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kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: It is wrong to say that Ismailis go to JK for prayers and it is equivalent to Hajj. .

Aren't both Hajj and JK places of purification and prayers? Most ratiional murids would consider them to be equivalent. We are after all a batini tradition.

shivaathervedi wrote: In poetry there are few versions of Mowla Ali's marriage account, being an Ismaili which one you follow Momin Chetamani or Sabri's version.

Of course as Ismailis we would give more importance to Momin Chetamni.

HBL building in Karachi is not equivalent to Burj Al Khalifa in height. Ka'aba is declared sanctuary and pure by God. In batin a person is considered pure in thoughts and deeds.
Momin Chetamany says;

TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JALL SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHVAAR

(Allah said to Muhammad pbuh) in your house is daughter (bibi Fatima) and in my house is her husband (Mowla Ali). You are Muhammad and I am Allah Jall shanhu. This relationship is in between you and me.
In this part Ali is declared as son of God??

shivaathervedi wrote:In Amman conference per message of MHI ," Our historic adherence is to Ja'fari Madhab", means from the time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq Ismailis followed it. Do Ismailis follow Ja'fari Madhab now adays, I don't think so. At least Satpunthi Ismailis are different.
Did MSMS ever made a farman of such kind that Ismailis follow Ja'fari Madhab?
In Fatimid period and before Ja'fari Madhab was followed. The proof is writings of Dai Idris, Qadi Noaman, his son Muhammad, Al Moe'd and other Dais.

The essence of the Ja'fari Madhab is the acceptance of the authority of the Quran and the Household. We follow both and hence we are followers of the Jafari Mdhab. There is a related article at: http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_ ... nopsis.htm

Or it is in this forum at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 02&start=0

What does does it matter whether MSMS said it or not. Isn't the present Imam's statement enough?

shivaathervedi wrote:HBL building in Karachi is not equivalent to Burj Al Khalifa in height.

Physical size and appearance is irrelevant. What matters is whether their functionality is the same or not.

HBL building in Karachi is not equivalent to Burj Al Khalifa in height. Ka'aba is declared sanctuary and pure by God. In batin a person is considered pure in thoughts and deeds.

Kaaba is more like a billion dollar Business now a days for Saud Royal Family by which they fund different terrorist organization in middle east with the help of there so called Kaafir BUT Dost USA.

Don't want to write a long paragraph, just want to say

"Jamat Khana is greater than Kaaba"

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:HBL building in Karachi is not equivalent to Burj Al Khalifa in height.

Physical size and appearance is irrelevant. What matters is whether their functionality is the same or not.

Both buildings are money making institutions.
Mowla Ali was born in Ka'batullah therefore it is the most important.
You avoided answering the part of Momin Chetamani by Syed Imam Shah.
This part goes against the Ismaili philosophy.


TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AMM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JALL SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHVAAR

(Allah said to Muhammad pbuh) in your house is daughter (bibi Fatima) and in my house is her husband (Mowla Ali). You are Muhammad and I am Allah Jall shanhu. This relationship is in between you and me.
In this part Ali is declared as son of God??

ismaili103 wrote:

HBL building in Karachi is not equivalent to Burj Al Khalifa in height. Ka'aba is declared sanctuary and pure by God. In batin a person is considered pure in thoughts and deeds.

Kaaba is more like a billion dollar Business now a days for Saud Royal Family by which they fund different terrorist organization in middle east with the help of there so called Kaafir BUT Dost USA.

Don't want to write a long paragraph, just want to say

"Jamat Khana is greater than Kaaba"

Ka'ba is the place where Mowla Ali was born therefore it is greater than Jamait Khana.
There is one ka'batullah, where there are almost 3500 JKs.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:In Amman conference per message of MHI ," Our historic adherence is to Ja'fari Madhab", means from the time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq Ismailis followed it. Do Ismailis follow Ja'fari Madhab now adays, I don't think so. At least Satpunthi Ismailis are different.
Did MSMS ever made a farman of such kind that Ismailis follow Ja'fari Madhab?
In Fatimid period and before Ja'fari Madhab was followed. The proof is writings of Dai Idris, Qadi Noaman, his son Muhammad, Al Moe'd and other Dais.

The essence of the Ja'fari Madhab is the acceptance of the authority of the Quran and the Household. We follow both and hence we are followers of the Jafari Mdhab. There is a related article at: http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_ ... nopsis.htm

Or it is in this forum at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 02&start=0

What does does it matter whether MSMS said it or not. Isn't the present Imam's statement enough?

Finally got the right statment, you wrote," The essence of the Ja'fari Madhab is the acceptance of the authority of the QURAN and the HOUSEHOLD.
Good enough, every Ismail should follow the farmans of the PRESENT IMAM AND THE CHANGES HE MADE ACCORDING TO TIME.

shivaathervedi wrote: Ka'ba is the place where Mowla Ali was born therefore it is greater than Jamait Khana.
There is one ka'batullah, where there are almost 3500 JKs.

Ka'ba is a place where the Imam was present 1400 years ago and which is not accessible to most murids on a regular basis today. Jamatkhana is a place where the Imam is present at all times and is accessible to most murids on a regular basis. Therefore Jamatkhana is better than the Ka'ba for murids.

I think Karim bhai already gave you the answer what I want to write.

Imam himself said that I'm ever present in the Jamat Khana. I think even Arab Ismailies don't need to go to Kaaba because they also have JK's in Syria etc.

shivaathervedi wrote: Both buildings are money making institutions.

Since both institutions have the same function, they can be comparable, so it is not true to say that they are not equivalent just because one is taller than the other.

shivaathervedi wrote: You avoided answering the part of Momin Chetamani by Syed Imam Shah.
This part goes against the Ismaili philosophy.

Tusi explains this concept in his Paradise of Submission:

$375] But, relatively speaking and [according to the
saying], 'Through an appearance [of the Imam] which is relative to the
people [in the realms], not a real manifestation in his essence,' he
has a kind of appearance in each of these realms [of relative being]
for the sake of [sustaining] their existence. For if he did not make
an appearnce and cast a glance upon each of these realms, and if each
of these realms did not have some relation and connection with him,
they would have no existence at all. Thus, in this respect, in terms
of relativity, he has been and always will be manifest in this world.
It is from this perspective [the Imam appears as] both father and son,
sometimes a child and sometimes an old man, and so forth.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: Ka'ba is the place where Mowla Ali was born therefore it is greater than Jamait Khana.
There is one ka'batullah, where there are almost 3500 JKs.

Ka'ba is a place where the Imam was present 1400 years ago and which is not accessible to most murids on a regular basis today. Jamatkhana is a place where the Imam is present at all times and is accessible to most murids on a regular basis. Therefore Jamatkhana is better than the Ka'ba for murids.

TE MURTAZA ALI AVATARIYA
ABU TALIB NE GHER AVTAAR
TE BAIT ALLAH MAHE(N) PAIDA THAYA
TE SHAHAR MACCA MINJAAR
CHETO RIKHI SARO......
JK is not called or compared with BAIT ALLAH.

JKs were stablished since time of Pir Shams before that where did Ismailis turn to for vision of Noor e Imamat. What about duration of Daur e satar or Takiya, at that time the word Satpunthi was not coined.

shivaathervedi wrote:JKs were stablished since time of Pir Shams before that where did Ismailis turn to for vision of Noor e Imamat. What about duration of Daur e satar or Takiya, at that time the word Satpunthi was not coined.

We are concerned about the relevance from a practical point of view and not from a historical perspective. For most Ismailis, the Ka'ba remains inaccessible, so how can it be important for us, what benefit do we derive from it?

Imam himself said that I'm ever present in the Jamat Khana. I think even Arab Ismailies don't need to go to Kaaba because they also have JK's in Syria etc.

What a genius idea, that Arab Ismailis instead of visiting Ka'ba attend JK in Syria to have glimpse of Noor and GET KILLED THERE and asal ma wasil.
(various groups are fighting in Syria and about 4 millions have left the country to save their lives).

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:JKs were stablished since time of Pir Shams before that where did Ismailis turn to for vision of Noor e Imamat. What about duration of Daur e satar or Takiya, at that time the word Satpunthi was not coined.

We are concerned about the relevance from a practical point of view and not from a historical perspective. For most Ismailis, the Ka'ba remains inaccessible, so how can it be important for us, what benefit do we derive from it?

But for practical point of view you are neglecting historical facts.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: Both buildings are money making institutions.

Since both institutions have the same function, they can be comparable, so it is not true to say that they are not equivalent just because one is taller than the other.

shivaathervedi wrote: You avoided answering the part of Momin Chetamani by Syed Imam Shah.
This part goes against the Ismaili philosophy.

Tusi explains this concept in his Paradise of Submission:

$375] But, relatively speaking and [according to the
saying], 'Through an appearance [of the Imam] which is relative to the
people [in the realms], not a real manifestation in his essence,' he
has a kind of appearance in each of these realms [of relative being]
for the sake of [sustaining] their existence. For if he did not make
an appearnce and cast a glance upon each of these realms, and if each
of these realms did not have some relation and connection with him,
they would have no existence at all. Thus, in this respect, in terms
of relativity, he has been and always will be manifest in this world.
It is from this perspective [the Imam appears as] both father and son,
sometimes a child and sometimes an old man, and so forth.

I believe Noor of Allah is present for guidance but your quote is not solving the explanation of the Momin Chetamani part. Father and son is christian philosophy and has nothing to do with Ismaili philosophy. Tusi has explained that after father son will be Imam.
PIDAR NOOR WA PISAR NOOR AST MASHHUR
AZ EEN FAHUM KUN NOORUN ALA NOOR

shivaathervedi wrote: But for practical point of view you are neglecting historical facts.

I am not neglecting historical facts. Sure we can read and contemplate about our history.

All I am saying is that historical monuments are not as important as Jamatkhanas which signify living traditions. There are Farmans to attend JKs regularly, that is not the case with the Ka'ba.

ismaili103 wrote:I think Karim bhai already gave you the answer what I want to write.

Imam himself said that I'm ever present in the Jamat Khana. I think even Arab Ismailies don't need to go to Kaaba because they also have JK's in Syria etc.

What a genius idea, that Arab Ismailis instead of visiting ka'ba attend JK in Syria to have glimpse of Noor and GET KILLED there and asal ma wasil.
( various groups are fighting in Syria and about 4 millions have left country to save their lives ).

shivaathervedi wrote: What a genius idea, that Arab Ismailis instead of visiting ka'ba attend JK in Syria to have glimpse of Noor and GET KILLED there and asal ma wasil.
( various groups are fighting in Syria and about 4 millions have left country to save their lives ).

Those who attend the Ka'ba get killed as well through the stampedes and wars in Muslim countries. Deaths and wars are facts of modern life. Nobody is immune to that.

Those who attend JKs regularly are more able to withstand these adversities because of the greatness of the hereafter as mentioned in the Farmans and Ginans.

Ya Ali Madad.
Circling the Kaaba is a ritual but not a religion,It may form a part or sub part of a relgious belief.
1400 year back there was no yearly trade fair which happen in many countries for specific industry or services.
So a gathering of followers from different part on the world was great Idea then with passport or visas needed.
It was to create and have low cost option to spread the message of Islam far and wide.
many important and iconic trade fairs in Germany of 20 years back have moved their locations to China.( location looses importance with times)
Islam is FAITH which AFFIRM with inner/self belief of God and submission within one ownself.
It is Not hajj,jihad, terrorism, type of clothes and behavior and physical acts anchored into past.
what is happening is reality over 37% of the world population have got rid of religion obligations on themselves and may be another 33% are part of a indentified religious groups for name sake only.
one must learn to know difference between the words rituals,religion and faith.
without faith a person is like dust.
A dust can take 12 different names,but Dust is a dust.

A study done showed that 70% of muslims household of average 5.5 persons in family have monthly income of rs 5000 only($ 80 per month) in state of west bengal in India
If spending of hajj by other for hajj was spend to raise their income and quality of life in last 50 year.
they would be living like humans now and not a life like an animals.
they are 10 million of them.
Islam is caring and giving.
most acts call for generosity .
I personally feel that is one person say gives rs 1 lac by foregoing hajj
and gives food grains to 12 families for a year will looked upon by Ali+lah=Allah as greater soul than one taking hajj in peer pressure or to be counted among close one.

the main cause of them as sub human lives is because of the local kaji,moullana,mufti guiding them and their madrassas funded by a rich arab country.
End result is observed across the world.
At time I feel a global policeman like Donald Trump could be one answer atleast for short term

shivaathervedi wrote:I believe Noor of Allah is present for guidance but your quote is not solving the explanation of the Momin Chetamani part. Father and son is christian philosophy and has nothing to do with Ismaili philosophy. Tusi has explained that after father son will be Imam.
PIDAR NOOR WA PISAR NOOR AST MASHHUR
AZ EEN FAHUM KUN NOORUN ALA NOOR

I think Ginans are poetic in their expression. When Allah says that Hazarat Ali was his son, it is a poetic way of saying that he was of Allah's substance. This is confirmed by other verse that you quoted:

TE MURTAZA ALI AVATARIYA
ABU TALIB NE GHER AVTAAR

Which means that Murtaza Ali was the manifestation of God and he manifested in the house of Abu Talib. Since Abu Talib was alive at the time of the marriage of Hazarat Ali, then Hazart Abu Talib was the Imam at that time and he was infact conversing with the Prophet. Therefore Hazarat Ali was the physical son of God (Hazarat Abu Talib).

In our tradition, the Imams are born Imams. Therefore Hazarat Ali was the Mazhar of the Divine Essence as well as the son of Abu Talib who was also the Mazhar of the Essence. The Christian concept does not apply.

shivaathervedi wrote:

ismaili103 wrote:I think Karim bhai already gave you the answer what I want to write.

Imam himself said that I'm ever present in the Jamat Khana. I think even Arab Ismailies don't need to go to Kaaba because they also have JK's in Syria etc.

What a genius idea, that Arab Ismailis instead of visiting ka'ba attend JK in Syria to have glimpse of Noor and GET KILLED there and asal ma wasil.
( various groups are fighting in Syria and about 4 millions have left country to save their lives ).

Many Ismailis from syria moved to Canada, and guess what there is no Kaaba in Canada, so its good for them, now they should attend JK regularly and taste the trip to kaaba 136 times by atrending JK 2 times a day.

ismaili103 wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:

ismaili103 wrote:I think Karim bhai already gave you the answer what I want to write.

Imam himself said that I'm ever present in the Jamat Khana. I think even Arab Ismailies don't need to go to Kaaba because they also have JK's in Syria etc.

What a genius idea, that Arab Ismailis instead of visiting ka'ba attend JK in Syria to have glimpse of Noor and GET KILLED there and asal ma wasil.
( various groups are fighting in Syria and about 4 millions have left country to save their lives ).

Many Ismailis from syria moved to Canada, and guess what there is no Kaaba in Canada, so its good for them, now they should attend JK regularly and taste the trip to kaaba 136 times by atrending JK 2 times a day.

Wow, you have good knowledge, of course there is no Ka'ba in Canada. There is ONLY one Ka'ba situated in Mecca and we can not equate with JK. I am unable to find any such quote in Fatimid Literature or in pro or post Alamout era litrature that jk = ka'ba. I have visited Canada quite few times and I know the numbers of Syrian Ismailis living in Ottawa or in Qubec . Over all they do not follow Satpunthi Tariqa and they do not consider JK is KA'BA.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote:I believe Noor of Allah is present for guidance but your quote is not solving the explanation of the Momin Chetamani part. Father and son is christian philosophy and has nothing to do with Ismaili philosophy. Tusi has explained that after father son will be Imam.
PIDAR NOOR WA PISAR NOOR AST MASHHUR
AZ EEN FAHUM KUN NOORUN ALA NOOR

I think Ginans are poetic in their expression. When Allah says that Hazarat Ali was his son, it is a poetic way of saying that he was of Allah's substance. This is confirmed by other verse that you quoted:

TE MURTAZA ALI AVATARIYA
ABU TALIB NE GHER AVTAAR

Which means that Murtaza Ali was the manifestation of God and he manifested in the house of Abu Talib. Since Abu Talib was alive at the time of the marriage of Hazarat Ali, then Hazart Abu Talib was the Imam at that time and he was infact conversing with the Prophet. Therefore Hazarat Ali was the physical son of God (Hazarat Abu Talib).

In our tradition, the Imams are born Imams. Therefore Hazarat Ali was the Mazhar of the Divine Essence as well as the son of Abu Talib who was also the Mazhar of the Essence. The Christian concept does not apply.

Good to see you admitted Ginans are POETIC EXPRESSIONS.. So Ali is son of Allah, this kind of poetry (ginan) will derail and weaken faith of many.
You wrote," Since Abu Talib was alive at the time of marraige of Ali......"
You are making a historical blunder. Hazrat Abu Talib was not alive at time of marriage of Mowla Ali. Abu Talib passed away in Mecca., the same year Bibi Khadija aslo passed away and that year in Islamic history is called 'AAMUL HAZAN. Mowla Ali's marriage took place almost 4 years after the death of Abu Talib in 2 hegira in Medina. So your explanation is completely out of tune.

kmaherali wrote:

shivaathervedi wrote: What a genius idea, that Arab Ismailis instead of visiting ka'ba attend JK in Syria to have glimpse of Noor and GET KILLED there and asal ma wasil.
( various groups are fighting in Syria and about 4 millions have left country to save their lives ).

Those who attend the Ka'ba get killed as well through the stampedes and wars in Muslim countries. Deaths and wars are facts of modern life. Nobody is immune to that.

Those who attend JKs regularly are more able to withstand these adversities because of the greatness of the hereafter as mentioned in the Farmans and Ginans.

You are right no body is immune to that and you should be aware of that through out history many JKs were burnt and Ismailis massacred.
Is there any farman exists in which Imam said JK is superrior than Ka'ba?

My 2 cents.

Did Hallaj not have a black stone in the middle of his sitting room. He used to circle it each time when he had guest.

Secondly, when the black stone was taken to Barhain for 24 years by the Qarmatis where was the Kaba and what direction where devote Muslim praying to? (We know only Namaz toward Mecca is accepted by your firqah, the one called Dua in Jamatkhana does not count, it is only for some heretics like myself.) By the way did Mowlana Hakim send someone to smach the black stone and put the end to the idolatry? Who knows... Maybe (Isaiah 55:8)

.

Wow, you have good knowledge, of course there is no Ka'ba in Canada. There is ONLY one Ka'ba situated in Mecca and we can not equate with JK. I am unable to find any such quote in Fatimid Literature or in pro or post Alamout era litrature that jk = ka'ba. I have visited Canada quite few times and I know the numbers of Syrian Ismailis living in Ottawa or in Qubec . Over all they do not follow Satpunthi Tariqa and they do not consider JK is KA'BA.

Yes they are attending JK in Canada and I'm very happy for them that now they are performing 68 or 136 hajj pilgrimage everyday by attending JK.

And BTW who is saying that JK=Kaaba or JK is Kaaba, we are just saying JK is something GREATER THAN KAABA.

Admin wrote:My 2 cents.

Did Hallaj not have a black stone in the middle of his sitting room. He used to circle it each time when he had guest.

Secondly, when the black stone was taken to Barhain for 24 years by the Qarmatis where was the Kaba and what direction where devote Muslim praying to? (We know only Namaz toward Mecca is accepted by your firqah, the one called Dua in Jamatkhana does not count, it is only for some heretics like myself.) By the way did Mowlana Hakim send someone to smach the black stone and put the end to the idolatry? Who knows... Maybe (Isaiah 55:8)

.

Add my 98 cents, Can you give reference of book about that Hallaj anecdote.
I belong to Ismaili Firqah to whom you belong to. Namaz has nothing to do with black stone. During saying namaz direction should be to Ka'ba which was practiced by Prophet and Ali and Hasan and Hussain. Even HI faces Ka'ba in Namaz plenty of photos are available.

ismaili103 wrote:

Wow, you have good knowledge, of course there is no Ka'ba in Canada. There is ONLY one Ka'ba situated in Mecca and we can not equate with JK. I am unable to find any such quote in Fatimid Literature or in pro or post Alamout era litrature that jk = ka'ba. I have visited Canada quite few times and I know the numbers of Syrian Ismailis living in Ottawa or in Qubec . Over all they do not follow Satpunthi Tariqa and they do not consider JK is KA'BA.

Yes they are attending JK in Canada and I'm very happy for them that now they are performing 68 or 136 hajj pilgrimage everyday by attending JK.

And BTW who is saying that JK=Kaaba or JK is Kaaba, we are just saying JK is something GREATER THAN KAABA.

Is there any farman available by our Imam in which he mentioned that JK is greater or superior than Ka'ba. BTW Canadian syrian Ismailis are laughinG at your KNOWLEDGE and low IQ.

shivaathervedi wrote:BTW Canadian syrian Ismailis are laughinG at your KNOWLEDGE and low IQ.

Ok here we go again. How do you know that? Are you receiving revelation from your Wahabi sponsors? Do not deviate the issue. We are waiting for an answer. This Forum is not going to become the playing ground of the Wahabis.

shivaathervedi wrote:Is there any farman available by our Imam in which he mentioned that JK is greater or superior than Ka'ba. BTW Canadian syrian Ismailis are laughinG at your KNOWLEDGE and low IQ.

Do you think such a Farman can exist today given that MHI is building bridges with other Muslims. If they hear such a Farman they may even set our JKs to fire! Today our Ismaili Centers and new JKs are constructed to face Mecca although when you are inside JKs you would lose the sense of Mecca!

But indirectly one may infer that Ka'ba is not that important in prectical terms as we are not commanded to go there.