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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - suicide
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suicide

 
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nargisk3



Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Posts: 49
Location: San Antonio, TX

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:48 am    Post subject: suicide Reply with quote

Hi ya'll. I'm not really sure what's going on or why this is happening, but in the United States, in the past week, we've had 3 Ismailies, all from different areas commit suicide. I know this is a touchy subject, but I really think that as a Jamat, this issue needs to be addressed. Anyways, I don't really have a question- I just wanted to make this comment, and wanted ya'lls opinion on it.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10788

PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:01 am    Post subject: Suicides Reply with quote

This is a serious issue. I am not sure whether they are interrelated or whether they are independant. 3 in a jamat of 20,000 is statistically very significant. I am not sure how this compares with the national average. It clearly indicates that our Jamat is not insulated from the general problems of the society at large. The issue is what can we do to prevent this rehappening? What are the underlying issues that led to these? Can our institutions be supportive in this regard? Could the practice of our traditions and our unity help overcome these issues?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10788

PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The angry young man

When I teach anger management, I help young men recognize the transitory nature of all feelings, happy and angry and sad ones.

After motor vehicle accidents, suicide is the second leading cause of death for all people ages 15 to 24. Males are especially vulnerable.

A distraught client called me recently. Her 24-year old nephew hanged himself, the preferred method of male suicide in British Columbia.

There have been plenty of reports written recently on the phenomenon of young male suicide. After motor vehicle accidents, suicide is the second leading cause of death for all people ages 15 to 24. Young males in this age group are three times more likely than females to kill themselves.

These sobering stats have experts trying to figure out why. Depression plays a roll. But I think depression is only part of the problem.

According to the Harvard School of Public Health, impulsivity plays a part. Impulsivity is the hallmark of adolescence because the pre-frontal cortex, what we often call the seat of executive functioning, is not yet fully formed, and is further delayed in adolescent males.

The Harvard School of Public Health reported on a study done in Houston. In emergency wards, 153 survivors of near-lethal suicide attempts aged 13 to 34 were asked how long they’d thought about suicide before they acted on it. Almost a quarter reported five minutes. Nine out of 10 reported less than one day.

That same Harvard report examined why young people, mostly men, decided to kill themselves.


In both an Australian study and another in Texas some 60 per cent of those who tried to kill themselves reported serious interpersonal conflict or crises in the previous 24 hours.

I believe this is where we should spend a good chunk of our suicide prevention energy.

When a young man comes to me depressed and angry, I find that most of his difficult emotions involve conflict in relationships.

We need to teach young men inter-personal communication skills. Guys say their girlfriends are so much better with words than they are, they feel ill equipped to engage verbally, so they resort to fits of anger. Anger management is part of learning appropriate communication skills.

When I teach anger management, I help young men recognize the transitory nature of all feelings, happy and angry and sad ones. I get them to reflect on how often they choose to act out angry feelings as opposed to all the other feelings. Then we find examples in their lives when they were angry — and didn’t explode. Then I praise and positively reinforce behaviours that promote alternative outcomes. Then we brainstorm all manner of alternatives to acting on anger or frustration. Without alternatives, impulsivity kicks in and suicide, not on the table 10 minutes ago, becomes a viable option.

Teach these skills to your children. Start early. When a six year old is sad or angry, use that as an opportunity to get him talking about his feelings and help him process them. Then when he’s 14 and frustrated as all get out, he’ll use you as a sounding board, as opposed to taking drastic, and tragically, sometimes fatal action.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 3239

PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are 5 actions not forgiven according to my understanding and suicide, murder, abortion are amongst these 5. The only thing we know is Allah is Rahim Reheman and ultimately will forgive as his Mercy is great and He better knows of the circumstances leading people to these acts..
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fayaz006



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
There are 5 actions not forgiven according to my understanding and suicide, murder, abortion are amongst these 5. The only thing we know is Allah is Rahim Reheman and ultimately will forgive as his Mercy is great and He better knows of the circumstances leading people to these acts..


Admin i know the bases of why murder is not forgiven, but what is the bases for not forgiving suicide and abortion? I am asking the question from a theological point of view.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 3239

PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fayaz006 wrote:

Admin i know the bases of why murder is not forgiven, but what is the bases for not forgiving suicide and abortion? I am asking the question from a theological point of view.


There is a ginan detailing what actions are not forgivable, it cites 5 actions. I remember Par-Hathiyaa, Aap Hatiyaa and Baal-Hathiyaa. I can try to find that ginan later tonight....

I would think suicide is self-murder and abortion is also murder as Hazar Imam says that the mother is responsible for the kid from the moment of CONCEPTION. But God knows each people's intention and circumstances as I say, may he forgive all of them and all of us for whatever small and big sins imperfect humans living in an imperfect world are prone to make in the process of passing through this life and all the others.

It is sad that even in our community there are suicides and indeed it is difficult to identify a suicide candidate. I would think we have some level of support in the community, maybe it could be improved.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10788

PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
There is a ginan detailing what actions are not forgivable, it cites 5 actions. I remember Par-Hathiyaa, Aap Hatiyaa and Baal-Hathiyaa. I can try to find that ginan later tonight....

The following are the verses from Saloko Nano which allude to the five Hathyaas. The five Hathyaas mentioned are Par Ninda(slander), aall(false accusation), par gavan(illicit intercourse), aap hathyaa(suicide) and baall(abortion).

satgur kahere: karam to sarave utare
ane na utare par nee(n)daa ne aall
par gavan na utare
na utare aap hatyaa ne baall re.................39

The True Guide says: The entire burden of sins is reducible, except the sin of backbiting and false accusation, illicit(sexual) relationships and sin of suicide and killing of children (abortion).

satgur kahere: paa(n)ch hatyaa to paapnnee
jeen seer lakhee lelaatt aa-e
te neet utthee gatmaa(n)he jaae
to-e jeev amar na thaay re......................40

The True Guide says: The five killers(of the soul) are sinful. Upon whoever's head these are written, will receive kicks. Even if this person gets up everyday and goes to the gat(J.K.), his soul will not attain immortality.
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fayaz006



Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:
There is a ginan detailing what actions are not forgivable, it cites 5 actions. I remember Par-Hathiyaa, Aap Hatiyaa and Baal-Hathiyaa. I can try to find that ginan later tonight....

The following are the verses from Saloko Nano which allude to the five Hathyaas. The five Hathyaas mentioned are Par Ninda(slander), aall(false accusation), par gavan(illicit intercourse), aap hathyaa(suicide) and baall(abortion).

satgur kahere: karam to sarave utare
ane na utare par nee(n)daa ne aall
par gavan na utare
na utare aap hatyaa ne baall re.................39

The True Guide says: The entire burden of sins is reducible, except the sin of backbiting and false accusation, illicit(sexual) relationships and sin of suicide and killing of children (abortion).

satgur kahere: paa(n)ch hatyaa to paapnnee
jeen seer lakhee lelaatt aa-e
te neet utthee gatmaa(n)he jaae
to-e jeev amar na thaay re......................40

The True Guide says: The five killers(of the soul) are sinful. Upon whoever's head these are written, will receive kicks. Even if this person gets up everyday and goes to the gat(J.K.), his soul will not attain immortality.


Km and Admin, a couple of arguments from my end. Does killing a child refer to infanticide or would any abortion fall in to that category in your view? The reason being we have family planing services, which advise on when to start families. Not to mention abnormalities in the fetus and severe threat to the lives of some mothers during pregnancy.

The second question is about back biting. From the ginan, it seems that there is no forgiveness for it. However a lot of ismailis have engaged in it in the past. Therefore would we assume that there is no hope for us then, if we have engaged in back biting in the past?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10788

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fayaz006 wrote:
Km and Admin, a couple of arguments from my end. Does killing a child refer to infanticide or would any abortion fall in to that category in your view? The reason being we have family planing services, which advise on when to start families. Not to mention abnormalities in the fetus and severe threat to the lives of some mothers during pregnancy.?
This is not a black and white issue. There is an extended discussion at:
Abortion in Ismaili Religion
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2804&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30
fayaz006 wrote:

The second question is about back biting. From the ginan, it seems that there is no forgiveness for it. However a lot of ismailis have engaged in it in the past. Therefore would we assume that there is no hope for us then, if we have engaged in back biting in the past?

The basic idea is that if you have sinned against someone go and ask forgiveness from the person. If he/she forgives, Allah forgives. There has been discussion at:
NINDA
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=97&start=0
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10788

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are related threads at:

Suicide
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1278&start=0

Euthanasia
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=165&start=0
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 3239

PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please continue discussions of these subjects in the threads mentionned above

For suicide; http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1278&start=0
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