www.ismaili.net

Since Prophets and Imams are in human form in the world they act like human. But that does not mean they are sinful like ordinary human beings. You can see Prophet (PBUH) doing miracles such as of breaking moon in two parts. Yet on the other hands, he lived life like ordinary human.

So are you in agreement that imams[as] like prophets[as] do sin ??

When Prophets asked prayer for forgiveness, this was to make people learn, how to ask prayers when they make mistakes. It was to show, that human beings do commit mistakes and therefore they should pray for the forgiveness of their sins.This was to make people learn that God is most loving and forgive the sins, when people sincerely asked forgiveness from Him. As you know, Prophets did not only convey the divine message but their acts also provided guidelines for people to follow.

Prophets[as] and Imams[as] are the best of Men !!...But that doesnt mean that they cannot sin !!

Some times, there are certain acts of Prophets and Imams, which we can not comprehend. But that does not mean that they were/are wrong.

I think this is the typical ismaili thinking which I completely disagree brother....Im not saying you shouldnt believe what you believe in but I dont like the way when people come and justify any act committed by imams[as] in the past which might be not appropriate and then start justifying it.

Like the marriage of sir sultan muhammad shah aga khan with his cousin...its a fact !!!!.....Now people would stand up to defend the imams position and say imams[as] cannot marry their spiritual children, well he did !!! .... They are not actually defending the imam[as] but instead defending themselves and their way of thinking !!!

I dont think its a sin that an imam[as] cannot marry his spiritual children, if thats the case then the family of H.Adam[as] would have never multiplied !!!

So to those who stand up and say look shiraz virani is abusing imam[as]...Im not !! ....Im abusing those who have come up to this conclusion that imams[as] cannot marry their cousins[ahle bait] who accepted them as their imams[as]

Hazrat Ali, during his life made claim of infallibility. If you will read first sermon of Hazrat Abu Bakar, when he became caliph, he clearly said to the Muslims to follow him as along as he is acting according to Quran and Sunnah. He clearly said to people to correct him, incase if they find him wrong. This is what he said in the very first sermon after becoming caliph.
On the other hand, Hazrat Ali never said any thing like "incase if I am wrong"...Hazrat Ali said whatever he says is truth and that he is fountain of wisdom and knowledge.
What Hazrat Ali claimed in the battle of Siffin? When Mawviya's army hold copies of Quran asking to stop battle. Hazrat Ali said to continue fighting and even said "I am speaking Quran". At that time also, it was difficult for Muslims in general to understand it. However, Malik Ashtar and some others were ready to act according to what Imam said.
Quran = Word of God = infallible (I hope you agree)
Speaking Quran (Imam) is also infallible

Brother you are mixing oranges with apples here !!.....Speaking quran can also mean the one who interprets the quran...It doesnt necessary mean that we should forget the book quran now that we have speaking quran.....The job of an imam[as] is to guide his murids and he does that by interpreting faith which is nothing but interpreting the holy quran....There are sooooooooooooooooooo many times where you might have read Hazar Imam as saying his job is to interpret faith or interpret the holy quran ...that for me makes him Speaking Quran, because according to me , imams[as] are the interpretors of holy quran....Infact it was Hazar Imam who in one of his speeches [ I think it was in pakistan ] said that different people have different interpretation of quran which is the mercy of allah[swt] and beauty of quran e paak....so not only is Hazar Imam encouraging one and all to read quran but also understand it !!

In your previous post, you had mentioned that Quran says if there is any dispute refer to Allah or Prophet. The commands of Allah are there is Quran. Who can better understand Quran than Imam?

True, but you're still not getting it brother...How does that make him infallible ??

Holy Prophet (PBUH) said
“Verily The Holy Quran has been revealed on seven letters of which there is no letter which has not a Manifest and a Latent meaning. And Verily Ali ibne Abi Taleb, with him is the Manifest and the Latent of it.”
“He who leaves Ali leaves Me and he who leaves Me indeed leaves Allah.”
Nasir Khusraw said," I searched in the world for Tawil-e-Mutashabihat [The meaning of allegories of Holy Quran] but I could not find them any where except from Fatimid Caliph (Imam of that time)."

And this supports my arguement that imams[as] are the true interpretors of holy quran = Speaking quran

Mr. Virani,

As per all Shia sects including Ishanshari too believes that Imams doesn't make any mistakes because they are 'MASUM'. can you tell why you are not agree with them?

Thanks for not using any inappropriate language towards our Imam evern though you are heavily criticizing.

Brother I think I have already answered your question in my previous post....if you still dont get it you can alway PM me, you're always welcome !

As per brief history of Ismailism, there are two main school of thoughts among Muslims:
a) As per first group, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was an ordinary person. Apart from the divine revelation He received from Allah, his opinion or thinking was just like that of any person subject to error and He was not infallible.
B) As per second group Holy Prophet did not speak of His own desire except what Allah inspired Him, therefore He did not make any mistake and Prophet and Imams are infallible.

The difference between these groups have existed throughout the history and will remain so. Its certainly up to individuals what do they believe.

If you will see the context of the battle of Siffin, it will better help to understand the quote which Hazrat Ali said. In the battle his enemies were holding Quran on their hand. Hazrat Ali said this Quran can not speak, I am speaking Quran. (he did not say I am interpreting it. He said I am my self Quran which is able to talk). This signifies that whatever He says is infallible.

I agree with you that Imam interprets the Quran and religion as per the current times for us. However, I will disagree, if incase you believe that there can be any error in the interpretation which Imam makes.

Regarding acts of Prophet and Imam, I had already said, when they live in this world in human form they act like human. This is in interest of mankind.
As per Quran
Allah says, “And they say: Why does this Messenger (Muhammad) eat food, and walk about in the markets (as we)…?”
Another verse give answer of this:
‘If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, we should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger’”

Now since, Prophet and Imam are in human form, they act like human. They get formal education, eat and drink and do acts, some of which you can think as "error" which are actually not.

ok let me give another example, this time from Hinduism. Many Hindus believe "Raam" and "Krishna" as supreme God.
Now if you will read or watch Ramayan, you will be surprised
* When Sita was kidnapped by Ravan, Ram went to search where she was lost. After some time, some one told him that King of Lanka has kidnapped her. (Question: Being an incarnation of God, was He unaware of what has happened?)
* Ram went to receive education from teachers. In Ramayan, it is shown that he respected his teachers by touching their feet. (Isn't it strange that incarnation of divine paying so much respect to human being)
Note: on the other hand, you can see from this angle that it was to show mankind how to respect teachers and elders.
* Krishna, used to steal butter in childhood. While you may say "stealing is wrong act", but if you will ask any of your Hindu friends, they can better explain you, how was it good act in case of Krishna. When Krishna, in his childhood demonstrated miracle of Govardhan mountain, it was surprising that the same boy who live among them and play like a child could do such miracles.

Now coming back to Islam:

Have you not read that when Prophet was only 8 years old, there was drought in Mecca. When Hazrat Abu Talib said asked small children to pray for the rain. Hazrat Muhammad pointed just His finger towards sky and clouds emerged and there was rain.
I hope you would have heard about the miracles of breaking moon into two parts.
Even animals used to do sajda to him. Monk Bahira could see plants prostrating before Him, even before the declaration of prophethood.There are many such records in history. Its only humans who some times fail to recognise His status and authority.

At what age did Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah became Imam of the Ismailis? Do you know his age? A person, who will think him as "not infallible" would have doubt in a mind how can a small child (who is yet acquiring worldly and Islamic education) can guide them. But there was no place of any such doubt in the mind of believers who considered him infallible as He is bearer of Noor of Ali and Nabi.

Again as far as mistakes are concerned, let me tell you one more thing. From my childhood, I have been hearing there are so many scientific evidences and miracles in Quran. But once upon a time, I looked in anti Islamic website and I was surprised that the author of the website has remarked there are historical and scientific errors in Quran. You know, there are such websites, but as a believer of Quran, you will definitely say, that the author is not capable to understand Quran correctly (or whatever you would say to justify your point and deny the point of author). What I mean to say, if people can think themselves so smart to find out mistakes even from Holy Scriptures (which is certainly not smartness but I would rather say ignorance), so it is not surprising if people start thinking Prophet and Imam committing errors. Again, they can not understand these acts and the rational behind it.

As per brief history of Ismailism, there are two main school of thoughts among Muslims:
a) As per first group, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was an ordinary person. Apart from the divine revelation He received from Allah, his opinion or thinking was just like that of any person subject to error and He was not infallible.

B) As per second group Holy Prophet did not speak of His own desire except what Allah inspired Him, therefore He did not make any mistake and Prophet and Imams are infallible.

The difference between these groups have existed throughout the history and will remain so. Its certainly up to individuals what do they believe.

Exactly my point !!....Different people have different opinion !

If you will see the context of the battle of Siffin, it will better help to understand the quote which Hazrat Ali said. In the battle his enemies were holding Quran on their hand. Hazrat Ali said this Quran can not speak, I am speaking Quran. (he did not say I am interpreting it. He said I am my self Quran which is able to talk). This signifies that whatever He says is infallible.

Yes but if only the so called supporters of Imam Ali[as] would have listened to what sher e khuda was saying, Islam wouldnt be in such a mess !! ....Unfortunately nobody listened to what he said [even thought he is a speaking quran in literal sense for you] and the battle was ended.

I agree with you that Imam interprets the Quran and religion as per the current times for us. However, I will disagree, if incase you believe that there can be any error in the interpretation which Imam makes.

Regarding acts of Prophet and Imam, I had already said, when they live in this world in human form they act like human. This is in interest of mankind.
As per Quran
Allah says, “And they say: Why does this Messenger (Muhammad) eat food, and walk about in the markets (as we)…?”
Another verse give answer of this:
‘If there were on the earth, angels walking about in peace and security, we should certainly have sent down for them from the heaven an angel as a Messenger’”

Now since, Prophet and Imam are in human form, they act like human. They get formal education, eat and drink and do acts, some of which you can think as "error" which are actually not.

ok let me give another example, this time from Hinduism. Many Hindus believe "Raam" and "Krishna" as supreme God.
Now if you will read or watch Ramayan, you will be surprised
* When Sita was kidnapped by Ravan, Ram went to search where she was lost. After some time, some one told him that King of Lanka has kidnapped her. (Question: Being an incarnation of God, was He unaware of what has happened?)
* Ram went to receive education from teachers. In Ramayan, it is shown that he respected his teachers by touching their feet. (Isn't it strange that incarnation of divine paying so much respect to human being)
Note: on the other hand, you can see from this angle that it was to show mankind how to respect teachers and elders.
* Krishna, used to steal butter in childhood. While you may say "stealing is wrong act", but if you will ask any of your Hindu friends, they can better explain you, how was it good act in case of Krishna. When Krishna, in his childhood demonstrated miracle of Govardhan mountain, it was surprising that the same boy who live among them and play like a child could do such miracles.

I think I already said that by errors I meant the mistakes that they commit in their day to day life...Like Rasool[saw] getting angry at the poor blind man and so on

Now coming back to Islam:

Have you not read that when Prophet was only 8 years old, there was drought in Mecca. When Hazrat Abu Talib said asked small children to pray for the rain. Hazrat Muhammad pointed just His finger towards sky and clouds emerged and there was rain.
I hope you would have heard about the miracles of breaking moon into two parts.
Even animals used to do sajda to him. Monk Bahira could see plants prostrating before Him, even before the declaration of prophethood.There are many such records in history. Its only humans who some times fail to recognise His status and authority.

And I think you might read in holy quran that it wasnt rasool[saw] but allah[swt] who performed all those miracles so that people should believe that rasool[saw] is a rasool[saw] of allah[swt] and not some fake

You might have read in the same holy quran that H.Issa[as] started taking as an infant...and all the miracles that he used to perform were actually performed by allah[swt] again mentioned in holy quran

The stick of H.Musa[as] and the splitting of the river again was done by allah[swt]

The boat of Nuh[as] and the great flood again was done by allah[swt]

Prophet suleman[as] and his power to control wind was again gifted by allah[swt]

H.Dawood and his gifted voice to which even animals used to come running was again given by allah[swt]

Everything was/is done by allah[swt] so that people should follow what rasool[saw] or any prophets[as] [for that matter] teach them....Spiritually they cannot make any mistake for their job is to convey the message...No doubt about that...but when it comes to material life, you and me have a different take on this !!

At what age did Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah became Imam of the Ismailis? Do you know his age? A person, who will think him as "not infallible" would have doubt in a mind how can a small child (who is yet acquiring worldly and Islamic education) can guide them. But there was no place of any such doubt in the mind of believers who considered him infallible as He is bearer of Noor of Ali and Nabi.

Yes and when I did some research I realised that the person who was behind our imam and all his decision making was his mother.....Every decision that he used to make[as a child] was done only after consulting his mother....Even his religious education carried on under the presence of his mother ....Mata Salamat [Shamsul- Muluk]

Now that doesnt mean that Im against our 48th imam...Its just that whenever we give credit we should also remember the work carried on by his mother who was always behind the scenes.

Again as far as mistakes are concerned, let me tell you one more thing. From my childhood, I have been hearing there are so many scientific evidences and miracles in Quran. But once upon a time, I looked in anti Islamic website and I was surprised that the author of the website has remarked there are historical and scientific errors in Quran. You know, there are such websites, but as a believer of Quran, you will definitely say, that the author is not capable to understand Quran correctly (or whatever you would say to justify your point and deny the point of author). What I mean to say, if people can think themselves so smart to find out mistakes even from Holy Scriptures (which is certainly not smartness but I would rather say ignorance), so it is not surprising if people start thinking Prophet and Imam committing errors. Again, they can not understand these acts and the rational behind it.

See just like you munir bhai, just like how you think quran might have some errors ...I believe Imams[as] can make errors too !!

Lets just agree to disagree brother munir !

I think there is misunderstanding here:

Quran can never be wrong or with mistake, only compilation by humans can be faulty. Do not forget the compilation that we read today did not exist when Allah ordained: "Today I have perfected your religion"

@ Shiraz, I have not written that there are errors in Quran. I have said, anti Islamic website points out at that (you may re-read my point again). What I meant to say, people some times consider any thing as "error" which they simply can not understand.
Anyways I agree with what admin has commented on it.

As for errors you have clarified you meant to say mistakes in day to day life and not in spiritual guidance right? In response to that, I have given my view that when Prophets and Imam live as human so they act like human but these acts or mistakes were/are not unintentional as in the case of ordinary people but there is rational or purpose behind it. The purpose may be giving examples to mankind or other purposes as I had given example of disobedience of Hazrat Adam.

You had given some good examples of miracles of Prophets mentioned in Quran. If Jesus as an infant can speak as per will of God, then why do you think Imam will take help from his mother for getting ideas of what to speak? If you will read Memoirs of Aga Khan, you will find that He was not at all impressed with the teacher responsible for his religious education. He disagreed with the point of views given by the teacher responsible for his religious guidance.

Btw I agree with you that miracles performed by the Prophets were actually performed by Allah as you said. But again, the difference in our view is that I would say they could do because they were bearer of Noor-e-Nabuwat. In Buj Nirinjan Pir Sadardin has said "Nabi's Noor is none other than God's".

As for Noor..I agree with you, some times it can mean Divine guidance. But there are other interpretations too which can be used in different context. Aab-e-Shafa that you drink in JK is also some times called as "Noor". The divine light of God is Noor. As per Surah Noor Allah is the Noor of heavens and earth. In many traditions of Prophet, it is mentioned that Noor of Nabi Muhammad and Hazrat Ali was there long before creation.

Yes, we can agree to disagree on certain matters. Your point of views are respected.

May our beloved current Imam, Mowlana Shah Karim Hazar Imam (s.a.) live 100 years and his imamat may become longest imamat in history of Ismaili imams and Inshallah we Ismailis may become fortunate to celebrate his Diamond and Platinum Jubillees too, b] but one day he has to go, can any one tell; who will be our next imam after him?
1, Prince Rahim,
2, Prince Hussain
3, Prince Ali Mohammad

Nobody can exactly tell that but everybody can 'GUESS' and my guess is Prince Rahim will be next imam Please remember, this is just my own guess and I may be wrong.

*I have not written that there are errors in Quran.

*Quran can never be wrong or with mistake, only compilation by humans can be faulty.

I don't agree with above quotes, in my opinion the current Quran is not an errorless or faultless Quran because it has been changed and omitted many times.
Many Shia and Sunny scholars also accept that the current Quran has been changed many times. some scholars also believes that the current Quran is not in its original shape that original shape/condition which was first reveled on Prophet Mohammad [pbuh]! according them the current Quran has been changed many times after the death of Prophet (s.a.), so if you believe that current Quran is unchanged or errorless then that is your mistakes, they gives many reasons for that first reason they give is addition and deletion in Quranic ayahs.
According them the first change was made by Hazarat Umar during his caliphates after H.Umar big and killer changes made by Muawiya and Yazid. For that Muawiaya and Yazid hired some ulemas to make changes in ayahs, history revels that they started to pay them monthly salary to make changes in Quran according their opinions(!!!) and those ulemas deleted some ayahs which were depicted Hazarat Ali (s.a.) and new fallacious ayahs were totally wrong and were favoring Abbasi caliphs added in Quran.
Now back to the point:

Let believe for second that current Quran is errorless Quran (doubtful though) but.. Now answer my following Question if you think current Quran is unchanged or errorless:-
* As written above, many scholars accepted that the current Quran has been changed, deleted, omitted and added many times, so how do you accept the current Quran is unchanged or it is in its origibnal condition?
* How any one can say that current Quran is errorless Quran when SMS also quoted many times Farmans that quran has been changed and current Quran is 'MULLAH'S QURAN'
* Do you know that a goat abrogated some quranic ayahs?
* What about those ayahs which were eaten and digested by a goat?
* Did any one killed that goat and recovered those eaten, chewed and digested ayahs from the stomach or intestine of a goat?
* Were these ayahs remained in good shape?
* Does these ayahs are included in current Quran?
* Where are those 10 missing Paras of Quran?
Therefore many scholars including myself doesn't accept current Quran as a complete, unchanged or errorless Quran.
This topics has been discussed many times before but because of above two quotes I just disclosed my comments.

Ya Ali Madad to all,
In my opinion there is no need to worry about who will be Imam in future. We are lucky and fortunate to have such loving Imam and it does not seems appropriate to assume or discuss who will be the next. Whoever will be after him should not matter to us as the Noor of Imam will remain same.

As I mentioned earlier to Shiraz, often people misunderstand and misinterpret the acts of Imam, they make false assumptions.
As per KIM volume 1, once Imam was going to visit Karbala, some of the jamati members started gossiping that Imam is going to visit the shrine of Imam Hussain. Imam at once clarified this in Farman that he was not planning to go there for visiting the shrine of Imam Hussain but there are other purposes of visit. He told jamat Imam Hussain is right in front of them. If you read Farmans, the concept of Noor is very well explained in different Farmans.


Given below are translation of the verses of Moman Chetamni by Syed Imam Shah:

Those who will not trust Ali and will continue to go the way they will
and will think their own intellect to be superior, these people will never have internal peace. (verse 60)

620. Do not look at what Ali does, but obey what He says, for as the times
will change Ali's actions may be beyond your comprehension. (Verse 620)


Ali's actions are beyond comprehension for many. Some times it is difficult to comprehend Farmans also. But this is not some thing new. During the time of Hazrat Ali also, there were people who thought he is lying. Hazrat Ali said “…I never lied against anybody. The fact is that for most of you, what I speak and what the Holy Prophet has said is beyond your understanding and conception. I am distributing heavenly knowledge and do not want any price for it, provided if you try to understand and grasp it.” (Khutba Number 74, Nahjul Balagh)

@ Shiraz Virani: If you think when Hazrat Ali said "I am speaking Quran" he meant to say "interpreting Quran"...then I would like to share with you that in one of the sermons He said "I am supreme Kalam" He also said "I am the creator. I give birth to the word". I am sharing you the link, with the portrait of Hazrat Ali and what he said. Reference is also given there.
http://heritage.ismaili.net/gallery/Haz ... oto_6.html

@ agakhani with regards to the compilation of Quran, I believe in what Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah and Pir Shahbuddin Shah has mentioned. It does not matter what other Sunni or Shia scholar talks about it. As far as I know, the final compilation was done during the time of Caliph Usman only. I have never heard about Hazrat Umar. Yes I know, Caliph Abu Bakar had compiled it and had kept with himself, which was then passed on to Hazrat Hafsa. The text from Hazrat Hafsa was taken by Caliph Usman and he set standard dialect and sent the copies to different places. I dont think, there were any changes by Mavya, Yazeed or any one else in the text after final compilation was done by Caliph Usman. Other copies were burnt to prevent possibility of different versions evolving in time.

I know, this topic has been discussed several times and I had shared my view there.

Actually, I did not intend to change the current point of discussion with Shiraz, dragging him towards another topic. What I meant to say him was Hazrat Ali said "I am speaking Quran" Quran = words of God therefore infallible. Similarly words of Speaking Quran (Ali) are also infallible. My comment was on the Quran as "Word of God" and not on the book which was compiled by "Man"

I did not mean to start a new topic of discussion over here.
However, if you have further details and view points about the compilation of Quran as you mentioned in your previous post, you may share it under those topics, so we will further discuss.

In my opinion there is no need to worry about who will be Imam in future.

That is right Munir,

Whichever son our current Imam will choose from his 3 sons will be our next imam, that is as simple as this, but in my opinion if some one guess then it is not against our faith, it is just guessing. ye to aagu se chali aati bat hai bhaijan

Do you know that there were big blind gossip went out during the time of SMS' Imamat, who will be next Imam after SMS? lot of jamati members were thinking that Prince Ali Khan will be the next imam, lots of jamati members were thinking Prince Sadaruddin will be, even some Jamati members were thinking about Prince Amin Mohammad but they all proved wrong.
So if some one guess who will be our next Imam then it is nothing wrong, it was not prohibited before and it is not prohibited now and it is not against our faith or tariqua and also it has nothing to do with our Iman towards our beloved Imam, it is just a guessing.

My comment was on the Quran as "Word of God" and not on the book which was compiled by "Man"

وہ منیر وہ بھجان اپنے ایک ہی جملے مے بھوت سری بہاتے بتادی، سمجنے والو کے لئے اشارہ کافی ہے.

By the way, if you really want to know what changes Hazarat Umar made then give me some more time, I will definitely put it here, FYI if you listen waez of Rai Saheb then you can also find that change made by H.Umar.

Yes, you are right that people had made guesses during the time of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah that Prince Aly would be next Imam. However, Imam appointed his grandson Shah Karim, as Imam after him.
With regards to the changes done by Caliph Umar, its ok you may post whenever you get time for it.

According them the first change was made by Hazarat Umar during his caliphates

I also like to know what changes Hazarat Umar made in Quran?

Changes made by H.Umar ??....I dont think so because during the of H.Uthman as munir bhai rightly said all the scribbling and whatever was there was burned by H.Uthman after the compilation of holy quran so that people shouldnt make any changes after that...But as munir bhai and Mr.Forget said I would also like to know what changes were made during the time of H.Umar ?

Changes made by H.Umar ??....

Yes H.Umar made many changes.

Matter of fact Hazarar Umar made 45 different small and big changes in Shari'a and in Quran, according a well know Muslim scholar Mowlana Shibli Numani in his famous book 'AL FAROOQ"
It is a long list to put here but followings are the main 3 changes H.Umar made in Quran after the death of prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
1, In Tallaq
2, In Jakat
3, In Ajan

For more detail please review book 'AL FAROOQ' & 'TARIKH E TABARI and Shia websites.'.

Agakhani
here but followings are the main 3 changes H.Umar made in Quran after the death of prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
1, In Tallaq
2, In Jakat
3, In Ajan

Adhan is not mentioned in Qur’an but please elaborate changes made by Hz Umar
Zakat is mentioned many times in Qur'an but percentage is not mentioned in Qur’an.

Please list changes made in Qur’an by Hz Umar and please explain why Hz Ali did not correct it when he was Khalif for whole Umah for nearly six year?

agakhani wrote:Changes made by H.Umar ??....

Yes H.Umar made many changes.

Matter of fact Hazarar Umar made 45 different small and big changes in Shari'a and in Quran, according a well know Muslim scholar Mowlana Shibli Numani in his famous book 'AL FAROOQ"
It is a long list to put here but followings are the main 3 changes H.Umar made in Quran after the death of prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
1, In Tallaq
2, In Jakat
3, In Ajan

For more detail please review book 'AL FAROOQ' & 'TARIKH E TABARI and Shia websites.'.

I think now I understood what you meant to say. There were certain changes introduced by Hazrat Umar during his reign in implementation of Shariat. But He did not make changes in the text of Quran. Yes, in implementation of Islamic laws, some changes were introduced, which were thought of as necessary requirement for that time by him.
@zznoor....I have heard that one sentence was added in azan by him which says to recite namaz is better than to sleep.

star_munir wrote:

agakhani wrote:Changes made by H.Umar ??....

Yes H.Umar made many changes.

Matter of fact Hazarar Umar made 45 different small and big changes in Shari'a and in Quran, according a well know Muslim scholar Mowlana Shibli Numani in his famous book 'AL FAROOQ"
It is a long list to put here but followings are the main 3 changes H.Umar made in Quran after the death of prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
1, In Tallaq
2, In Jakat
3, In Ajan

For more detail please review book 'AL FAROOQ' & 'TARIKH E TABARI and Shia websites.'.

I think now I understood what you meant to say. There were certain changes introduced by Hazrat Umar during his reign in implementation of Shariat. But He did not make changes in the text of Quran. Yes, in implementation of Islamic laws, some changes were introduced, which were thought of as necessary requirement for that time by him.
@zznoor....I have heard that one sentence was added in azan by him which says to recite namaz is better than to sleep.

There are farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah that address this issue in Kalame Imame Mubin.

Shams

Star_Munir posted
@zznoor....I have heard that one sentence was added in azan by him which says to recite namaz is better than to sleep.

Brother;
Please do not speculate. Reliable information is available on the net. Google and you will get it. Let me say this that Adhan is to invite people for prayers and phrase added for Fajar Namaz is to emphasize that prayer is better then sleeping.
L ong discussion is not warranted here. The thread is "MHI and next Imam".

Agakhani
There are farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah that address this issue in Kalame Imame Mubin

.

And what does it say?

There are farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah that address this issue in Kalame Imame Mubin.

Shams,
Thanks for sending very informative farmans earlier, I know you are busy but I will highly appreciate if you kindly forward this farmans as well or refer the places or dates where those farmans were delivered, so that I can look it in KIM by myself. To keep it confidential I request you to please shoot me an e-mail.

I think now I understood what you meant to say. There were certain changes introduced by Hazrat Umar during his reign in implementation of Shariat. But He did not make changes in the text of Quran. Y

Munir,
I should had to write in my very first post that the changes made by Umar in sharia and rules and regulations during his reign as Caliph along with Quran, thanks for pointing out my mistakes but as long as the changes made in Quran is concerned then I request you to search in Shia sources and I am pretty sure that you may able to find what exactly changes H.Umar made in quran? and why those changes were made by him?, it is true that those changes were not as many in comparison of H.Usman and Muawiya and Yazid but.... you will sure find that, you can also look in KIM as brother Shams suggested.

ZZnoor,

Agakhani
There are farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah that address this issue in Kalame Imame Mubin
.

And what does it say?

Actually above post has been written by brother Shams not by me.
But for your kind information, it is against Ismaili.net website's policy to print any farmans in this forum.

Agakhani Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:03 am
But for your kind information, it is against Ismaili.net website's policy to print any farmans in this forum.

Not always true. In thread “Is Quran complete?” in Forum “Doctrine”. Certain Ismaili Brothers have posted Farmans. Perhaps they are trustee of this web site so they are permitted to post farmans.

Agakhani Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:26 am
Munir
------------but as long as the changes made in Quran is concerned then I request you to search in Shia sources and I am pretty sure that you may able to find what exactly changes H.Umar made in quran? and why those changes were made by him?, it is true that those changes were not as many in comparison of H.Usman and Muawiya and Yazid but.... you will sure find that, you can also look in KIM as brother Shams suggested.

No need since there are 11 electronic pages of material posted on thread “Is Quran complete?” in “Doctrine” section on this web site.

My humble request to Respected Ismaili Brothers:

Present day Sunni Muslim and Shia Muslim leaders of all sects (including HI Prince Karim Aga Khan) have accepted authenticity of Qur’an Sharif without any reservations. I humbly request all of you to stop this canard of tempering of Qur’an unless you have proof of it. Uthman Codex is preserved and exists in Museums. Hz Ali probably heard this version of codex recited many times during Uthman’s and his own Khalifat. There is not a single recorded authentic Hadith from him regarding changes in Qur’an.

I read that this web site believes in and promotes pluralism. It is about time to “put up or shut up” as far as tempering of our holy book Qur’an Sharif is concerned.

zznoor wrote:

Agakhani Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:03 am
But for your kind information, it is against Ismaili.net website's policy to print any farmans in this forum.

Not always true. In thread “Is Quran complete?” in Forum “Doctrine”. Certain Ismaili Brothers have posted Farmans. Perhaps they are trustee of this web site so they are permitted to post farmans.

Agakhani Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:26 am
Munir
------------but as long as the changes made in Quran is concerned then I request you to search in Shia sources and I am pretty sure that you may able to find what exactly changes H.Umar made in quran? and why those changes were made by him?, it is true that those changes were not as many in comparison of H.Usman and Muawiya and Yazid but.... you will sure find that, you can also look in KIM as brother Shams suggested.

No need since there are 11 electronic pages of material posted on thread “Is Quran complete?” in “Doctrine” section on this web site.

My humble request to Respected Ismaili Brothers:

Present day Sunni Muslim and Shia Muslim leaders of all sects (including HI Prince Karim Aga Khan) have accepted authenticity of Qur’an Sharif without any reservations. I humbly request all of you to stop this canard of tempering of Qur’an unless you have proof of it. Uthman Codex is preserved and exists in Museums. Hz Ali probably heard this version of codex recited many times during Uthman’s and his own Khalifat. There is not a single recorded authentic Hadith from him regarding changes in Qur’an.

I read that this web site believes in and promotes pluralism. It is about time to “put up or shut up” as far as tempering of our holy book Qur’an Sharif is concerned.

yeah..your argument - flawed....
you have a doctrinal farman of the Imam contradicting your statement...
Hazar Imam has been specific in many farmans about studying PARTS of the QURAN - or in the recent Dar es Salaam GJ Irshad - about the Shia Interpretations of the Quran.

Please stop spreading sunnism - and spouting sunni propoganda ...
incase you forgot ..we are SHIA...talk to some ithna asheri scholars - ulema..and get their veiwpoint...
check out wikipedia...

also...do a google search on the Yemeni Manuscript.

Seems like you've already made up your mind to disregard the Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah and Hazar Imam...so I am not surprised you're making the statement you made...

in one statement you state pluralism and in the other..you ask us to put up or shut up..
well we have put up...now you may shut up..

we didn't bring up this discussion you did....

you want to follow the quran as is..go for it..
i will follow what the Imam says.

Shams

Munir,
I should had to write in my very first post that the changes made by Umar in sharia and rules and regulations during his reign as Caliph along with Quran, thanks for pointing out my mistakes but as long as the changes made in Quran is concerned then I request you to search in Shia sources and I am pretty sure that you may able to find what exactly changes H.Umar made in quran? and why those changes were made by him?, it is true that those changes were not as many in comparison of H.Usman and Muawiya and Yazid but.... you will sure find that, you can also look in KIM as brother Shams suggested.

What exact changes did he made in quran brother ??

@ Shams,
Ya Ali Madad Shams,
There are 3 or may be more Farmans in KIM, which addresses this issue and even Pir Shahbuddin Shah has mentioned about it. Every thing is quite clear from Farmans for sure but as far as I remember in KIM, only the name of "Usman" is there when compilation of Quran is concerned. I dont think name of any other caliph or person is specifically mentioned. If name of "Umar" has appeared any where in Farman, then kindly let me know.


@ AgaKhani
You may be right about it. The reason I disagree with you on this is because as per history, the final compilation was done by Usman only, after which other copies were burnt out. Before him, Abu bakar had compiled a book, which he kept with him self only and after him the book went in the hands of Hazrat Hafsa, who was wife of Holy Prophet (PBUH). During the reign of caliph Umar, much time was spent on expansion of Islamic state and I dont think he compiled any book of Quran or edited the text which was already compiled by Abubakar.
Whether it is Sunni or Shia books, both accept that for many important problems, he used to consult Hazrat Ali for help. He himself had said it on few occasions “O Ali ! Had you not been here we would have suffered a disgrace.” and "Had there not been Ali, Umar would have perished." One of this quote is mentioned in Noorum Mubin as well.

@ Zznoor,
You had asked the change and I had mentioned the sentence which he added. If you read my post, I had written exactly the same thing. I did not intend to make long discussion on it as I was not judgmental about his act.
Btw though you have counted "11" pages of discussion in topic "Is Quran Complete?" But I dont think you have bothered to read it, otherwise you would certainly not repeat the same arguments, which were already raised there. You said there is no single recorded authentic hadith regarding it. What do you mean by "authentic"? Sahi Bukhari, which is considered most authentic books by Sunni Muslims, mention this several times.

Request to all: Lets not make this thread a discussion for this topic. If there is any new point or additional information, kindly continue it on the relevant section.

ShamsB Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:12 pm

Please stop spreading sunnism - and spouting sunni propoganda ...
incase you forgot ..we are SHIA...talk to some ithna asheri scholars - ulema..and get their veiwpoint...
check out wikipedia...

Shia view of the Quran
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Shi‘ah view of the Qur'an has some differences from the Sunni view, but the text of the Qur'an is exactly identical.

History

The Shi‘ah use the same Qur'an as Sunni Muslims , however they do not believe that it was first compiled by Uthman ibn Affan The Shi‘ah believe that the Qur'an was gathered and compiled by Muhammad during his lifetime. This completed version of the Qur'an was kept next to the pulpit of Muhammad within the Mosque of Madinah, where scholars would come to transcribe more copies.

Tafsir

The Shia differ on several verses are different from the traditional Sunni view either through a totally different interpretation or by giving the same interpretation, but giving that interpretation a larger impact on their jurisprudence.

zznoor wrote:

ShamsB Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:12 pm

Please stop spreading sunnism - and spouting sunni propoganda ...
incase you forgot ..we are SHIA...talk to some ithna asheri scholars - ulema..and get their veiwpoint...
check out wikipedia...

Shia view of the Quran
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Shi‘ah view of the Qur'an has some differences from the Sunni view, but the text of the Qur'an is exactly identical.

History

The Shi‘ah use the same Qur'an as Sunni Muslims , however they do not believe that it was first compiled by Uthman ibn Affan The Shi‘ah believe that the Qur'an was gathered and compiled by Muhammad during his lifetime. This completed version of the Qur'an was kept next to the pulpit of Muhammad within the Mosque of Madinah, where scholars would come to transcribe more copies.

Tafsir

The Shia differ on several verses are different from the traditional Sunni view either through a totally different interpretation or by giving the same interpretation, but giving that interpretation a larger impact on their jurisprudence.

Thanks for making my point - the compilation made by the prophet and also by Ali was chronological - not arranged or organized in the form it is today.

Here is what it wikipedia says when it comes to Hazrat Ali:

"Ali compiled a complete version of the Quran, mus'haf,[67] six months after the death of Muhammad. The volume was completed and carried by camel to show to other people of Medina. The order of this mus'haf differed from that which was gathered later during the Uthmanic era. This book was rejected by several people when he showed it to them. Despite this, Ali made no resistance against standardized mus'haf.[68]"

note - COMPLETE - if you actually read some historical accounts - Hazrat Ali presented this compilation to Uthman to be used when Uthman was putting together his compilation - Uthman rejected it (historians and recorders at the time - point to the politics of the time to forcing that decision - as the complete version of the Quran - pointed very clearly to the succession and position of Ali - and accepting it would have been legitimizing Ali and delegitimizing his own actions and the actions of the 2 caliphs before him)...
Tabari (I will have to check my sources) who is a sunni scholar records along with a few other sources ..Ali's response to Uthman...that this complete Quran will stay with Ali and his progeny until the day of Qiyamah..and only then will it come out.

Once again - all of your arguments are moot, null and void to me..because the Imams have made many farmans in regards to this...now it is upto you to follow or not follow....

The supremacy of the Imam is what Shi'ism is all about..

No Imam - no Shi'ism....

And if you really are interested in learning - go talk to an Isna Aseri Ulema in regards to the Quran and you will get a very different perspective..but alas - I feel you've made up your mind..

and as I've stated before - you talk about pluralism...you can have your belief..and i/we can have ours.

Ya Ali Madad.

Shams

Once again - all of your arguments are moot, null and void to me..because the Imams have made many farmans in regards to this...now it is upto you to follow or not follow....

The supremacy of the Imam is what Shi'ism is all about..

No Imam - no Shi'ism....

That wraps it up.

We will have further discussion when somebody finds uncurrapted Qur'an or Imam decides to reveal his version.

Inshah Allah