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Pir and Prophet

 
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:08 pm    Post subject: Pir and Prophet Reply with quote

Whose status is more higher. The one of Pir or of Prophet as Hazrat Ibrahim was a Prophet but than he became Pir in this manner it seems that status of Pir is more than that of a Prophet but on other hand in Ginan Momin Cheetamni it is that Pir Shams Said I am Prophet's slave.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:02 am    Post subject: Pir Prophet Reply with quote

Prophet is higher than Pir.
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kandani



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were 124,000 Prophets...

Not all of them were Pir though.

i think Pir is higher than Prophet.

Piratan is an exalted station - the station of the Light of Muhammad - which is the Universal Soul.

Only select Prophets from the lineage of Abraham were also Pir.
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_thaillestlunatic_



Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Prophet and Pir are the same

maybe Prophet is slightly more elevated than the Pir
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:04 am    Post subject: Compare Reply with quote

I was just thinking, are we comparing apples to oranges.

prophets existed before the revelation of the manifest Nur.

Piratan started after the revelation.

Are they 2 sides of the same coin?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21154

PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Based upon the above verses of the Ginans: "Sab Ghat Sami Maro Bharpur Betha" and "Anant Akhado", I would say that they are of the same light - the light of Gur Bhrama.

Essentially it is the light of Piratan which may perform different roles. Sometimes it performs the role of a Prophet, at other times it is restricted to preaching SatPanth faith, at other times it is restricted to contemplation and meditation and even at times it is an infant!

An interesting anectdote from Alwaez Haji's "Noor en Ala Noor"

"When Pir Shabuddin Shah passed away from this material world in 1883, his father Mowlana Shah Aga Alishah, our 47th Imam, appointed Pir Shahbuddin Shah's son, Abul Hassan Shah as the Pir. Abul Hassan Shah was only six months old at the time. Every Saturday, before Jamath used to visit the Pir for DastBoshi, he was being officially requested in advance by our leaders and announcements made in Jamat Khana. Pir Abul Hassan Shah used to give a smile, and for Dastboshi stretch out his hand from the cradle to Jamati members"
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kasamali



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 113

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exoteric interpretation of the scriptures reveals that each of the prophets received divine revealation through the angel Gebrael. Though esoteric interpretation differs slightly, it too suggests that none of the prophets received direct revealation from the God ( Imam).
The main function of each prphet was to convey to the masses the divine (shariati) revealations such as -- oneness of God, code of conducts in worldly and outer form of religious matters, and insinuation of the prophet to follow. So none of the Arabian prophets except prophet Muhammed ( PM) really knew about the physical presence of the Imam – the physical form of light of God of his time.
PM was awarded prophetship at the age of 40, but still he did not achieved the highest status in spirituality until few years later in the form of Mairaj, the Noorani Deedar of the God. PM possesed dual distinction of both prophetship and Piratanship. Besides this, he also has the unique distinction of introducing(declaring) the Imamat of Ali. That is why he is regarded as the leader and seal of all the prophets.
Thus we can see that merely awarding of prophetship does not necessarily mean the attainment of highest spiritual stage.
On the other hand, as per Pandiate Jawa(n)mardi ( the Farmans of Imam Mustansir Billah-II) :
Quote:
‘ when Piratan is awarded to a person, he becomes best among all humans(mankind)’
Thus in terms of spirituality, Piratan is at the higher level than the prophetship of all the Arabian prophets, except Ibrahim and PM who were also awarded Piratnships.
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kandani



Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think more than Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Abraham were awared the Piratan.

The 6 Natiqs - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad reached the status of Piratan.

The case of Moses is recorded in the Quran. The case of Jesus is talked about in Imam SMS farman. The case of Muhammad was in Miraj. Case of Abraham is also in the Quran.

In addition, some of the minor Prophets were awarded Piratan.

For example, Prophet Enoch was awarded Piratan station (this is in the Quran).

After Prophet Abraham, Prophet Isaac became the Imam Mustawda/Pir and Prophet Jacob and Prophet Joseph succeeded him in this.

Also...Prophet Joshua who succeeded Prophet Moses was a Pir/Imam Mustawda according to Shia sources. He was the outward leader of the Israelite Community while the Imam (Haroon's son Eleazar) was in young age.

The successors of Joshua and some of the Judges were probably also at the level of Piratan because they were the spiritual leaders of the Bani Isreal.

Another case....Prophet Jesus succeeded Prophet John in the Piratan.

James, the brother of Jesus, most likely suceeded Prophet Jesus in the Piratan.

This Piratan found its way to Monk Bahira before reverting to the Imam Abu Talib and being delegated to Prophet Muhammad.

In each time, there is always Pir and Imam present. Sometimes in one person, sometimes in two.
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curious2



Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some questions :

Q: After PM when he revealed Ali's Imamat, who was the first Pir and where can I see reference on later Pirs during the history of Imams.

Q: Is Hazir Imam the only Imam who holds Pir/Imam designation?

Q: Can I see reference from Qur'an on this concept of Pir.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21154

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

curious2 wrote:
Some questions :

Q: After PM when he revealed Ali's Imamat, who was the first Pir and where can I see reference on later Pirs during the history of Imams.

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

For the later Pirs, the link to the geneology is:
http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7html

curious2 wrote:

Q: Is Hazir Imam the only Imam who holds Pir/Imam designation?

As it is apparent from the geneology some Imam's have held both positions.
curious2 wrote:

Q: Can I see reference from Qur'an on this concept of Pir.

There is no reference to the concept of Pir in the Quran according to my understanding. As a matter of fact this concept has not been part of the Fatimid thinking of Imamat as reflected in the works of Nasr Khusraw.

The way I see it, this concept is a Batini aspect of our Tariqah whereas the concept of Imam as articulated by Nasr Khusraw is the Zaheri aspect.

According to Nasr Khusraw, the Imam inherited the prophethood whereas the Ginanic tradition asserts that the Prophet introduced Imamat (which has existed since the beginning). In the context of our diversity, both are vailid depending on how you want to view them.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Quranic Verse about Pir or Imam Mustwada.
From:
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/myflag/16appendixc.html

The two terms, mustaqar Imam and mustawda Imam, are in application in the Ismaili theories to denote the types of the Imam, which have come from the following Koranic verse:-

"It is He Who produced (ansha'a) you from one living soul, and then (there is) a lodging place (mustaqar), and then a repository (mustawda). Indeed, We made plain the signs for a people who understand" (6:9icon_cool.gif
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21154

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came across a post in another forum in which it was stated that MHI referred to Nasir Khusraw as Sayyidna Pir Nasr Khusraw although he was not from the "ahl-e-bayt". This to me sounds OK because others have also been appointed Pir posthumously. For example, Pir Subzali. However during the time of Nasir Khusraw the Peer was Peer Satgur Noor.

We need to appreciate the diversity of traditions within our faith. I think Nasr Khusraw and Ginanic traditions are distinct although they have the Imam as a common factor. If Hujjat is as essential as the Peer, than who was the Hujjat after Nasr Khusraw. This is not to undermine Nasir Khusraws work which I feel has powerful and inspiring philosophy expressed both in prose and poetry. It is merely to underline that there is a difference between the two approaches particularly with reference to the concept of Imamat.

At present there might be a need to blend the two approaches with metaphysical correspondence between Pir and Hujjat, but historically they have evolved separately and have their own strengths and can be applied in different circumstances to serve the cause of the evolution of our faith in diverse situations.
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s786



Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 91

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you suggesting now that the Pir does not have to be from "ahl-e-bayt"?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

s786 wrote:
Are you suggesting now that the Pir does not have to be from "ahl-e-bayt"?
I was expecting this question. While alive Peers can only come from 'ahl-e-bayt', but posthumously others can be honoured as Pirs. The following is the anecdote of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah appointing Pir Subzali.

On December 15, 1938, the Imam said, "The photo of late Itmadi Sabzali be placed in the jamatkhana. His photos also be kept in the jamatkhanas of Karachi, Punjab and Sialkot."

On the occasion of the unveiling ceremony of his photo in the Recreation Club Institute on January 18, 1939, the Imam made the following historical announcement: -

"Itmadi Sabzali has served me in such a manner that after his death, I honor him the title of a Pir. If others would render such services, they too shall secure a like status. During the stretch of 54 years of my Imamate, to only one Pir Sabzali, I honor such a status."


Last edited by kmaherali on Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total
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s786



Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the world "Pir" here is different from the Pir that comes from "Ahl-e-Bayt". I would think so.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

s786 wrote:
Perhaps the world "Pir" here is different from the Pir that comes from "Ahl-e-Bayt". I would think so.
I am inclined to agree.
However in the past the Imam's have accepted other elevated murids as 'ahl-e-bait', i.e their own family members. For example, Salman Faras. So Pir Subzali and Pir Nasir Khusraw would also be considered in that light.

"On December 14, 1938, the Imam said to the Bombay jamat that, "Itmadi Sabzali has reached on God's mercy. I give my blessings for him. His name always will remain immortalized in the history. He was a chief dai of the present jamat like the dais of the past, and glorified the Ismaili faith in Africa, Sind, Punjab, Gwadar and India."


Last edited by kmaherali on Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total
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s786



Joined: 10 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it makes sense on many levels. Especially when "Pir" is referred to as a title. The word "Pir" has many meanings, in several languages. Aside from that, I don't think one who is appointed the title of "Pir" is/was the Imam Mustawda, which are the "Pirs" from Ahl-e-bayt.

Correct?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21154

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

s786 wrote:
I think it makes sense on many levels. Especially when "Pir" is referred to as a title. The word "Pir" has many meanings, in several languages. Aside from that, I don't think one who is appointed the title of "Pir" is/was the Imam Mustawda, which are the "Pirs" from Ahl-e-bayt.

Correct?
Yes, also the fact that they belong to 'ahl-e-bayt' lends credibility and respect to the office and hence acceptance by the Jamat as authoritative.
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zubair_mahamood



Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 238

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madaad,

kasamali wrote:
So none of the Arabian prophets except prophet Muhammed ( PM) really knew about the physical presence of the Imam – the physical form of light of God of his time.


1) Base on the explanation of Mustaqar Imam and Mustawda Imam it would be difficult to say none of the Arabian Prophets except Prophet Muhammad really knew about the physical presence of the Imam as some Prophets like Prophet Adam himself was Imam and Prophet at same time… so if Prophet Adam was Imam and Prophet at same time how is that he didn’t have knowledge of it?

2) It can be said that the Prophet Muhammad was first to convey to believers of Physical presence of Imam that to on Imam Message and Assurance…

Quranic Versa: O Apostle, deliver (to the people), what has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; and if thou did not do so, then thou hast not delivered His Message, and Allah will protect thee from the people. (Sura Ma'eda - Sura 5 Ayat 67)

This versa remind us of the Allah’s assurance and command to Prophet Muhammad as well it still remind Hazar Imam (Mustawda Imam) that the message is still not connived….

kasamali wrote:
PM was awarded prophetship at the age of 40, but still he did not achieved the highest status in spirituality until few years later in the form of Mairaj, the Noorani Deedar of the God. PM possesed dual distinction of both prophetship and Piratanship. Besides this, he also has the unique distinction of introducing(declaring) the Imamat of Ali. That is why he is regarded as the leader and seal of all the prophets.


Prophet Muhammad was leader of Prophets… Prophet of Prophets… why?

This status was awarded by Allah… an example

1) None of the Prophet before Him was awarded the Night of Mirhaj (Norrani Dedaar of Allah) other prophets had a chance to talk or to listen….

2) Another reason on the night of Mihraj before Prophet Muhammad Journey started He leaded Prayers with all prophets behind Him… (It was on this situation when someone asked to Prophet Muhammad about the Number of Prophets…. Prophet replied 124000! This number was never mention before)

As far as awarded Prophetship at the age of 40, I think he was Prophet by birth his declaration was formally made at age of 40… Like Mowla Ali was Imam by birth but He was declared Imam before Prophet Muhammad physically departed….

To support my explanation all Prophets Mention in Quran before there birth there respective parents got message of birth and prophethood… Prophet Musa, Prophet Esa! So how is it possible the Allah who gave The Best status to Prophet Muhammad didn’t made him Prophet by birth….

Zubair Mahamood
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 21154

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zubair_mahamood wrote:

Base on the explanation of Mustaqar Imam and Mustawda Imam it would be difficult to say none of the Arabian Prophets except Prophet Muhammad really knew about the physical presence of the Imam as some Prophets like Prophet Adam himself was Imam and Prophet at same time… so if Prophet Adam was Imam and Prophet at same time how is that he didn’t have knowledge of it?

Hazarat Adam himself was not the Imam. His father was the Imam (Imam Hunayd) and his son Seth was the Imam. His situation is similar to Prince Alykan who was both a son and a father to an Imam.
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zubair_mahamood



Joined: 14 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madaad Karim,

kmaherali wrote:
zubair_mahamood wrote:

Base on the explanation of Mustaqar Imam and Mustawda Imam it would be difficult to say none of the Arabian Prophets except Prophet Muhammad really knew about the physical presence of the Imam as some Prophets like Prophet Adam himself was Imam and Prophet at same time… so if Prophet Adam was Imam and Prophet at same time how is that he didn’t have knowledge of it?

Hazarat Adam himself was not the Imam. His father was the Imam (Imam Hunayd) and his son Seth was the Imam. His situation is similar to Prince Alykan who was both a son and a father to an Imam.


I am talking of First Prophet Adam…. I think u are misunderstanding me… how can it be possible that Prophet Adam be similar to Prince Alykhan because he was first human created...?

Anyways Thanks Karim for correcting me… I was in a impression that Prophet Adam was also Imam…. Do I have a valid point in saying that Prophets before Prophet Muhammad has knowledge of Physical Presence of Imam but the work of revelation was explicitly assigned to Prophet Muhammad……

It is said in Sunni interpretation of Quran!!! When Prophet Adam and Amma Hawa(eve) were punished for disobeying Allah they were send to earth and left separated… Adam asked forgiveness for 700 +years (I m really bad at remembering Numbers), He did whatever he can to get forgiven for his disobedience but nothing worked… finally Adam ask Allah to forgive Him for the sake of Prophet Muhammad (Purpose) who will bring final message of Allah! If we take this tradition then it can be said that Even Adam had Knowledge of Prophet Muhammad and his final message, another tradition which is supports my argument is even Prophet Esa (Jesus) once prayed to Allah to Make him reborn in Ahi-e-bayt because its widely believed that Prophets umath (followers) (we) will be directly in contact or directly under the Noor of Allah(its one of the reason which Sunnis believe that Imam Mehdi will come (who will be for Ahi-e-hayt) and with him Prophet Jesus will return), and its commonly believed by us that the Noor which Adam was given is never taken back but Its passed from one generation to next generation meaning that the knowledge that Prophet Adam had was never taken back which means every Prophet after Prophet Adam and before Prophet Muhammad had Knowledge of Final Message and Physically Presence of Imam but the work of revelation was only given to Prophet Muhammad….

Zubair Mahamood
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
zubair_mahamood wrote:

Base on the explanation of Mustaqar Imam and Mustawda Imam it would be difficult to say none of the Arabian Prophets except Prophet Muhammad really knew about the physical presence of the Imam as some Prophets like Prophet Adam himself was Imam and Prophet at same time… so if Prophet Adam was Imam and Prophet at same time how is that he didn’t have knowledge of it?

Hazarat Adam himself was not the Imam. His father was the Imam (Imam Hunayd) and his son Seth was the Imam. His situation is similar to Prince Alykan who was both a son and a father to an Imam.


Ya Ali Madad Karim,
I have read about it before also some where here. Can you write more details about this and Ismaili interpreation of Adam...who was her mother and father etc?
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zubair_mahamood wrote:
Ya Ali Madaad,

kasamali wrote:
So none of the Arabian prophets except prophet Muhammed ( PM) really knew about the physical presence of the Imam – the physical form of light of God of his time.


1) Base on the explanation of Mustaqar Imam and Mustawda Imam it would be difficult to say none of the Arabian Prophets except Prophet Muhammad really knew about the physical presence of the Imam as some Prophets like Prophet Adam himself was Imam and Prophet at same time… so if Prophet Adam was Imam and Prophet at same time how is that he didn’t have knowledge of it?

2) It can be said that the Prophet Muhammad was first to convey to believers of Physical presence of Imam that to on Imam Message and Assurance…

Quranic Versa: O Apostle, deliver (to the people), what has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; and if thou did not do so, then thou hast not delivered His Message, and Allah will protect thee from the people. (Sura Ma'eda - Sura 5 Ayat 67)

This versa remind us of the Allah’s assurance and command to Prophet Muhammad as well it still remind Hazar Imam (Mustawda Imam) that the message is still not connived….

kasamali wrote:
PM was awarded prophetship at the age of 40, but still he did not achieved the highest status in spirituality until few years later in the form of Mairaj, the Noorani Deedar of the God. PM possesed dual distinction of both prophetship and Piratanship. Besides this, he also has the unique distinction of introducing(declaring) the Imamat of Ali. That is why he is regarded as the leader and seal of all the prophets.


Prophet Muhammad was leader of Prophets… Prophet of Prophets… why?

This status was awarded by Allah… an example

1) None of the Prophet before Him was awarded the Night of Mirhaj (Norrani Dedaar of Allah) other prophets had a chance to talk or to listen….

2) Another reason on the night of Mihraj before Prophet Muhammad Journey started He leaded Prayers with all prophets behind Him… (It was on this situation when someone asked to Prophet Muhammad about the Number of Prophets…. Prophet replied 124000! This number was never mention before)

As far as awarded Prophetship at the age of 40, I think he was Prophet by birth his declaration was formally made at age of 40… Like Mowla Ali was Imam by birth but He was declared Imam before Prophet Muhammad physically departed….

To support my explanation all Prophets Mention in Quran before there birth there respective parents got message of birth and prophethood… Prophet Musa, Prophet Esa! So how is it possible the Allah who gave The Best status to Prophet Muhammad didn’t made him Prophet by birth….

Zubair Mahamood



I also agree that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was Prophet from birth..though declared at age of 40. Before that also angels visited him. At birth time of Ali angels visisted (ref Moman Chetamni)
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zubair_mahamood



Joined: 14 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:

I also agree that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was Prophet from birth..though declared at age of 40. Before that also angels visited him. At birth time of Ali angels visisted (ref Moman Chetamni)


About Mowla Ali Its also mentioned in Sunni tradition that angles guiding Ali’s Mother toward kaaba and Prophet Muhammad has clearly admired Mowla Ali at his birth…
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM Munir and Zubair,

I think we must make the distinction between historical Adam (Prophet Adam) and the mythical Adam who can be symbolic of the first man or first occurence of human species. I am refering to Prophet Adam the son of Imam Hunayd (the first Budh Avtar).

A while back I had posted elsewhere my understanding of the mythical Adam as:

And We created you, then fashioned you, then told the angels: Fall ye prostrate before Adam! And they fell prostrate, all save Iblis, who was not of those who make prostration.(007:011)

So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him.(015:029)

So the angels fell prostrate, all of them together(015:03)

And He taught Adam all the names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform Me of the names of these, if ye are truthful (002:031)

In my opinion based upon the above verses of the Glorious Quran, Adam is not the first man but symbolic of the first process or occurence of the self consciousness and intellect in the highest form of evolved creation. The dust or clay is symbolic of the fact that we share genes with the rest of creation. The fashioning is symbolic of the evolutionary process of life. The breathing of my spirit alludes to the infusion of intellect which enables man to be self conscious on the one hand and able to comprehend creation and the Creator on the other- 'and he taught Adam all names'.

This implies that the psychological state of Adam would have been quite mature in order to be able to accomodate the new consciousness and intellect and with it to take charge of his life.

In his much acclaimed book, The Language of God, Francis Collins one of the scientists at the forefront of the science of genetics, quotes the explanation of C.S. Lewis a distinguished scholar of myth and history on Adam and Eve as per the following excerpt from the book and which echoes the above interpretation of the creation of Adam.

Many believers find the story of Adam and Eve compelling as literal history, but no less an intellect than C. S. Lewis, a distinguished scholar of myth and of history, found in the story of Adam and Eve something resembling a moral lesson rather than a scientific textbook or a biography. Here is Lewis's version of the events in question:

For long centuries, God perfected the animal form which was to become the vehicle of humanity and the image of Himself. He gave it hands whose thumb could be applied to each of the fingers, and jaws and teeth and throat capable of articulation, and a brain sufficiently complex to execute all of the material motions whereby rational thought is incarnated. The creature may have existed in this state for ages before it became man: it may even have been clever enough to make things which a modern archaeologist would accept as proof of its humanity. But it was only an animal because all its physical and psychical processes were directed to purely material and natural ends. Then, in the fullness of time, God caused to descend upon this organism, both on its psychology and physiology, a new kind of consciousness which could say "I" and "me," which could look upon itself as an object, which knew God, which could make judgments of truth, beauty and goodness, and which was so far above time that it could perceive time flowing past. ... We do not know how many of these creatures God made, nor how long they continued in the Paradisal state. But sooner or later they fell. Someone or something whispered that they could become as gods. . . . They wanted some corner in the universe of which they could say to God, "This is our business, not yours." But there is no such corner. They wanted to be nouns, but they were, and eternally must be, mere adjectives. We have no idea in what particular act, or series of acts, the self-contradictory, impossible wish found expression. For all I can see, it might have concerned the literal eating of a fruit, but the question is of no consequence
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mowla Ali Madad and thank you very much.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have noticed that many people say "rehmatuallah alahi" when it comes the name of Pirs like Pir Sadardin, Pir Shams, Pir Hassan Kabirdin etc.
Even many missionaries do the same.

I think it is not proper to use this with name of Pirs. As per Ginans we should understand Gur and Nar as one. Will we ever use rehmatullah alahi with name of Hazir Imam? then why we use it like Pir are just ordinary saints. As rehmatullah alahi is used generally with any ordinary saint or any respectable human being.
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arshad1988



Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM everyone,

Zubair, you mention the verse:

Quranic Versa: O Apostle, deliver (to the people), what has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; and if thou did not do so, then thou hast not delivered His Message, and Allah will protect thee from the people. (Sura Ma'eda - Sura 5 Ayat 67)

And then you say,

"This versa remind us of the Allah’s assurance and command to Prophet Muhammad as well it still remind Hazar Imam (Mustawda Imam) that the message is still not connived…"

Is this really true? Because from what I interpret, Prophet Muhammad(saws) revealed this message, and then at Ghadirr-E-Khumm declared Mowla Ali as Imam. Hence the Message was conveyed. After that, whoever listens to the Prophet listens, and whoever doesn't, doesn't listen to him. But from what I've heard, the Message from Allah(swt) was conveyed, that is why Allah(swt) also says that He perfected the faith and chose Islam as the religion in the Quran, that is, after He appointed Mowla Ali as the Imam and successor. Otherwise, in my interpretation, Islam was always a religion from beginning of, and before creation. It is submission to Allah(swt) which this religion has always been.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Ya Ali Madad,

-Arshad
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