Joined: 07 May 2008 Posts: 1144 Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:04 am Post subject:
Changes made by H.Umar ??....
Yes H.Umar made many changes.
Matter of fact Hazarar Umar made 45 different small and big changes in Shari'a and in Quran, according a well know Muslim scholar Mowlana Shibli Numani in his famous book 'AL FAROOQ"
It is a long list to put here but followings are the main 3 changes H.Umar made in Quran after the death of prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
1, In Tallaq
2, In Jakat
3, In Ajan
For more detail please review book 'AL FAROOQ' & 'TARIKH E TABARI and Shia websites.'.
Agakhani
here but followings are the main 3 changes H.Umar made in Quran after the death of prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
1, In Tallaq
2, In Jakat
3, In Ajan
Adhan is not mentioned in Qur’an but please elaborate changes made by Hz Umar
Zakat is mentioned many times in Qur'an but percentage is not mentioned in Qur’an.
Please list changes made in Qur’an by Hz Umar and please explain why Hz Ali did not correct it when he was Khalif for whole Umah for nearly six year?
Matter of fact Hazarar Umar made 45 different small and big changes in Shari'a and in Quran, according a well know Muslim scholar Mowlana Shibli Numani in his famous book 'AL FAROOQ"
It is a long list to put here but followings are the main 3 changes H.Umar made in Quran after the death of prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
1, In Tallaq
2, In Jakat
3, In Ajan
For more detail please review book 'AL FAROOQ' & 'TARIKH E TABARI and Shia websites.'.
I think now I understood what you meant to say. There were certain changes introduced by Hazrat Umar during his reign in implementation of Shariat. But He did not make changes in the text of Quran. Yes, in implementation of Islamic laws, some changes were introduced, which were thought of as necessary requirement for that time by him.
@zznoor....I have heard that one sentence was added in azan by him which says to recite namaz is better than to sleep.
Matter of fact Hazarar Umar made 45 different small and big changes in Shari'a and in Quran, according a well know Muslim scholar Mowlana Shibli Numani in his famous book 'AL FAROOQ"
It is a long list to put here but followings are the main 3 changes H.Umar made in Quran after the death of prophet Mohammad [pbuh]
1, In Tallaq
2, In Jakat
3, In Ajan
For more detail please review book 'AL FAROOQ' & 'TARIKH E TABARI and Shia websites.'.
I think now I understood what you meant to say. There were certain changes introduced by Hazrat Umar during his reign in implementation of Shariat. But He did not make changes in the text of Quran. Yes, in implementation of Islamic laws, some changes were introduced, which were thought of as necessary requirement for that time by him.
@zznoor....I have heard that one sentence was added in azan by him which says to recite namaz is better than to sleep.
There are farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah that address this issue in Kalame Imame Mubin.
Star_Munir posted
@zznoor....I have heard that one sentence was added in azan by him which says to recite namaz is better than to sleep.
Brother;
Please do not speculate. Reliable information is available on the net. Google and you will get it. Let me say this that Adhan is to invite people for prayers and phrase added for Fajar Namaz is to emphasize that prayer is better then sleeping.
L ong discussion is not warranted here. The thread is "MHI and next Imam".
Quote:
Agakhani
There are farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah that address this issue in Kalame Imame Mubin
Joined: 07 May 2008 Posts: 1144 Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:09 am Post subject:
Quote:
There are farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah that address this issue in Kalame Imame Mubin.
Shams,
Thanks for sending very informative farmans earlier, I know you are busy but I will highly appreciate if you kindly forward this farmans as well or refer the places or dates where those farmans were delivered, so that I can look it in KIM by myself. To keep it confidential I request you to please shoot me an e-mail.
Last edited by agakhani on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total
Joined: 07 May 2008 Posts: 1144 Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:26 am Post subject:
Quote:
I think now I understood what you meant to say. There were certain changes introduced by Hazrat Umar during his reign in implementation of Shariat. But He did not make changes in the text of Quran. Y
Munir,
I should had to write in my very first post that the changes made by Umar in sharia and rules and regulations during his reign as Caliph along with Quran, thanks for pointing out my mistakes but as long as the changes made in Quran is concerned then I request you to search in Shia sources and I am pretty sure that you may able to find what exactly changes H.Umar made in quran? and why those changes were made by him?, it is true that those changes were not as many in comparison of H.Usman and Muawiya and Yazid but.... you will sure find that, you can also look in KIM as brother Shams suggested.
Joined: 07 May 2008 Posts: 1144 Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:03 am Post subject:
ZZnoor,
Quote:
Agakhani
There are farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah that address this issue in Kalame Imame Mubin
.
And what does it say?
Actually above post has been written by brother Shams not by me.
But for your kind information, it is against Ismaili.net website's policy to print any farmans in this forum.
Agakhani Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:03 am
But for your kind information, it is against Ismaili.net website's policy to print any farmans in this forum.
Not always true. In thread “Is Quran complete?” in Forum “Doctrine”. Certain Ismaili Brothers have posted Farmans. Perhaps they are trustee of this web site so they are permitted to post farmans.
Quote:
Agakhani Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:26 am
Munir
------------but as long as the changes made in Quran is concerned then I request you to search in Shia sources and I am pretty sure that you may able to find what exactly changes H.Umar made in quran? and why those changes were made by him?, it is true that those changes were not as many in comparison of H.Usman and Muawiya and Yazid but.... you will sure find that, you can also look in KIM as brother Shams suggested.
No need since there are 11 electronic pages of material posted on thread “Is Quran complete?” in “Doctrine” section on this web site.
My humble request to Respected Ismaili Brothers:
Present day Sunni Muslim and Shia Muslim leaders of all sects (including HI Prince Karim Aga Khan) have accepted authenticity of Qur’an Sharif without any reservations. I humbly request all of you to stop this canard of tempering of Qur’an unless you have proof of it. Uthman Codex is preserved and exists in Museums. Hz Ali probably heard this version of codex recited many times during Uthman’s and his own Khalifat. There is not a single recorded authentic Hadith from him regarding changes in Qur’an.
I read that this web site believes in and promotes pluralism. It is about time to “put up or shut up” as far as tempering of our holy book Qur’an Sharif is concerned.
Agakhani Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:03 am
But for your kind information, it is against Ismaili.net website's policy to print any farmans in this forum.
Not always true. In thread “Is Quran complete?” in Forum “Doctrine”. Certain Ismaili Brothers have posted Farmans. Perhaps they are trustee of this web site so they are permitted to post farmans.
Quote:
Agakhani Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:26 am
Munir
------------but as long as the changes made in Quran is concerned then I request you to search in Shia sources and I am pretty sure that you may able to find what exactly changes H.Umar made in quran? and why those changes were made by him?, it is true that those changes were not as many in comparison of H.Usman and Muawiya and Yazid but.... you will sure find that, you can also look in KIM as brother Shams suggested.
No need since there are 11 electronic pages of material posted on thread “Is Quran complete?” in “Doctrine” section on this web site.
My humble request to Respected Ismaili Brothers:
Present day Sunni Muslim and Shia Muslim leaders of all sects (including HI Prince Karim Aga Khan) have accepted authenticity of Qur’an Sharif without any reservations. I humbly request all of you to stop this canard of tempering of Qur’an unless you have proof of it. Uthman Codex is preserved and exists in Museums. Hz Ali probably heard this version of codex recited many times during Uthman’s and his own Khalifat. There is not a single recorded authentic Hadith from him regarding changes in Qur’an.
I read that this web site believes in and promotes pluralism. It is about time to “put up or shut up” as far as tempering of our holy book Qur’an Sharif is concerned.
yeah..your argument - flawed....
you have a doctrinal farman of the Imam contradicting your statement...
Hazar Imam has been specific in many farmans about studying PARTS of the QURAN - or in the recent Dar es Salaam GJ Irshad - about the Shia Interpretations of the Quran.
Please stop spreading sunnism - and spouting sunni propoganda ...
incase you forgot ..we are SHIA...talk to some ithna asheri scholars - ulema..and get their veiwpoint...
check out wikipedia...
also...do a google search on the Yemeni Manuscript.
Seems like you've already made up your mind to disregard the Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah and Hazar Imam...so I am not surprised you're making the statement you made...
in one statement you state pluralism and in the other..you ask us to put up or shut up..
well we have put up...now you may shut up..
we didn't bring up this discussion you did....
you want to follow the quran as is..go for it..
i will follow what the Imam says.
Munir,
I should had to write in my very first post that the changes made by Umar in sharia and rules and regulations during his reign as Caliph along with Quran, thanks for pointing out my mistakes but as long as the changes made in Quran is concerned then I request you to search in Shia sources and I am pretty sure that you may able to find what exactly changes H.Umar made in quran? and why those changes were made by him?, it is true that those changes were not as many in comparison of H.Usman and Muawiya and Yazid but.... you will sure find that, you can also look in KIM as brother Shams suggested.
What exact changes did he made in quran brother ??
@ Shams,
Ya Ali Madad Shams,
There are 3 or may be more Farmans in KIM, which addresses this issue and even Pir Shahbuddin Shah has mentioned about it. Every thing is quite clear from Farmans for sure but as far as I remember in KIM, only the name of "Usman" is there when compilation of Quran is concerned. I dont think name of any other caliph or person is specifically mentioned. If name of "Umar" has appeared any where in Farman, then kindly let me know.
@ AgaKhani
You may be right about it. The reason I disagree with you on this is because as per history, the final compilation was done by Usman only, after which other copies were burnt out. Before him, Abu bakar had compiled a book, which he kept with him self only and after him the book went in the hands of Hazrat Hafsa, who was wife of Holy Prophet (PBUH). During the reign of caliph Umar, much time was spent on expansion of Islamic state and I dont think he compiled any book of Quran or edited the text which was already compiled by Abubakar.
Whether it is Sunni or Shia books, both accept that for many important problems, he used to consult Hazrat Ali for help. He himself had said it on few occasions “O Ali ! Had you not been here we would have suffered a disgrace.” and "Had there not been Ali, Umar would have perished." One of this quote is mentioned in Noorum Mubin as well.
@ Zznoor,
You had asked the change and I had mentioned the sentence which he added. If you read my post, I had written exactly the same thing. I did not intend to make long discussion on it as I was not judgmental about his act.
Btw though you have counted "11" pages of discussion in topic "Is Quran Complete?" But I dont think you have bothered to read it, otherwise you would certainly not repeat the same arguments, which were already raised there. You said there is no single recorded authentic hadith regarding it. What do you mean by "authentic"? Sahi Bukhari, which is considered most authentic books by Sunni Muslims, mention this several times.
Request to all: Lets not make this thread a discussion for this topic. If there is any new point or additional information, kindly continue it on the relevant section.
Please stop spreading sunnism - and spouting sunni propoganda ...
incase you forgot ..we are SHIA...talk to some ithna asheri scholars - ulema..and get their veiwpoint...
check out wikipedia...
Shia view of the Quran
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Shi‘ah view of the Qur'an has some differences from the Sunni view, but the text of the Qur'an is exactly identical.
History
The Shi‘ah use the same Qur'an as Sunni Muslims, however they do not believe that it was first compiled by Uthman ibn Affan The Shi‘ah believe that the Qur'an was gathered and compiled by Muhammad during his lifetime. This completed version of the Qur'an was kept next to the pulpit of Muhammad within the Mosque of Madinah, where scholars would come to transcribe more copies.
Tafsir
The Shia differ on several verses are different from the traditional Sunni view either through a totally different interpretation or by giving the same interpretation, but giving that interpretation a larger impact on their jurisprudence.
Please stop spreading sunnism - and spouting sunni propoganda ...
incase you forgot ..we are SHIA...talk to some ithna asheri scholars - ulema..and get their veiwpoint...
check out wikipedia...
Shia view of the Quran
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Shi‘ah view of the Qur'an has some differences from the Sunni view, but the text of the Qur'an is exactly identical.
History
The Shi‘ah use the same Qur'an as Sunni Muslims, however they do not believe that it was first compiled by Uthman ibn Affan The Shi‘ah believe that the Qur'an was gathered and compiled by Muhammad during his lifetime. This completed version of the Qur'an was kept next to the pulpit of Muhammad within the Mosque of Madinah, where scholars would come to transcribe more copies.
Tafsir
The Shia differ on several verses are different from the traditional Sunni view either through a totally different interpretation or by giving the same interpretation, but giving that interpretation a larger impact on their jurisprudence.
Thanks for making my point - the compilation made by the prophet and also by Ali was chronological - not arranged or organized in the form it is today.
Here is what it wikipedia says when it comes to Hazrat Ali:
"Ali compiled a complete version of the Quran, mus'haf,[67] six months after the death of Muhammad. The volume was completed and carried by camel to show to other people of Medina. The order of this mus'haf differed from that which was gathered later during the Uthmanic era. This book was rejected by several people when he showed it to them. Despite this, Ali made no resistance against standardized mus'haf.[68]"
note - COMPLETE - if you actually read some historical accounts - Hazrat Ali presented this compilation to Uthman to be used when Uthman was putting together his compilation - Uthman rejected it (historians and recorders at the time - point to the politics of the time to forcing that decision - as the complete version of the Quran - pointed very clearly to the succession and position of Ali - and accepting it would have been legitimizing Ali and delegitimizing his own actions and the actions of the 2 caliphs before him)...
Tabari (I will have to check my sources) who is a sunni scholar records along with a few other sources ..Ali's response to Uthman...that this complete Quran will stay with Ali and his progeny until the day of Qiyamah..and only then will it come out.
Once again - all of your arguments are moot, null and void to me..because the Imams have made many farmans in regards to this...now it is upto you to follow or not follow....
The supremacy of the Imam is what Shi'ism is all about..
No Imam - no Shi'ism....
And if you really are interested in learning - go talk to an Isna Aseri Ulema in regards to the Quran and you will get a very different perspective..but alas - I feel you've made up your mind..
and as I've stated before - you talk about pluralism...you can have your belief..and i/we can have ours.
Once again - all of your arguments are moot, null and void to me..because the Imams have made many farmans in regards to this...now it is upto you to follow or not follow....
The supremacy of the Imam is what Shi'ism is all about..
No Imam - no Shi'ism....
That wraps it up.
We will have further discussion when somebody finds uncurrapted Qur'an or Imam decides to reveal his version.
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