www.ismaili.net

Can any o­ne give me the link of Abu Aly's waez in which he tells that there was no body to bury Holy Prophet but Hazrat Aly.And the conspiracies which Sahaba-e- Karam did against Holy Prophet for the sake of the seat(power) of Khalifa.Actually i heard it in o­ne cassette...but its not working now..Waez also mentions about False Hadith's made by Sahi Bukhari...The abusive language they used with Holy prophets wife..That cassette was shocking!i wanna hear it... 

It was Bibi Fatima,daughter of nabi mohammed this is known history.
the first khalif put a claim on her property,to a point of throwing her belonging on the streets.

bro aly

what you said @ above is from the ishna shari point of view, they curse the 1st 3 caliphs

h.abu bakr was a rich man, it was this abu bakr who got whatever he had in his house[ jewelry,clothes etc etc ] for the sake of prophet[saw], when prophet[saw] asked " o abu bakr what have you left for your wife and kids " he replied " i have left for them allah[swt] and his rasool[saw] "


do we have that courage to give everything that we made so far to our imam ????? you might say "YES" but deep inside you'll be cursing yourself

we always incline on negative side just because some missionary told us but what we dont realise is the message that missionary wanted to convey.

and dont forget that our imam ali[as] did accept the khilafat of all 3 caliphs..had our imam[as] thought like what waizeen teach us today islam wouldnt have survived by now.


yaa ali madad

Leave all the things aside!the main thing is that There was no body to bury Holy prophet!Just hear the words of Sahi Bukhari!What he said about Holy Prophet's wife! Terrible!....If any o­ne can give me that link,i would appreciate it!...All the suni's follow Sahi Bukhari's Hadith's.....

brother m0786

again as usual just like brother aly , you came up with a sunni point of view, we hear 2 different stories one of the shia side and one from the sunni side, now which one is correct ????

thats that reason why i said , just leave this on god

if we go by ishna shari point of view i can assure you thats fake jus like their hidden imam.

if we go with sunni point of view then again we have al-bukhari, tirmidhi and other famous hadith collector who in their sahih said there was no one present at the time of burial.

let the past stay in the past....we have got PAST,PRESENT and FUTURE in our imam e zaman , why cry for something which never left us ??


yaa ali madad

I dont believe what Sunni writers says!But its so Humiliating for sunnis that Prophet Muhammed The last prophet! was burried by no o­ne!else than Hazrat Aly alone!...Even Hazrat Umer and the Khalifas tried to take out the body of Holy prophet...But Thanx to Hazrat Aly who sat o­n the Holy prophets Grave with a Talwar in his hands..Abu Aly Missionary got so emotional when he was telling the story.

Maidan-E-jung may jab zaroot paree,
ALI(AS) HAIDER-E-KARRAR ban gaye,

NABI nay jab pukara,
ALI(AS) MAZHAR-UL-AJAYAB ban gaye,

Zamane nay jab Sitam kiye,
ALI(AS) sabar ka paykaar ban gaye,

Jab Zamane par mushkil paree to,
ALI(AS) MUSHKIL KUSHA ban gaye.

-------

Habib-e-khuda nai khuda sai dua ki
zaroorat hai mushkil main mushkil kusha ki
mitannay ko zulmat k tanveer dai day
jihad-e-mukhalif ko shamsheer dai day
shujaat ki ek zinda tasveer dai day
dia hai jo Quran to tafseer dai day
agar chahata hai k hoo deen kamil
Imamat ko ker dai Risalat main shamil
dua ho rahi thi k awaz aeee
RASOOL APNA KABAY SAI LAI AOO BHAI
KAABAY MAI 2 JANHAAN KA SULTAN AAGAYA...!
BOLAY NABI BOLTA QURAN AAGAYA...!
KERNAY LAGA KHUDA YAI MOHOMMAD SAY GOFTOGO...!
TOHEED O RISAALAT KA NIGEHBAAN AAGAYA...!

Br. shiraz.virani
Wrote:

if we go with sunni point of view then again we have al-bukhari, tirmidhi and other famous hadith collector who in their sahih said there was no one present at the time of burial.

Kindly present those Ahadith. I tried to find it but could not.

BR. Aly_shallwani

Can you document what you have posted? By posting Shia or any other Hadith sources.

According to Sahih Muslim Ibn ‘Abbās narrated that:

When Allah's Messenger was about to leave this world, there were persons (around him) in his house, 'Umar b. al-Kbattab being one of them. Allah's Apostle said: Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that. Thereupon Umar said: Verily Allah's Messenger is deeply afflicted with pain. You have the Qur'an with you. The Book of Allah is sufficient for us. Those who were present in the house differed. Some of them said: Bring him (the writing material) so that Allah's Messenger may write a document for you and you would never go astray after him And some among them said what 'Umar had (already) said. When they indulged in nonsense and began to dispute in the presence of Allah's Messenger, he said: Get up (and go away) 'Ubaidullah said: Ibn ‘Abbās used to say: There was a heavy loss, indeed a heavy loss, that, due to their dispute and noise. Allah's Messenger could not write (or dictate) the document for them.

Sahih Muslim 13:4016



Book 13, Number 4015:

Sa'id b. Jubair reported from Ibn Abbas that he said: Thursday, and what about Thursday? Then tears began to flow until I saw them on his cheeks as it they were the strings of pearls. He (the narrator) said that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bring me a shoulder blade and ink-pot (or tablet and inkpot), so that I write for you a document (by following which) you would never go astray. They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace upon him) is in the state of unconsciousness.


@ above our rasool[saw] wanted to write a will but he was stopped by h.umar saying quran is sufficient for us.

ill post some more hadiths tomorrow


as i said last time , the more we look in the past [hadiths] the more we gonna curse each other out


ya ali madad

Br. shiraz.virani

AS

@ above our rasool[saw] wanted to write a will but he was stopped by h.umar saying quran is sufficient for us.

I read the hadith you posted please show me where he says he wanted to write will?
He said

Come, I may write for you a document; you would not go astray after that.

Nobody knows what document he had in mind.

May be he wanted to tell his Ummah never to abondone Salat (aka Namaaz) and Roza in Ramadan and Hujj and Zakat.
Those were main things he emphasized for Muslims. As far as I am concerned these are most important things. We believe a Muslim will not go astray if he pray 5 prayers and fasts in Ramadan.

Wasalaam

It is mentionned in Bukhari that the Prophet [PBUH] wanted to write his last will before he died but was stopped from it. He was sick and out of strenght, he keept asking for something to write but was stopped to do that.

No doubt he wanted to write something which he knew the Muslims will not do if it was not written, since everything else had been said and done.

This is part of Muslim history, we have to recognised that it is part of the history.

Denying does not sere any purpose other then those of the ones that stopped him from writing.

Admin

AS

t is mentionned in Bukhari that the Prophet [PBUH] wanted to write his last will before he died but was stopped from it. He was sick and out of strenght, he keept asking for something to write but was stopped to do that.

I understand your interpretation. Kindly post Bukhari Hadit. Does it say document or will?

Wasalaam

bro m0786

wa'salam


brother do you think our holy prophet[saw] will write his biography or memoir on his death bed ??

ofcourse he wanted to write something valuable which could keep the ummah united , but unfortunately our beloved prophet[saw] was stopped...but that doesnt mean that he couldnt finish his job ....according to shia school of thought he did so at ghadeer e khum where he proclaimed imam ali[as] as imam after him and h.umar being the first to accept imam ali[as] as his mushkil khusha.

history in the past was repeated, lemme remind you the story of h.musa[as] where he appointed his brother h.haroon[as] as caliph/imam after him but the people refused to believe him and started worshipping calf as allah [ making circles etc etc] ....when musa[as] came back he was very angry with h.haroon[as] for the simple reason that he couldnt take care of his ummah....but that was not the case, h.haroon[as] warned his people not to worship but they did !

do you think allah[swt] was unaware of this while h.musa was in his presence ?????????

ofcourse he knew, that was a test to see who follows the noor [mazhar/vicegerent] and who follows conjecture[spell check]

samething happened during the time of imam ali[as], not just imam ali[as] ...you take the history right from h.ibrahim[as] till shah karim al hussaini[allahuma saleh allah muhammadin wa aale muhammad] , every imam had to make some sacrifice for the ummah, but what did ummah do for the imams ??????????

what did they do for the imam ???


as i told you last time brother the dispute will go on and on because everyone feels they are correct

iam still working on gathering enough info from the sunnis sources ,ima post it as soon as i can.

salam

yaa ali madad

Once Caliph Abu Bakar was delivering a sermon from the minbar, pulpit which was used before him exclusively by Prophet Muhammad. Hazrat Hassan who was 8 years old and present in the mosque shouted at the caliph to come down from the pulpit of his grandfather. Hazrat Abubakar came down and lifted Hazrat Hassan in his arms lovingly and confirmed that it was true that minbar belonged to His grandfather.
(From Brief History of Ismailism)

There are a number of books which tells the details of what Caliphs has done against Hazrat Ali, whereas history books also tells on other hand that the caliphs used to consult Hazrat Ali on different matters particularly, there are statements of Umar Farooq about Ali, when he was highly impressed with wise decessions and suggestions of Mowla Ali.

Anyways we should remember what our Imam has written in this regard "We Ismailis now in the same spirit accept the Khalifat of the first Khalifs and such other Khalifs as during the last thirteen centuries helped the cause of Islam, politically, socially and from a worldly point of view. On the other hand the Spiritual Imamat remained with Hazrat Aly and remains with his direct descendants always alive till the day of Judgement...."

I am not sure what is the big fuss about whether the prophet said “will” or “document”. I agree with Star and others that our Imam has accepted the Khilafat of the first three in the broader interest of uniting the Ummah and as such we should let it go and in that essence the subject of this thread is not appropriate. I believe the topic is about Prophet not being allowed to write what he wanted to and how many muslims attended the funeral of the holy Prophet.

Briefly coming back to what the Holy Prophet wanted to write (dictate) and leave behind for the Ummah so they may “never go stray” is highly debatable. Depending upon who you ask, we will get differing views as there is no way to know what the Prophet had in mind, delirious or not. The question to really ponder upon is why the Prophet wanted to leave written document behind. He himself said “after which you will never go astray”. This is the key sentence in his request. Omar said the Quran was enough for them. If Quran was really enough then my question is – Did the Prophet not know that? Why then he still insisted for a pen and paper. Obvioiusly Quran was not enough and therefore he wanted something specific left behind in writing so whenever muslims are faced with the possibility of going astray, they could refer to that document. Unfortunately we will never find out. Here I would like to quote brother m0786 and respond to it in kind.

Quote:
May be he wanted to tell his Ummah never to abondone Salat (aka Namaaz) and Roza in Ramadan and Hujj and Zakat.
Those were main things he emphasized for Muslims. As far as I am concerned these are most important things. We believe a Muslim will not go astray if he pray 5 prayers and fasts in Ramadan.
Unquote

My two cents:

Brother, if just performance of rituals could keep one from going astray, then I could name a few hundred people who are 5 timers and also fast the whole month of Ramadan but corrupt down to the core. So the 5 prayers and fasting has not saved them. Yazid is the perfect example yet he was the Ulil-Amr of muslims. Had he not gone astray?

Brother M0786 asked to present facts and authenticated hadith and not hearsay and then he posted a link about the Prophet’s burial, which I believe is exactly that. In his long article Muhammad Husayn Haykal does not give the sources of his information or events mentioned therein, may be I missed them. Wasn’t Haykal a political figure more so than religious? Please correct me if I am wrong. Anyways, the article (translation thereof) is controversial at best as is evident in the translator’s preface on the home page. Just like brother M0786 rejected the contention that majority muslims, specially the leaders, were not present at the burial, we can reject this whole article based on the fact that it is not backed by any trustworthy source. In my studies I had come across a hadith wherein upon return to the Prophets house Abu Bakr cursed and lamented himself for missing out on the funeral by heeding to Umar’s advice to go to Saqifa bani Saad. I have since misplaced that article and therefore wouldn’t argue based on that. But then no one can produce any hadith suggesting that Umar/Abu Bakr were there either, now can you? Some say that the event of Saqifa went on for two or three days and we know Prophet’s body wouldn’t be waiting two or three days for its last rites. And if they were present who do you think would have offered Namaz-e-janaza? Abu Bakr, wouldn’t you think? If you look at all the scenarios surrounding that particular time, all suggest they weren’t present and place them both at Saqifa bani Saad.
.
In today’s time, it is very difficult to rely totally upon hadith literature as there are thousands of ahadith which some ulemas want to re-assess. I think some are secretly working on it and a time will come when they will produce an edited version of authentic ahadith acceptable to both Shias and Sunnis.

Now back to “will” or “document”. Let’s call it “instructions”. What difference does that make. The meat of the argument is that some muslim leaders were more concerned about the leadership falling into the hands of Ansars after the Prophet’s death and therefore left to attend to that event. Ali and other sahabas in the meantime did what was urgent and that to bury the Prophet’s body. Not very many people could participate in the burial because most did not know the Prophet had passed away. The document could not have been a “will” as the Prophet did not have any worldly possessions except land of Fadak. If he wanted to write a will about his personal properties, how could that have kept the Ummah from going astray? And Fadak was already given to his daughter Fatima which is a whole different story. Prophet’s worldly possessions were his Ummah and he was concerned about their guidance and that is the reason why he mentioned “after which you will never go astray”. Emphasis was on “never”, not Salat, Zakat or Fasting.

I found the following two ahadith in Bukhari

Al-Bukhari

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 716:
Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Thursday! And how great that Thursday was! The ailment of Allah's Apostle became worse (on Thursday) and he said, fetch me something so that I may write to you something after which you will never go astray." The people (present there) differed in this matter, and it was not right to differ before a prophet. Some said, "What is wrong with him ? (Do you think ) he is delirious (seriously ill)? Ask him ( to understand his state )." So they went to the Prophet and asked him again. The Prophet said, "Leave me, for my present state is better than what you call me for." Then he ordered them to do three things. He said, "Turn the pagans out of the 'Arabian Peninsula; respect and give gifts to the foreign delegations as you have seen me dealing with them." (Said bin Jubair, the sub-narrator said that Ibn Abbas kept quiet as regards the third order, or he said, "I forgot it.")

Al-Bukhari

Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."

One last comment about the hadith literature. Muslims wrote down what the Prophet forbade them to (his sayings/hadith) and did not allow to be written what he wanted to on his death bed. And gentlemen, that is the irony!

Promote peace and pluralism.

Pardesi.

AS

Brother, if just performance of rituals could keep one from going astray, then I could name a few hundred people who are 5 timers and also fast the whole month of Ramadan but corrupt down to the core. So the 5 prayers and fasting has not saved them. Yazid is the perfect example yet he was the Ulil-Amr of muslims. Had he not gone astray?

'Bug Bhagats' are in eveery religian and sects. Infact true belivers are in minority. Yazid was Baaaaad and he will get his just reward.

m0786,

Do you think the use of "radiallah anhu" (ra) at the mention of Yazid's name is appropriate?

Call them Hippocrates in place of Bug Bhagats.

We are not discussing Yazid.

m0786 wrote:Call them Hippocrates in place of Bug Bhagats.

We are not discussing Yazid.

Yes, you are right. We will come to that in due time. In the meantime lets get back to the subject of who was present at the Prophet's funeral. Could you please enlighten us as to who was present and what happened from the time of Prophet's death till the time immediately after he was burried backed by few sahih hadith? I couldn't find anything in Bukhari and was wondering if it was just me or the muhaddateen messed up. I am surprised that something as grand as this was not related in the hadith literature even though they have not missed anything from his life, including his intimate life. May be you could find it for us.

Here is chpter on last illness of Prophet

SAW.http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sira/26.htm

It is from

Sirat Rasoul Allah
The earliest biography of Muhammad, by ibn Ishaq
An abridged version

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sira/index.htm

Here is what ‘wicky’ says about Sirat of Rasul Allah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirah_Rasul_Allah

Correction

Here is chpter on last illness of ProphetSAW.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sira/26.htm

Bro m0786,

Thank you for posting the links to those articles. Very interesting. I remember reading this article, although not in its entirety. Towards the end, the 26th chapter "last illness", it sounds more like "Seerah of Abu Bakr" as it seems the writer is more interested in praising Hz. Abu Bakr by injecting heavily statements to justify the sunni view of this event. It does not talk about Saqifa Bani Saad, it does not talk about the "pen and paper" that the Prophet demanded, it does not talk about the confrontation that Hz. Ali had with the sahaba upon their return from the political event of Saqifa bani Saad, etc. Remember, the event of Saqifa bani Saad is a historical event and can not be denied.

Like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, you get different versions of this event, depending upon who you ask but this event has been whitewashed from the hadith literature. Guess under whose watchful eyes the hadith literature was prepared? Why hundreds of thousands of ahadith were related by Abu Huraira and only a few by the Ahle Bayt, or Salman Farsi or other close ashaabs.

The Wiki link you provided does not cite any reference or source and therefore I did not care to read it any further.

I am more interested in discussing the event of Prophet's funeral and burial. If you have any differing views then please back them with sahih hadith.

Thanks.

By human nature our eyes are colored by our faith and different people see same thing defferently. So I do not blame you if you feel that this chapter favoured Abu Bakr.

Please remember that this is abridged version and full version is not net.

Martin Lings has very good biography of Prophet. Last chapter is more detailed.

Here is something worth reading;

Ali ibn Abi Talib
http://www.sunnah.org/publication/khula ... aliph4.htm


For science of Hadith, See this

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... f&oq=&aqi=

I must admit that the Statement of MHI on Khilafat and Imamat was very gracefull and soothing. His call for acception of rule of 3 Khalifas as civil and Imamat of Ali RA as religious authority is excellent and should be accepted and appriciated by both Shia and Sunnis.

Brother m0786,

I really think it is biased. Like I said in my post earlier, the writer left out some very important occurances surrounding that event. And it actually sounded like the seerah of Abu Bakr. We both see it differently. Lets say we are both right.

I appreciate the kind words and appreciation of MHI's statement. If you have any questions about our faith, beliefs or practices you will find us forthcoming. But please don't question our faith, beliefs or practices. There is a difference and we take it seriously.

People have a right to ask questions and generally speaking I have found that some have made a career out of abusing Ismaili faith and its followers and their Imams. That is not appreciated.

But please don't question our faith, beliefs or practices. There is a difference and we take it seriously.

I have not.

I have seen Ismailis mocking beliefs of Muslims in reference to Salat, Roza, Hujj, Wadhu etc. on this board. I do hope they read up scholarly books on both Sunni and Majority of Shia faith. Remember lots of info is on the Net and is one Google search away.

Of course we have minor differences in Madhabs and we consider it as Allah's mercy

BTW you failed to notice or comment on;

Ali ibn Abi Talib
http://www.sunnah.org/publication/khula ... aliph4.htm

I found following very interesting.

The innovations of those who bore excessive love and admiration for `Ali appeared in his own lifetime and he himself fought them in word and deed.

To those that claimed that the Prophet had appointed him as successor after him he said:

"In truth, Allah’s Messenger did not appoint any successor" and: "The Prophet was taken from us, then Abu Bakr was made the successor, so he did as the Prophet had done and according to his path until Allah took him from us; then `Umar was made the successor, so he did as the Prophet had done and according to his path until Allah took him from us." To those that claimed that he deserved the Caliphate better than Abu Bakr and `Umar he said: "The best of this Community after its Prophet are Abu Bakr and `Umar."[I believe this is from Najaul Balaga}

To those that either hated him or overly loved him `Ali said: "Two types of people shall perish concerning me: a hater who forges lies about me, and a lover who over-praises me."

To those that claimed that he or his family possessed other than the Qur’an which all Muslims had he said:

"Whoever claims that we have something which we read other than the Qur’an has lied."

Finally, when a group of people came to him saying: "You are He, you are our Lord! (anta Hû anta Rabbuna)" he had them executed and then ordered the bodies burnt.

m0786 wrote: I have not.

I have seen Ismailis mocking beliefs of Muslims in reference to Salat, Roza, Hujj, Wadhu etc. on this board. I do hope they read up scholarly books on both Sunni and Majority of Shia faith. Remember lots of info is on the Net and is one Google search away.

Of course we have minor differences in Madhabs and we consider it as Allah's mercy

As you can see (from the number of posts from me) I am not an active participant but I do come to this website regularly. I have noticed that people on these forums here, atleast most of them, are really interested in talking and learning about their own tariqa. Some want to learn the old fashioned way by asking questions about things they have heard from the missionaries and some who are well educated want to see and understand it at a different level. Almost all of the controversial posts from the Ismailis are in response to the non-ismailis who come here to stir things up by questioning our beliefs or calling us "kafirs" etc. I beg to differ with you when you said Ismailis have been mocking your rituals. I see it as a stiff response. You are right about reading up some scholarly books to understand why others do things different than us before we indulge into arguments. Ignorants (bug bhagats as you call them) are in every sect.

I agree that being the hosts we should not be abusive towards others who come here and should respond in kind. Getting strict and keeping everyone in line is Admin's responsibility. But this problem is multiplied when you visit anti-shia and anti-ismaili websites. Compared to them this website and its members are very receptive.