Français  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - GURNARTHEE BHULAA TAASU(N) VAAD NA KEEJEJEE
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

GURNARTHEE BHULAA TAASU(N) VAAD NA KEEJEJEE

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Ginans
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
faisall667



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:47 pm    Post subject: GURNARTHEE BHULAA TAASU(N) VAAD NA KEEJEJEE Reply with quote

ejee chaalees laakh dait kaalee(n)gaanaa chelaajee

neet neet kalaa jagaayejee...................................4

There are forty lakh(four million) disciples of the evil demon. They assert their strength every day.

ejee velu mataree dait an upaavshejee

ananaa parab chalaavshejee..................................5

By reciting a word over a type of creeper, the evil demon will create food. He will operate free supply lines of this food.(He will distribute this food in an abundant manner)

ejee paannee mataree ne dait ghrat upaavshejee

ghrat naa parab chalaavshejee................................6

By reciting a word over water the evil demon will create ghee. He will operate free supply lines of this ghee. (He will make this ghee available abundantly).

ejee gaaro matareene dait golla upaavshejee

tyaa(n) gollanaa parab chalaavshejee.........................7

By reciting a word over mud the evil demon will create molasses. There he will distribute this molasses in an abundunt manner.

ejee paan mataree ne dait popatt paddhaavshejee

tene kaalee(n)gaanu(n) naam bhannaavshejee...................8

By reciting a word over a type of leaf the evil demon will cause it to recite like a parrot. He will teach it the name(message) of the devil.

[phenomena of records-pop music]

ejee kaatthnaa ghoddaane dait khaann khavraavshejee

evaa chen chalaavshejee......................................9

The evil demon will feed the beasts(horses) of the neighbourhood with sugar. Such will be the wonders performed by him.

ejee muaa maannas dait kaalee(n)go jeevaaddshejee

te kal maa(n)he maai baap dekhaaddshejee....................10

The evil demon will bring to life dead men. In this age he will reveal the mother and father.

ejee meghaa ddamar dait chhatr ddhallaayshejee

ttaaddhaa ttaddhaa vaahaa varsaavshejee.....................11

The evil demon will create shelters from rain and thunderstorms. He will feel the atmosphere with cold air.

ejee traa(m)beeye rottee dait kaalee(n)go vechaavshejee

sonaa more saaheb raajo karshejee...........................12

The evil demon will trade food for copper. My kingly Lord will convert it into a gold coin.

ejee veekhaddee vellaa maa(n)he deel tthor na raheshejee

saamee raajo raakhshe tenee raheshejee......................13

In this difficult period the hearts will not remain steady. Only the ones under the protection of the Lord will remain steady.

ejee geenaan mahaaras peer shamsh boleeyaa jee

evaa evaa chen chalaavshejee................................14

This hymn which is has great nector(water of life) is recited by Peer Shams. Such will be the wonders and plays performed by the evil demons(to lure you away from the Path).


Is the main point that the devil is going to come act all nice, will actually be taking us off our path to salvation?
All that above stuff, is it supposed to be literal because it is a bit wierd sounding. Who are the forces of the deamon or the devil?



Faisal
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM,

The "daint" - demon in this case is the power of science and technology to create an illusion of ultimate satisfaction in materialism and consumerism.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
faisall667



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, I don't understand how can that be bad when Hazir Imam tells us to pursue careers in sciene (ex. medicine)?


Faisal
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

faisall667 wrote:
But, I don't understand how can that be bad when Hazir Imam tells us to pursue careers in sciene (ex. medicine)?


Faisal
A good question! It depends on how scientific knowledge is used. It can be used to control, manipulate, and dominate with a view to gain power and excessive wealth or it can be used to create, improve and understand Allah's creation. In the former case it tends towards the demon ("daint") , whereas in the later case it leads to creativity, peace and enlightenment.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
faisall667



Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you take the ginan literally it sounds like something the Christians believe in--antichrist. The antichrist is supposed to be real nice at first, and people start liking him, and this the way the antichrist takes the believers off the "right path"

Faisal
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have heard the waez of Abu Ali missionary in this regard. May you get it from your Jamat Khana Library. Its topic is Daet Kalingo and there are many other waezes with similar topics .
According to him Daet Kalingo would be a person who will be king and will spread comunism. [It will not be itself communism or science]
At that time there would be very much advancement in fields of Science and technology . At that time china would be centre of Science. Paper speaking like parrot radio or invention like that yet non living being but speak. Similarly Pavan rathor horse flying in air means aeroplane as there were no aeroplanes or radio or things similar at that time these types of words are used for them and many things are yet not invented now like he will make ghee artificialy
artificial ghee e.g maragarine is artificial ghee so he will make similar things like brown sugar from mud etc.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever I mentioned in my lat post were the point of views of Alwaez Abu Ali. Personally I think that there are some esoteric meanings some exoteric meanings. I dont think its proper to term the who event as esoteric and deny its literal meaning by terming daet to be the communism,Sceince,materialsim etc. Daet will surely be a person like there were demons in previos ages. If the whole incidence would be esoteric than it would be like simple story manner but if one reads it becomes obvious thatdefinately there are literal meanings or exoteric too otherwise the number of people in armies and location and places etc would not be mentioned.
I not meant that every verse has literal meaning. There are esotric meanings behind many words and verses but literal meanings have importance too.
Ismailism is though esoteric faith but that not means literal meanings of Farman and Ginans have no importance.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 3:21 am    Post subject: Demon everpresent - not in future. Reply with quote

ejee aradh aasann dait puraveene betthaajee
sheshttee saghallee namaavejee...............................3

The devil is established being seated in half a posture(otherside of the throne), and forces the entire creation to bow(to him).

The above verse of the same Ginan says that the "dait" is seated, i.e. he is not going to appear in future. The phenomena of illusion is continuous and is always a problem. It is through overcoming these forces of illusion that we become stronger in our faith. True its manifestation or expression will keep changing as alluded by the number of wonders that will take place as mentioned in the Ginan.

This Ginan does not mention anything about communism nor China as has been alluded by some. The number 40 lakhs is just symbolic of the great numbers under the influence of maya.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

467. From China will come the Kalingo
He will come to fight in Jampudip

469. By concentration, he will go to the skies
He will feed iron horses with sugar


470. He will show the deceased mothers and fathers
He will reverse the current of the river


471. He will make mountains of food move forward
He will change water into butter


472. The Kalingo will accomplish such miracles
And there, the whole world will be lost


474. When the demon Kalingo will make such trouble
The Lord Narayanr will reveal Himself certainly

507. Then they will come to Jampudip
The meeting (of the armies) will take place close to Saraswati (89)


508. Then a clamour will rise to the sky
(The armies) will meet close to the river Sarasw

513. When The Lord Ali, riding on His Dul Dul,(91)will fight against the satan,
The head of the devil will fall down


514. Then with the forkedsword in His hands
Ali will fight the satan and his army


515. Then the trident will turn round the 14th night
And the head of the demon will fall.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reference. Where are they from?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Ginan Budh Avtar
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:27 am    Post subject: Budh Avatar and Kalingo Reply with quote

Verse 464 reads

464. Tchinab Nagri , in the East
There lives the famous Kalingo

Which implies that the Kalingo lived at the time of Pir Sadardeen, i.e., he/she will not only appear in future. He always exists and will always exist and as I mentioned in my previous post, he/she is the power of illusion created by materialism and science if applied incorrectly for greed, power and domination. China is mentioned because it was the most advanced country materially and technologically at that time.

The verses 465/466 refer to the strength of maya - illusion ( as at present).

465. This Dayt Kalingo will be extremely strong
His army will be unlimited

466. His army will be limitless
His soldiers will be powerful
Verse 476 states

467. From China will come the Kalingo
He will come to fight in Jampudip

Here China is a symbol of materialism and technological progress. The China of today is the West and it is from the West that the forces of illusion are generated through materialism and science ( applied for wrong purpose).

507. Then they will come to Jampudip
The meeting (of the armies) will take place close to Saraswati

Saraswati is symbolic of sukhmana nadi (astral nerve) which plays an important role in spiritual enlightenment in conjunction with the Nadis Ingla and Pinglaa. Refer to Ginan “Sakhi Mahap Keri Vaat koik jaanne” . Jampudeep is symbolic of the soul (eternal home). Refer to 'Anant Akhaado"

515. Then the trident will turn round the 14th night
And the head of the demon will fall.

The 14th night is the night of full moon and is therefore symbolic of spiritual enlightenment. The whole existence becomes bright after the enlightenment. The head of the demon will fall means that he will be rendered powerless because through enlightenment the lower self which is vulnerable to illusion, will be annihilated and hence the maya will return because there is nothing to attack!

I hope that clarifies.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:55 am    Post subject: Kalingo - Quranic Perspective Reply with quote

To illustrate the strength of pluralism, the following is an ayat from the Quran which resonates the idea of the kalingo supplying abundant material useless items.

Say: "Not equal are things that are bad and things that are good, even though the abundance of the bad may dazzle thee; so fear Allah, O ye that understand; that (so) ye may prosper."

-Qur'an, Al-Ma'idah, Surah 5:100
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi you have explained very well but are you hundred percent sure that it is totally esoteric and has nothing to do with literal meanings. Is there any Farman in which Imam mention this event and declared it as esoteric or its your opinion or interpretation. I have heard waez of AbuAli and according to him it is not totally esoteric. I shall post important points from his waez so discussion can be made on it.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM,

No one can claim absolute authority on the interpretation of Ginans except MHI. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has indicated on many an occasion that Ginans can have multiple meanings. The explanation that I have given is my interpretation based on my knowledge of other Ginans and my insights about enlightenment and that is the only way that it makes sense to me. Others may interprete it differently.

I cannot fathom how a literal interpretation can be possible in this situation. I would like to know more about it.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Abu Ali missionary Daet will become powerful due to science and will perform miracles.There would be 76 lakh people in his army.In future china will become center of science and education.Ever country will fear from china including U.S.A. China will progress and and will become much advanced. Daet will be the ruler of china. He will make ghee from water or he will make artificial ghee.He will make brown sugar from mud and will make a paper which can speak like a parrot.There will be war betwenn daet and ImamThere will be lot of noise and announcement and declaration of war will be made in three worlds [sky,earth,pataal]
At that time all muslims will believe Imam as their Imam and khalifa.There would be darkness in world. Very few people will be momins other will be kafirs.Before this great war there will bne many other wars in this world.
According to Abu Ali missionary he think that in future muslims and communist will be united and they togethrt will fight against christians and jewsIn starting chistians and jews will win but later they will be defeated.
Than there will be only 2 powers in this world Islam and communism.
Than Imam will become leader of all muslims. It is in ginans that there will be pawan rath ghoray i.e aeroplane and Imam will have 36 kinds of weapons.
Angels and spirits will praise Imam. They will also fight battle.Detail is in Annant Akhado about this.In battle of Badar also there were 313 momins but God sent 3000 angels to help muslims.The momins who are not ismailis saint and good people of other religion like hinduism,christanity will realize that Imam is naklank avtaar and there would be raaj of momins.This would be like world war.Its in ginan that Imam will walk for 6 lakh miles in one day.Daet will make arguments to his wife Surja Rani. Abu Ali said that Surja rani in ginan means true momins he will say 75% of world is in my control.Momins will say if you want salvation you have to worship lord and you are doing war with lord?Daet will say I can bring back life to one who is dead I have unlimmited army.Rani will say although you have unlimmited army but you will be defeated.
Most of the people in daet's army will die due to natural disasters like flood,earthquake,storm etc.
In 1921 president of Russia said in his speech that within 20 years there will be no religion in Russia such a plan was made by him but inspite of his best efforts he was not succesful in doing so.In 1969 a report was published about religion in Russia and there were many muslims,christians etc.There are many ismailis in Russia.In that report in chapter of Islam,ismailism is also mention and about Aga Khan, dasond etc is written in this report. China will not make a make mistake like that of Russia. Daet will ask Surja Rani you live in my home,eat my food and than praises your Imam.It means he will ask momins that you live in communist country in my country and are following religion.
Rani will reply listen I am telling you this in every joog but you have always cheated. After Karta,Treta and Duapar jug this is last Kaljug in this infidels and enemy of religion will be killed.
Daet will than say Rani what are you saying you live in my home and praises your Imam why??
Rani will say Believe me Lord will ask for your every action.
Than there will be war.Ishwar and Bramha [Shah Pir ,Imam and Pir of that time] will come in China and Imam will win the battle and than there will be Ratan jug and momins will be happy and will enjoy
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Munir wrote:
[According to Abu Ali missionary Daet will become powerful due to science and will perform miracles.There would be 76 lakh people in his army.In future china will become center of science and education.Ever country will fear from china including U.S.A. China will progress and and will become much advanced. Daet will be the ruler of china. He will make ghee from water or he will make artificial ghee.He will make brown sugar from mud and will make a paper which can speak like a parrot.There will be war betwenn daet and ImamThere will be lot of noise and announcement and declaration of war will be made in three worlds [sky,earth,pataal] ]

Both the ginans that we have referred to in this discussion state that the Kalingo is present now. Yes science and technology evolves and accordingly the kalingo will express himself differently in light of prevailing science. Science and technology are not harmful by themselves - it is only their abuse which generates the illusion that the human mind creates and controls everything. As I mentioned earlier, China was the scientific and technological force at that time and the wonders that have been alluded to in the Ginans have already come to pass.

In one of the TV documentaries produced by the PBS entitled "Legacy" by Michael Wood, there is an illustration of how civilizations have risen and fallen throughout history. The most important factor underlying the rise of civilizations is the implementation of ethics both in private lives of the citizens and the public institutions. Contrarily the most important factor in their downfall has been the lose of ethics and identity as mentioned by MHI in the statement "A society without a strong sense of its own identity has time and again in human history proved to be well on the way to decay". [Speech 6 Feb. 1970]

As we reflect upon the present circumstances, it could well be the case that the western civilization could be declining and that another one could emerge elsewhere where a strong sense of identity and ethics are established. One may derive some hint by MHI's statement: "There are powerful reasons that we cannot overlook, for which the West and the Muslim world must seek a better mutual understanding. "[Brown Univ. 1996] Yet any power that may emerge would still be regarded as China according to my interpretation of the Ginan.

Munir wrote:
[At that time all muslims will believe Imam as their Imam and khalifa.There would be darkness in world. Very few people will be momins other will be kafirs.Before this great war there will bne many other wars in this world.
According to Abu Ali missionary he think that in future muslims and communist will be united and they togethrt will fight against christians and jewsIn starting chistians and jews will win but later they will be defeated.
Than there will be only 2 powers in this world Islam and communism.]

As we all know by now, communism is dead. MHI talks about a broader vision of Islam encompassing all humanity. So the scenario is unlikely.

Munir wrote:
[Than Imam will become leader of all muslims. It is in ginans that there will be pawan rath ghoray i.e aeroplane and Imam will have 36 kinds of weapons...The momins who are not ismailis saint and good people of other religion like hinduism,christanity will realize that Imam is naklank avtaar and there would be raaj of momins.]

That is a possibility that I have alluded to in other forums in light of MHI's special position and credibility within the Muslim Umma and the world at large. In my opinion, a war will not be necessary as that can happen through his institutional framework and experience. Yes in my opinion many non Ismailis will recognise MHI by shear necessity if not out of understanding.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot to mention Abu Ali in his waez said that whatever he is saying may not exactly be correct, it his only his point of view on this Ginan.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:39 am    Post subject: Kalingo in terms of Qibla Reply with quote

Mowlana Rumi expresses the tension between God on the one hand and the 'Kalingo'(desires of the illusion) on the other in the following verse.

"As God has made the Qibla* manifest, abandon your search. Hark, turn away from all futile search, now that the House has come to view. If you forget this Qibla for one moment, you will be overcome by the Qibla of desires."

*Qibla: The point toward which Muslims turn to pray, especially the Ka’ba, or House of God, at Mecca.


-Rumi, “Mathnawi,” 6:2626-28
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Abu Ali missionary Daet is exactly the same which is mention as Dajjal in Hadiths

According to Hadiths:

1 Dajjal would be a person/ a man.

2 Dajjal will claim Divinity

3 He will shower rains.

4 He will make dead alive.

5 He will have mountains of breads [roti],honey etc

6 He will capture the world

7 On his head there will be word written "Kafir" He will not be able to hide that or rub that

8 Before Qayamat there will come 30 demons out of which the wost one will come in end and thats dajjal.

9 Dajjal is blind from left eye. Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] said to muslims to be careful he will calim to be God but your God is not blind.

10 Dajjal is fat and has curly hairs,eye like grape.

11 Dajjal is still alive but will appear at the end time of this world.

12 There are many hadiths in which Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] told that his face would be some what similar with that of AbdulAza bin Qatan.

13 The word kafir on his head every one will be able to read the one who know reading as well the one who don't

14 One Sahabi Tamim claimed to have watched Dajjal and Ibne Syad said he is aware of date of birth,place of birth and parents of Dajjal.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21491

PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:28 am    Post subject: Hadiths Reply with quote

Hadiths are hadiths! I would not rely upon their authority unless backed by a statement of the Pir. As Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has stated in his memoirs creation is perpetual and there cannot be an end and hence the so called Dajjal is non sense in my opinion.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also not mean that Hadiths are hundred percent authentic. Infact many changes were made and I myself posted an article in past about wrong hadiths but it is not only with hadiths but changes were made in Bhagavad Gita and other previous books and scriptures too.But we quote vesres when we think is similar to the topic of discussion.
We can not follow hadiths which are against the Farmans,Ginan and Quran but we may follow which are in accordance with Ginans,Farmans and Quran.
I posted these hadiths as concept of dajjal is quiet similar to that of Daet and according to Abu Ali missionar Dajjal and Daet are same.
You may find some points similar to that in Ginan while some are similar like what is in Ginan and some are different like the face ofdeat is similar to that of Abdul Aza bin Qatan. Obviously the time when Ginans were made no one knew who was Abdul Aza bin Qatan or how is his look.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Ginans All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400