Pir and Prophet

star_munir · Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 1600

Whose status is more higher. The one of Pir or of Prophet as Hazrat Ibrahim was a Prophet but than he became Pir in this manner it seems that status of Pir is more than that of a Prophet but on other hand in Ginan Momin Cheetamni it is that Pir Shams Said I am Prophet's slave.

shamsu · Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Posts: 646

Prophet is higher than Pir.

kandani · Joined: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 238

There were 124,000 Prophets...

Not all of them were Pir though.

i think Pir is higher than Prophet.

Piratan is an exalted station - the station of the Light of Muhammad - which is the Universal Soul.

Only select Prophets from the lineage of Abraham were also Pir.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Joined: 21 Jan 2004 Posts: 179

I think Prophet and Pir are the same

maybe Prophet is slightly more elevated than the Pir

shamsu · Joined: 15 Apr 2003 Posts: 646

I was just thinking, are we comparing apples to oranges.

prophets existed before the revelation of the manifest Nur.

Piratan started after the revelation.

Are they 2 sides of the same coin?

kmaherali · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 9913

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Based upon the above verses of the Ginans: "Sab Ghat Sami Maro Bharpur Betha" and "Anant Akhado", I would say that they are of the same light - the light of Gur Bhrama.

Essentially it is the light of Piratan which may perform different roles. Sometimes it performs the role of a Prophet, at other times it is restricted to preaching SatPanth faith, at other times it is restricted to contemplation and meditation and even at times it is an infant!

An interesting anectdote from Alwaez Haji's "Noor en Ala Noor"

"When Pir Shabuddin Shah passed away from this material world in 1883, his father Mowlana Shah Aga Alishah, our 47th Imam, appointed Pir Shahbuddin Shah's son, Abul Hassan Shah as the Pir. Abul Hassan Shah was only six months old at the time. Every Saturday, before Jamath used to visit the Pir for DastBoshi, he was being officially requested in advance by our leaders and announcements made in Jamat Khana. Pir Abul Hassan Shah used to give a smile, and for Dastboshi stretch out his hand from the cradle to Jamati members"

kasamali · Joined: 30 Dec 2003 Posts: 113

Exoteric interpretation of the scriptures reveals that each of the prophets received divine revealation through the angel Gebrael. Though esoteric interpretation differs slightly, it too suggests that none of the prophets received direct revealation from the God ( Imam).
The main function of each prphet was to convey to the masses the divine (shariati) revealations such as -- oneness of God, code of conducts in worldly and outer form of religious matters, and insinuation of the prophet to follow. So none of the Arabian prophets except prophet Muhammed ( PM) really knew about the physical presence of the Imam � the physical form of light of God of his time.
PM was awarded prophetship at the age of 40, but still he did not achieved the highest status in spirituality until few years later in the form of Mairaj, the Noorani Deedar of the God. PM possesed dual distinction of both prophetship and Piratanship. Besides this, he also has the unique distinction of introducing(declaring) the Imamat of Ali. That is why he is regarded as the leader and seal of all the prophets.
Thus we can see that merely awarding of prophetship does not necessarily mean the attainment of highest spiritual stage.
On the other hand, as per Pandiate Jawa(n)mardi ( the Farmans of Imam Mustansir Billah-II) :

kandani · Joined: 18 Jun 2003 Posts: 238

I think more than Prophet Muhammad and Prophet Abraham were awared the Piratan.

The 6 Natiqs - Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad reached the status of Piratan.

The case of Moses is recorded in the Quran. The case of Jesus is talked about in Imam SMS farman. The case of Muhammad was in Miraj. Case of Abraham is also in the Quran.

In addition, some of the minor Prophets were awarded Piratan.

For example, Prophet Enoch was awarded Piratan station (this is in the Quran).

After Prophet Abraham, Prophet Isaac became the Imam Mustawda/Pir and Prophet Jacob and Prophet Joseph succeeded him in this.

Also...Prophet Joshua who succeeded Prophet Moses was a Pir/Imam Mustawda according to Shia sources. He was the outward leader of the Israelite Community while the Imam (Haroon's son Eleazar) was in young age.

The successors of Joshua and some of the Judges were probably also at the level of Piratan because they were the spiritual leaders of the Bani Isreal.

Another case....Prophet Jesus succeeded Prophet John in the Piratan.

James, the brother of Jesus, most likely suceeded Prophet Jesus in the Piratan.

This Piratan found its way to Monk Bahira before reverting to the Imam Abu Talib and being delegated to Prophet Muhammad.

In each time, there is always Pir and Imam present. Sometimes in one person, sometimes in two.

curious2 · Joined: 05 May 2005 Posts: 142

Some questions :

Q: After PM when he revealed Ali's Imamat, who was the first Pir and where can I see reference on later Pirs during the history of Imams.

Q: Is Hazir Imam the only Imam who holds Pir/Imam designation?

Q: Can I see reference from Qur'an on this concept of Pir.

kmaherali · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 9913

star_munir · Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 1600

Regarding Quranic Verse about Pir or Imam Mustwada.
From:
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/myflag/16appendixc.html

The two terms, mustaqar Imam and mustawda Imam, are in application in the Ismaili theories to denote the types of the Imam, which have come from the following Koranic verse:-

"It is He Who produced (ansha'a) you from one living soul, and then (there is) a lodging place (mustaqar), and then a repository (mustawda). Indeed, We made plain the signs for a people who understand" (6:9

kmaherali · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 9913

I came across a post in another forum in which it was stated that MHI referred to Nasir Khusraw as Sayyidna Pir Nasr Khusraw although he was not from the "ahl-e-bayt". This to me sounds OK because others have also been appointed Pir posthumously. For example, Pir Subzali. However during the time of Nasir Khusraw the Peer was Peer Satgur Noor.

We need to appreciate the diversity of traditions within our faith. I think Nasr Khusraw and Ginanic traditions are distinct although they have the Imam as a common factor. If Hujjat is as essential as the Peer, than who was the Hujjat after Nasr Khusraw. This is not to undermine Nasir Khusraws work which I feel has powerful and inspiring philosophy expressed both in prose and poetry. It is merely to underline that there is a difference between the two approaches particularly with reference to the concept of Imamat.

At present there might be a need to blend the two approaches with metaphysical correspondence between Pir and Hujjat, but historically they have evolved separately and have their own strengths and can be applied in different circumstances to serve the cause of the evolution of our faith in diverse situations.

s786 · Joined: 10 Apr 2005 Posts: 91

Are you suggesting now that the Pir does not have to be from "ahl-e-bayt"?

kmaherali · Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 9913

s786 · Joined: 10 Apr 2005 Posts: 91

Perhaps the world "Pir" here is different from the Pir that comes from "Ahl-e-Bayt". I would think so.

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