Who were 'HUSSAINY BRAHMINS''?

Discussion on doctrinal issues
agakhani
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Post by agakhani »

The king had three daughters, Meher Bano,Shahar Bano and Keshran Bano.The king of India was Maharaja Chandra Gupta.
Thanks for the link this one has more detail in comparison with the links we posted before but look like I missed the sentece which shows that Hazarat Ali was came in India! Did I?
I found only following paragraph regarding Hazarat Ali:-

Code: Select all

Hazrat Ali (AS) commenced Islamic relationship with India. When the friends and disciples of Ali (AS) came to India, several Hindus who loved these descendents came forward to help Ali’s (AS) representatives, and they greatly benefited from their knowledge and wisdom of Quran.
.

But above paragraph doesn't mention about arrival of Hazarat Ali in India, it s only mentioning about friends and disciples of Ali (AS) came to India. Please let me know if I miss it.

As I wrote earlier, we can't denied 100% that Hazarat Ali was never came in Sind/India but my concern only is history is quiet about this. and therefore we need more research and I hope one of day we will find right answer.
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Post by agakhani »

Multan is very ancient and historical place. Prahlad or Pehlaj (Son of king Hiranya Kashipu or Harnakans) was also believed to live here.
This is totally new story for me that Prahlad also lived in Multan, thanks for information.

By the way if we read 'DAS AVTARS' and some ginans on Prahlad then we can find that Prahlad was not in human shape but he was deer, because human being was not evolved yet but only some insects, birds and some animal were roaming on earth, human being still had to wait, please look the chart composed by Rai Abu Ali on creation.
Any comments about this?
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Post by star_munir »

sorry, I took it wrong. You did not miss any thing. But I agree as you said, there is need of more research on this area to know whether these foot prints are of Hazrat Ali or not and whether he came India or not?
Apart from this, one of the son of Hazrat Ali, called Hanifa or Hanifya is said to have come Sindh. There is a place related to him in Sindh which is called as Ameer Pir. Many Ismaili also visit this place. Hazrat Muhammad has also mentioned India in one of his hadiths.
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Post by star_munir »

According to some traditions Prahlad lived in Multan and the festival of holi was also celebrated for the first time in Multan.
As for Prahlad being deer, I have not heard it nor I can imagine him in that way. Regarding das avtar, and especially about the beginning few it is very difficult to interpret the stories associated with them in current context and to find out what is allegory and what is history? This is perhaps, this was the most ancient time, about which there are no historical records. I do not have any comment or information in this regard. However, in current times researchers have been able to trace some evidences about Ram and Krishna avtar. Earlier, I had shared an article entitled "Mil gaye Raam", if you wish you may like to read it
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... +gaye+raam
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Post by agakhani »

There is a place related to him in Sindh which is called as Ameer Pir. Many Ismaili also visit this place
Is this place also call 'ZAMPIR' which is near Tando Turel? I think I visited this place when I was in Pakistan around 30 year ago.
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Post by agakhani »

As for Prahlad being deer, I have not heard it nor I can imagine him in that way


It is very tough to believe but be honest with you it is quoted in our ginans too, that ginanic verses start like this :-
"એજી, પ્રહલાદ ની માં એ તેને વનમાં જનમ્યો" ****
Eji, Prahalad ni maye tene vanma janmyo"
Now let me ask you this? if Prahald was in human being and as per the story of Prahlad was son of a King harna Kans, now question arise here why the queen went in forest and gave birth over there in jungle? Did she kicked out from palace? then why she went in forest and gave birth to Prahalad in forest? nope Munirbhai she didn't kicked out from palace nor she was living in palace because she was deer and deer lives in jungle, it is a common sense and she was living in jungle because she was a deer. deer doesn't live in king palace.

The second evidence is please look the evolution chart below created by Abu Ali and look the time period during the time of Prahlad, you will find that at that time some insects, Birds, some life in water and Vegetations in early were only evolved, Human being still had to wait until Treta Yug, the first man evolved on this earth was the time of 'VAMAN AVATAR".

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanihist.jpg


The third evidence I also heard in waez of Abu Ali that Prahlad was not in Human shape but he was deer.


The fourth evidence the name of Devil is "HIRANA KANS"
Glossary:-

HIRAN: MEANS DEER
KANS: MEANS DEVIL
Means Deers devil.


The fifth evidence who killed Harna Kans? answer;a lion, and as per the Das avtar harna kans was killed by a lion because harana ( deer) was deer and animal kills animal.

As I wrote above it is up to you to believe or not to believe but I agree that when I heard this first time that Prahalad was a deer then I didn't believe it so I research it more and after my own research I have to accept that Prahalad was a deer.But it is up to you.

**** Above verse may be not exact ginanic verses but if you look pir Shams's ginan then you can find some where the story of Prahlad.#2765;
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Post by star_munir »

Thanks a lot for sharing this information. This is quite surprising and unique information which you had shared. Although, I had seen evolution chart but I never thought about it before. Thanks
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Post by kmaherali »

agakhani wrote:

The second evidence is please look the evolution chart below created by Abu Ali and look the time period during the time of Prahlad, you will find that at that time some insects, Birds, some life in water and Vegetations in early were only evolved, Human being still had to wait until Treta Yug, the first man evolved on this earth was the time of 'VAMAN AVATAR".

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanihist.jpg


The third evidence I also heard in waez of Abu Ali that Prahlad was not in Human shape but he was deer.
I think the Divine assumed manifestations (including the non-humans) to save and fulfil the deeds of human momins. The verses of Anant Akhado (verses 404 onwards) are very clear that human devotees existed and not animals. There was devotion and worship which was of more advanced form then our present worship. The Ginan Pahela Karta Jug manhe Shahna states:

ejee pahelaa kartaa jugmaa(n) he sonaanaare ghatt shaahnaa sonaanaare paatt
sonaane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree narsha(n)g jee raay
gur bheermaajee nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)ttaay.....1

During the first era of Kartaa, the Path was golden and the Lord's stage or'paat' (as in ghatpaat) was also golden. Lord Narsang was seated on a golden throne as the king. Through the supplications and invocations of the Guide, the Creator (Prophetic Light), the place was decorated and was shining with glory. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.


ejee beeje tretaa jugmaa(n)he rupaanaare ghatt shaah naa rupaanaare paatt
rupaane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree raamcha(n)ddhrajee raay
gur veejeshtthann nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)ttaay.....2

During the second era of Tretaa, the Path was silver and the Lord's stage was also silver. Lord Raamchandra was seated on a silver throne as the King. Through the supplications of the Guide Veejeshtan, the place was decorated and made glorious. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.


ejee treeje duaapur jugmaa(n)he traa(m)baanaare ghatt shaahnaa traa(m)baa naa re paatt
traa(m)baane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree karashanjee raay
gur veedurvyaas nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)taay......3

During the third era of Duaapur, the Path was of copper and the Lord's stage was also of copper. Lord Shree Krishnaa was seated on a copper throne as the king. Through the supplications of the Guide Veedurvyaas, the place was decorated and made glorious. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.


aaj kaljug maa(n)he maattee naare ghatt shaahnaa maatteenaare paatt
maatteene see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree nakala(n)kee raay
gur nabee muhamadnee aarteene chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)tannaa chha(n)taay
peer sadardeen nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)tannaa chha(n)taay........4

Today in the present age, the Path is of clay and the Lord's stage ia also of clay. Lord Hazarat Aly (Shree Naklank) is seated on the throne of clay as the king. Through the supplications of the Guide Prophet Muhammed, the place was decorated and made glorious. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.
The place was made glorious through the supplications of Peer Sadardeen. Sprinle..

As indicated by the verses above, in the Karta Yuga the paaths were golden as opposed to clay in the Kali Yuga. This is symbolic of a more rich and advanced form of worship. Humans were more advanced in their thinking in the Karta Yuga.

Swami Sri Yukhteswar has given a very interesting scientific/mathematical explanation of the four Yugas and the human capacities within them. I have posted it at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

There is also a reference to a video in the above thread which is very illuminative about the 24,000 year cycle.
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Post by star_munir »

Thanks Karim for this information and the link
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Post by agakhani »

Kbhai,

Many scholars and authors didn't accepted Swami Yukteshwar's theory and calculation on four cycles, I draw your attention many times in past, I also wrote that his mathematical calculation for 4 yugas has been criticized by many scholars as well according him this is not "Kalyug" which is still hard to digest or accept for many scholars and off course for me that is why his book was heavily criticized in past.

In my opinion, you can not rely on only one person's saying, have you heard beside Swami Yukteshwar from some one else that this period we are passing right now is KartaYug? and this is not a Kalyug? have you? I didn't
Kher, it is up to you brother.

Now come to the topic, you give ginans as a your proof, good, but what would you interpret following ginanic verses then?
"એજી, પ્રહલાદ ની માં એ તેને વનમાં જનમ્યો
Eji, Prahlad ni ma e tene van ma janmyo?
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Post by kmaherali »

agakhani wrote:Kbhai,

In my opinion, you can not rely on only one person's saying, have you heard beside Swami Yukteshwar from some one else that this period we are passing right now is KartaYug? and this is not a Kalyug? have you? I didn't [/b] Kher, it is up to you brother.

Now come to the topic, you give ginans as a your proof, good, but what would you interpret following ginanic verses then?
"એજી, પ્રહલાદ ની માં એ તેને વનમાં જનમ્યો
Eji, Prahlad ni ma e tene van ma janmyo?


There will always be disagreement about any work. Ultimately one has to use his/her intellect to determine what is right and what is wrong. In my opinion the Swami's theory is in harmony with the Ginanic teachings and hence acceptable.

Prahlad's mother could have given birth to her child in the jungle. It is unusual but not impossible.

According to the Ginan that I alluded to, there was worship of the highest standard in the Karta Yuga and Treta Yuga. Hence there were humans during that time. It was not about animals. Prahlad saved many souls as a human being just like Pir Sadardin. He was not an animal. He went through the trials and tribulations as a human being not an animal.
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Post by agakhani »

In my opinion the Swami's theory is in harmony with the Ginanic teachings and hence acceptable.
I don't know which theory of Swami is acceptable in harmony of our ginanic teaching?
Are you talking about 4 cycles? time periods of 4 cycles? and if yes then let me tell you that, sorry brother swami's theory on 4 cycles/Yugas and time periods given by him in his book are not acceptable and it doesn't matching with our ginans at all, not only our ginans but with the Theory of other religions too.
According to the Ginan that I alluded to, there was worship of the highest standard in the Karta Yuga and Treta Yuga. Hence there were humans during that time. It was not about animals.
Do you think human being only can worship to god? Do you think animals are not created by God? Don't you accept that animals were also murids of God during time of Prahlad?

Now you may have question!!if Prahlad was animal then how can he gave salvation to 5 Karor Murids? answer is simple these 5 karors were also animals.[/quote]
There will always be disagreement about any work.
Absolutely right, You don't have to accept my theory on Prahlad and same way I don't have to accept your belief and theory of Swami Yukteshwar on 4 cycles rather then that I will accept our ginanic teaching.

I agree with only one thing with you and that is; yes humans were evolved in Treta Yug and humans were worshiping god but not in "Karta yug" or the during the time of Prahlad ! brother this is not my belief or my own theory but this belief and theory from our ginanic literature and also from the scriptures of other religions too.
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Post by shiraz.virani »

Do you think human being only can worship to god? Do you think animals are not created by God? Don't you accept that animals were also murids of God during time of Prahlad?

Now you may have question!!if Prahlad was animal then how can he gave salvation to 5 Karor Murids? answer is simple these 5 karors were also animals.


Great question agakhani bhai.....I think even animals submit to allah[swt]

"Do you not realise that everything in the heavens and earth prostrates/submits to Allah: the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, and the animals? So do many human beings, though for many others punishment is well deserved. Anyone disgraced by Allah will have no one to honour him: Allah does whatever He wills. " (Qur'an 22:18)
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Post by kmaherali »

agakhani wrote:I agree with only one thing with you and that is; yes humans were evolved in Treta Yug and humans were worshiping god but not in "Karta yug" or the during the time of Prahlad ! brother this is not my belief or my own theory but this belief and theory from our ginanic literature and also from the scriptures of other religions too.

According to scripture the role of the Machh Avtaar was to destroy the demon in the water and to recover the Vedas and hence the restoration of knowledge. Was this restoration of knowledge for animals. Are animals capable of reading the Vedas?
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Post by star_munir »

Interesting discussion is going on.

Karim, given below is an extract from article "History in Ginans" from heritage website. What are your views on it?

Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said “When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)

Do you think human beings were there since the time of very first avataar or since the time period of 3rd avataar?

Do any one has complete report of what Imam said in this regard in Mission Conference, 1945?
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Post by agakhani »

Great question agakhani bhai.....I think even animals submit to allah[swt]
Shiraz,

Thanks for quoting Quranic Ayah, it sure backing my thinking and may be many other's thinking too, that not only human being is the creation of god but birds, animals, and other creatures also created by Almighty Allah [swt].

Where have you been for so long? I missed your criticizes on some topics and some great answers :lol:
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Post by agakhani »

According to scripture the role of the Machh Avtaar was to destroy the demon in the water and to recover the Vedas and hence the restoration of knowledge.
That is right Kbhai, but in my opinion the first reason to recover vedas from /Hayagriva/Shankashr was for future use for Human being not for animals because if you look in Allah's whole creation then you will find that only human being is breaking 'LAW OF NATURE' not animals and birds, they are still follows as same as they used to thousands and thousands years ago but look the human being, now a days human being doing every thing against the teaching of Vedas because human kind has mind and intelligence which creates many questions in his minds. Now a days Human being is challenging to the God a superior authority (almighty Allah) because Human beings has mind and intelligence which other animals doesn't have, have you heard any animals challenged the God ever? there were and there are some good and bad men on this earth all the time i..e. since the first men walked on this earth. Vedas were saved and recovered for these bad peoples, so that they can read it and learned lessons from them, and give up there bad deeds and always follows the saying of vedas.

Second reason:-

The another reason to save vedas was to protect of this earth, without the Vedas, the world was in a lot of danger of going completely dark, to avoid the darkness on the earth and to protect the world, Lord Vishnu incarnated as Matsya to save earth, so that vegetables, plants, animals birds and future human being can survive.

The third reason is a solid proof which prove that there were no other peoples were living on this earth besides 7 Maharishis during the Matsya avatar! According the “Matsya Puran”, Mahabharat and Bhagwat Maha Puran Brahma first created 7 maharishi called ‘SAPTRSHI’ to start population of human beings but a big flood about to come in seven days, so Lord Vishnu ordered Manu to build a boat and advise him to sail in that boat along with 6 other maharishi, so that he can save them from flood (great deluge) so that future generation of human beings can started from them means there were no other peoples there besides those 7 maharishi. Do you know the word "Manavi" is being called after “Manu” ?

Now Lord Vishnu incarnated in Match/ fish avatar and he towed to boat and saved those seven (let me repeat it here again, only those 7 seven peoples who were first created by Brhama and who were sailed on the boat built by Manu )maharishi, so that human being can started from them, means human being was not born during great deluge time!!
[/quote] I think this is a solid proof which also prove that there were no human being there during whole Karta yug"
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Post by agakhani »

Interesting discussion is going on.
Indeed, it is a great and decent discussion going on but discussion topic of the current discussion is different topic than main topic of this post, but it is OK, this is a great discussion after long time in this forum.
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Post by kmaherali »

agakhani wrote: That is right Kbhai, but in my opinion the first reason to recover vedas from /Hayagriva/Shankashr was for future use for Human being not for animals
It is the nature of the Divine to guide according to the times. That is the reason we believe in the living Imam. What is the use of preserving Vedas for the future when fresh guidance can be made available to humans when they emarge?
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Post by kmaherali »

star_munir wrote:Interesting discussion is going on.

Karim, given below is an extract from article "History in Ginans" from heritage website. What are your views on it?

Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said “When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)

Do you think human beings were there since the time of very first avataar or since the time period of 3rd avataar?

Do any one has complete report of what Imam said in this regard in Mission Conference, 1945?
I think you are mixing the evolutionary time frame with the time period of Das Avtaar. The fish that the Imam refers to is a permanent appearance of the manifestation of the fish as witness when the the evolutionary stage was that of a fish, just as today the Imam is a man.

In the Das Avtaars God took various temporal manifestations to accomplish certain tasks according to the needs of the devotees. The Machh Avtaar was not a permanent manifestation. There is no relationship between evolution and Das Avtaars. It is just a coincidence that the pattern of the appearance of Das Avtaars mirrors that of evolutionay theory.

As I said earlier, I believe human devotees existed right from the 1st Avtaar (Machh Avtaar). I am in agreement with Swami Yukteshwars theory of which I have given reference to earlier. You may want to read it to find out what it is about.
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Post by agakhani »

As I said earlier, I believe human devotees existed right from the 1st Avtaar (Machh Avtaar).

It is sad that even I proved giving example from Hindu scriptures, Hindu Purans and from our ginans that there were no human being existed during the time of Matsya Avatar but if some one still hanging on his/her own thinking then that is fine with me? I can't impose the facts on them, same way Kbhai you can't impose and force your own believe to some one else who don't agree with you and with the theory of swami Yuktesharji written in his book "The Holy science".
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Post by shiraz.virani »

It is sad that even I proved giving example from Hindu scriptures, Hindu Purans and from our ginans that there were no human being existed during the time of Matsya Avatar but if some one still hanging on his/her own thinking then that is fine with me? I can't impose the facts on them, same way Kbhai you can't impose and force your own believe to some one else who don't agree with you and with the theory of swami Yuktesharji written in his book "The Holy science".
Brother agakhani , our universe is far beyond our imagination...Having said this what makes you think that humans did not exist during the time of matsya avatar ??

According to one post of brother maherali bhai and correct me if Iam wrong he said god has sent over 50,000 adams[as] on earth.....I would go one step further I would say 50,000 is just the figure...how many adams were sent down may be far beyond 50,000 as we all know that universe is always expanding....Anyways I dont want you to get twisted but if maherali bhai is saying that humans indeed were there then yes Im on his boat
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Post by agakhani »

according to one post of brother maherali bhai and correct me if Iam wrong he said god has sent over 50,000 adams[as] on earth.....I would go one step further I would say 50,000 is just the figure...how many adams were sent down may be far beyond 50,000 as we all know that universe is always expanding..

Not only 50.000 but I would say may be 500.000 Adams already born on this earth, I don't have any objection for that nor I have any objection if you don't agree whatever I wrote above that there were no human being was evolved during the time of 1st cycle or Karta Yug, however I am still backing what I wrote above believe it or not it is up to you.
But let me tell this, those Adams were not just born just like this that Allah push the computer button and Adams were born right away as per the Darwin theory every creature on this earth has to evolve first, the first creature on this earth was in water you can call it "amoeba" this amoeba on this earth was first Adam, but this Adam/ameoba was not in human shape because human beings still has to wait thousand and thousand years to evolve yet.
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Post by star_munir »

The discussion is quite interesting but my suggestion is, it will be better if it is continued under the section of Pre-Adam where there are already the topics that are being discussed here currently such as how many Adams, time periods of jugs and avatars etc. I hope this post has not offended any one.
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Post by agakhani »

Not at all, your recommendation is appropriate I think it doesn't offend any one, not me at at least.
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Post by MR-FORGET »

Anyways I dont want you to get twisted but if maherali bhai is saying that humans indeed were there then yes Im on his boat
Mr. Virani,

Mr.Maherali is not a God, he also makes mistakes, I don't agree with his 4 cycles theory either, now if you still want sail with him in his boat then you are most welcome.
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Post by MR-FORGET »

Mr. Every participants in this topic,

I, do not come very often in this forum but today I surpirsed to see that this topic is become very intersting but I urge every one to please stick on the topic " Who were Hussainy Brahmins"? Thanks
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Post by samir25 »

Ancient Remains At Multan

The author is a noted Archeologist, based in Pune INDIA

http://panunkashmir.org/blog/heritage/a ... at-multan/
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Post by shiraz.virani »

Not only 50.000 but I would say may be 500.000 Adams already born on this earth, I don't have any objection for that nor I have any objection if you don't agree whatever I wrote above that there were no human being was evolved during the time of 1st cycle or Karta Yug, however I am still backing what I wrote above believe it or not it is up to you.
But let me tell this, those Adams were not just born just like this that Allah push the computer button and Adams were born right away as per the Darwin theory every creature on this earth has to evolve first, the first creature on this earth was in water you can call it "amoeba" this amoeba on this earth was first Adam, but this Adam/ameoba was not in human shape because human beings still has to wait thousand and thousand years to evolve yet.
Brother agakhani just like you even I used to believe in the darwins theory of evolution but often at times it has been discredited ....like say for example humans being monkeys in the past....Nobody knows when did humanity came into existance....recently there was this discovery of huge giant humanoids in sri lanka and other places whoz height can be measured in meatures and not inches :lol: ....according to certain scientists these fossil date some millions of years old......MILLIONS !!

You are right when you said life began in water as quran says the same thing !!....But when did god created adam[as] ??....Every day agakhani bhai we learn something new...we discover something new, the holy quran is 1400 years old but even today not even single mullah, imam or saint can completely understand the real meaning of holy quran and thats the beauty of holy quran....its more like a treasure hunt, the more you dig into it the more you'll discover.

The holy quran says :

2:164 Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the Night and the Day; in the sailing of the ships through the Ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;― (here) indeed are signs for a people that are wise.

31:10 He created the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; He set on the earth mountains standing firm lest it should shake with you; and He scattered through it beasts of all kinds. We send down rain from the sky and produce on the earth every kind of noble creature, in pairs.

Today we know that the mountains prevent earth from shaking...subhanallah !!!

Now what kind of beasts do you think allah[swt] is talking about brother agakhani ??...The very beasts that humankind knows about are the dinosaurs !!

What kind of beasts were there when h.adam[as] was sent on earth ??
shiraz.virani
Posts: 1256
Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm

Post by shiraz.virani »

Mr. Virani,

Mr.Maherali is not a God, he also makes mistakes, I don't agree with his 4 cycles theory either, now if you still want sail with him in his boat then you are most welcome.
He is not but hez got this great sense of knowledge which is very helpful....Atleast in my case !!
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