Syed Imam Shah in Ginan Jeeray bhai ray.... says
Jeeray bhai ray GurNar ney tamey aik kari janoo....2
Elders of the Jamat versus Pluralism
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah :"Koi musalmaan hua to bara nahi hua.Agar tum khojey ho to aisa khayal na karo k hum bahesht main jaingey Ibadat bandagi karogey to bahesht mai jaogey."
In the light of above Farman its clear that if some one is muslim that not means that he is superior than others. If some one is Ismaili that not makes him or her to go to paradise. Ibadat is necessary to achieve salvation.
In the light of above Farman its clear that if some one is muslim that not means that he is superior than others. If some one is Ismaili that not makes him or her to go to paradise. Ibadat is necessary to achieve salvation.
unnalhaq:< However, Das Avataar, it took me a while to find what it meant, I am sorry this is fundamentally in contradiction to Islam. >
Please tell which Fundamental of Islam is violated due to the concept of Das Avatar.
Unnalhaq:<And I have found out that Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin has been pulled by the Present Imam. As you know times change and Imam knows when its time to help everyone move on. I was told buy the Canadian Jamet Khana Library and Tariqa board that KIM was taken out of Publication and Circulation upon The Imam's wishes around the same time (coinsideing) with the new Ismaili Constitution.>
Yes, KIM is pulled out from Ismaili Jamat in general.
unnalhaq: < I was also told that Noor-e-Mobin was pulled too.>
Yes, both the books are pulled out from Ismaili Jamat in general. To best of my understanding, this is done for the folowing purposse: There are many topics or informations in them which could be termed as sensitive, which, if disclosed improperly out of the jamat, could be interpreted incorrectly and hence, likely to create adverse and detrimental reaction to jamat from other mislim brothers. Please note that still Ismailism is under Taqiya, though may be in mild form, in many muslim countries . However, to my understanding, with the improvement of educational level in Islamic world, may be after 25 to 30 years people in general will be more tolerant towards others’ faiths. And at that time these books will be made available again to jamat.
One thing more: Copies of both the books are in possesion of Ismaili Tariqa Boards of India and Pakistan as well as in the library of IIS. At IIS they are available for reserch purpose( for use in the library only).
I hope I have clarified the matter. However, I have seen many Ismailis still have managed to get both the books, perhaps they were very curious and have managed some how to get such copies.
unnalhaq: < As you know times change and Imam knows when its time to help everyone move on.>
We can divide Farmans, in general, into two groups. The first group is relating to Social systems – such as economic, social custom and culture, political, health, education – these are time,locatin and technology bound, and hence become irrelavent once such conditions change.
For example: Farman of ISMS going to Burma in early twentieth century or the Farman of learning Burmese language etc.
The second group of Farmans are related to general truths which remain in force until the Imam of the Time specifically revises them. For example:
" Allah is eternal, His creation knows no limit in time nor in capability….. Indeed Allah has created man’s mind and what man perceives in scientific development is simply another aspect of Allah’s another creation. He create’s when He wishes and how wishes." (HI 15-5-1983).
Or take this Farman:
“Before Nabi Muhammed, Maula Murtaza Ali was with all theNabis in Batin (form) and at the time of Nabi Muhammed he was in Zaheri form with him. When nothing was there, Murtaza Ali took a small shape." (Farman of ISMS, KIM,page: 13, 15-10-1885)
unnalhaq: < I don't buy it. That the Ten Days and Ten Nights mentioned in Quaran is the correct interpretation of Das Avatar, sorry.>
Please let us knows what is the correct interpretation of it.
Would you please also explain and analyse this Farman. Also note that Das Avtar is well explained by Pir Sadardin.
"The essence of Quran is explained to you by Pir Sadardin in the Ginans" ( Farman,ISMS, 31-12-1893, KIM-1).
General: First read the following Farman:
"While working through the topics which you must discuss, I'm sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered. ( Message sent to All India Religious Conference held by Ismaili Association for India " 25-9-1964)
Our Islamic history is only 1400 years old, then which history does HI refer to as ' Thusands of years of History'? Again this he says in India and warns not to forget that past history.
Next, take this Farman:
"Arabic, of reading them in Persian , of reading them in Urdu , of reading them in Gujarati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written. More than ever today we must be able to publish authoritative documents based on primary sources. There is no point in us reading and rereading and rereading third hand or fourth hand documents. We can only get up tied up in other peoples’ interpretations, get further and further away from the original concept and thoroughly muddle and cloud what should be the truth … students to go out and to get the original material and to present the material in a logical form, because the very heart of Islam is logical. There is no ‘ hocus-pocus. There is no nonsense." ( Karachi, 27-9-1960)
What are original primary sources documents in Gujarati, or for that matter in any language ( such as Sindhi/ Khojaki) except Ginans, KIM ( both the parts) and Noorum Mubin? Isn't it clear that HI wants to go into these original sources besides the original sources in Arabic, persian etc?
Please read these Farmans and make your own judgement.
Please tell which Fundamental of Islam is violated due to the concept of Das Avatar.
Unnalhaq:<And I have found out that Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin has been pulled by the Present Imam. As you know times change and Imam knows when its time to help everyone move on. I was told buy the Canadian Jamet Khana Library and Tariqa board that KIM was taken out of Publication and Circulation upon The Imam's wishes around the same time (coinsideing) with the new Ismaili Constitution.>
Yes, KIM is pulled out from Ismaili Jamat in general.
unnalhaq: < I was also told that Noor-e-Mobin was pulled too.>
Yes, both the books are pulled out from Ismaili Jamat in general. To best of my understanding, this is done for the folowing purposse: There are many topics or informations in them which could be termed as sensitive, which, if disclosed improperly out of the jamat, could be interpreted incorrectly and hence, likely to create adverse and detrimental reaction to jamat from other mislim brothers. Please note that still Ismailism is under Taqiya, though may be in mild form, in many muslim countries . However, to my understanding, with the improvement of educational level in Islamic world, may be after 25 to 30 years people in general will be more tolerant towards others’ faiths. And at that time these books will be made available again to jamat.
One thing more: Copies of both the books are in possesion of Ismaili Tariqa Boards of India and Pakistan as well as in the library of IIS. At IIS they are available for reserch purpose( for use in the library only).
I hope I have clarified the matter. However, I have seen many Ismailis still have managed to get both the books, perhaps they were very curious and have managed some how to get such copies.
unnalhaq: < As you know times change and Imam knows when its time to help everyone move on.>
We can divide Farmans, in general, into two groups. The first group is relating to Social systems – such as economic, social custom and culture, political, health, education – these are time,locatin and technology bound, and hence become irrelavent once such conditions change.
For example: Farman of ISMS going to Burma in early twentieth century or the Farman of learning Burmese language etc.
The second group of Farmans are related to general truths which remain in force until the Imam of the Time specifically revises them. For example:
" Allah is eternal, His creation knows no limit in time nor in capability….. Indeed Allah has created man’s mind and what man perceives in scientific development is simply another aspect of Allah’s another creation. He create’s when He wishes and how wishes." (HI 15-5-1983).
Or take this Farman:
“Before Nabi Muhammed, Maula Murtaza Ali was with all theNabis in Batin (form) and at the time of Nabi Muhammed he was in Zaheri form with him. When nothing was there, Murtaza Ali took a small shape." (Farman of ISMS, KIM,page: 13, 15-10-1885)
unnalhaq: < I don't buy it. That the Ten Days and Ten Nights mentioned in Quaran is the correct interpretation of Das Avatar, sorry.>
Please let us knows what is the correct interpretation of it.
Would you please also explain and analyse this Farman. Also note that Das Avtar is well explained by Pir Sadardin.
"The essence of Quran is explained to you by Pir Sadardin in the Ginans" ( Farman,ISMS, 31-12-1893, KIM-1).
General: First read the following Farman:
"While working through the topics which you must discuss, I'm sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered. ( Message sent to All India Religious Conference held by Ismaili Association for India " 25-9-1964)
Our Islamic history is only 1400 years old, then which history does HI refer to as ' Thusands of years of History'? Again this he says in India and warns not to forget that past history.
Next, take this Farman:
"Arabic, of reading them in Persian , of reading them in Urdu , of reading them in Gujarati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written. More than ever today we must be able to publish authoritative documents based on primary sources. There is no point in us reading and rereading and rereading third hand or fourth hand documents. We can only get up tied up in other peoples’ interpretations, get further and further away from the original concept and thoroughly muddle and cloud what should be the truth … students to go out and to get the original material and to present the material in a logical form, because the very heart of Islam is logical. There is no ‘ hocus-pocus. There is no nonsense." ( Karachi, 27-9-1960)
What are original primary sources documents in Gujarati, or for that matter in any language ( such as Sindhi/ Khojaki) except Ginans, KIM ( both the parts) and Noorum Mubin? Isn't it clear that HI wants to go into these original sources besides the original sources in Arabic, persian etc?
Please read these Farmans and make your own judgement.
"Das Avtar" is the tenth reincarnation of Hindu gods.kasamali wrote: Please tell which Fundamental of Islam is violated due to the concept of Das Avatar.
The Avatar concept is a corner stone in Hindu philosophy. Avatar is a descent or a direct incarnation of God to ascent the mankind. Periodically the Supreme Lord Vishnu descents upon the earth, in animal or human forms and the mission is to preserve the world from the increasing evil. There are 10 avatars of Vishnu.
If you like here is the like to read more about it:
http://www.punditravi.com/dasavtar__the ... ons_of.htm
kasamali wrote: Copies of both the books are in possesion of Ismaili Tariqa Boards of India and Pakistan as well as in the library of IIS. At IIS they are available for reserch purpose( for use in the library only).
It is ironic that both of the books (KIM & Noor-e-Mobin) are available in countries that have more "mislim brothers” where it is "likely to create adverse and detrimental reaction to jamat" and pulled from countries where there is a freedom of religion? I think you need to go bask and ask the Indian and Pakistani TB and you'll find out that they are not available either. The point I am trying to make here is that times are changing so fast and many of the Non-Khoja-Ismailis are coming in contact with Khoja-Ismailis that even though they both follow the shia-ismaili-nazari doctrine but have their own unique traditions. One (Khoja-Ismailis) from the Hindu traditions who were converted to Ismaili faith and the others who were converted during the Fatimed periods and before. And the present Imam is tirelessly working on mainstreaming the jamets. Here are a few examples:kasamali wrote: There are many topics or informations in them which could be termed as sensitive, which, if disclosed improperly out of the jamat, could be interpreted incorrectly and hence, likely to create adverse and detrimental reaction to jamat from other mislim brothers.
The Present Dua, although it was introduced about 50 yrars ago but was a major change This change was first to Khoja-jamet and Syrian Jamets and then it is still being tricked into other jamets and still there are Ismailis where it has not reached yet.
Discouraged and eventually restricted access to passed Imams' and Pir's Burial/Birth grounds
New Jamet Khanas are being constructed with prayer halls facing Mecca.
Removal of the Imamet Thrown (Thaket, I think that is how it is spelled?); There two different tradition-jamets two unique representations of practiced.
Reductions and removals of Pictures in JKs
The point here is that we (non-khoja jamets) have different traditions and some of the above changes, as we here in States say saw the writing on the wall long ago. I think it is sometimes disheartening to see when one group (tradition of people) ignorantly tend to push their traditions onto others and are very overzealously pursuing that. A good example would be recent mulaqat (visit/audience/deedar) with the Syrian Jamets, and also Central Asia Jamets. You'll have to read objectively to the recounts posted here of people who the opportunity to be present there.
As we all know from Imams indications from farmans, speeches and interviews that the days are not too far where the practices are going to be more uniform. We can only guess what they may be and the Imam holds the ultimate authority.
Kasamali- In your post you are asking me for Quranic interpretation? Although the interpretation of Quran is the Imams progative, I was commenting on the connection that kmaherali drew from the translation of Qurainc verse sura Al- Fajr 89:1-5 to Das Avtar. It is cute when people quote or state a few lines with out stating or reading the entire passage in its context.
Some of the farmans that you quoted are from KIM. Two things here, once againg there is a reason why it was pulled (you need to broughten your understanding there) and secondly I can not authenticate them and furthermore I would have to read the entire farman in its context. Perhaps "Mola does not want me to read it?" just humor me here.
As to your question:
If you look at it in Quranic light (Imam=Speaking Quran) it reffers time after time of past Prophets, El-Al Katab, and mono theaisam (One God) to the time of creation. And once you add those past "Thousands of years of History" to 1400 years, you'll see what The Imam was saying.kasamali wrote: Our Islamic history is only 1400 years old, then which history does HI refer to as ' Thusands of years of History'? Again this he says in India and warns not to forget that past history.
Kasamali- I am pressed for time today and for next few months or so but I do intent to update this response, today and over time...
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Our theory of Das Awtaar is not Hindu mythology though it is found in Hindu Scriptures. It is in fact the explanation of the process of evolution in a simple manner, and understanding its relation to the Divine Guidance.
The Sanskrit word “awtaar” is generally misunderstood by most of us. It means to descend or descended; to change shape; the span of life; preface; one after another etc. So you see it does not mean God. It means descended, the Arabic equivalent of which is “naazil” or “munazzil”. These words have been extensively used in the Holy Quran where Allah mentions His Noor or His message.
Our Holy Imam Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah once explained the existence of the MACHHA-AWTAAR in these words:
“When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)
To read more please click the link below
http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanhist.html
The Sanskrit word “awtaar” is generally misunderstood by most of us. It means to descend or descended; to change shape; the span of life; preface; one after another etc. So you see it does not mean God. It means descended, the Arabic equivalent of which is “naazil” or “munazzil”. These words have been extensively used in the Holy Quran where Allah mentions His Noor or His message.
Our Holy Imam Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah once explained the existence of the MACHHA-AWTAAR in these words:
“When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)
To read more please click the link below
http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanhist.html
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Ya Ali Madad,
As I recommended you the waez of Abu Ali on topic of das avar in which he explained it from Islamic point of view. You will also came to know that this was not first introduced by Pirs who came to India to convert hindus but before that time also was claimed by Imam.
As far as Noorum Mubin is concerned. I have seen Noorum Mubin in Jamat Khana Library as well as Religious centre Library also from where elders and children can take this book for reading. Although its very rare now . There are so many books newly published on Ismaili history so these newly books which may have more information are more famous now.
Now as far as Old Dua is concerned. That Dua was made by Pir Sadardin [at the time of Imam Islam Shah] and it was recited by ismailis for a long time. The present dua is made by Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah.
As I recommended you the waez of Abu Ali on topic of das avar in which he explained it from Islamic point of view. You will also came to know that this was not first introduced by Pirs who came to India to convert hindus but before that time also was claimed by Imam.
As far as Noorum Mubin is concerned. I have seen Noorum Mubin in Jamat Khana Library as well as Religious centre Library also from where elders and children can take this book for reading. Although its very rare now . There are so many books newly published on Ismaili history so these newly books which may have more information are more famous now.
Now as far as Old Dua is concerned. That Dua was made by Pir Sadardin [at the time of Imam Islam Shah] and it was recited by ismailis for a long time. The present dua is made by Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
As you wrote New Jamet Khanas are being constructed with prayer halls facing Mecca.
Removal of the Imamet Thrown (Thaket, I think that is how it is spelled?);
Thats certainly a wrong inforation soe one has given to misguide you. Thats not. Do you have any authentitic refrence of it?
You wrote
The point here is that we (non-khoja jamets) have different traditions and some of the above changes, as we here in States say saw the writing on the wall long ago. I think it is sometimes disheartening to see when one group (tradition of people) ignorantly tend to push their traditions onto others and are very overzealously pursuing that
As you say about Khoj and Non Khoja, pluralism and unity. Who is imposing its tradition on others? Dont you think inorder to create unity we have to follow the traditions? There is difference between tradition and believes. Who made you traditions and believes? Do you think that words of Imam and Pir are equally important for all ismailis be it Khoja or non Khoja? Pir not means dai who made Ginans in subcontinent. There are many Ginans which are not made by Pir but Syeds and Many Pir who not composed Ginans. Dont you believe all ismaili Pirs?
Removal of the Imamet Thrown (Thaket, I think that is how it is spelled?);
Thats certainly a wrong inforation soe one has given to misguide you. Thats not. Do you have any authentitic refrence of it?
You wrote
The point here is that we (non-khoja jamets) have different traditions and some of the above changes, as we here in States say saw the writing on the wall long ago. I think it is sometimes disheartening to see when one group (tradition of people) ignorantly tend to push their traditions onto others and are very overzealously pursuing that
As you say about Khoj and Non Khoja, pluralism and unity. Who is imposing its tradition on others? Dont you think inorder to create unity we have to follow the traditions? There is difference between tradition and believes. Who made you traditions and believes? Do you think that words of Imam and Pir are equally important for all ismailis be it Khoja or non Khoja? Pir not means dai who made Ginans in subcontinent. There are many Ginans which are not made by Pir but Syeds and Many Pir who not composed Ginans. Dont you believe all ismaili Pirs?
What would be your interpretation of the verses?unnalhaq wrote: I was commenting on the connection that kmaherali drew from the translation of Qurainc verse sura Al- Fajr 89:1-5 to Das Avtar. It is cute when people quote or state a few lines with out stating or reading the entire passage in its context.
Last edited by kmaherali on Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You can claim the way you like but the fact is that when pirs were converting Hindus to Ismaili, the thread (connection to Imam) was used to Das Awtarr. Thanks got the link but I do you think if someone (Abu Ali) who preaches with the anti-Pluralism with racial over tones, has any credibility? (I am referring to AbuAli's lecture in Chicago in Dec 2004.) Especially when present Imam’s 2000 Farman asking for Pluralismstar_munir wrote:Our theory of Das Awtaar is not Hindu mythology though it is found in Hindu Scriptures. It is in fact the explanation of the process of evolution in a simple manner, and understanding its relation to the Divine Guidance.
To read more please click the link below
http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanhist.html
Again its like me asking you to go listen to or read Akbarally Meherally!star_munir wrote: As I recommended you the waez of Abu Ali on topic of das avar in which he explained it from Islamic point of view.
Are you kidding me! Go find out about Willowdale JK in Toronto, go find out about all recent JKs that have been built recently and the plans of in building process. My father visited Karachi in 1998, he found out that Thaket was moved from Kharadar (old DarKhana)JK to Garden East (the New DarKhana) and also it is not accessible to Jamet as it was when it was in Kharadar. It sounds to me is that you are lot closer to Garden East than I am and you can probably visit there and find out. I have all intentions to visit there very soon for just this purpose!star_munir wrote: As you wrote New Jamet Khanas are being constructed with prayer halls facing Mecca.
Removal of the Imamet Thrown (Thaket, I think that is how it is spelled?);
Thats certainly a wrong inforation soe one has given to misguide you. Thats not. Do you have any authentitic refrence of it?
You asksed:
I am glad we are moving towards the topic, the topic of pluralism. You need to go read one of the post here about Imam's visit to Syria, I'll try to update this post with the link. And I hope that will give a glimmer of light.star_munir wrote: As you say about Khoj and Non Khoja, pluralism and unity. Who is imposing its tradition on others?
Words of Imam and especially present Imam, Yes; that’s across the board.star_munir wrote: Do you think that words of Imam and Pir are equally important for all ismailis be it Khoja or non Khoja?
Words of Pirs, perhaps more so with Khoja Jamet, then me, myself. I can not answer or even dare to venture the guess with other Ismailis, Non-Khojas.
Again you don't have to believe in pirs to be an Ismaili, may be Hindu-Ismaili, correction, Khoja-Ismaili.star_munir wrote: Dont you believe all ismaili Pirs?
As I have said before the interpretation of Quranic Verses is the probative of the Imam of the time. I would be glad to give you my take on it from the literal translation from Arabic to English. And it can not be done in just few weeks; it may take me a few months or so. Stay tuned.kmaherali wrote:What would your interpretation of the verses?unnalhaq wrote: I was commenting on the connection that kmaherali drew from the translation of Qurainc verse sura Al- Fajr 89:1-5 to Das Avtar. It is cute when people quote or state a few lines with out stating or reading the entire passage in its context.
unnalhaq: < "Das Avtar" is the tenth reincarnation of Hindu gods.>
'Das Avtar' philosophy in Islamic sense is that Imam of the time has always been present on this earth and that there was not a single moment when this planet earth was without the physical presence of the imam.
Obviously, Hindu believers of ancient and even modern times have waved up many stories around the Avtars which do not represent the reality or the facts -- just like many such stories are waved around physical Mairaj of the last prophet or regarding Jesus and other personalities of Islamic history by believers of the faith. Wise have taken only the essence out of them. If I refer you to those Islamic sites or books which have waved such illogical stories, will you take them authentic? same is the case for us to take the stories of the website you suggested to us.
unnalhaq: <It is cute when people quote or state a few lines with out stating or reading the entire passage in its context. >
I still request you to please give your interpretation, perhaps we may change our opinion on this.
unnalhaq: <We can only guess what they may be and the Imam holds the ultimate authority.>
Is any Ismaili ever disputed about this ultimate authority ? Why did you raise this point?
unnalhaq:< New Jamet Khanas are being constructed with prayer halls facing Mecca.>
What if new Jamatkhanas directions are oriented that way? Why are you so much impressed and excited about such outer or exoteric changes ? What has it to do with Ismailism, which is always an esoteric or ' Batini' Tariqa. Please explain removal of Imamt throne?
What do you think about Rumi and Mansoor? Almost all the Muslim scholars of yester years and even many modern scholars and Alims consider them as heretic and ' Fitnaait'.
unnalhaq: <Discouraged and eventually restricted access to passed Imams' and Pir's Burial/Birth grounds >
Ismailism taught by our Pirs and KIM have not mentioned anywhere even a single line about giving any importance to any such Dargahs. I don't know why have you raised this issue? On the other hand, almost all the other Muslim brothers in India, Pakistan and else where are still visiting many Dargahs and pay homage to them.
unnalhaq: <There two different tradition-jamets two unique representations of practiced.
Reductions and removals of Pictures in JKs.>
Our Pirs have never taught us to worship or give importance to pictures of Imams. They have always taught us spiritualism, devotion and Love for Allah, the Noor of Ali.
People in old time, out of love, used to keep such pictures in Jamatkhanas which became a tradition which Maula has corrected, perhaps keeping Muslim ummah in mind.
Let me tell you: our Pirs as well as KIM have always taught the jamat on' esoteric' path as against ' exoteric' one,and hence all changes in outer aspects ( forms) has nothing to do with Ismailism. We give least importance to all such things.
unnalhaq: <Perhaps "Mola does not want me to read it?" just humor me here.>
Well, it's your prerogative if you don't want to read these Farmans as a whole. However, in case you become curious please visit IIS.
------
Lastly, somehow, in my earlier post the first lines of HI Farman of Karachi 27-9-1960 was missed out. I quote that Farman and my comments again. " The most important problem by far for us today is to create students who are capable of going back and of reading the original texts of our history, of reading this text in Arabic, of reading them in Persian , of reading them in Urdu , of reading them in Gujarati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written. More than ever today we must be able to publish authoritative documents based on primary sources. There is no point in us reading and rereading and rereading third hand or fourth hand documents. We can only get up tied up in other peoples’ interpretations, get further and further away from the original concept and thoroughly muddle and cloud what should be the truth … students to go out and to get the original material and to present the material in a logical form, because the very heart of Islam is logical. There is no ‘ hocus-pocus. There is no nonsense." ( Karachi, 27-9-1960)
What are original primary sources documents in Gujarati, or for that matter in any language ( such as Sindhi/ Khojaki) except Ginans, KIM ( both the parts) and Noorum Mubin? Isn't it clear that HI wants to go into these original sources besides the original sources in Arabic, persian etc?
Please read these Farmans and make your own judgement.
General comments: The essence of Ismailism is continuation of Imamt and hence Farmanbardari -- and to this we both agree. All other things are minors, and no one should enforce one's understanding of any minor aspect on the other. Let us agree to disagree on these minor points -- and that is also the pluralism within the Ismailis
'Das Avtar' philosophy in Islamic sense is that Imam of the time has always been present on this earth and that there was not a single moment when this planet earth was without the physical presence of the imam.
Obviously, Hindu believers of ancient and even modern times have waved up many stories around the Avtars which do not represent the reality or the facts -- just like many such stories are waved around physical Mairaj of the last prophet or regarding Jesus and other personalities of Islamic history by believers of the faith. Wise have taken only the essence out of them. If I refer you to those Islamic sites or books which have waved such illogical stories, will you take them authentic? same is the case for us to take the stories of the website you suggested to us.
unnalhaq: <It is cute when people quote or state a few lines with out stating or reading the entire passage in its context. >
I still request you to please give your interpretation, perhaps we may change our opinion on this.
unnalhaq: <We can only guess what they may be and the Imam holds the ultimate authority.>
Is any Ismaili ever disputed about this ultimate authority ? Why did you raise this point?
unnalhaq:< New Jamet Khanas are being constructed with prayer halls facing Mecca.>
What if new Jamatkhanas directions are oriented that way? Why are you so much impressed and excited about such outer or exoteric changes ? What has it to do with Ismailism, which is always an esoteric or ' Batini' Tariqa. Please explain removal of Imamt throne?
What do you think about Rumi and Mansoor? Almost all the Muslim scholars of yester years and even many modern scholars and Alims consider them as heretic and ' Fitnaait'.
unnalhaq: <Discouraged and eventually restricted access to passed Imams' and Pir's Burial/Birth grounds >
Ismailism taught by our Pirs and KIM have not mentioned anywhere even a single line about giving any importance to any such Dargahs. I don't know why have you raised this issue? On the other hand, almost all the other Muslim brothers in India, Pakistan and else where are still visiting many Dargahs and pay homage to them.
unnalhaq: <There two different tradition-jamets two unique representations of practiced.
Reductions and removals of Pictures in JKs.>
Our Pirs have never taught us to worship or give importance to pictures of Imams. They have always taught us spiritualism, devotion and Love for Allah, the Noor of Ali.
People in old time, out of love, used to keep such pictures in Jamatkhanas which became a tradition which Maula has corrected, perhaps keeping Muslim ummah in mind.
Let me tell you: our Pirs as well as KIM have always taught the jamat on' esoteric' path as against ' exoteric' one,and hence all changes in outer aspects ( forms) has nothing to do with Ismailism. We give least importance to all such things.
unnalhaq: <Perhaps "Mola does not want me to read it?" just humor me here.>
Well, it's your prerogative if you don't want to read these Farmans as a whole. However, in case you become curious please visit IIS.
------
Lastly, somehow, in my earlier post the first lines of HI Farman of Karachi 27-9-1960 was missed out. I quote that Farman and my comments again. " The most important problem by far for us today is to create students who are capable of going back and of reading the original texts of our history, of reading this text in Arabic, of reading them in Persian , of reading them in Urdu , of reading them in Gujarati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written. More than ever today we must be able to publish authoritative documents based on primary sources. There is no point in us reading and rereading and rereading third hand or fourth hand documents. We can only get up tied up in other peoples’ interpretations, get further and further away from the original concept and thoroughly muddle and cloud what should be the truth … students to go out and to get the original material and to present the material in a logical form, because the very heart of Islam is logical. There is no ‘ hocus-pocus. There is no nonsense." ( Karachi, 27-9-1960)
What are original primary sources documents in Gujarati, or for that matter in any language ( such as Sindhi/ Khojaki) except Ginans, KIM ( both the parts) and Noorum Mubin? Isn't it clear that HI wants to go into these original sources besides the original sources in Arabic, persian etc?
Please read these Farmans and make your own judgement.
General comments: The essence of Ismailism is continuation of Imamt and hence Farmanbardari -- and to this we both agree. All other things are minors, and no one should enforce one's understanding of any minor aspect on the other. Let us agree to disagree on these minor points -- and that is also the pluralism within the Ismailis
unnalhaq: Ya Ali Madad
Both the books of KIM (2 parts) and all Ginans are in the libraries of ITRB at Bombay and Karachi besides at IIS. But they are not meant for general public, they are there for research purpose.
Earlier Ismailis in Indo/Pak region use to follow some of the traditions of Hindu culture ( but certainly not Hinduism) as Taqiya, as a precaution against the persecution of Ismailis by orthodox Muslim rulers.
And now they have to follow similar Taqiya in some of the countries in the form of so called Islamic traditions ( in reality most of them were derived from paganism of Arabia).
Ismailism at a higher level in reality is neither this nor that. It emphasises on spiritual development of individuls; it is a Batini Tariqa; it is a path leading to Marifat. Outer forms, irrespective of what they are, are always time bound and of no significance. The essence of the essence is Marifat, recognition of reality of Imam of the Time.
Both the books of KIM (2 parts) and all Ginans are in the libraries of ITRB at Bombay and Karachi besides at IIS. But they are not meant for general public, they are there for research purpose.
Earlier Ismailis in Indo/Pak region use to follow some of the traditions of Hindu culture ( but certainly not Hinduism) as Taqiya, as a precaution against the persecution of Ismailis by orthodox Muslim rulers.
And now they have to follow similar Taqiya in some of the countries in the form of so called Islamic traditions ( in reality most of them were derived from paganism of Arabia).
Ismailism at a higher level in reality is neither this nor that. It emphasises on spiritual development of individuls; it is a Batini Tariqa; it is a path leading to Marifat. Outer forms, irrespective of what they are, are always time bound and of no significance. The essence of the essence is Marifat, recognition of reality of Imam of the Time.
The Three Hermits
To illustrate the importance of the 'Batini' aspect in our Tariqah - that it is not the form of worship that is important but the underlying devotion and intent, the following is a tale of a bishop who tried to change the form of prayers of three 'bhore mane srevo' type of hermits. It is hilarious and yet instructive. Enjoy!
The Three Hermits
The great novelist Leo Tolstoy wrote a delightful folk tale, The Three Hermits. His friend Nicholas Roerich summarised it, as follows:
"On an island there lived three old hermits. They were so simple that the only prayer they used was: 'We are three; thou art Three - have mercy on us!' Great miracles were manifested during this naive prayer.
"The local bishop came to hear about the three hermits and their inadmissible prayer, and decided to visit them in order to teach them the canonical invocations. He arrived on the island, told the hermits that their heavenly petition was undignified, and taught them many of the customary prayers. The bishop then left on a boat. He saw, following the ship, a radiant light. As it approached he discerned the three hermits, who were holding hands and running upon the waves in an effort to overtake the vessel.
"We have forgotten the prayers you taught us,' they cried as they reached the bishop, 'and have hastened to ask you to repeat them.' The awed bishop shook his head.
" 'Dear ones,' he replied humbly, 'continue to live with your old prayer!' "
* The story apparently has a historical basis; an editorial note informs us that the bishop met the three hermits while he was sailing from Archangel to the Slovestsky Monastery, at the mouthof the Dvina River.- Autobiography of a Yogi, Chapter 30
The Three Hermits
The great novelist Leo Tolstoy wrote a delightful folk tale, The Three Hermits. His friend Nicholas Roerich summarised it, as follows:
"On an island there lived three old hermits. They were so simple that the only prayer they used was: 'We are three; thou art Three - have mercy on us!' Great miracles were manifested during this naive prayer.
"The local bishop came to hear about the three hermits and their inadmissible prayer, and decided to visit them in order to teach them the canonical invocations. He arrived on the island, told the hermits that their heavenly petition was undignified, and taught them many of the customary prayers. The bishop then left on a boat. He saw, following the ship, a radiant light. As it approached he discerned the three hermits, who were holding hands and running upon the waves in an effort to overtake the vessel.
"We have forgotten the prayers you taught us,' they cried as they reached the bishop, 'and have hastened to ask you to repeat them.' The awed bishop shook his head.
" 'Dear ones,' he replied humbly, 'continue to live with your old prayer!' "
* The story apparently has a historical basis; an editorial note informs us that the bishop met the three hermits while he was sailing from Archangel to the Slovestsky Monastery, at the mouthof the Dvina River.- Autobiography of a Yogi, Chapter 30
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Ya Ali Madad
Unalhaq you wrote that "Thanks got the link but I do you think if someone (Abu Ali) who preaches with the anti-Pluralism with racial over tones, has any credibility? (I am referring to AbuAli's lecture in Chicago in Dec 2004.)"
How can you say that he preaches antipluralism. He has praised many times non Khoja ismailis also. I would like to know what he said in his lecture in chicago Dec 2004. If you dont like Abu Ali missionary than you may listen to others like Bahadur Ali etc but as you would not like to understand it in light of Ginans as you think that Ginans are not important for you thats why I recommended you the waez of Abu Ali as I know he once made waez in which he explained it from Islamic pointof view and also explained through thery of evolution.
For you the words of Imam are importance and you talk ablut pluralism and unity and there are countless Farmans on importance of Ginans.
Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah in Zanzibar
"Ginan main aapke deen ki poori wazahat mojood hai.Jis tarha aapke baap dada is deen per chal gaye hain isi tarha aap bhi chalna."
The description of our religion is in Ginans.But for some reasons if you find that there is difference in Ginan and Quran the reason is wrong translation or interpreatation of Quran and nothing else. Read the Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah of Zanzibar 5/7/1899 for that.
Mowlana Hazir Imam said,"There is a great philosophical insight in Ginans."
Unalhaq you wrote that "Thanks got the link but I do you think if someone (Abu Ali) who preaches with the anti-Pluralism with racial over tones, has any credibility? (I am referring to AbuAli's lecture in Chicago in Dec 2004.)"
How can you say that he preaches antipluralism. He has praised many times non Khoja ismailis also. I would like to know what he said in his lecture in chicago Dec 2004. If you dont like Abu Ali missionary than you may listen to others like Bahadur Ali etc but as you would not like to understand it in light of Ginans as you think that Ginans are not important for you thats why I recommended you the waez of Abu Ali as I know he once made waez in which he explained it from Islamic pointof view and also explained through thery of evolution.
For you the words of Imam are importance and you talk ablut pluralism and unity and there are countless Farmans on importance of Ginans.
Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah in Zanzibar
"Ginan main aapke deen ki poori wazahat mojood hai.Jis tarha aapke baap dada is deen per chal gaye hain isi tarha aap bhi chalna."
The description of our religion is in Ginans.But for some reasons if you find that there is difference in Ginan and Quran the reason is wrong translation or interpreatation of Quran and nothing else. Read the Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah of Zanzibar 5/7/1899 for that.
Mowlana Hazir Imam said,"There is a great philosophical insight in Ginans."
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
If you think that Farmans of Present Imam are important for each and every ismailis than you have to also accept the fact that Ginans are important for each and every ismaili wherever they live.As in Farman Hazir Imam said,"Hum ney kai martaba apney roohani bachoo ko takid Farmai hai k unko Ginan yad kerney chahiye, ye k unhei in Ginano k mainey [meanings] samajhney chahiye......ye nehaayat ahem [very very important] hai k hamaray roohani bachey khuwa [whether] kahin say hon inhe chahiye k wo zamano aur naslon tak is reewayet per kayam rahein....." [Karachi,Garden 16 December 1964]
As I had not this Farman in English I have given date and place and I also told meaning of difficult words. So Our Present Imam had also made many Farmans to learn and understand Ginans.
Pir Shams says
Jeney Ginan nahi suniya kaan k te bhoola pariya re lol
Also Pir Shams says
Eji je jev mera ilm nahi maaney
te gark gaya shaitani Eji
For more read Importance of Ginans in anectode section of this forum.
Now lets come to other points. You wrote recommending you to hear waez of Abu Ali is like for you to recommend me to read articles of Akber Ali MeherAli. Why? I would like to know why you wrote like this as Akbar Ali was former ismaili and enemy of ismailism where as Abu Ali is senior ismaili missionary so dont you think foolishness in comparing these two.
As you wrote me "Are you kidding me! Go find out about Willowdale JK in Toronto, go find out about all recent JKs that have been built recently and the plans of in building process"
I dont know about willowdale JK but this is what I read from an anti ismaili website [This website is updated from time to time so there is not point that the information is of past]
Since Allah is every where, Agakhani Ismailis feel themselves totally comfortable reciting his/her Holy Du'a, facing any direction or even with their backs to the Ka'bah. Some of the recently constructed multi-million dollar Jamatkhanas in North America are so built that the main congregation has their backs facing Mecca
I would like to read what Imam said in syria..But as you wrote
Words of Imam and especially present Imam, Yes; that’s across the board.
Words of Pirs, perhaps more so with Khoja Jamet, then me, myself. I can not answer or even dare to venture the guess with other Ismailis, Non-Khojas.
So the words of Imam are important for all than what about what Imam said in mission conference. “When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)
Again for a moment lets leave every thing and see how much its true practically. Is there any practical evidence or not? Then again read Darshan of Das Avtar in anecdotes section of this forum. If you would like to know similar with present Imam then this is what happened in year 1991 in Pakistan,Karachi
When Hazar Imam left Garden Jamat Khana on On November 6th at 7:00 pm, a
large crowd had gathered near the road. Amongst the throng of Muslims
stood
two Hindu ladies who were waiting for the Imam. Because of the heavy
rush,
the Aga Khan Volunteers were forced to cordon off the crowd with a rope.
As
the car approached the women, Imam moved from one side of the seat to the
other, opened the window and revealed His Holy Face. Just then, the rope
broke exactly where these women were standing. They stepped forward
towards
the car and received the Imam's Holy Didar. Imam then closed the window.
The
Ismaili Volunteers were astonished at this incident. When the Imam
departed,
they approached the women and asked about it. The women said, "We are not
Muslims, but Hindus. Our lord Krishna told us in a dream last night thst
He
would make His appearance on a road neat the Jamat Khana of the Khoja
Ismailis in the midst of a large crowd. Indeed, today we have seen our
Lord!"
Now think when and where Imam performed this miracle and what Imam want to show by this miracle. When Imam perform any miracle there is purpose behind it.
As I had not this Farman in English I have given date and place and I also told meaning of difficult words. So Our Present Imam had also made many Farmans to learn and understand Ginans.
Pir Shams says
Jeney Ginan nahi suniya kaan k te bhoola pariya re lol
Also Pir Shams says
Eji je jev mera ilm nahi maaney
te gark gaya shaitani Eji
For more read Importance of Ginans in anectode section of this forum.
Now lets come to other points. You wrote recommending you to hear waez of Abu Ali is like for you to recommend me to read articles of Akber Ali MeherAli. Why? I would like to know why you wrote like this as Akbar Ali was former ismaili and enemy of ismailism where as Abu Ali is senior ismaili missionary so dont you think foolishness in comparing these two.
As you wrote me "Are you kidding me! Go find out about Willowdale JK in Toronto, go find out about all recent JKs that have been built recently and the plans of in building process"
I dont know about willowdale JK but this is what I read from an anti ismaili website [This website is updated from time to time so there is not point that the information is of past]
Since Allah is every where, Agakhani Ismailis feel themselves totally comfortable reciting his/her Holy Du'a, facing any direction or even with their backs to the Ka'bah. Some of the recently constructed multi-million dollar Jamatkhanas in North America are so built that the main congregation has their backs facing Mecca
I would like to read what Imam said in syria..But as you wrote
Words of Imam and especially present Imam, Yes; that’s across the board.
Words of Pirs, perhaps more so with Khoja Jamet, then me, myself. I can not answer or even dare to venture the guess with other Ismailis, Non-Khojas.
So the words of Imam are important for all than what about what Imam said in mission conference. “When there was nothing but fish on earth, God stood as Witness and you must have no doubt to that kind of witness from above.”(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, 1945)
Again for a moment lets leave every thing and see how much its true practically. Is there any practical evidence or not? Then again read Darshan of Das Avtar in anecdotes section of this forum. If you would like to know similar with present Imam then this is what happened in year 1991 in Pakistan,Karachi
When Hazar Imam left Garden Jamat Khana on On November 6th at 7:00 pm, a
large crowd had gathered near the road. Amongst the throng of Muslims
stood
two Hindu ladies who were waiting for the Imam. Because of the heavy
rush,
the Aga Khan Volunteers were forced to cordon off the crowd with a rope.
As
the car approached the women, Imam moved from one side of the seat to the
other, opened the window and revealed His Holy Face. Just then, the rope
broke exactly where these women were standing. They stepped forward
towards
the car and received the Imam's Holy Didar. Imam then closed the window.
The
Ismaili Volunteers were astonished at this incident. When the Imam
departed,
they approached the women and asked about it. The women said, "We are not
Muslims, but Hindus. Our lord Krishna told us in a dream last night thst
He
would make His appearance on a road neat the Jamat Khana of the Khoja
Ismailis in the midst of a large crowd. Indeed, today we have seen our
Lord!"
Now think when and where Imam performed this miracle and what Imam want to show by this miracle. When Imam perform any miracle there is purpose behind it.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
As a ismaili we have to believe in Pir as well as Imam. The Green color of ismaili flag represents Pir and Red colour Imam. As I told you that Pir not means the one who made Ginans. Ginans are composed by many who were not Pir like Syed Imam Shah,Syed Mohammad Shah,Syed Fateh Ali Shah etc. The words of Pir are like words of Imam as I quoted verses of Ginan before Syed Imam Shah in Ginan Jeeray bhai ray.... says
Jeeray bhai ray GurNar ney tamey aik kari janoo....2
Gur is Pir and Nar is Imam. Present Imam is also Pir therfore we say Him our Spiritual Mother and Father. Imam Hussain was Imam and his brother Hazrat Hassan was Pir. The word for both Imam and Pir in arabic is Imam therefore we may hear saying Imam Hassan but Hazrat Hassan was actually Pir . I think in Arabic we call Pir Imam Mustwada. You may find names of all Ismaili Pirs in old dua in this website.
Jeeray bhai ray GurNar ney tamey aik kari janoo....2
Gur is Pir and Nar is Imam. Present Imam is also Pir therfore we say Him our Spiritual Mother and Father. Imam Hussain was Imam and his brother Hazrat Hassan was Pir. The word for both Imam and Pir in arabic is Imam therefore we may hear saying Imam Hassan but Hazrat Hassan was actually Pir . I think in Arabic we call Pir Imam Mustwada. You may find names of all Ismaili Pirs in old dua in this website.
Re: The Three Hermits
kmaherali wrote: the importance of the 'Batini' aspect in our Tariqah - that it is not the form of worship that is important but the underlying devotion and intent,
Removal of photos from JK, orientation of JK or changes in prayers etc., are all the outer forms of ' Batini' Tariqa. Every such outer form itself has its own inner meaning, which is its essence. Concentrate on the essence. The essence is that nothing can surpass devotion and Love for Him.
Unjust act done out of Love
is thousands time better
than all pious acts done
without any trace of devotion
I'm not looking for secondary causes
Knowing well that they are not the origin
I declare am not the form worshiper
but the essence that form hides within.
'Form' is only outward appearance
' Meaning' is its inward unseen reality
'Form' is the shadow
Meaning, the Sun.
Do not go after Forms
it is just like the Foam
Remaining always in constant motion
covering the reality of the ocean
With eyes of yours you see
only the form, of no sense
Get the help of the heart( Love)
and look for the essence
The ocean is vast enough
Nobody knows its depth and end
start your journey now
as your beloved is at the other end
it is just like the Foam
Remaining always in constant motion
covering the reality of the ocean
With eyes of yours you see
only the form, of no sense
Get the help of the heart( Love)
and look for the essence
The ocean is vast enough
Nobody knows its depth and end
start your journey now
as your beloved is at the other end
Forms and Essence
While the essence is important we should not be driven to the extreme of denying any significance to forms. MHI has told us to uphold our traditions. They provide continuity, stability and identity and I think it is important that we strike a balance. We should understand the inner significance of them. In his recent interview, MHI discussed this as following.
RM: But are there, sort of presumably, rituals and practices that go with it? Are you in that sense a practicing Muslim or is this a more philosophical framework?
AK: It is both. It is both.
RM: So how significant are the ritualistic practices that are involved?
AK: I think you have to be clear in both. It is as I said, you live the faith. It's not that if you are in a meeting on a given issue, that you forget that behind these decisions you are taking are the ethical principles of your faith. And they have to be there all the time. Whatever you do.
http://www.ismaili.net/timeline/2004/20 ... rview.html
Extending this to our discussions, we should be asking ourselves. What is our intention in these discussions. Are we promoting knowledge and understanding or are there other motives?
RM: But are there, sort of presumably, rituals and practices that go with it? Are you in that sense a practicing Muslim or is this a more philosophical framework?
AK: It is both. It is both.
RM: So how significant are the ritualistic practices that are involved?
AK: I think you have to be clear in both. It is as I said, you live the faith. It's not that if you are in a meeting on a given issue, that you forget that behind these decisions you are taking are the ethical principles of your faith. And they have to be there all the time. Whatever you do.
http://www.ismaili.net/timeline/2004/20 ... rview.html
Extending this to our discussions, we should be asking ourselves. What is our intention in these discussions. Are we promoting knowledge and understanding or are there other motives?
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Ya Ali Madad KMaherAli,
As a ismaili we have to believe in Imam and Pir. Many ismailis think that by Pir it means those dais who were sent by Imam in India to convert hindus into ismailis were called as Pirs however it is wrong. Mowlana Hazir Imam is Pir as well as Imam as per will of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah. Pir is Spiritual Mother and Imam is Spiritual Father.
Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah sent His message to Doctor Pir Mohammad Hood bhoy in reply to his letter asking an interpretation of red and green colour of Ismaili Flag.
16TH OCTOBER, 1954
MY DEAR HOODBHOY,
IN REPLY TO YOUR LETTER OF 8TH OCTOBER, THE COLOURS OF OUR FAMILY ARE, AS YOU KINOW, RED AND GREEN, THE REASON BEING THAT WE REPRESENT BOTH THE (OFFICES OF) SHAH AND THE PEER.
THE SHAH WAS HUSSEIN, THE PEER WAS HASAN. HASAN HAD THE PEER'S COLOUR OF GREEN, BUT HUSSEIN'S MARTYRDOM WAS SO ENORMOUS IN EVENTS AND WAS SO OPPOSED TO EVEN THE SMALLEST LAWS OF WAR THAT THE COLOUR OF HIS HOLY BLOOD, NAMELY RED, WAS ACCEPTED WITH THE GREEN OF THE PROPHET'S FLAG AS A SOUVENIR AND REMEMBRANCE OF THAT TERRIBLE DAY
To read more about it click on link below
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/myflag/16appendixc.html
Pir is what we call in Arabic Imam Mustwada
"It is He Who produced (ansha'a) you from one living soul, and then (there is) a lodging place (mustaqar), and then a repository (mustawda). Indeed, We made plain the signs for a people who understand" (6:98)
The names of all ismaili Pirs are in old dua whose English translation is available on ismaili.net
Also in a Farman Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah told that Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] appointed Hazrat Hassan as Pir and Mowla Ali appointed Imam Hussain as Imam.
The Farman is in Gujrati book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.
As a ismaili we have to believe in Imam and Pir. Many ismailis think that by Pir it means those dais who were sent by Imam in India to convert hindus into ismailis were called as Pirs however it is wrong. Mowlana Hazir Imam is Pir as well as Imam as per will of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah. Pir is Spiritual Mother and Imam is Spiritual Father.
Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah sent His message to Doctor Pir Mohammad Hood bhoy in reply to his letter asking an interpretation of red and green colour of Ismaili Flag.
16TH OCTOBER, 1954
MY DEAR HOODBHOY,
IN REPLY TO YOUR LETTER OF 8TH OCTOBER, THE COLOURS OF OUR FAMILY ARE, AS YOU KINOW, RED AND GREEN, THE REASON BEING THAT WE REPRESENT BOTH THE (OFFICES OF) SHAH AND THE PEER.
THE SHAH WAS HUSSEIN, THE PEER WAS HASAN. HASAN HAD THE PEER'S COLOUR OF GREEN, BUT HUSSEIN'S MARTYRDOM WAS SO ENORMOUS IN EVENTS AND WAS SO OPPOSED TO EVEN THE SMALLEST LAWS OF WAR THAT THE COLOUR OF HIS HOLY BLOOD, NAMELY RED, WAS ACCEPTED WITH THE GREEN OF THE PROPHET'S FLAG AS A SOUVENIR AND REMEMBRANCE OF THAT TERRIBLE DAY
To read more about it click on link below
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/myflag/16appendixc.html
Pir is what we call in Arabic Imam Mustwada
"It is He Who produced (ansha'a) you from one living soul, and then (there is) a lodging place (mustaqar), and then a repository (mustawda). Indeed, We made plain the signs for a people who understand" (6:98)
The names of all ismaili Pirs are in old dua whose English translation is available on ismaili.net
Also in a Farman Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah told that Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] appointed Hazrat Hassan as Pir and Mowla Ali appointed Imam Hussain as Imam.
The Farman is in Gujrati book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
In Olden times Ismailis used to recite dua infront of Photo of Hazir Imam, although we do not do it any more but that not means in any way that this practise was wrong.
Hazrat Mohammad [PBUH] said,"To look at the face of Ali is worship."
It is in Bhagavad Gita
"Meray priya Sakha tum meray jis roop ko is waqt dekh rahey ho ussey dekh pana bohot durlabh hai yehan tak k devtaa bhi is ati sundar roop ko dekhnay ki taak ma rehtey hain."
Priya Sakha means dear friend
Ati Sundar means most beautiful
Hazrat Mohammad [PBUH] said,"To look at the face of Ali is worship."
It is in Bhagavad Gita
"Meray priya Sakha tum meray jis roop ko is waqt dekh rahey ho ussey dekh pana bohot durlabh hai yehan tak k devtaa bhi is ati sundar roop ko dekhnay ki taak ma rehtey hain."
Priya Sakha means dear friend
Ati Sundar means most beautiful
YAM Munir,star_munir wrote: Also in a Farman Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah told that Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] appointed Hazrat Hassan as Pir and Mowla Ali appointed Imam Hussain as Imam.
The Farman is in Gujrati book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.
Thank you for the information. This clarifies an ambiguity about whether Hazarat Ali was the second Pir or not. There are some scholars who think that Hazarat Ali was the second Pir after Prophet Muhammad. From the above Firman, obviously he was not.
I was not sure about the source of the information on Myflag. Thank you for sharing this info. That in itself speaks volumes about the importance of Piratan!
Re: Forms and Essence
Kmaherali, I agree with you on this issue .Let me clarify my understanding about 'Forms' and 'essence/inner meanings'.kmaherali wrote:While the essence is important we should not be driven to the extreme of denying any significance to forms.
1.Without doubt, one has to keep balance between ' Forms' and 'essence'. Religion as a whole is both.
2.Even when performing a specific ritual, one should look through its inner meaning, and only then full benefits of the ritual can be realized.
3. The origin of almost all rituals was 'Love' and ' Devotion' of Him. But for the majority of the people, with the passage of time, those elements disappeared gradually and all remained were rituals.
4. To maintain stability and harmonious relationship within social structure, many forms have their own importance.
5.Every form has its inner meaning but not every meaning has its own form.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
I am sorry. I have been busy for last few weeks and it is going to be that way for next few months to come. There are some things that I am troubled by the direction this forum (thread) has taken and it has not been any constructive. And also to give you time to get your thoughts together.star_munir wrote:So unalhaq no reply from you so do you agree with this now or not??
I have a friend who is not Khoja Ismaili but yet learns Ginan.
What is pluralism according to you??
I would like to set a few things clear before I answer some of the points that have been raised since my last post. It seems to me is that you and few others don't check facts and are solely deepened on KIM and state them out of context; where a Farman had been made for a cretin particular jamet(s) or time or region or situation. Also to add to this KIM is not available (pulled out) for reasons that ITRAB can't even start to explain but say "It was done upon The Imams' wishes."
On Feb 19th's post I had posted that "And the present Imam is tirelessly working on mainstreaming the jamets. Here are a few examples:"
You had decided with out checking post your comments regarding those examples and the classic one was for the Jamet Khana Constructions are facing Mecca. Well my friend the "IMARA" committee has written guidelines from The Imam which includes the requirements for the Prayer-Halls in JKs to face Mecca. You need to check facts first before you go on commenting.
Also did you know that Ginans in JK can only be sung (recited) have to be the pre-approved ones from ITRAB! Yes there is a direction change there.
I have not said that I am against the Ginans. It is one thing when someone wants to learn something and another to tell (force and/or grab one by arm) to attend such classes or (I think its called) "Ginan-e-MAHAFIL"star_munir wrote:So unalhaq no reply from you so do you agree with this now or not??
I have a friend who is not Khoja Ismaili but yet learns Ginan.
What is pluralism according to you??
You need to ask ITRAB the lecture was taped and all taped lectures are sent to ITRAB. I think it will be far and balance as long as they don't edit/omit out as they do to the Farmans (you'll have to do some research before you ask me when or where the Farmans were edited, I have both audio and what is being red in JK on many Farmans).star_munir wrote:I would like to know what he said in his lecture in chicago Dec 2004.
If you were around and if you had heard me about Akbar Ali in early/mid 70s you would have said the same thing why I was saying about Akbar Ali? Keeping up with this theme... You also asked about Abu Ali "How can you say that he preaches antipluralism. He has praised many times non Khoja ismailis also. "star_munir wrote:Now lets come to other points. You wrote recommending you to hear waez of Abu Ali is like for you to recommend me to read articles of Akber Ali MeherAli. Why? I would like to know why you wrote like this as Akbar Ali was former ismaili and enemy of ismailism where as Abu Ali is senior ismaili missionary so dont you think foolishness in comparing these two.
Are you sure you would like to start opening his (AbuAli's) past?
You know what you are right the outside façade has to be with the building codes of the town where JK is constructed. However, if you take a tour of the new jks (it is open to anyone during non-prayer times) you will see that once inside the building the Prayer Halls are turned in the direction to MACCA! Research my friend research.star_munir wrote: I dont know about willowdale JK but this is what I read from an anti ismaili website [This website is updated from time to time so there is not point that the information is of past]
Since Allah is every where, Agakhani Ismailis feel themselves totally comfortable reciting his/her Holy Du'a, facing any direction or even with their backs to the Ka'bah. Some of the recently constructed multi-million dollar Jamatkhanas in North America are so built that the main congregation has their backs facing Mecca .
I am planing to update this post for next few hrs, just have to eat and stuff like that just hang in there.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Ya Ali Madad,
As you wrote :"It seems to me is that you and few others don't check facts and are solely deepened on KIM and state them out of context"
How can you wrote like that. If I ask reference of something which I not know it not means that I dont check facts and also Farman which I posted in my last post was not from KIM and I have posted nothing which I think is out of context. If it is then kindly tell.
KIM and Noorum Mubin and many other books are not easily available but from some JK libraries you can get that. And also there is not any farman not to read or recite the Farmans of KIM so if KIM is not avialable in ITRAB it not means in any way that Farmans in it are invalid now. The Farmans in KIM is till now recited in JK. As you wrote that did you know that Ginans in JK can only be sung (recited) have to be the pre-approved ones from ITRAB ? I know that but I also know that ITRAB has not sole authority in matter of Religion and is not in any way greater then those who have composed the Holy Ginans.
Your comment was:Well my friend the "IMARA" committee has written guidelines from The Imam which includes the requirements for the Prayer-Halls in JKs to face Mecca. You need to check facts first before you go on commenting.
Thanks for informing. I didn't knew that before. I had never heard about that before. I didn't had any reference to what you posted therefore I posted what I had read. I would like to know more about it if you have time or info on it that in which country/ city these JK are going to be built.
Also I would like to know if someboady has forced you or some one is forcing any one to learn Ginans or attend Ginan classes?
I know about changings made in Ginan and Farman and I would like you to write in your own words what do you felt wrong in that waez or what were its key points if you have enough time so every one can read and discuss on it.
There is a detail article on Alwaez Abu Ali on ismaili.net under topic of ismaili heros.
As you wrote :"It seems to me is that you and few others don't check facts and are solely deepened on KIM and state them out of context"
How can you wrote like that. If I ask reference of something which I not know it not means that I dont check facts and also Farman which I posted in my last post was not from KIM and I have posted nothing which I think is out of context. If it is then kindly tell.
KIM and Noorum Mubin and many other books are not easily available but from some JK libraries you can get that. And also there is not any farman not to read or recite the Farmans of KIM so if KIM is not avialable in ITRAB it not means in any way that Farmans in it are invalid now. The Farmans in KIM is till now recited in JK. As you wrote that did you know that Ginans in JK can only be sung (recited) have to be the pre-approved ones from ITRAB ? I know that but I also know that ITRAB has not sole authority in matter of Religion and is not in any way greater then those who have composed the Holy Ginans.
Your comment was:Well my friend the "IMARA" committee has written guidelines from The Imam which includes the requirements for the Prayer-Halls in JKs to face Mecca. You need to check facts first before you go on commenting.
Thanks for informing. I didn't knew that before. I had never heard about that before. I didn't had any reference to what you posted therefore I posted what I had read. I would like to know more about it if you have time or info on it that in which country/ city these JK are going to be built.
Also I would like to know if someboady has forced you or some one is forcing any one to learn Ginans or attend Ginan classes?
I know about changings made in Ginan and Farman and I would like you to write in your own words what do you felt wrong in that waez or what were its key points if you have enough time so every one can read and discuss on it.
There is a detail article on Alwaez Abu Ali on ismaili.net under topic of ismaili heros.
I have a serious question, please do not laugh!
Half of the Masjid in North America are tunring toward North-East and half of them are built to turn toward South East.
Where is Mecca from North America. Well depends if you look at a flat map of the world of a round Globe [that is the shortest direction plane would take]
So if Imaara is turning our Jamatkhanas toward Mecca, which Mecca and which direction?.. Are they turning it toward North West like half of the Masjid... I hope yes, that would be a good direction for Aiglemont instead of South Africa.... which they may be doing as some of them think the world is still flat 'It happened to mine when my plastic world globe had a flat and lost all the air..
And you can even have more fun with a third possibility: What is the direction of a line from Vancouver Canada to Makkah that goes straight through the earth (not on the surface)
Inj the same topic, I always laugh loud when they anounce in JK that Idd will be celebrated at the same day as other Muslims..
In MOntreal there are 3 groups of Muslims, those who go with Idd in Pakistan, those who go with Idd in Saudi Arabia and the more intelligent who calculate which day it would be in reality in MOntreal even if there are clouds in the sky.. and believe me, if we were to wait to see the moon in MOntreal, sometimes it would take many many days;-)
Nagib
Suggested reading:
http://moonsighting.com/faq_qd.html
http://patriot.net/~abdali/ftp/qibla.pdf
Half of the Masjid in North America are tunring toward North-East and half of them are built to turn toward South East.
Where is Mecca from North America. Well depends if you look at a flat map of the world of a round Globe [that is the shortest direction plane would take]
So if Imaara is turning our Jamatkhanas toward Mecca, which Mecca and which direction?.. Are they turning it toward North West like half of the Masjid... I hope yes, that would be a good direction for Aiglemont instead of South Africa.... which they may be doing as some of them think the world is still flat 'It happened to mine when my plastic world globe had a flat and lost all the air..
And you can even have more fun with a third possibility: What is the direction of a line from Vancouver Canada to Makkah that goes straight through the earth (not on the surface)
Inj the same topic, I always laugh loud when they anounce in JK that Idd will be celebrated at the same day as other Muslims..
In MOntreal there are 3 groups of Muslims, those who go with Idd in Pakistan, those who go with Idd in Saudi Arabia and the more intelligent who calculate which day it would be in reality in MOntreal even if there are clouds in the sky.. and believe me, if we were to wait to see the moon in MOntreal, sometimes it would take many many days;-)
Nagib
Suggested reading:
http://moonsighting.com/faq_qd.html
http://patriot.net/~abdali/ftp/qibla.pdf