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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Who were 'HUSSAINY BRAHMINS''?
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Who were 'HUSSAINY BRAHMINS''?
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MR-FORGET



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Who were 'HUSSAINY BRAHMINS''? Reply with quote

Does any one knows who were Hussainy Brahmins?

I read some where that they fought in battle of Karbala!! Totally stange news for me.
I am history lover and therefore I want to know the real reason why they fought that battle of Karbala?
if it is a true also I have few more questions which are as follows:-

1,If they were Hindus ( because Brahmins follows Hindu religion) then why they fought in battle of Karbala?

2, Who sent them over there? Why and how they reach in battle of Karbala?

3, Are their decedents still exists, any where?

This is very important topics for me as a history seeker and may be for other readers too, so please give more detail if anyone knows about Hussainy Brahmins.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once again brother thank you for sharing with me things that I personally have no knowledge about !!....Because of you I have to go into further detail just to find out about this very interesting stuff.

Please keep on posting and keep on asking those interesting questions !!....Thank You

http://smma59.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/brahmins-fought-for-imam-hussain-in-the-battle-of-karbala/
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shiraz.virani



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Jang Nama, written by Ahmed Punjabi, pages 175-176, it was ordained on the Shias to recite the name of Rahab in their daily prayer. At the time to the Karbala, fourteen hundred Hussaini Brahmins lived in Baghdad alone
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr-Forget

The link provided by Shiraz is good for brief detail but this link doen't have all answers of your other questions so basically I am trying to give you answer as per my little knowledge:-
Quote:
If they were Hindus ( because Brahmins follows Hindu religion) then why they fought in battle of Karbala?


Yes, they were Hindus but Magadh king CHANDRAGUPT MORYA sent them upon the request of Imam Hussain letter for help, because Imam Hussain's wife, the Persian princess Shahr Banu and wife of King Chandragupta Maher Banu (Hindu name Cahandralekha after marriage) were two sisters.

Quote:
2, Who sent them over there? Why and how they reach in battle of Karbala?


I already give the answer who sent them? i.e. Cahndragupt Moraya by the way when they reached in the battle of Karbala the battle was over and as per the order of YAZID PALID the head of Imam hussain and other shahids were being taken to the yazid, so they met with a disciple of the Imam, who arranged for them to stay in a special part of the town, which even today is known by the name of Dair-i-Hindiya or ‘the Indian quarter.
At same night the head of them show a bright light in the room where head of Imam Hussain was kept, so he realized that Imam was on right path and Yazid killed him in a revenge, so he decided to take revenge from Yazid soldiers so fight broken up among Yazid's soldiers and among this Brahmans and the head of Hussainy Brahman and his all son ( 11) died in this fight.

WHY THEY CALLED HUSSAINY BRAHMINS?

Some Dutt Brahmins, under the leadership of one Bhurya Dutt, got together with Mukhtar Saqafi to avenge the death of the Imam. They stayed behind in Kufa, while the rest returned to India. Here they built up a community of their own, calling themselves Hussaini Brahmins, keeping alive the memory of their links with the Imam.

Quote:
3, Are their decedents still exists, any where?


Yes they are, mostly they residing in Punjab and Bihar state in India and also in Pakistan and Afghanistan they still participate in ashura in month of Moharam.

Thanks for bringing this important and untouched topics on light in this forum. As Shiraz asked and I am also requesting you please bring more untouched topics like this in this forum.
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MR-FORGET



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Once again brother thank you for sharing with me things that I personally have no knowledge about

Mr. Virani,

Thanks for your compliments, however, I also read this untouched story from a Shia history books, not long ago, Ismaili history is quiet about this event, and as long as I know it is not mentioned in 'Nooran Mubin' or any Ismaili history books.
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MR-FORGET



Joined: 28 Nov 2010
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Some Dutt Brahmins, under the leadership of one Bhurya Dutt, got together with Mukhtar Saqafi to avenge the death of the Imam. They stayed behind in Kufa, while the rest returned to India. Here they built up a community of their own, calling themselves Hussaini Brahmins, keeping alive the memory of their links with the Imam.


To Mr. Agakhani,

Thank you very much, first I thought that may be nobody in this forum will know about this untouched topic but I am glad that you already knew this event, I salute you for you wide knowledge, by the way I still looking names of Shia books which you promise to give me on the event of" cursing to Hazarat Ali by Muavia".

p.s. I always read your and Mr. Virani's all posts.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its unique information about which I had never heard. There may be some connections with Hazrat Ali and his son Muhammad Hanifya 's visits in India. Though history speaks little about it. There is qadam mubarak (foot prints) of Hazrat Ali in Sindh ( I am not sure whether it would be actually foot prints of Hazrat Ali or not) but many people believe it so and go to see there.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing which is surprising to me here that all of these were from Brahmin caste. Traditionally it is "kshatriya" caste who are warriors and soldiers (I know that in certain stories, some Brahmins are depicted as having taken part in battle field)
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is qadam mubarak (foot prints) of Hazrat Ali in Sindh ( I am not sure whether it would be actually foot prints of Hazrat Ali or not) but many people believe it so and go to see there.


I also read foot print of Hazarat Ali (s.a.) in one famous Gujarati books
'Pir Sabzali ni madhya Asia ni musafari" " પીર સબ્ઝાઅલીની મધ્ય એશિયાની મુસાફરી" very interesting books but the place mentioned in that book was some where in Hunza, Chitral or some where near Russian border. you live in Sind, you know better than us, and I don't say that there is no foot print in Sind, it is 100% possible but if you read history of Hazarat Ali (s.a.) then you will find that Hazarat Ali never visited any other countries besides Arabastan (Saudi Arabia) and Kufa
(Iraq).
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can not say any thing on authenticity of that foot print whether it is actually the one of Hazrat Ali or not. However, I have heard that during the time of first caliph Hazrat Ali went to different places about which not much is known in history.Secondly we know that Hazrat Ali was miracle accomplisher. Within a seconds he used to reach far off places to help out those who seek it.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Secondly we know that Hazrat Ali was miracle accomplisher


If we accept that Hazarat Ali was miracle accomplisher (and of course he did many miracles in his life, (JANG E KHANDAK)) then it is possible that he may came in Sind. We Ismaili have faith and beleives that that Hazarat ali (s.a.) was 'KADIR MUTTALIK" he can do any thing if he wants to do.

There is a comon belife in we Ismailis that the first Imam who came in Indo-Pak was Hazarat Imam Hasan Ali Shah( s.a.) he came in Zirak, Sind in yeat 1842, but if we read the history of our Imam and ginan of our pirs then we can find out that Imam Kasamshah was the first imam who came in Jampudip first, He came in the town name 'Analwad" (called Patan now a days) during the time of Pir Shams (s.a.), when pir Mabap converted many Hindus in Islam composing Garabis.
Please read the following ginanic verses which backing my thought:-

"સર્વે સતપંથે પાવલ પીધા અમીરસ પાઈ ને રે,
નરે દીધો છે આપે દીદાર કાસમશાહ આવી ને રે".

'SARVE SATPANTHE PAVAL PIDHA AMIRAS PAI NE RE,
NARE DIDHO CHHE AAPE DIDAR KASAMSHAH AAVINE RE.

In this garbi pir Shams says that Nar Kassam Shah came there and gave didar to the garbi participants. (during Hindu festival called Navratri) Read above ginanic verses of that garbi, which clearly state that Imam Kasam Shah came there and blessed his didar.

Actually we need more research and as we research more and more then we may find many amazing truth of our religion which are still hidden or still not reveiled yet, so I believe that it might be possible that that is a real foot print of Hazarat Ali, God knows better.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting information. But I think, here Pir Shams is may be talking about Batini deedar. Because usually at that time jamat used to travel to Iran for getting deedar. There is another ginan of Pir Shams farmana kari narji boliya in which it is mentioned Imam Qasim Shah appeared (in Jampudip) and gave cup of Aab-e-Safa to blind man who passed the test. Here also I think, Pir is talking about batini deedar.
The story mentioned in the ginan is as follow:
Pir Shams went to Iran to meet Imam of the time. Imam asked him to take a test of faith with devotees (in Multan). When Pir Shams returned to Multan, he said to the gathering of devotees that he wants bread made of katha flour (a kind of reddish wheat) and human flesh. The one who will cut and give his own flesh will get immense reward. Gathering was stunned listening at this request of Pir. Nobody wanted to cut their own flesh. Pir Shams kept fast for about seven days and no one went near Pir. Then a blind mendicant came and sat in Jamat Khana. He said to Pir Shams to take the dagger and to cut his flesh as desire. Pir Shams however, did not cut his flesh and said that he was taking only a test. Imam Qasim Sham came there and gave the cup of holy water to the blind man. He drank the holy water and thereafter was able to see the entire universe. He was promised to get place in heaven. Other followers when got to know about it, begged forgiveness from Pir. Pir Shams told them to keep fast so they may be forgiven. Pir Shams passed away some time after this incident.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might possible that the interpretation I made may be wrong, it might be batini deedar, because we can make many interpretation of any single ginan,now forget about this ginan now I will give you one events from history of Ismaili imamas, and you can find this event in 'NOORAN MUBIN' too, according the nooran mubin, Imam Abu Hassan Ali came in Lahore (part of Jampudwip) with King Nadir Shah Durani and stayed in Lahore about a month to help Nadir Shah Durani to won fort of Lahore and he went back Iran after Durani won lahore.

What is your answer about this? my answer of this , it is true also , then why most peoples believe that our 46th Imam Hassan Ali Shah was the first Imam who came in Jampudwip first (in 1842) now which one is right?. Imam Hassan Ali Shah or Imam Abu Hassan Ali which imam came first inIndo-Pak in your opinion?
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:21 am    Post subject: Thanks for refreshing the story of pir Shams. Reply with quote

Quote:
The story mentioned in the ginan is as follow:


That was a tough test from pir Shams to blind Chandrabhan ( one from his two followers) but it has good moral and a big lesson for us.

You can find this story,ginan and its translation in following link too.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=7631

Thanks for refreshing this story again "MULASTAN' Multan is a lucky and historical city where once upon time pir Shams mabap preached jamats ,took a test of jamat and Sun being called to cook meat, gave rebirht of the king son, and grow horns on the head of to Bahauddin Jakaria, sail on paper boat and gave eye sight to blind Cahandrabhan!!
Pir Shams, miracles and Multan will be always remembered for these.
Not only this but Mulatan still has to play big roll during 'ZAHURAT' time, I salute the Pir and city of Multan.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link:)
Yes, Multan is very ancient and historical place. Prahlad or Pehlaj (Son of king Hiranya Kashipu or Harnakans) was also believed to live here. There exist temple of Prahladpuri.

As for Hazrat Ali, I have heard that during the caliphate of Hazrat Abu bakar, Hazrat Ali traveled to different places. It might be possible, that he would have visited India (Sindh and/or other places)

Given below is the link which mentions about Hazrat Ali's arrival in India, Imam Hussain's desire to come India and about Hussaini Brahmins

http://www.balawaristan.net/Documents/relationship-of-different-religions.html

I am just posting some extracts from the article. Any one can read complete article for more details:

Hazrat Ali (AS) commenced Islamic relationship with India. When the friends and disciples of Ali (AS) came to India, several Hindus who loved these descendents came forward to help Ali’s (AS) representatives, and they greatly benefited from their knowledge and wisdom of Quran. Thus commenced deep relationship between India and decedents of Prophet (PBUH).


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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The king had three daughters, Meher Bano,Shahar Bano and Keshran Bano.The king of India was Maharaja Chandra Gupta.


Thanks for the link this one has more detail in comparison with the links we posted before but look like I missed the sentece which shows that Hazarat Ali was came in India! Did I?
I found only following paragraph regarding Hazarat Ali:-
Code:
Hazrat Ali (AS) commenced Islamic relationship with India. When the friends and disciples of Ali (AS) came to India, several Hindus who loved these descendents came forward to help Ali’s (AS) representatives, and they greatly benefited from their knowledge and wisdom of Quran.
.

But above paragraph doesn't mention about arrival of Hazarat Ali in India, it s only mentioning about friends and disciples of Ali (AS) came to India. Please let me know if I miss it.

As I wrote earlier, we can't denied 100% that Hazarat Ali was never came in Sind/India but my concern only is history is quiet about this. and therefore we need more research and I hope one of day we will find right answer.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Multan is very ancient and historical place. Prahlad or Pehlaj (Son of king Hiranya Kashipu or Harnakans) was also believed to live here.


This is totally new story for me that Prahlad also lived in Multan, thanks for information.

By the way if we read 'DAS AVTARS' and some ginans on Prahlad then we can find that Prahlad was not in human shape but he was deer, because human being was not evolved yet but only some insects, birds and some animal were roaming on earth, human being still had to wait, please look the chart composed by Rai Abu Ali on creation.
Any comments about this?
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry, I took it wrong. You did not miss any thing. But I agree as you said, there is need of more research on this area to know whether these foot prints are of Hazrat Ali or not and whether he came India or not?
Apart from this, one of the son of Hazrat Ali, called Hanifa or Hanifya is said to have come Sindh. There is a place related to him in Sindh which is called as Ameer Pir. Many Ismaili also visit this place. Hazrat Muhammad has also mentioned India in one of his hadiths.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to some traditions Prahlad lived in Multan and the festival of holi was also celebrated for the first time in Multan.
As for Prahlad being deer, I have not heard it nor I can imagine him in that way. Regarding das avtar, and especially about the beginning few it is very difficult to interpret the stories associated with them in current context and to find out what is allegory and what is history? This is perhaps, this was the most ancient time, about which there are no historical records. I do not have any comment or information in this regard. However, in current times researchers have been able to trace some evidences about Ram and Krishna avtar. Earlier, I had shared an article entitled "Mil gaye Raam", if you wish you may like to read it
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2549&highlight=mil+gaye+raam
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is a place related to him in Sindh which is called as Ameer Pir. Many Ismaili also visit this place


Is this place also call 'ZAMPIR' which is near Tando Turel? I think I visited this place when I was in Pakistan around 30 year ago.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As for Prahlad being deer, I have not heard it nor I can imagine him in that way


It is very tough to believe but be honest with you it is quoted in our ginans too, that ginanic verses start like this :-
"એજી, પ્રહલાદ ની માં એ તેને વનમાં જનમ્યો" ****
Eji, Prahalad ni maye tene vanma janmyo"
Now let me ask you this? if Prahald was in human being and as per the story of Prahlad was son of a King harna Kans, now question arise here why the queen went in forest and gave birth over there in jungle? Did she kicked out from palace? then why she went in forest and gave birth to Prahalad in forest? nope Munirbhai she didn't kicked out from palace nor she was living in palace because she was deer and deer lives in jungle, it is a common sense and she was living in jungle because she was a deer. deer doesn't live in king palace.

The second evidence is please look the evolution chart below created by Abu Ali and look the time period during the time of Prahlad, you will find that at that time some insects, Birds, some life in water and Vegetations in early were only evolved, Human being still had to wait until Treta Yug, the first man evolved on this earth was the time of 'VAMAN AVATAR".

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanihist.jpg


The third evidence I also heard in waez of Abu Ali that Prahlad was not in Human shape but he was deer.


The fourth evidence the name of Devil is "HIRANA KANS"
Glossary:-

HIRAN: MEANS DEER
KANS: MEANS DEVIL
Means Deers devil.


The fifth evidence who killed Harna Kans? answer;a lion, and as per the Das avtar harna kans was killed by a lion because harana ( deer) was deer and animal kills animal.

As I wrote above it is up to you to believe or not to believe but I agree that when I heard this first time that Prahalad was a deer then I didn't believe it so I research it more and after my own research I have to accept that Prahalad was a deer.But it is up to you.

**** Above verse may be not exact ginanic verses but if you look pir Shams's ginan then you can find some where the story of Prahlad.#2765;
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for sharing this information. This is quite surprising and unique information which you had shared. Although, I had seen evolution chart but I never thought about it before. Thanks
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="agakhani"]
Quote:


The second evidence is please look the evolution chart below created by Abu Ali and look the time period during the time of Prahlad, you will find that at that time some insects, Birds, some life in water and Vegetations in early were only evolved, Human being still had to wait until Treta Yug, the first man evolved on this earth was the time of 'VAMAN AVATAR".

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanihist.jpg


The third evidence I also heard in waez of Abu Ali that Prahlad was not in Human shape but he was deer.



I think the Divine assumed manifestations (including the non-humans) to save and fulfil the deeds of human momins. The verses of Anant Akhado (verses 404 onwards) are very clear that human devotees existed and not animals. There was devotion and worship which was of more advanced form then our present worship. The Ginan Pahela Karta Jug manhe Shahna states:

ejee pahelaa kartaa jugmaa(n) he sonaanaare ghatt shaahnaa sonaanaare paatt
sonaane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree narsha(n)g jee raay
gur bheermaajee nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)ttaay.....1

During the first era of Kartaa, the Path was golden and the Lord's stage or'paat' (as in ghatpaat) was also golden. Lord Narsang was seated on a golden throne as the king. Through the supplications and invocations of the Guide, the Creator (Prophetic Light), the place was decorated and was shining with glory. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.


ejee beeje tretaa jugmaa(n)he rupaanaare ghatt shaah naa rupaanaare paatt
rupaane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree raamcha(n)ddhrajee raay
gur veejeshtthann nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)ttaay.....2

During the second era of Tretaa, the Path was silver and the Lord's stage was also silver. Lord Raamchandra was seated on a silver throne as the King. Through the supplications of the Guide Veejeshtan, the place was decorated and made glorious. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.


ejee treeje duaapur jugmaa(n)he traa(m)baanaare ghatt shaahnaa traa(m)baa naa re paatt
traa(m)baane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree karashanjee raay
gur veedurvyaas nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)taay......3

During the third era of Duaapur, the Path was of copper and the Lord's stage was also of copper. Lord Shree Krishnaa was seated on a copper throne as the king. Through the supplications of the Guide Veedurvyaas, the place was decorated and made glorious. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.


aaj kaljug maa(n)he maattee naare ghatt shaahnaa maatteenaare paatt
maatteene see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree nakala(n)kee raay
gur nabee muhamadnee aarteene chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)tannaa chha(n)taay
peer sadardeen nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)tannaa chha(n)taay........4

Today in the present age, the Path is of clay and the Lord's stage ia also of clay. Lord Hazarat Aly (Shree Naklank) is seated on the throne of clay as the king. Through the supplications of the Guide Prophet Muhammed, the place was decorated and made glorious. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.
The place was made glorious through the supplications of Peer Sadardeen. Sprinle..

As indicated by the verses above, in the Karta Yuga the paaths were golden as opposed to clay in the Kali Yuga. This is symbolic of a more rich and advanced form of worship. Humans were more advanced in their thinking in the Karta Yuga.

Swami Sri Yukhteswar has given a very interesting scientific/mathematical explanation of the four Yugas and the human capacities within them. I have posted it at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4616&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There is also a reference to a video in the above thread which is very illuminative about the 24,000 year cycle.
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star_munir



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Karim for this information and the link
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kbhai,

Many scholars and authors didn't accepted Swami Yukteshwar's theory and calculation on four cycles, I draw your attention many times in past, I also wrote that his mathematical calculation for 4 yugas has been criticized by many scholars as well according him this is not "Kalyug" which is still hard to digest or accept for many scholars and off course for me that is why his book was heavily criticized in past.

In my opinion, you can not rely on only one person's saying, have you heard beside Swami Yukteshwar from some one else that this period we are passing right now is KartaYug? and this is not a Kalyug? have you? I didn't
Kher, it is up to you brother.

Now come to the topic, you give ginans as a your proof, good, but what would you interpret following ginanic verses then?
"એજી, પ્રહલાદ ની માં એ તેને વનમાં જનમ્યો
Eji, Prahlad ni ma e tene van ma janmyo?[b]
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15378

PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Kbhai,

In my opinion, you can not rely on only one person's saying, have you heard beside Swami Yukteshwar from some one else that this period we are passing right now is KartaYug? and this is not a Kalyug? have you? I didn't [/b] Kher, it is up to you brother.

Now come to the topic, you give ginans as a your proof, good, but what would you interpret following ginanic verses then?
"એજી, પ્રહલાદ ની માં એ તેને વનમાં જનમ્યો
Eji, Prahlad ni ma e tene van ma janmyo?[b]


There will always be disagreement about any work. Ultimately one has to use his/her intellect to determine what is right and what is wrong. In my opinion the Swami's theory is in harmony with the Ginanic teachings and hence acceptable.

Prahlad's mother could have given birth to her child in the jungle. It is unusual but not impossible.

According to the Ginan that I alluded to, there was worship of the highest standard in the Karta Yuga and Treta Yuga. Hence there were humans during that time. It was not about animals. Prahlad saved many souls as a human being just like Pir Sadardin. He was not an animal. He went through the trials and tribulations as a human being not an animal.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In my opinion the Swami's theory is in harmony with the Ginanic teachings and hence acceptable.


I don't know which theory of Swami is acceptable in harmony of our ginanic teaching?
Are you talking about 4 cycles? time periods of 4 cycles? and if yes then let me tell you that, sorry brother swami's theory on 4 cycles/Yugas and time periods given by him in his book are not acceptable and it doesn't matching with our ginans at all, not only our ginans but with the Theory of other religions too.

Quote:
According to the Ginan that I alluded to, there was worship of the highest standard in the Karta Yuga and Treta Yuga. Hence there were humans during that time. It was not about animals.


Do you think human being only can worship to god? Do you think animals are not created by God? Don't you accept that animals were also murids of God during time of Prahlad?

Now you may have question!!if Prahlad was animal then how can he gave salvation to 5 Karor Murids? answer is simple these 5 karors were also animals.[/quote]

Quote:
There will always be disagreement about any work.


Absolutely right, You don't have to accept my theory on Prahlad and same way I don't have to accept your belief and theory of Swami Yukteshwar on 4 cycles rather then that I will accept our ginanic teaching.

I agree with only one thing with you and that is; yes humans were evolved in Treta Yug and humans were worshiping god but not in "Karta yug" or the during the time of Prahlad ! brother this is not my belief or my own theory but this belief and theory from our ginanic literature and also from the scriptures of other religions too.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you think human being only can worship to god? Do you think animals are not created by God? Don't you accept that animals were also murids of God during time of Prahlad?

Now you may have question!!if Prahlad was animal then how can he gave salvation to 5 Karor Murids? answer is simple these 5 karors were also animals.


Great question agakhani bhai.....I think even animals submit to allah[swt]

"Do you not realise that everything in the heavens and earth prostrates/submits to Allah: the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, and the animals? So do many human beings, though for many others punishment is well deserved. Anyone disgraced by Allah will have no one to honour him: Allah does whatever He wills. " (Qur'an 22:1icon_cool.gif
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 15378

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
I agree with only one thing with you and that is; yes humans were evolved in Treta Yug and humans were worshiping god but not in "Karta yug" or the during the time of Prahlad ! brother this is not my belief or my own theory but this belief and theory from our ginanic literature and also from the scriptures of other religions too.

According to scripture the role of the Machh Avtaar was to destroy the demon in the water and to recover the Vedas and hence the restoration of knowledge. Was this restoration of knowledge for animals. Are animals capable of reading the Vedas?
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1665

PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting discussion is going on.

Karim, given below is an extract from article "History in Ginans" from heritage website. What are your views on it?

Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said “When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)

Do you think human beings were there since the time of very first avataar or since the time period of 3rd avataar?

Do any one has complete report of what Imam said in this regard in Mission Conference, 1945?
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