondering if everyone goes through 84 lakhs according to your interpretation of mental states until one reaches certainty. If I am understanding your interpretation correctly, does the 84 lakhs represent times we have had doubts until we have reached certainty? If so, are there people who have reached certainty as of the first mental state? Please if you can elaborate on this, or refer me to a different thread which you or someone else has elaborated on. Thanks and Yaa Ali Madad!!
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM Arshad,

In my opinion, 84 lakhs should not be taken in a literal sense - it is symbolic of many states of mind that one goes through especially in the periods of doubt. In that sense, I would not discount the possibility that there are those who are born and nurtured in complete certainly and are indeed in a state of enlightenment all the time.

Tom Harpur, the well known broadcaster in religious matters, discusses these issues in the context of religious education in the following article. I will present the entire article and highlight the key aspects that have bearing on this issue.

Want kids with values? Better have them yourself

An old professor of mine, Dr. Ramsay Armitage, had some sage advice for young ministers faced with doting parents and their infants.

It was suitable' for baptisms or any other occasion when one was expected to comment on the surpassing charms of what, to the casual outsider, might seem like a very unremarkable — not to say ondescript — new arrival on the human scene.

Holding an imaginary baby in his arms, he would beam his warmest, most beatific smile and say: "My, that is a baby, that certainly is a baby!"

But, beneath his humorous, gentle ap­proach, Armitage held an awareness of a fundamental truth. The extraordinary conviction of most parents that their off­spring is the sans pareil of any child ever born anywhere springs from deep, essentially religious, stirrings.

All religions and myths from earliest times have stressed the theme of the miraculous child. It abounds in the classical Greek myths. It occurs with Moses in the Old Testament and with John the Baptist and Jesus in the New Testament.

The universal truth behind such myths is that our unconscious mind knows we have a divine origin, all of us.

The myth of the miraculous child is a way of openly acknowledging that every newborn is potentially a saviour figure, a fresh beginning on behalf of the world.


That, admittedly, is a controversial position to take. What cannot, it seems to me, be denied is that every newborn is a potential spiritual genius.

All the required gifts are there: a. soundless sense of wonder, an incred­ible trust, an amazing simplicity and guilelessness, an openmindedness linked with an enormous capacity for the sheer joy of life.

As Wordsworth puts it in his ode, Intimations of Immortality:

"Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!
Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing boy."


But, whereas, if we had a child who showed early aptitude for some sport, for the dance, for art or for music, we would spare no expense and effort to see this talent developed, when it comes to spiritual gifts we ignore them and blithely allow the "prison-house" to eclipse them en­tirely.

Is it any wonder, then, that so many of today's youth, in spite of all that is showered upon them, feel hollow at the core, devoid of meaning and frustrated at a culture which appears to hold out "bread" but is actually offering them "stones" instead?

What are street gangs, substance abuse or mindless sex other than expres­sions of attempts to fill a spiritual void? Not all young people are deceived by such things, of course. But, even among those who have never been tempted by violence, drugs or promiscuity, there is a widespread sense of alienation and of angst over "What is the point of it all?"

This, to my mind, faces us with a crisis much greater than our apparently all-consuming fears over the constitutional future of the country.

Significantly, there are growing signs that parents and educators are aware of the problem and are becoming more and more concerned. The single topic of greatest interest to parents or teachers' groups who invite me to speak these days is a variant on the theme: "How do we impart spiritual values to our chil­ dren in the midst of a materialistic cul­ture?"

Separate or independent, religiously oriented schools are the answer for some; church school, or Sunday School as we used to call it, is the approach taken by others (a rapidly decreasing number, one must add); some parents are combining with others and experi­menting with informal classes in their own homes. But, in spite of their worries, the majority are still doing little or nothing.

It's a little like the situation over the environment. The polls show this is the Number 1 concern of Canadians. But they also show that we are not really prepared to endure any hardships or changes in our lifestyles to do anything serious about it.

Like it or not, anyone who truly cares about the spiritual and moral welfare of their children must be ready to pay the price. There is a radical challenge involv­ ed.

In a word, you simply cannot impart that which you haven't got yourself. You can't hope to see your youngsters ac­quire desirable ethical and spiritual values unless these are not only profess­ ed but lived out by you yourself in your own home. No hypocrisy is more trans­parent than the "Don't do as I do but do as I say" syndrome.

The initial responsibility, thus, is ours as adults. If we haven't got a meaningful world view and a set of spiritual values that works for us, it's time we did.


Dr Tom Harpur is a Toronto author and broadcaster.
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erumsuleman



Joined: 24 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
mehboobmehdi wrote:
hmm.. so ur saying that 84 lakh are not physical rebirths well.. even i do agree with u in some manner and i also think it must be something to do with the spritual rebirth but than what does 21 lakh cycles in each jug mean how will u link ur interpretation of spritual cycle or spritual growth with this?? and also what are the 84 lakh satges of soul??
YAM,
Is the figure 21 for each yug mentioned in any Ginan? One could interprete a state of thinking as being related to a Yuga. As we all know that during the Karta jug the level of mental development was greatest and in Kaljug it was the lowest. Hence 84 lakhs represent all states of development encompassing all ages but represented in a single life.


the cycle goes in this way:
35+25+16+8=84
Reference:Uth jaag man mera(ginan)
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good explanation again Erum and it is true but I want to make clarification in this subject

There are 4 yugas called 4 Cycles in English, in every yuga Human being get some chances to get salvation for them selves if they failed to get salvation in one birth then they have to take another birth and they have to keep continue til they get MOKSHA in ginanic language.

Such chances are as below:

1. SatYug : 35 Chances

2, Treta Yug" 25 chances

3, Dwapar Yug: 16 chances

4, Kali Yug: 8 chances.



In Utha Jag Man Mera : Syeda Imam Begum has explained above beautifully along with many other things too ; like how many time human beings breath in a day? how to Zikar? e.t.c..
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
In my opinion "lakh chorasi" are mental cycles one goes through until one finds the Light of faith. It is wandering from one state of mind to another until certainty of faith through spiritual enlightenment is achieved. No physical rebirths as per Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah.
I have changed my views since I made the post. Physical rebirths do happen, but as Ismailis we must aspire for higher life and hopefully not to undergo physical rebirths.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

erumsuleman wrote:

the cycle goes in this way:
35+25+16+8=84
Reference:Uth jaag man mera(ginan)
The Ginan verses state:

ejee paa(n)trees ne pachavees, sol ne aatth
vaar choraasee faree-o, tune shaan na aaveere
utth jaag man meraa..........................................2

Thirty five and twenty five, sixteen and eight. You have taken eighty
four rebirths; but you have not attained the sensibility (to the inner mysteries of life).
Rise up and be awake...

ejee ettalaa jo feraa fareeyo, maankhaa janam dhareeyo
or jo tu(n) janam dhareeyo, uskee rabku(n) kal padde
utth jaag man meraa..........................................3

Those cycles you have gone through in human form. Only God knows how many births you went through in other forms.
Rise up and be awake...

From the above verses it is clear that the number 84 refers to human births.
The four types indicated by the numbers 35, 24, 16 and 8 could be the caste system viz Sudras - labourers, Vaiysas - mental skills related occupation, Kshatriyas - administrative and army and Brahmins - priesthood.

Lakh Chrasi which according to the Farmans are 184,000 non-human rebirths in the evolutionary stages reflected in the "chaar khaann" - the four stages/phases namely seetej, jarej, indaj and udhboj.

In the Ginan: 'E abadu jamin naa hoti' it is stated:

chaar khaann tujne hoegaa na feraa
Meaning: You will not have to endure the cycles of the four phases.

In the Ginan: 'Sat Gur Padhariya tame jaagajo' it is stated:

Nahi to paddsho lakh chorasi maa
Meaning: Else you will fall in the 184,000 cycles.

From the two Ginanic references above we can infer that the 184,000 cycles happened in the four phases.


Last edited by kmaherali on Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:11 pm, edited 4 times in total
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ismaili103



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little correction here, fourth cycle is known as " udhboj " not surej.

Can any one clarify here that there are 84 lakh cycles of evolution but what are 84 cycle ??? Are evolution is distributed into 84 species with 100000 evolution in each ...???
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ismaili103 wrote:
Little correction here, fourth cycle is known as " udhboj " not surej.

Can any one clarify here that there are 84 lakh cycles of evolution but what are 84 cycle ??? Are evolution is distributed into 84 species with 100000 evolution in each ...???
Thanks for the correction. I checked the Farman yesterday. The lakh chorasi actually means 184,000 rebirths in non-human forms. In my opinion the number alludes figuratively to many many life forms before the appearance of man. It does not imply the exact number.
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ismaili103



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
ismaili103 wrote:
Little correction here, fourth cycle is known as " udhboj " not surej.

Can any one clarify here that there are 84 lakh cycles of evolution but what are 84 cycle ??? Are evolution is distributed into 84 species with 100000 evolution in each ...???
Thanks for the correction. I checked the Farman yesterday. The lakh chorasi actually means 184,000 rebirths in non-human forms. In my opinion the number alludes figuratively to many many life forms before the appearance of man. It does not imply the exact number.


In Ginans lakh chorasi translated as 84 lakh, The great Pirs give us that figure it means no. Of organisms didnot exceed 8.4 million figure, some of which are extinct and some are unknown to science.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Missionary AbuAly's thinking on this subject is at:

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanhist.html
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The lakh chorasi actually means 184,000 rebirths in non-human forms.


Quote:
Can any one clarify here that there are 84 lakh cycles of evolution but what are 84 cycle ??? Are evolution is distributed into 84 species with 100000 evolution in each ...???



Yes, I can as per my little knowledge.

As per my own study ( which you won't find in our literature)
The 84 lakhs ( 184.000) Yonis, ( births ) are as follows, these yonis or you can tell them different species - or souls takes births in 4 different Khans
i.e. Sitage, Jadage, Indage and UdarBhoj ( Udhbhoj).

9 (nine) LAKHS : GROWTH IN SEA.

10(ten) LAKHS BIRDS

11 (eleven) LAKHS : BACTERIA, UNSEEN CREATURE IN AIR .

20 (twenty)LAKHS: ANIMALS

30 (thirty) LAKHS: IMMOVABLE CREATURE LIKE MOUNTAINS, METALS, MINERALS*

4 (four)LAKHS HUMAN BEINGS.

TOTAL comes " 84 LAKHS YONIS**" ; as described many times in our
ginanic literature.

* Some may raise question here -DOES MOUNTAIN, MINERALS HAS SOUL??!!!

**84x100000= 1.84 milions

-In these yonis, some creatures may have been already extincted and some creatures may still has to come in light.

- As per my own thinking:- Once you reach the human stage then you would not have to go back in lower species like animals, birds, e.t.c. but you get 8 more chances in human souls.[/u]
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ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 498

PostPosted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Quote:
The lakh chorasi actually means 184,000 rebirths in non-human forms.


Quote:
Can any one clarify here that there are 84 lakh cycles of evolution but what are 84 cycle ??? Are evolution is distributed into 84 species with 100000 evolution in each ...???



Yes, I can as per my little knowledge.

As per my own study ( which you won't find in our literature)
The 84 lakhs ( 184.000) Yonis, ( births ) are as follows, these yonis or you can tell them different species - or souls takes births in 4 different Khans
i.e. Sitage, Jadage, Indage and UdarBhoj ( Udhbhoj).

9 (nine) LAKHS : GROWTH IN SEA.

10(ten) LAKHS BIRDS

11 (eleven) LAKHS : BACTERIA, UNSEEN CREATURE IN AIR .

20 (twenty)LAKHS: ANIMALS

30 (thirty) LAKHS: IMMOVABLE CREATURE LIKE MOUNTAINS, METALS, MINERALS*

4 (four)LAKHS HUMAN BEINGS.

TOTAL comes " 84 LAKHS YONIS**" ; as described many times in our
ginanic literature.

* Some may raise question here -DOES MOUNTAIN, MINERALS HAS SOUL??!!!

**84x100000= 1.84 milions

-In these yonis, some creatures may have been already extincted and some creatures may still has to come in light.

- As per my own thinking:- Once you reach the human stage then you would not have to go back in lower species like animals, birds, e.t.c. but you get 8 more chances in human souls.[/u]


Great , thanks icon_smile.gif

I have some queries...
I know that you gave all this facts and figures from your Ginanic knowledge ... I have a question, is 11 lakh are the number of evolutions of bacteria or kind of bacteria... Because as per my knowledge in Ginan Pirs mentioned the figure of 99 crore for bacterias ( jakh ), 56 crore for birds ( megh )...!

As per my knowledge and my understanding 8 lives given to us is in Ismaili sect. As listen in one waez of Abualy. As you mentioned in your above post 4 lakhs are human evolutions which means 4 lakhs are human chances.

84*100000 = 8.4 million.
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad.
Firstly Abuali was not an authority by any means by any tariqa board or MHI
on explanation of the figure as final word/analysis.
The soul is ona very very long haul on earth n not any other planet or system,as its body to repay for sin or reward for good deeds
there are many many ayats n farmans hinting to it.
there countless numbers of relife.

I assume Kmaherali is stuck in particular mindset on it.You need to know thyself(soul) n not Mr Harper

What is more important is progress of the soul in getting nearer n nearer
(amara najdik anee wadhu najdik aavsoo) to GOD.

Debating on figures is waste of time as there is no proven confirmation to it.

My question to all :
Is the soul in human body a part of creation or creator?
your answer needed in maximum 2-3 lines.
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ismaili103



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perfect facts and figures are given by Pirs in Ginans. For this i dont need any prove, but wait you need prove beacause you didnt belive in Ginans , unfortunately you are unlucky that you have no knowledge of Ginans. icon_cool.gif

pirs have the same Noor of prophet Muhammad who is Creator and Creator knows best about his creation.
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