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Vicegerent of Allah?
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InTheNameOfAllah



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: Vicegerent of Allah? Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad,

I had a question in regards to the Verse in the Holy Quran, "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a Vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." (Surah 2:30)

Now I believe Vicegerent of Allah was from Prophet Adam and/or Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib. Basically the Noor of Allah given to Adam, and all other prophets, and then to Imam Ali and of course all other Imams. However, it says the following on the IIS (Ismaili Institute of Islam) site:

"The central emphasis of Islam's ethical ideal is enablement of each person to live up to his exalted status as vicegerent of God on earth, in whom God has breathed His own spirit and to whom He has made whatever is in the heavens and the earth, an object of trust and quest".

So it is saying that we people are the Vicegerent of God on earth, which does not make any logical sense to me per say, as again, I thought it was Prophet Adam along with other Prophets, Imam Ali etc... that are the Vicegerent of God. I am aware also that we mankind, all contain the Noor of Allah in all of us (Soul). But Prophet Adam and/or Imam Ali would be in the actual Noor of Allah Himself, the face of God, the vicegerent of God.

My question is, who really is the Vicegerent of God on earth? I now question this even though it defys logics because it is mentioned on the IIS site, which is what I would take to be authentic as it would be approved by the Ismaili Council, and hence Hazar Imam Himself?

How can we mankind, be a vicegerent of God on earth? Would it not evidentally be Prophet Adam, and/or Imam Ali? Not to forget that Prophets have the Noor of Allah to guide, as it mentions in the Holy Quran that "We take it upon Ourselves to guide (Surah 21:12), and Imam Ali mentioned in His sermon that He is the Face of God. Also, Sultan Muhammad Shahs firman made in Vadi Jamatkhana, March 16, 1902 said:

"There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself"

The underline point here is that if the above firman etc.. is true, then what is said on the IIS site of we mankind being vicegerent of God on earth would be contradictory to everything else, and also logics in my belief.


Inshallah, I hope to hear back from someone that knows for sure, with authentic information on this question.

Link for the IIS site I was refering to (Please see "The AKDN Mandate"):

http://www.iis.ac.uk/view_article.asp?ContentID=101094
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19309

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A vicegerent by definition is someone who exercises delegated power. We all are in a sense empowered by God to behave responsibly in our relationship to environment and the society and are answerable to him. Each person is answerable according to his means in terms of wealth and knowledge. Those in authority have a higher degree of accountability than ordinary persons. Hence we have degrees of vicegerency, the Prophets and the Imams have a greater degree. In his speech to the Asia Society in New York in 1979, MHI said:

“In my own commitment to the well-being of the Ismaili community, I have come to be ever more concerned with the physical form that the Islamic world of the future will take: the houses we live in, our places of work, the institutions that serve us, the gardens and parks where we rest, the markets and, of course, the mosques. How will they look? And how will they affect our perceptions of the world and of ourselves? As descendants of the magnificent builders of Islam's golden age, how will we build the Islamic world of the future? Indeed will the Islamic environment of tomorrow be identifiably ours?

These are not frivolous questions: all beings are affected positively or negatively by their surroundings but for Muslims it is a particularly critical matter. Islam does not deal in dichotomies but in all encompassing Unity. Spirit and body are one, man and nature are one. What is more, man is answerable to God for what man has created.”

There are interesting articles on environment and spirituality at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=862&start=0
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brother, i would like to ask you a veryyyy simple question icon_smile.gif

AREN'T WE ALL SON OF H.ADAM [AS] ???????????

if YES, which ofcourse is the correct answer then we all are vicegerant of allah[swt]

And He taught Adam the names of all things" (HQ 2: 31)

The verse points to what made Adam qualified for being Allah’s Vicegerent on earth. Allah has been supporting Adam and his children by continuous revelations and guidance, yet the ability to discern between the Truth and illusion, and to uncover the embedded knowledge needs a great deal of work from Adam's children. Their ultimate achievement is to be in the rank of Servant of Allah, so they can be in complete serenity and security:

…, there comes to you guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be Companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein." (HQ 2:38-39)

The potential of being God's Servants was given to the children of Adam. Therefore, this potentiality put a great responsibility on the human beings' shoulders. If they follow the Path of Allah, surrender to His Divine Law, they prepare themselves to be His Servants. In Arabic, the root of ‘Abdullah servant of Allah is derived from the three letters ‘a.b.d which if put together with certain pronunciation “abbada” means “to prepare” or “to pave the way”. “Abdullah” is s/he who surrenders her/himself to Allah, so that Allah prepares her/him for Himself:

And I have prepared thee for Myself (HQ 20:41)

“Heavens and Earth contain Me not, but the heart of my believing Servant contains Me” .
Used by Al Ghazali in Ihia Ulum Al Din

Man prepares himself to Allah, when s/he focuses on how to climb the ladder to achieve being His Servant. His first step is to live up to the knowledge of the Oneness of Allah where purifying the heart is a prerequisite:

O thou man! Verily thou art ever toiling on towards thy Lord - painfully toiling - but thou shalt meet Him" (HQ 84:6).

and NOW COMES A TWIST icon_wink.gif


We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof: but man undertook it; - he was indeed unjust and foolish" (HQ: 33:72).

trust is nothing but the HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE without which he/she is indeed UNJUST and FOOLISH , If he/she keeps this Trust and follows its inspiration, he/she achieves his/her goal.

To represent Allah on earth as Vicegerent (Khalifa) gives Man the chance to be in complete harmony with the Divine.


The complete harmony or surrender to the Divine transforms a human being from her/his illusive untrue existence to the realm of reality and truth. This inner transformation, which might not be seen to the common observer, empowers a Servant of God with the capacity to foresee the wisdom and the truth beyond the common mind. Some of the prophets had obvious supernatural power to show people that the Almighty God can bestow that power upon whom He chooses to be His Servants. Jesus (PBUH) is but an example:

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it, and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave
(HQ 5:110).

With our naïve mind we think that those whom Allah bestows on them His capability of the secret word "BE", will do for us what we wish to do but cannot. We also may try to increase our time of worship to gain this aptitude, putting in mind that we will have a super power, through which we can achieve our noble dreams. This is a misunderstanding of the teachings, because the one who will surrender completely to Allah, her/his will reflects Allah's will. S/he would have no supernatural interference with the universe. S/he surely will have this shining light from Allah, and her/his presence may transform the attendants if they are ready to receive. The power of truth in man can change the world. It happened with all prophets, not abruptly, but gradually. Moses (PBUH) for example saved the children of Israel and could escape the tyranny of the Pharaoh. That was a miracle. , not only could heal the ill, bring life to the dead and so on, but his call had spread all over the world and caused the failure of the most powerful Empire at that time. Needless to say that Muhammad's presence and the message he carried transformed Arabia, and made a breakthrough in the Human history.

The chance to be Servant of God and His vicegerent is not given only to prophets, but it can be given to whoever surrenders to the law fully and get free from the illusion completely. It is not necessary that a Servant of God will do miracles, because the most miraculous thing of all is to act and say out of the embedded Truth within one's heart, not out of hawa. Like him like Zakariyya who came out from solitude to inspire his people to remember God day and night:

So Zakariya came out to his people from his chamber: he told them through inspiration to celebrate Allah's praises in the morning and in the evening. (HQ: 19: 11).

He aimed for nothing but the Truth, and sought only God.

It has been the message of all revelations to teach man how to be linked to the Origin of life and to realize her/his potentials. But the Islamic teachings stress the value of being a Servant of God without reducing man into a mere vanishing being, and without magnifying him to be a god.


all the prophets and imams are the vicegerant of allah[swt] on earth...why ? because they are the possesors of hidden knowledge which is bestowed to them from allah [swt]....thus they are the door that leads us to the divine as prophet jesus [pbuh] said in bible

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Joh: 14:6)
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InTheNameOfAllah



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<STRONG>Ya Ali Madad,</STRONG><BR><BR>Firstly, thank you both K<SPAN class=name>maherali and S<SPAN class=name>hiraz Virani </SPAN></SPAN>very, very much for your kind&nbsp;and knowledgeable replys.<BR><BR>I totally agree with what you say Shiraz, however in my point of view there is o&shy;ne small thing I don&#39;t completely agree upon, and please feel free to give me your insight if you feel its wrong.<BR><BR>Yes, we mankind I guess are the viceregent of God as you explained it, as I also follow alot of things to do with the Power of Your Subconscious Mind (Soul/Spirit of God) installed in us by God, and by the way, if you&nbsp;have not read that book by Dr. Joseph Murphy, I strongly suggest you do!. <BR><BR>Back to the main point though, when you mentiond the following Verse in the Bible for example,<STRONG>):<SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.</SPAN> (Joh: 14:6)",</STRONG> and you also mentioned this: "All the prophets and imams are the vicegerant of allah[swt] o&shy;n earth...why ? because they are the possesors of hidden knowledge which is bestowed to them from allah [swt]....thus they are the door that leads us to the divine as prophet jesus [pbuh] said in bible".&nbsp;That is where I would say that in my opinion would be false, and I&#39;ll tell you why.<BR><BR>Allah says in some verses in the Holy Qu&#39;ran, "<STRONG>And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications</STRONG>." (Surah 21:73)<BR><BR><STRONG>"Verily We take upon Ourselves to guide"</STRONG> (Surah 92:12)<BR><BR>Now, there are of course many other verses like that, but the main point is that Allah Guides Himself. Which is why Christians in all due Respect, put partners with&nbsp;God per say, they go through Jesus to God, the Son of God. So when we pray to Hazar Imam for example, that is the Noor of Allah, that is Allah, we don&#39;t go through Imam to Allah. Thats why there are Verses like the o&shy;nes stated above in the Holy Quran. However, its important to note that, and even Sultan Muhammad Shah said this Himself, not in the exact wordings: "If when the Imam&#39;s physical form dies, and you mourn it, that is Idol worshiping." Also, Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib Himself mentioned the follwing with the same context: <STRONG>"With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is o&shy;n the middle course"<BR><BR></STRONG>So what Imam Ali is saying is that those who love Him too much, as in Ali the man, (Idol worshipping), and those who hate him, but the best man regards Him as the middle course(Noor of Allah). None other than Allah.<BR><BR>Its also worth mentioning again that Sultan Muhammad Shah said in his firmans as I mentioned in my earlier post the following: <STRONG>"There is no o&shy;ne greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no o&shy;ne except Myself".<BR></STRONG><BR>Anyways, my underline point&nbsp;is, and I am very convinced o&shy;n this, that we don&#39;t go through anyone to get to Allah, but&nbsp;we go to Allah Himself, no parters, no sons, no nothing.<STRONG>&nbsp;"Allah guides to His Light whom He Pleases"</STRONG> (Surah 24:35) Allah just has to take o&shy;n a&nbsp;psychical form in order to communicate with us.<BR><BR>Please feel free to respond your thoughts&nbsp;on this, and thank you again for your time and effort and answeing my question!<BR><BR><STRONG>Ya Ali Madad.</STRONG>
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InTheNameOfAllah



Joined: 23 Oct 2009
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Sorry, please ignore other post)

Ya Ali Madad,

Firstly, thank you both Kmaherali and Shiraz Virani very, very much for your kind and knowledgeable replys.

I totally agree with what you say Shiraz, however in my point of view there is one small thing I don't completely agree upon, and please feel free to give me your insight if you feel its wrong.

Yes, we mankind I guess are the viceregent of God as you explained it, as I also follow alot of things to do with the Power of Your Subconscious Mind (Soul/Spirit of God) installed in us by God, and by the way, if you have not read that book by Dr. Joseph Murphy, I strongly suggest you do!.

Back to the main point though, when you mentiond the following Verse in the Bible for example,):I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (Joh: 14:6)", and you also mentioned this: "All the prophets and imams are the vicegerant of allah[swt] on earth...why ? because they are the possesors of hidden knowledge which is bestowed to them from allah [swt]....thus they are the door that leads us to the divine as prophet jesus [pbuh] said in bible". That is where I would say that in my opinion would be false, and I'll tell you why.

Allah says in some verses in the Holy Qu'ran, "And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications." (Surah 21:73)

"Verily We take upon Ourselves to guide" (Surah 92:12)

Now, there are of course many other verses like that, but the main point is that Allah Guides Himself. Which is why Christians in all due Respect, put partners with God per say, they go through Jesus to God, the Son of God. So when we pray to Hazar Imam for example, that is the Noor of Allah, that is Allah, we don't go through Imam to Allah. Thats why there are Verses like the ones stated above in the Holy Quran. However, its important to note that, and even Sultan Muhammad Shah said this Himself, not in the exact wordings: "If when the Imam's physical form dies, and you mourn it, that is Idol worshiping." Also, Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib Himself mentioned the follwing with the same context: "With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course"

So what Imam Ali is saying is that those who love Him too much, as in Ali the man, (Idol worshipping), and those who hate him, but the best man regards Him as the middle course(Noor of Allah). None other than Allah.

Its also worth mentioning again that Sultan Muhammad Shah said in his firmans as I mentioned in my earlier post the following: "There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself".

Anyways, my underline point is, and I am very convinced on this, that we don't go through anyone to get to Allah, but we go to Allah Himself, no parters, no sons, no nothing. "Allah guides to His Light whom He Pleases" (Surah 24:35) Allah just has to take on a psychical form in order to communicate with us.

Please feel free to respond your thoughts on this, and thank you again for your time and effort and answeing my question!

Ya Ali Madad.
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i totally understand where you coming from brother but i wanna clear something before we proceed

1] vicegerent of allah[swt]
2] vicegerent of prophet[saw]


vicegerent of allah[swt] = human beings [ashraful maklukaat]

vicegerent of prophet[saw] = ali ibn abu talib [as].....the very first imam of shia imamis


are you getting my point....to further clear your doubts lemme give you the hadith of our holy prophet[saw] :

"This Ali is my brother in this world and in the Hereafter; he is my successor from among my kin and my Vicegerent among my umma; he is the heir of my knowledge and the payer of my debt; whatever he owes to me, I owe to him. His profit is my profit, and his loss is my loss; one who is his friend is my friend; one who is his enemy is my enemy."


in short imam ali[as] was/is vicegerent of rasool[saw] among his ummah...now its completely fine with me if you treat him as a guide , hujjat of allah or noor of allah


In the same Mawadda, he quotes a hadith from Anas bin Malik, which I have mentioned earlier. Toward its end he says that the Holy Prophet said, "He (Ali) is my Vicegerent and helper."


Muhammad Bin Ganji Shafi'i quotes a hadith from Abu Dharr Ghifari in his book, Kifayatu't-Talib, that the Prophet said, "The flag of Ali, the commander of the believers, the leader of the bright-faced people, and my Vicegerent, will come to me at the Fountain of Kauthar."

There is the "Hadith of Creation," which has been narrated in different ways. Imam Bin Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, Mir Seyyed Ali Hamadani in Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in Manaqib, and Dailami in Firdaus have quoted the Prophet as saying: "I and Ali were created of the same Divine Light 14,000 years before Adam was created. From the loins of the Prophet Adam and through his holy progeny, the Light was inherited by Abdu'l-Muttalib, and from him it was divided and inherited by Abdullah, (father of the Prophet) and Abu Talib, (father of Ali). I was granted prophethood, and Ali was granted the caliphate."


Ibn Abbas reports that the Prophet said: "O Ali, you are the bearer of my knowledge, my Wali and friend, my successor, the heir of my knowledge, and my Caliph. You are the trustee of the heritage of all the preceding prophets. You are the confidant of Allah on this earth and Allah's proof for the whole of creation. You are a pillar of Iman (faith) and the guardian of Islam. You are a lamp in darkness, a light of guidance, and for the people of the world you are a raised standard. O Ali! He who follows you is delivered; he who disobeys you will perish; you are the luminous way, and a straight path; you are the leader of pure men, and the head of the believers; to whomsoever I am Master (Maula), you are also his Master (Maula), and I am the Master of every believer (man or woman). Only he is your friend who is born of lawful wedlock. Allah did not transport me to the heavens to speak with me without telling me, 'O Muhammad! Convey my salutation to Ali and tell him that he is the Imam of my friends and the Light of worshippers.' Congratulations to you, O Ali, on this marvelous excellence."

Abu Mu'ayyid Muwafiqu'd-Din, the best orator of Khawarizm, in his Faza'il of the Commander of the Faithful, printed in 1313 A.H., Chapter XIX, page 240, quotes the sources who reported that the Prophet said: "When I reached Sidratu'l-Muntaha ('the farthest Lote Tree,' the highest station during the Mi'raj), I was addressed thus: 'O Muhammad! When you tested the people, whom did you find the most obedient?' I said 'Ali.' Allah then said, 'You have told the truth, Muhammad!' Further, He said, 'Have you selected a Vicegerent who will convey your knowledge to the people, and teach my servants from My Book those things which they do not know?' I said, 'O Allah! Whomever you select, I will select.' He said, 'I have selected Ali for you. I make him your Vicegerent and successor.' And He furnished Ali with His knowledge and forbearance. He is the Commander of the Faithful whom no one can equal in rank among his predecessors or successors."



hope i answered your question
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1257

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[2:124] Recall that Abraham was put to the test by his Lord, through certain commands, and he fulfilled them. (God) said, "I am appointing you an imam for the people." He said, "And also my descendants?" He said, "My covenant does not include the transgressors."
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HassanHJamal



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:50 am    Post subject: Brother Reply with quote

I am not Alwaez nor even very expert in religious matters.
But you are comparing Hazrat Adam (A.S.) with Hazrat Ali (A.S.). In my opinion there is no comparison between the two. Hazrat Adam (a.s.) was the first Prophet (Messenger of Allah) followed by Nuh (a.s.), Ebrahim (a.s.), Mussa (a.s.), Issa (a.s.) and finally by our Beloved and the greatest of all Prophets Muhammed (s.a.s.) These were Prophets of Allah, in other words "messengers of Allah". Hazrat Ali (a.s.) was never a Prophet of Allah. He was Hazrat Ali, nothing else. During the time of Prohet Muhammed (s.a.s) and particularly when the life of our last Prophet was coming close to end, during his last pilgrimage to Macca, Allah sent a revelation to his last Prophet to stop at the intersection of Gadhir-e-Khum (still holds the same name today) and convey to the people (roughly a caravan of 125 thousand people of men, women and chidren) to reveal to the people about the shortness of his life and the need to appoint his successor after his death. In other words, in continuous process, Prophet Muhammed (s.a.s.) handed over the "steering wheel" to Hazrat Ali (a.s.) as the first IMAM and successor of Prophet which will go unbreakably until the day of judgement, period. No ifs, buts or whens.
So my suggestion to you is, just hold strong to the path of siratul-mustakim, ignore all the IIS or any reading because they are all man-made and every man can have different interpretations. Even the Holy Book of Qu'ran are the translation by different individuals, which one is correct translation is something that nobody knows. This does not apply in our "Faith" as you know. Just follow the "ginans" and you will find all the answers to your questions about "Religion" is concerned. What I say in my interpretation can be different from anybody else's interpretation so please do not follow even my interpretation. Lisen to the "ginans" when they are recited in JK and if you do not understand something ask a knowledgeable person in our Jamat, but you do not have to accept it.
As you grow older and keep practising the understanding of our "ginans" the more and more you will understand. Be the judge of yourself and keep looking for answers until the end of life, and you will be commensurated accordingly in the next world, Insha-Allah.
Hope my interpretation will help you understand a little more about our "Faith".
Hassan Jamal
hassanjamal66@hotmail.com
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So my suggestion to you is, just hold strong to the path of siratul-mustakim, ignore all the IIS or any reading because they are all man-made and every man can have different interpretations.


IIS's some publications has big question mark!! and few books published by IIS has been criticized by many specially some books of 'F.D. and A.A.

Quote:
What I say in my interpretation can be different from anybody else's interpretation so please do not follow even my interpretation. Lisen to the "ginans" when they are recited in JK and if you do not understand something ask a knowledgeable person in our Jamat, but you do not have to accept it.


I don't think your interpretation is wrong but if you accept Hazarat Adam had Allah's noor then same noor Hazarat Ali had, if you accept Hazarat Ali (s.a.) as Imam then you can call Hazart Adam (s.a.) as an Imam too Imamat didn't started from Hazarat Ali (s.a.) but Imamat was there before Hazarat Ali and if you read 'VISHNUPURI' written by pir Sadardin then you will find names of 77 PATRAS who had Imamat and Hazarat Adam was one of this list.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19309

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

I don't think your interpretation is wrong but if you accept Hazarat Adam had Allah's noor then same noor Hazarat Ali had, if you accept Hazarat Ali (s.a.) as Imam then you can call Hazart Adam (s.a.) as an Imam too Imamat didn't started from Hazarat Ali (s.a.) but Imamat was there before Hazarat Ali and if you read 'VISHNUPURI' written by pir Sadardin then you will find names of 77 PATRAS who had Imamat and Hazarat Adam was one of this list.

Hazarat Adam was a Prophet, not an Imam. There is a difference between Imamat and Prophethood.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is very common belief even small childrens know this fact brother that Prophet Adam(s.a.) was prophet not only Muslims believes that but Christians and Jews also believe and accept that Prophet Adam (s.a.) was 1st prophet.
But we Ismailis have little different approch towards Prophet Adam( s.a.) as per pir Sadardin's Vishnupuri Prophet Adam (s.a.) was prophet and he had noor of Imamat too, please read the list below and if you still not agree that Adam was not holder of Imamat then kindly answer me following questions:-
We all accept Prophet Abraham (s.a.) as a prophet and that is right first he was prophet and after the sacrifice of Prophet Ismail Allahtala blessed him Imamat too, so obviously he had two post Prophet hood and Imamat after the sacrifice, am I right? not only this but Allahtala mentioned in Quran that Imamat will be continue in his family till the day of Qayamat, after Abraham, that proves that Imamat was there before Hazarat Ali (s.a.)
is this right or wrong?
2, When Prophet Abraham can hold two post prophet hood and Imamat and ( this is quoted in Quran) then why not Prophet Adam can not have two post???? I am not telling this sir Pir Sadardin said this and he wrote in 'VISHNUPURI" please see the list below, this list is taken from our Old Dua it call 77 patras this patras are nobody else but they were the holder of Imamat.



THE BEARER OF
THE NOOR- E-ALI (SHRI VISHNU) as per the Vishnupuri

1. shri ahunah, 2. shri alakh, 3. shri naamnil,
period of 4. shri anil, 5. shri soon, 6. shri saan,
three 7. shri naan, 8. shri ginan, 9. shri noor,
'karans' 10. shri tej, 11. shri jal, 12. shri kamal,
13. shri adbudh, 14. shri jaag, 15. shri tantaw,
16. shri premtantaw, 17. shri aad furush,

(shri brahma ) --- incarnation of "the nabi,"
(shri ahunad aad ) the "noor" was in batin
(shri avigat aad) )

period of four 'kalaps'

1. shri haw, 2. shri kaw, 3. shri dharam
4. shri keshaw, 5. shri tawnaad, 6. shri utra,
7. shri haritak, 8. shri pururwa, 9. shri anta atita,
10. shri premrukh,



period of four 'yugas' (das avtar)

shri maccha

1. manaek, 2. ajamil 3. agarsen,
4. ochhaut, 5 . bharesp at, 6. asvamitar,
7 . pautar, 8. padwir,

shri korabh

9. bhisriyat, 10 . dikhiyat, 11. prajapat,
12. agarsen, 13 . kadim, 14. doel,

shri varah,

'patra 77' 15. keshav, 16. khatrivash, 17. asaaw,
the bearers 18. unas, 19. khalifat, 20. gotam,
of the 21. anta shri vishnu 22. haritak,
"noor-e-ali"

shri narshinha,

23. manaek, 24 . kauchak, 25. repak,
26. keshvadhan, 27. keshvarukh,

shri vaeman

2 8. maandhata, 29. prathmijay,
30. jaesrin, 31. javlagan,

shri farsiram

32. roog, 33 . noog, 34 . ju jeaat, 35. kumbra,
36. alif, 3 7 . ajepaal, 38. dashrath,



shri ram,

39. padam, 40. jashvadhan, 41. virpaar, 42. vaasudev,


shri krishna (ka' an),

43. parikhshat, 44. janmejay, 45. shesanand, 46. satanand,
47. swas than, 48. budsthan, 49. vinvachhraaj,


shri budha (adam),

50. shish (seth), 51. sham, 52. salaam, 53. malkaan,
54. eslaam, 55. haroon, 56. shamunnsaffa (simon peter),
57. adnaan, 58. maa' d, 59. nizar, 60. mudar,
61. eliaas, 62. mudrak, 63. khuzema, 64. kinan,
65. nazar, 66. maalek, 67. fahar, 68. gaaleb,
69. luve, 70. ka'ab, 71. mure, 72. kilaab,
73. kus e, 74. abdul munaaf, 75. abu hasham,
76. abdul mutlib, 77Abu Taleb


-

shri naklanki mowla murtaza ali

Names of) Vishnu's ancestors:

. 1. mowlana 'Aly; 2. mowlana Husayn; 3. mowlana Zainil 'Abideen; 4. mowlana Muhammadinil Baqir; 5. mowlana Ja'faris Sadiq; 6. mowlana Ismail; 7. mowlana Muhmmad bin Ismail,
8. mowlana Wafi Ahmed; 9. mowlana Taqi Muhammad; 10. mowlana Raziyiddeen Abdillah; 11. mowlana Muhammadinil Mahdi; 12. mowlana Qaim; 13. mowlana Mansoor; 14. mowlana Mu'izz;

15. mowlana Aziz; 16. mowlana Hakim bi Amrillah; 17. mowlana Zahir; 18. mowlana Mustansiribillah; 19. mowlana Nizar; 20. mowlana Hadi: 21. mowlana Muhtadi,
. 22. mowlana Qahir: 23.mowlana 'Ala Zikrihis-Salaam; 24. mowlana A'ala Muhammad; 25. mowlana Jalaliddeen Hasan; 26. mowlana 'Ala-iddeen Muhammad; 27. mowlana Rukniddeen Khairi Shah; 28. mowlana Shamsiddeen Muhammad;

29. mowlana Qasim Shah; 30. mowlana Islam Shah; 31. mowlana Muhammad bin Islam Shah; 32. mowlana Mustansiri-billah; 33. mowlana Abdis-Salaam; 34. mowlana Ghareeb Meerza; 35. mowlana Abizzar Aly:
36. mowlana Murad Meerza; 37. mowlana Zulfiqar Aly; 38. mowlana Nooridden Aly; 39. mowlana Khalilillahi Aly; 40. mowlana Nizar; 41. mowlana Sayyid Aly; 42. mowlana Hasan Aly;

. 43. mowlana Qasim Aly; 44. mowlana Abul Hasan Aly; 45. mowlana Khalilillahi Aly; 46. mowlana Shah Hasan Aly; 47. mowlana Shah 'Aly Shah; 48. mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.




49. mowlana shah karim al-husseini imam-e-zaman




Please visit these links below for more detail and interesting discussion:-
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=123&highlight=77+patra
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shiraz.virani



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks agakhani bhai

Last edited by shiraz.virani on Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total
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shiraz.virani



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
period of four 'yugas' (das avtar)

shri maccha

1. manaek, 2. ajamil 3. agarsen,
4. ochhaut, 5 . bharesp at, 6. asvamitar,
7 . pautar, 8. padwir,

shri korabh

9. bhisriyat, 10 . dikhiyat, 11. prajapat,
12. agarsen, 13 . kadim, 14. doel,

shri varah,

'patra 77' 15. keshav, 16. khatrivash, 17. asaaw,
the bearers 18. unas, 19. khalifat, 20. gotam,
of the 21. anta shri vishnu 22. haritak,
"noor-e-ali"

shri narshinha,

23. manaek, 24 . kauchak, 25. repak,
26. keshvadhan, 27. keshvarukh,

shri vaeman

2 8. maandhata, 29. prathmijay,
30. jaesrin, 31. javlagan,

shri farsiram

32. roog, 33 . noog, 34 . ju jeaat, 35. kumbra,
36. alif, 3 7 . ajepaal, 38. dashrath,



shri ram,

39. padam, 40. jashvadhan, 41. virpaar, 42. vaasudev,


shri krishna (ka' an),

43. parikhshat, 44. janmejay, 45. shesanand, 46. satanand,
47. swas than, 48. budsthan, 49. vinvachhraaj,


shri budha (adam),

50. shish (seth), 51. sham, 52. salaam, 53. malkaan,
54. eslaam, 55. haroon, 56. shamunnsaffa (simon peter),
57. adnaan, 58. maa' d, 59. nizar, 60. mudar,
61. eliaas, 62. mudrak, 63. khuzema, 64. kinan,
65. nazar, 66. maalek, 67. fahar, 68. gaaleb,
69. luve, 70. ka'ab, 71. mure, 72. kilaab,
73. kus e, 74. abdul munaaf, 75. abu hasham,
76. abdul mutlib, 77Abu Taleb



All this sri budha, sri krishna ,sri ram etc etc were prophets right ?? Because as per 48th imam[as] in his memoirs he wrote that all these were prophets[as]....am I right ???
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Agakhani bhai .....Where can i find vishnupuri written by pir....can you post a link please ??

Shiraz,

You can find 'VISHNUPURI" ( the list of bearers of Imamat ) in our old Dua,but The list of these 77 patras I posted above just before of your this post.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

But we Ismailis have little different approch towards Prophet Adam( s.a.) as per pir Sadardin's Vishnupuri Prophet Adam (s.a.) was prophet and he had noor of Imamat too, please read the list below and if you still not agree that Adam was not holder of Imamat then kindly answer me following questions:-

Just to clarify the Adam mentioned in the list is not Hazarat Adam. Budh Avatar initiated another cycle of Imamat called Adam Avatar, just as Hazarat Aly was called Naklanki Avatar. Hazarat Adam was the son of Sri Budh (Imam Hanoyd).

Hazarat Adam was never an Imam. He was a son of the Imam. His son Shish became the Imam.
agakhani wrote:

We all accept Prophet Abraham (s.a.) as a prophet and that is right first he was prophet and after the sacrifice of Prophet Ismail Allahtala blessed him Imamat too, so obviously he had two post Prophet hood and Imamat after the sacrifice, am I right? not only this but Allahtala mentioned in Quran that Imamat will be continue in his family till the day of Qayamat, after Abraham, that proves that Imamat was there before Hazarat Ali (s.a.)
is this right or wrong?
[/quote]

Hazarat Ibrahim according to Ismaili tradition never became the Imam. His son Hazarat Ismael became the Imam. The lineage of Imamat is distinct. Hazarat Ibrahim is not mentioned in the Vishanapuri.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Agakhani bhai .....Where can i find vishnupuri written by pir....can you post a link please ??

The Vishanapuri is given in the thread below.

Doctrines --> Imam

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=636&start=0
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:

All this sri budha, sri krishna ,sri ram etc etc were prophets right ?? Because as per 48th imam[as] in his memoirs he wrote that all these were prophets[as]....am I right ???
The 48th Imam mentions Guatama Budhha who is different than Sri Budh. In Ismaili tradition Sri Ram and Sri Krishna were essentially Imams, they could have assumed the role of Prophethood as well. The Imam refers to them as 'Divinely-inspired messengers'.
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shiraz.virani



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In Ismaili tradition Sri Ram and Sri Krishna were essentially Imams, they could have assumed the role of Prophethood as well.


So is it correct to say that rasool[saw] was both a prophet[as] and imam[as] during his lifetime ???
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:

So is it correct to say that rasool[saw] was both a prophet[as] and imam[as] during his lifetime ???

No, he was not an Imam according to our tradition. He was a Pir.
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shiraz.virani



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No, he was not an Imam according to our tradition. He was a Pir.


Maherali bhai im confused now !!!!......H.Adam[as] was a prophet[as] and not a Imam....H rasool[saw] was a prophet[as] and not a Imam.....Sri Krishna and Sri Ram were prophets and Imams ???

How it is that some prophets[as] can also be imam's[as] of their time where as few prophets[as] aren't ???

All these years I used to think that rasool[saw] was shah/pir during his time i.e until the day he proclaimed H.Imam Ali[as] as the imam[as] icon_question.gif
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shiraz.virani wrote:

Maherali bhai im confused now !!!!......H.Adam[as] was a prophet[as] and not a Imam....H rasool[saw] was a prophet[as] and not a Imam.....Sri Krishna and Sri Ram were prophets and Imams ???

How it is that some prophets[as] can also be imam's[as] of their time where as few prophets[as] aren't ???

All these years I used to think that rasool[saw] was shah/pir during his time i.e until the day he proclaimed H.Imam Ali[as] as the imam[as] icon_question.gif

Not all prophets are Imams. Hazarat Isa was not an Imam. Hazarat Musa was not an Imam.

The Imams can assume any role or function in this world. Sometimes they are little known and sometimes they are widely known. Sometimes they can assume the role of a prophet as well.

Our 48th Imam made the following Farman:

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

It is quite clear from the above Farman that the Prophet was a Pir who appointed Hazarat Hasan to carry out this role.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hazarat Ibrahim according to Ismaili tradition never became the Imam. His son Hazarat Ismael became the Imam. The lineage of Imamat is distinct. Hazarat Ibrahim is not mentioned in the Vishanapuri.


My bad, you are right, I check the Vishnupuri from old dua there is no name of Hazarat Ibrahim, thanks for the correct me Kbhai.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All these years I used to think that rasool[saw] was shah/pir during his time i.e until the day he proclaimed H.Imam Ali[as] as the imam[as]


Shirazbhai,

If you have 'OLD GATPATHA DUA" you will find the list of 49 pirs too alongwith names of 77 patras ( till Mowlana Sultan Mohammad Shah) in this list Prophet Mohammad quoted as our first pir and not as a Imam.

૧,અવ્વલ પીર નબી મુહંમદ મુસ્તફા
૨, પીર હસન

1, Avval Pir Nabi Muhammad Mustafa
2, Pir Hasan
3,4-5-6
48, Sultan Mohammad Shah.
So, it is clear that Prophet Mohammad (s.a.) was not Imam but he was pir as per the list written by pir Sadardin in VISHNUPURI.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Quote:
Hazarat Ibrahim according to Ismaili tradition never became the Imam. His son Hazarat Ismael became the Imam. The lineage of Imamat is distinct. Hazarat Ibrahim is not mentioned in the Vishanapuri.


My bad, you are right, I check the Vishnupuri from old dua there is no name of Hazarat Ibrahim, thanks for the correct me Kbhai.


prophet Hazrat Ibrahim was paying Dassond to his father who was Imam.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Admin"]
agakhani wrote:

prophet Hazrat Ibrahim was paying Dassond to his father who was Imam.

It would be nice to have references....
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shiraz.virani



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
prophet Hazrat Ibrahim was paying Dassond to his father who was Imam.


Are you talking about melchizedek ?? ....If yes, how do you know that he was his father ?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because he is known as Malik ul Salam (Melchisedek) from which the Imamat descended to Ismail the son of Ebrahim.

There are plenty of reference to Melchisedek as previous Imam and God ordained to Ibrahim to give the Dassond to Melchisedek.

When I was young I had written an article on this subject but it is already more then a couple of decades so it is not handy anymore. Just "google" this words "melchisedek ismailism", you may find the info you need.

In Wikipedia you find a footnote saying: 82. Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, C. Glasse, Ismailis: "(Ismaili's believe in) a 'permanent Imam' (namely Malik Shulim, Malik Yazdaq, Malik as-Salim - all different names for Melchizedek - Ma'add, the ancestor of the North Arabians, and, again, Ali..."

There is an interesting article on this subject by Vajda titled: "Melchisedec dans la mythologie ismaélienne," J.A. CCXXXIV (1943/45)
173-183.

Ivanow: "Noms bibliques dans la mythologie ismaélienne," J.A. CCXXXVII<p>(1949): 249-255.

BUT this subject should not be discussed in pre-Adam forum. Melchisedek was post Adam, not pre-Adam. Please discuss this issue in the appropriate Forum.
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agakhani



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hazarat Ibrahim according to Ismaili tradition never became the Imam. His son Hazarat Ismael became the Imam. The lineage of Imamat is distinct. Hazarat Ibrahim is not mentioned in the Vishanapuri.


KBhai,

I am confused to read your above post that Hazarat Ibrahim was not an Imam as per Ismaili tradition!,so I research little bit more, I listened one waez related to Prophet Ibrahim and read quranic ayats in different languages in which I find out that he was awarded with imamat (NOT PROPHECY BECAUSE HE WAS ALREADY A PROPHET) after the sacrifice of his son Ismail, please read followng Quranic ayats translated by 'PICKTHALL":-

Sura Al-Baqar: 2-124
And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

Hazarat Abraham was already a Prophet before the sacrifice of his son, so there was NO need to appoint him as a prophet again !!?? now tell me it was not prophecy then in which post Allah appointed him?, wasn't it Imamat? What is meaning of "LEADER OF MANKIND'if the meaning is not Imamat? WAS THERE ANY HIGHER POST THEN PROPHECY?

More clarification will be helpful.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:

Hazarat Abraham was already a Prophet before the sacrifice of his son, so there was NO need to appoint him as a prophet again !!?? now tell me it was not prophecy then in which post Allah appointed him?, wasn't it Imamat? What is meaning of "LEADER OF MANKIND'if the meaning is not Imamat? WAS THERE ANY HIGHER POST THEN PROPHECY?

More clarification will be helpful.

During Hazarat Ibrahim's time, Imamat was not known to the world at large. It was restricted to a few murids only. So he could not have been appointed the Imam.

I think the verse refers to the Prophet getting a wider recognition than what he had.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Eternal Imam: Songs of Krishna – Sermons of ‘Al&#299;

http://ismailignosis.com/2012/08/15/the-eternal-imam-songs-of-krishna-sermons-of-ali/
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