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Christianity
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nargisk3



Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Posts: 49
Location: San Antonio, TX

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:25 am    Post subject: Christianity Reply with quote

Hi ya'll. I know that as Ismailies, we believe that Christianity is a religion of the book, and that Jesus was not the son of Christ, but a Prophet instead. However, what do we believe about Jesus's death? Do we believe that he died on the cross and that he will be resurrected? Will Prophet Mohammed be resurrected? I have a friend who's a very devout Christian, and she and I talk about this a lot and often share our own beliefs on ethical issues- we were planning on going to watch the movie "Passion of Christ" with Mel Gibson this weekend- the movie has to do with Jesus's death...do ya'll think i'm contradicting my own beliefs by going to see this movie, or by learning more about Christianity? I don't really feel like I'm doing anything wrong, but I guess I just needed a second opinion..hope ya'll can help! Thanks. =)
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 647

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 1:37 am    Post subject: Its just a movie Reply with quote

Its just a movie. Have fun hope you enjoy it.

even the christians believe that christ is the path to God.

One of the name our Imam is also called is "Isa-e-zaman" meaning jesus of the time.

The Bible states in the begining there was a word. The word was with God, the word was God.

Our Ginans say "Aad thaki ek sun nipaya, sun mathi shabd nipaya" meaning from aad (before time) nothingness came into being and from that nothingness came a word.

What most christians dont know is what that word was. As Ismailies we are the only ones who are given the Ismae-Azam (Supreme word) by our Imam.

Most of the world is busy worshipping dead people or their graves. Ismailies are the only ones who are blessed with a continuous shower of blessings from the Source of all existance, through time, for centuries.



And as far as Prophet Mohamed is concerned what do you think Hazir Imam in his Pir Joma is?

It is the Noor of Prophet Mohammed.

You see nargis this entire world and most of our Ismailies are focussed on the physical body.
Our faith is ruhani meaning spiritual and everything spiritual exists above this world.
That which is above this world is impossible to articulate into this worldly language of words and letters.

Christianity worships the body hence when they think of any other faith they look at it from their own perspective hence questions about resurrection of Prophet Mohammed arise. Prophet Mohammed had Mairaj which is itself meeting with the creator. once you meet the creator you become eternal and hence resurrection is not even an issue.

Resurrection applies to those who are dead. The Noor of Prophet Mohammed is alive and will forever live in the Imam of the time.

Now if you try to explain this concept to anyone else it will be extremely hard. People who have no idea about the eternal how wiill they ever understand the concept of Noor of Imamat and Noor of Nabuwat.

One time Imam SMS declared in a conference of Islamic scholars that he was "Khalifatullah and Khalifatul Rasulillah" not one person objected to that declaration.

Hope you enjoy the movie and share with us what you learned.

Shams
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jasmine



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: Its just a movie Reply with quote

Shams that was very well explained! You have cleared some questions
that I had in my mind about Christanity.

Am I correct in understanding that ismailis dont have to read Quran because we have Boltu Quran which is Mowla Bapa and he guides us accordingly. Correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks Shams and Keep up the good work and may God Bless you. Ameen
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9991

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Its just a movie Reply with quote

jasmine wrote:
Am I correct in understanding that ismailis dont have to read Quran because we have Boltu Quran which is Mowla Bapa and he guides us accordingly. Correct me if I am wrong.



Jasmine, I just posted an article on the "Relevance of the Quran" under Alwaez Kamaluddin and Ginans in the Ginans Section. You may want to read it.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9991

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:34 am    Post subject: Resurrection of Christ Reply with quote

I would just like to share my thoughts on this subject.

There is a great deal of controversy as to whether it did take place. There are conflicting theories. The question is whether this is believable or not within our faith. Certainly it is. In the Ginan "Janat-Puree" by Sayyed Imam Shah which can be referenced in the Ginan Section, there is an incident whereby Peer Hasan Kabirdeen resurrected himself to satisfy Sayyed Imam Shah. If Peer Hassan Kabirdeen could resurrect himself then it is possible that Jesus could have resurrected himself. After all, they are the same light i.e. Nur-e Nabuwwah. The issue is not whether it happened but rather so what if it did happen. Unlike the Christians we do not base our faith on that incident. Our resurrection is about merging with the Noor of Allah.

It is possible for elevated souls to die at will and to revive themselves. Parahansa Yogananda who was a great Indian yogi and who spread the teachings of Kriya Yoga in the West in the early twentieth century, describes in his autobiography the resurrection of his master Swami Sri Yukteswar. It is a very interesting account. Swami Yogananda himself died at will. He knew when he would go and died in "Mahasamadhi" (Great Peace in meditation).

These incidences certainly allude to the higher possibilities of elevated human souls and certainly they inspire quest for a higher life. But they should not form the basis of faith.
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nargisk3



Joined: 01 Jan 2004
Posts: 49
Location: San Antonio, TX

PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much Shamshu and kmaherali! That really clarifies a lot for me =)
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9991

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:36 am    Post subject: TV Documentary on Jesus and Paul Reply with quote

There is an interesting TV documentary to be aired tomorrow at 9.00pm on ABC tiltled: "Jesus and Paul: The Word and the Witness". The following is the preview of the program from Calgary Herald. It sounds interesting and very important in the context pluralism.

Jennings explores how Christianity survived thanks to Paul

David Bauder
The Associated Press


Sunday, April 04, 2004





Bringing a reporter's eye to biblical stories is Peter Jennings' passion.

ABC is taking the extraordinary step of devoting all three hours of prime time Monday to Jennings' latest religious saga, Jesus and Paul: The Word and the Witness.

Jennings said the special's timing and content was locked in before Mel Gibson's film The Passion of The Christ became a huge success.

Still, the movie can't help but affect how the ABC show is perceived, and may bring in more viewers.

"In the wake of The Passion, which created such intensity, we bring some further education to the debate that people are having," he said.

Jennings saw Gibson's movie, but declines to give his opinion of it.

The ABC project is essentially the sequel to In Search of Jesus, the 2000 special on Jesus Christ's life that finished third in the week's television rankings, an unusually potent performance for a documentary.

Jennings immediately asked to examine Paul, who did more than anyone to spread Jesus's message to a non-Jewish world.

"Paul is a wonderful story, just a wonderfully interesting story, and a story very relevant to today," Jennings said. "So much of what we're debating in the country today -- marriage, sex, religiosity, the role of women -- was precisely what was going on in Paul's day."

During the documentary, set to a contemporary soundtrack with the likes of Joan Osborne, R.E.M. and Curtis Mayfield, Jennings tries to describe what life and politics were like in Jesus's time.

The special is careful to note the several areas where scholars disagree, particularly about Christ's resurrection. Many believe literally in everything written in the Bible, while others believe the Resurrection was metaphorical.

Something must have happened, otherwise it's hard to explain how Jesus's story has endured so long, Jennings said.

Jennings discovers three different tourist traps that claim to be where Paul allegedly saw the spirit of Jesus and began preaching his message.

It also details how Christianity spread in large part because Paul said followers did not have to follow Jewish laws -- meaning men did not have to be circumcised.

The letters Paul wrote play a prominent role in church services today. The ABC documentary helps bring some of the letters that churchgoers take for granted to life.

"If you just accepted only the Bible, you would not be doing a reporter's job, which is why you have to look at Roman history and Jewish history that was outside of the gospels," Jennings said.

"Which is why Paul in many ways is such a fascinating story, because he left this extraordinary paper trail," he said.

Jennings said he hopes viewers realize through the documentary how it's unlikely that the movement Jesus founded would have survived beyond the first century if it weren't for Paul.

© The Calgary Herald 2004









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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9991

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2004 1:15 pm    Post subject: TV Documentary Cont. Reply with quote

Watching this programme will serve two purposes which resonate on the strength of pluralism.

- Give a basic understanding of the doctrines of Christianity and the controversies surrrounding them.
- Hopefully some aspects of the programme will illuminate our traditions. I cannot say at this point what they might be until I have seen the programme.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9991

PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 5:58 am    Post subject: Shared Values - Strength in Pluralism Reply with quote

The following article that appeared in today's Calgary Herald is an example of how encounters with other traditions serve to reinforce and illuminate shared principles - a strength of pluralism.

Easter reflections: Themes of sacrifice, forgiveness and resurrection touch us all


Calgary Herald


April 11, 2004





Matthew Arnold once said that "The true meaning of religion is not simply morality, but morality touched by emotion."

Recently, there has been a renewed interest in its meaning given Mel Gibson's The Passion of The Christ, which revealed that North Americans are indeed interested in and will pay to see well-crafted religious-inspired art. Such a response was assumed unlikely even at this time last year. And whether one was favourably disposed to Gibson's portrayal of Christ's suffering or not, there is no doubt he fulfilled Arnold's necessary criteria.

Thus, while it is no secret that on average Canadians and Europeans are less faithful adherents to regular religious practice than Americans, that is perhaps even a better reason this Easter to stop, to pause, and to reflect on spiritual questions and matters, a practice too easily glided over in a world of 24-hour news and seven-days a week shopping.

So consider then the deeper truths and lessons of Easter.

The theme of sacrifice was once again demonstrated just recently when a British Columbian lost his life in Iraq in his attempt to help re-build that country. Politics aside, it is our hope that his sacrifice was not in vain, and indeed we believe it was not.

In smaller ways, from courtesy to individual self-sacrifice that does not involve the loss of life, it is worth pondering where each one of us can slow down, change priorities, spend more time with family and friends, and give in a manner that enriches the lives of others; as the cliche goes -- on their deathbed, no one wishes they'd spent more time at the office.

Another Easter theme, forgiveness, is worth recalling. While Christ's example included reminding people to avoid evil -- "go and sin no more" -- mercy was always available to those who recognized their own faults and sought to mend their ways with those around them. So too, should we extend such compassion.

The theme of resurrection is also pregnant with potential in each one of our lives if we allow for it. After a winter of occasionally necessary dormancy, be it in the physical world, in our relationships, or in our souls, new life in all its beauty is always possible -- be it a delicate new flower in the Rockies in spring, life-giving care for another human being made in the image of God, or listening to the still, small voice in our own souls that calls on us to create, protect and nurture life whenever possible.

Finally, the Easter message is surely a celebration of life and joy. That, too, should always be celebrated, whether it be in the renewal of our passion for the divine, for others, for that which we create such as art, or even in appreciating the joy and smile of a child.

Happy Easter.

©
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 647

PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:32 am    Post subject: The Truth Reply with quote

Ya Aly Madad jasmin,

I am sorry I missed your post until today.

You want the truth?

Can you handle the truth?

If you can read on.

That which every one calls a Quran is not THE Quran. What we have today is a compilation of quranic ayats made by a human being named Usman many years after the prophets death.

Imam SMS in his Farmans has referred to this as "Usman ni Kitab"

In my opinion Quran is the experience of a momin reading (understanding) the truth from inside his heart. This has been mentioned in our ginans.

The book that has all the Quranic Ayats is called Kitabullah and this is in the possession of Imam-e-Zaman. In his Farmans Imam SMS has explained how Mowla Aly went to the muslim leaders with Kitabullah and asked them to take it but they refused saying Usmans book was enough for them. Even our current Imam refers to reading "parts of the Quran" that are relevant to our interpretation of the faith.

Imam SMS has made Farmans where he has elaborated the types of changes that were done to the Quran by Usman.

There are Farmans that specifically say the the Quran was for the arabic people and for you (us khojas) Pir Sadardeen has composed ginans that have the spiritual esscence of the quran in them. Imam SMS had challenged Ismailies that if they could get 10 people whom know the ginans and the Quran He (Imam SMS) will provide proof that every line of the ginans is from the Quran.

Allah in the Quran has himself stated that he has provided guidance in their own language to all people. Now why would he do that if what he wanted was for people to learn a foreign language (Arabic) or read translations of it in your own language.

The guidance is all around us, most of all in our hearts as our inner voice.
Mowla Aly has stated "Between you and spirituality is a veil of heedlessness"
Instead of running after a book compiled by Usman in a foreign language I think it is better to look inside first and pay heed to Allah when he talks to you in your heart. I think that Farman Bardari is better than anything else.

"vaasal hove jaat haqme/usme (I am not sure which), assal apne ko pave" kalame Mowla I think

I am sorry if I have offended anyone with my rant here.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams
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unnalhaq



Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 352

PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:14 am    Post subject: This may be the only time I agree with shamsu Reply with quote

Here is some food for thought... the word "YAA SHA'H"  is also a Hebrew word meaning to save or The Savior...
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aminL



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 84
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM,
<P>As we already know Chirtainity is o&shy;ne of the major monotheastic faiths in the&nbsp; world along with Judism and Islam.&nbsp; What we do know based o&shy;n the Holy Qyran is that Jesus was not crusified and the Quran totally denies the whole incident.&nbsp; There are three ways of looking at this so called "sacrifice" of Jesus.&nbsp; o&shy;ne way is through the eyes of the Jews.&nbsp; Crusifiction was a punishment which was given to thise who were of very low status and who were bad criminals.&nbsp; So according to the Jews since Jesus was crucified that totally denies the fact that he was a phrophet.&nbsp; Christians believe that when Jesus was crusified, he washed away the sins of all man-kind.&nbsp; Where as Islam says that Allah would not allow something that cruel to come of his phrophet.&nbsp; So in return to your question, as muslims, we do not believe that Jesus was crusified o&shy;n the cross.&nbsp; This is the muslim interpretation.&nbsp; </P>
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aminL



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 84
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM,
<P>As we already know Chirtainity is o&shy;ne of the major monotheastic faiths in the&nbsp; world along with Judism and Islam.&nbsp; What we do know based o&shy;n the Holy Qyran is that Jesus was not crusified and the Quran totally denies the whole incident.&nbsp; There are three ways of looking at this so called "sacrifice" of Jesus.&nbsp; o&shy;ne way is through the eyes of the Jews.&nbsp; Crusifiction was a punishment which was given to thise who were of very low status and who were bad criminals.&nbsp; So according to the Jews since Jesus was crucified that totally denies the fact that he was a phrophet.&nbsp; Christians believe that when Jesus was crusified, he washed away the sins of all man-kind.&nbsp; Where as Islam says that Allah would not allow something that cruel to come of his phrophet.&nbsp; So in return to your question, as muslims, we do not believe that Jesus was crusified o&shy;n the cross.&nbsp; This is the muslim interpretation.&nbsp; </P>
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 647

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:18 am    Post subject: What sacrifice? Reply with quote

Ya Aly Madad everyone,

A friend who calls himself Giant Paw had explained this to me

It is clearly stated in the Quran and I believe the Bible that when Abraham tried to make a human sacrifice of his son God did not accept it but an animal was accepted.

This in history was the time when God refused to accept human sacrifice.

Since then there has not been any incidence of human sacrifice being accepted by God.

This christian theory can thus be proven to have a hollow foundation.

I bet none of you thought of this before.

SHAMS
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 294

PostPosted: Thu May 27, 2004 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can we be sure Jesus was crucified ? From the Nag Hamadi Library of early christian manuscripts [the 51 volunes have been translated into French by Laval Univ. - I read those many years ago], I think we can safetly conclude that Jesus was not on the cross but rather his brother was on the cross to allow Jesus to get away safetly.

This was done with the complicity of Judah who showed to the Roman the brother of Jesus instead of Jesus. The Roman had not seen Jesus and I guess they believed the plot. So contrary to the Christian belief, Judah was not a treator, I think he was as good as the 11 other apostles. After they took the brother off the cross, the other disciples made sure the body was to disappear so no one recognised the switch.

This will explain a lot of think such as:

1) The person on the cross said "Elie Elie Lama Sabakhtani - God, why have you forsaken me?" Surprising statement from a peacefull and good person like Jesus..

2) Peter said when the so called Jesus with his cross came near him that he did not know that person. In fact how could he lie, he knew very well that the person was not Jesus..

3) The fact that the mother was crying: normal because it was her other son on the Cross. The Nag Hamadi manuscript describe the family of Jesus, even his wife and kids, they give the names of Jesus' brothers. The "Paulian Christianity" that we know today is very far historically of what really happened.

As it was done for the Quran, there was also an attempt to destroy all of the gospels, including those written during Jesus' time. [Some people hide whatever they could for posterity to find them].

Now, for Quran also, all of the copies were ordered to be burned so only Usman's compilation would stay but other copies will be found.. in fact one different copy was found in Yemen and photos taken to Germany.. Also in Bhankipore - INdia, they found some of the missing Surats, including the Surat al Nurayan, [the Surat of the 2 lights - piratan and Imamat]. More will be found as the world becomes open and the Intellectual tradition once again become part of the Muslim world.
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