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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Farman on Homosexuality?
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Farman on Homosexuality?
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ForeverIsmaili



Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:48 pm    Post subject: Farman on Homosexuality? Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad and Peace onto everyone

I have a question about a Farman Imaam Aga Khan IV decreed. I read that he declared a farmad on homosexuality about 10 or so years ago. It was pretty positive in that He is attributed to say homosexuality is Halaal if it's in a monogamous relationship.

Does anyone recall reading about this? I can't even remember the website or anything.
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YaAliYaMowla



Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im sorry but whereever you read that is talking nonsense. While Hazir Imam has never explicitly mentioned homosexuality (there really isnt a need to..) in a farman, we know clearly from our history that it is haram. The story of Prophet Lut should give some insight.. It was the same Allah then, as it is today...

Hazir Imam has also given a speech in Karachi in the past about human relations and how things that have traditionally been wrong are being tolerated and then accepted and this should not happen. Homosexuality is implicit in this IMHO.

Hazir Imam in farmans has talked about the value system of the West and how it is significantly different from those traditionally to us, and we do not need to adopt all these values. Hazim Imam has talked about our own value system and how ours are universal. Again, homosexuality is implied in the west's value system and it being different from ours, anyone with knowledge of our culture and traditions knows this.

Our ginans clearly repeatedly indicate lust, in and of itself, is haram. Companionship can be gained in our own spirit of friendship and brotherhood. From a religious perspective, it is haram and there should be no doubt on this at all.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 3882

PostPosted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been through all of the available Farmans since 1957 and there is no such Farmans to my knowledge. The Imam has on the contrary made clear his views on social habits. there is an extensive discussion on this topic which you may find from the search button of the Forum section

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Sumi25



Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YaAliYaMowla wrote:

Hazir Imam has also given a speech in Karachi in the past about human relations and how things that have traditionally been wrong are being tolerated and then accepted and this should not happen. Homosexuality is implicit in this IMHO.

Hazir Imam in farmans has talked about the value system of the West and how it is significantly different from those traditionally to us, and we do not need to adopt all these values. Hazim Imam has talked about our own value system and how ours are universal. Again, homosexuality is implied in the west's value system and it being different from ours, anyone with knowledge of our culture and traditions knows this.

Our ginans clearly repeatedly indicate lust, in and of itself, is haram. Companionship can be gained in our own spirit of friendship and brotherhood. From a religious perspective, it is haram and there should be no doubt on this at all.


Yes, Hazir Imam never mentioned homosexuality in his farmans. So why do you automatically assume it's bad. Get over your own beliefs about it. You are obviously inserting your own preconceived notions about homosexuality. You say Hazir Imam is implying that it is wrong but you are looking at this situation through a close-minded veil.

Hazir Imam specifically mentions social ills in his farmans such as drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. Not once has he said anything against homosexuality. If it were such a great sin, wouldn't you think he would've advised against it by now?

Try looking at it with an open perspective without making lavish comments that hold no merit.
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YaAliYaMowla



Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hazir Imam has never given a farman with explicit mention of murder or rape either.. does that mean those things are ok? And before you start screaming "false analogy", understand the concept..

You saying that I am "inserting" my notions on the topic is no different from me saying that you are doing the same.. maybe you are gay.. for your own sake on the day of judgement, lets hope not.

Research the story of Prophet Lut, who was also one of OUR prophets. Most of the World is against homosexuality yet, because you seem to be from the West, you believe that the West has the right answer on these things.. You grew up brainwashed with their values and mentality, and anyone who does not agree is "close-minded". Think logically for a second, why is the vast majority of the world against homosexuality, and been that way for centuries upon centuries, are their reasons valid? Not doing this is what I would term "close-minded". Soon enough you people will be advocating pedophiles as well.. they're still people right?

EDIT: I have removed some insulting comments that I made and apologize for those comments. Upon reflection I realized that I let the previous response get to me more than it should have..
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1098

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sumi25 wrote:
YaAliYaMowla wrote:

Hazir Imam has also given a speech in Karachi in the past about human relations and how things that have traditionally been wrong are being tolerated and then accepted and this should not happen. Homosexuality is implicit in this IMHO.

Hazir Imam in farmans has talked about the value system of the West and how it is significantly different from those traditionally to us, and we do not need to adopt all these values. Hazim Imam has talked about our own value system and how ours are universal. Again, homosexuality is implied in the west's value system and it being different from ours, anyone with knowledge of our culture and traditions knows this.

Our ginans clearly repeatedly indicate lust, in and of itself, is haram. Companionship can be gained in our own spirit of friendship and brotherhood. From a religious perspective, it is haram and there should be no doubt on this at all.


Yes, Hazir Imam never mentioned homosexuality in his farmans. So why do you automatically assume it's bad. Get over your own beliefs about it. You are obviously inserting your own preconceived notions about homosexuality. You say Hazir Imam is implying that it is wrong but you are looking at this situation through a close-minded veil.

Hazir Imam specifically mentions social ills in his farmans such as drinking, smoking, drugs, etc. Not once has he said anything against homosexuality. If it were such a great sin, wouldn't you think he would've advised against it by now?

Try looking at it with an open perspective without making lavish comments that hold no merit.


Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams
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Sumi25



Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams


Hmm the Qu'ran also states that we shouldn't befriend Christians or Jews and that men are greater than women.. If you take the literal meaning of the Qu'ran, or any religious book for that matter, you would see that there are contradictions all over the place. That's why we have a living Imam for interpretation and guidance.

I have come to know a few homosexuals and they are the nicest of people. Do you honestly think they are sinning? Is being born a certain way a sin? Did God create human beings with sin already manufactured into them from birth, a sin they can never escape? That's like saying being black is a sin.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1098

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sumi25 wrote:
ShamsB wrote:

Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams


Hmm the Qu'ran also states that we shouldn't befriend Christians or Jews and that men are greater than women.. If you take the literal meaning of the Qu'ran, or any religious book for that matter, you would see that there are contradictions all over the place. That's why we have a living Imam for interpretation and guidance.

I have come to know a few homosexuals and they are the nicest of people. Do you honestly think they are sinning? Is being born a certain way a sin? Did God create human beings with sin already manufactured into them from birth, a sin they can never escape? That's like saying being black is a sin.


See we have a living Imam that interprets the Quran for us...
in his farmans we have been told to build bridges with people of other faiths..so that supercedes the Quran..however no farman overriding the Quran's direction on homosexual sex.

I know some very nice people that drink and smoke..are they not sinning?
i know some very nice jews that serve in the IDF that kills the palestinians? are they not sinning?
I know some very nice ismailies that gamble...hmm..they must not be sinning..as per your logic...

it isn't about being born with sin - we all are surrounded by temptations...and we have to restrain one's self.
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Sumi25



Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
Sumi25 wrote:
ShamsB wrote:

Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams


Hmm the Qu'ran also states that we shouldn't befriend Christians or Jews and that men are greater than women.. If you take the literal meaning of the Qu'ran, or any religious book for that matter, you would see that there are contradictions all over the place. That's why we have a living Imam for interpretation and guidance.

I have come to know a few homosexuals and they are the nicest of people. Do you honestly think they are sinning? Is being born a certain way a sin? Did God create human beings with sin already manufactured into them from birth, a sin they can never escape? That's like saying being black is a sin.


See we have a living Imam that interprets the Quran for us...
in his farmans we have been told to build bridges with people of other faiths..so that supercedes the Quran..however no farman overriding the Quran's direction on homosexual sex.

I know some very nice people that drink and smoke..are they not sinning?
i know some very nice jews that serve in the IDF that kills the palestinians? are they not sinning?
I know some very nice ismailies that gamble...hmm..they must not be sinning..as per your logic...

it isn't about being born with sin - we all are surrounded by temptations...and we have to restrain one's self.


Drinking and smoking are temptations. Being homosexual isn't a tempation. People are born homosexual and that is natural for them. It's just how being heterosexual is natural for you and I.

You can choose whether you drink or smoke. Gays don't choose to be gay. If they had a choice, do you think they would choose to be gay knowing they would experience massive prejudice.

By your logic they are born with original sin..

We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1098

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sumi25 wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
Sumi25 wrote:
ShamsB wrote:

Here you go

Seerat Conference Karachi, Pakistan

Friday, March 12, 1976

"I have observed in the Western world a deeply changing pattern of human relations. The anchors of moral behaviour appear to have dragged to such depths that they no longer hold firm the ship of life. What was once wrong is now simply unconventional, and for the sake of individual freedom must be tolerated. What is tolerated soon becomes accepted. Contrarily, what was once right is now viewed as outdated, old-fashioned and is often the target of ridicule.

In the face of this changing world, which was once a universe to us and is now no more than an overcrowded island, confronted with a fundamental challenge to our understanding of time, surrounded by a foreign fleet of cultural and ideological ships which have broken loose, I ask, "Do we have a clear, firm and precise understanding of what Muslim Society is to be in times to come?" And if as I believe, the answer is uncertain, where else can we search then in the Holy Quran, and in the example of Allah's last and final Prophet? "


So the Imam says..search the Holy Qu'ran - which forbids homosexuality...so we have an answer don't we?

Shams


Hmm the Qu'ran also states that we shouldn't befriend Christians or Jews and that men are greater than women.. If you take the literal meaning of the Qu'ran, or any religious book for that matter, you would see that there are contradictions all over the place. That's why we have a living Imam for interpretation and guidance.

I have come to know a few homosexuals and they are the nicest of people. Do you honestly think they are sinning? Is being born a certain way a sin? Did God create human beings with sin already manufactured into them from birth, a sin they can never escape? That's like saying being black is a sin.


See we have a living Imam that interprets the Quran for us...
in his farmans we have been told to build bridges with people of other faiths..so that supercedes the Quran..however no farman overriding the Quran's direction on homosexual sex.

I know some very nice people that drink and smoke..are they not sinning?
i know some very nice jews that serve in the IDF that kills the palestinians? are they not sinning?
I know some very nice ismailies that gamble...hmm..they must not be sinning..as per your logic...

it isn't about being born with sin - we all are surrounded by temptations...and we have to restrain one's self.


Drinking and smoking are temptations. Being homosexual isn't a tempation. People are born homosexual and that is natural for them. It's just how being heterosexual is natural for you and I.

You can choose whether you drink or smoke. Gays don't choose to be gay. If they had a choice, do you think they would choose to be gay knowing they would experience massive prejudice.

By your logic they are born with original sin..

We'll just have to agree to disagree.



we can't..because by your logic..children born to crack mothers should not be addicted to crack then?.....
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Sumi25



Joined: 22 Dec 2008
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

we can't..because by your logic..children born to crack mothers should not be addicted to crack then?.....


Wow now you're likening gays to crack babies.. That is such a prejudiced ignorant statement. Being gay is not a disease. Like I said in a previous post, that would be like saying being black is a disease.

Your previous posts at least had some merit to them. Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1098

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sumi25 wrote:
ShamsB wrote:

we can't..because by your logic..children born to crack mothers should not be addicted to crack then?.....


Wow now you're likening gays to crack babies.. That is such a prejudiced ignorant statement. Being gay is not a disease. Like I said in a previous post, that would be like saying being black is a disease.

Your previous posts at least had some merit to them. Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


we're talking about predisposition..not about crack babies..
how do crack babies have control over what their mothers do?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 12855

PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sumi25 wrote:

Drinking and smoking are temptations. Being homosexual isn't a tempation. People are born homosexual and that is natural for them. It's just how being heterosexual is natural for you and I.

You can choose whether you drink or smoke. Gays don't choose to be gay. If they had a choice, do you think they would choose to be gay knowing they would experience massive prejudice.

By your logic they are born with original sin..

We'll just have to agree to disagree.


Just a quick question. If homesexuality is a natural inherent tendency, why did not the Prophets who brought us Divine laws regulate the behaviour for us. We have elaborate laws regarding marriages. Why not include gay marriages as well? After all homosexuality if it is natural, it would have existed always and our Prophets who were the embodiment of Mercy would have instituted a code of conduct for the society to accept this and the societies would have accepted whatever the Prophets told them....
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finni



Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, there is no such firman on the subject but our Imam would never make a direct reference in a firman on such subject as the time is not right for it. Just imagine, how much controversy it would create; and the reaction from the not so pluralistic minded people.

Here is what Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah had to say in his memoirs: "I firmly believe that the higher [spiritual] experience can to a certain extent be prepared for by absolute devotion in the material world to another human being. Thus from the most worldly point of view and with no comprehension of the higher life of the spirit, the lower, more terrestrial spirit makes us aware that all the treasures of this life, all that fame, wealth and health can bring are nothing beside the happiness which is created and sustained by the love of one human being for another but as the joys of human love surpass all that riches and power may bring a man, so does that greater spiritual love and enlightenment, the fruit of that sublime experience of the direct vision of reality which is God's gift and grace, surpass all that the finest, truest human love can offer.

Our Mowla is is very loving and is surrounded by people from various walks of life and ideal.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 12855

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

finni wrote:


Here is what Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah had to say in his memoirs: "I firmly believe that the higher [spiritual] experience can to a certain extent be prepared for by absolute devotion in the material world to another human being.


I think the issue is not whether someone can love another human being of the same sex, two males can love and care for each other as brothers, and two females can love and care for each other as sisters. It is the extent and form of the expression of the love that is in question....
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