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Imam and Imamat
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:
In fact in one of the Farmans the Imam says the Ayats of the Quran are there for all but their meaning is there only for our Jamat.
This Farman says it all, nothing further needs to be said.


A man is born free but under Heritage rules is under restrictions.
O.K no batin. Batin is staying in batan. But taking a line of Farman out of context is not appreciable. Please mention when and where this Farman was made? Is this Farman available in any Farman book like KIZ?
Who will explain the REAL inner meaning of Quran, is that Kmaherali, Admin, Mukhi, or Missionary?
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Nuseri



Joined: 15 Mar 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
Meaning of surah iklas was twice explained by me in this forum ,pls search it.
Rasikun fi ilm are mentioned are those in Quran ,they are 313 living souls on Earth in different religion today.
imam/Ali/ Allah / God is much much above them .
Imam by default can play that role as Pir.
Imam SMS has ordered that to know essence of Ayats in Quran to read & Understand Spiritual ginan of Pir Sadarddin and masnavi of Rumi.
Selection of both are part of prayers in JK daily.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
But taking a line of Farman out of context is not appreciable. Please mention when and where this Farman was made? Is this Farman available in any Farman book like KIZ?
This is a published Farman:

I have told you on many an occasion how important it is that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should understand their meaning. It is important that if you recite or know parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain their meaning. Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. And it is important, therefore, that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts.(Mumbai, Nov 22, 1967)
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Who will explain the REAL inner meaning of Quran, is that Kmaherali, Admin, Mukhi, or Missionary?
As MSMS has told us that the tafsir of the Quran is in the Ginans.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Who will explain the REAL inner meaning of Quran, is that Kmaherali, Admin, Mukhi, or Missionary?
As MSMS has told us that the tafsir of the Quran is in the Ginans.


In this Farman MSMS mentioned Tafseer of Quran. There is difference in Tafseer and Ta'weel.
Tafseer is ' Paraphrasing, commentary, explanation of words and Ayats '. Tafseer is for general public to explain Huququllah and Huququl Ibaad including ethical values.

Ta'weel is ' Return to its original meaning '. Ta'weel is for special and specific persons who have higher religious IQ.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
But taking a line of Farman out of context is not appreciable. Please mention when and where this Farman was made? Is this Farman available in any Farman book like KIZ?
This is a published Farman:

I have told you on many an occasion how important it is that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should understand their meaning. It is important that if you recite or know parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain their meaning. Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. And it is important, therefore, that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts.(Mumbai, Nov 22, 1967)


This Farman was made at a religious gathering of RC students, parents, teachers and office bearers. Let us understand what Farman says.
1. Imam emphasized to learn Quran and its meaning, guidance for students, teachers, parents and jamaits.

2. Imam said; when you recite Quran you should be able to explain the meaning, this is specially for higher class students, teachers, and missionaries.

3. Esoterically words of Quran are there but its esoteric meaning is not there.
( when esoteric meaning is not there who will teach the inner meaning?)

4. If you learn parts of Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning. Means Imam left the door of esoteric meaning wide open for every one to explain (students or jamaits) according to their religious IQ. This will be havoc, every one should come up with his/her esoteric explanation and that will divide the jamaits.
Therefore it is ONLY Imam who will give and explain the REAL ESOTERIC meaning of Quran which will be acceptable to all jamaits.
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Nuseri



Joined: 15 Mar 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
During time of Imam SMS many clever Ismailis who eventually spilit into Itnashari section among Khoja.
They were mocking at our baatin concept of faith/ Ginans etc and trying demoralize faithful Ismailis.
Zahiri can have upper hand in a debate as Baatin is inner belief and conviction unseen and understood by low faith persons.
IN this context a farman was made to ignore those mocking Baatin aspect of Ismailis.
Such was the anger ,that their soul status we're compared to animals in thier living lives.They would have become one after thier death and words of ALI never ever go in Vain.
All recognized Pir ,Dai ,Syeds were/are Raskinfi Ilm ,they are mentioned as THOSE in Quran ( plural mean many and not single entity .
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Tafseer is ' Paraphrasing, commentary, explanation of words and Ayats '. Tafseer is for general public to explain Huququllah and Huququl Ibaad including ethical values.

Ta'weel is ' Return to its original meaning '. Ta'weel is for special and specific persons who have higher religious IQ.
Sorry the actual Farman of MSMS as translated into English, uses the word quintessence. The Ginans are the quintessence of the Qur'an. Which implies they are both the tafseer and the ta'wil.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Therefore it is ONLY Imam who will give and explain the REAL ESOTERIC meaning of Quran which will be acceptable to all jamaits.
In his 60 years of Imamat, the Imam has not given any esoteric meaning of the Qu'ran. Of course his Farmans and Ginans are considered the quintessence of the Qur'an.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Tafseer is ' Paraphrasing, commentary, explanation of words and Ayats '. Tafseer is for general public to explain Huququllah and Huququl Ibaad including ethical values.

Ta'weel is ' Return to its original meaning '. Ta'weel is for special and specific persons who have higher religious IQ.
Sorry the actual Farman of MSMS as translated into English, uses the word quintessence. The Ginans are the quintessence of the Qur'an. Which implies they are both the tafseer and the ta'wil.


Why are you bending on misguiding. The word QUINTESSENCE is not used in the said Farman of Mumbai dated 22 November, 1967. I have copy of Farman book named PRECIOUS GEMS VOLUME I printed by Ismailia Association Canada and the word quintessence is not mentioned there.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Therefore it is ONLY Imam who will give and explain the REAL ESOTERIC meaning of Quran which will be acceptable to all jamaits.
In his 60 years of Imamat, the Imam has not given any esoteric meaning of the Qu'ran. Of course his Farmans and Ginans are considered the quintessence of the Qur'an.


The Farman you quoted made at Mumbai dated 22 November, 1967, Imam talked about learning Quran and its meaning and he did not talked about Farmans or Ginans.

You admitted," In his 60 years of Imamat, the Imam has not given any esoteric meaning of Quran". WHAT FURTHER CAN I SAY!!!!!!!!!!
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The words RASIKHUNA FIL ILM are used in Surah AAL E IMRAN AYAT 7.
Regarding the words "Rasikhuna fil Ilm", Imam Ja'far Sadiq said," NAHNU RASIKHUNA FIL ILM" means we (Imams) are Rasikhuna fil Ilm. In Ismaili Tariqa only Imam can give and explain real inner meaning of Quran not any Dai or Danishwar.
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Nuseri



Joined: 15 Mar 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
Imam is the sole owner and author of Quran and not a day to day teacher of it.
Ali is Bolta Quran fo us we have his ongoing farman which are MORE VALID than Ayats of 1400 years old printed in Arabic
Materials of Rasilkfi Lim are valid intreptation of quran.
Till recent ginan of Imam begum (200 years back )were given spirituali status.
So rasikun fi Lim is not one a single sole Imam bur blessed man n women inspired by ALI.
The author has designated that person to know deeper understanding to other class are Raskinfi ilm..
They do exist is all religions to tell truth.

We have Alwaez to intrepet farmans and spiritualal material of faith and Ayats as well.
Sadly they are not upto the Mark or they are in restaining mode to open out.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Why are you bending on misguiding. The word QUINTESSENCE is not used in the said Farman of Mumbai dated 22 November, 1967. I have copy of Farman book named PRECIOUS GEMS VOLUME I printed by Ismailia Association Canada and the word quintessence is not mentioned there.
The word quintessence is used in the Farman made by MSMS about the importance of Ginans. It is not in the 1967 Farman
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

You admitted," In his 60 years of Imamat, the Imam has not given any esoteric meaning of Quran". WHAT FURTHER CAN I SAY!!!!!!!!!!
That means that the Imam is not the only means of getting the esoteric meaning. There are other means such as the Farmans and Ginans and the use of intellect.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Why are you bending on misguiding. The word QUINTESSENCE is not used in the said Farman of Mumbai dated 22 November, 1967. I have copy of Farman book named PRECIOUS GEMS VOLUME I printed by Ismailia Association Canada and the word quintessence is not mentioned there.
The word quintessence is used in the Farman made by MSMS about the importance of Ginans. It is not in the 1967 Farman


No doubt there is spiritualism in Ginans but you gave reference of Hazar Imam making Farman on learning Quran and its meaning. You did not mentioned quintessence of Ginans in that post.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

You admitted," In his 60 years of Imamat, the Imam has not given any esoteric meaning of Quran". WHAT FURTHER CAN I SAY!!!!!!!!!!
That means that the Imam is not the only means of getting the esoteric meaning. There are other means such as the Farmans and Ginans and the use of intellect.



You are wrong in your interpretation, your words are," The Imam is not the only means of getting esoteric meaning ". In our Tariqah only Imam can give Real interpretation, you have mentioned this in your posts. Let me give reference from Preamble;
• That Hazrat Ali (AS) would continue the Tawil and Talim of Allah’s final
message to guide the murids.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali Madad:
Imam is the sole owner and author of Quran and not a day to day teacher of it.
Ali is Bolta Quran fo us we have his ongoing farman which are MORE VALID than Ayats of 1400 years old printed in Arabic
Materials of Rasilkfi Lim are valid intreptation of quran.
Till recent ginan of Imam begum (200 years back )were given spirituali status.
So rasikun fi Lim is not one a single sole Imam bur blessed man n women inspired by ALI.
The author has designated that person to know deeper understanding to other class are Raskinfi ilm..
They do exist is all religions to tell truth.

We have Alwaez to intrepet farmans and spiritualal material of faith and Ayats as well.
Sadly they are not upto the Mark or they are in restaining mode to open out.


This statement that,"Imam is the sole owner and author of Quran" is BLASPHEMOUS and there are repercussions of it.
His state of mind is, in one breath he wrote," Imam is author of Quran " and in second breath he gives Fatwah that 1400 old Quran is not valid, it means old Farmans are not valid.

Imam Ja'far Sadiq said, We (Imams) are Rasikhun fil Ilm, the REAL interpretation of Quran will come from Imam and not missionaries.

Preamble given by Imam clearly says,"That Hazrat Ali would continue the Tawil and Talim of Allah’s final message to guide the murids".

Imam Begum's Ginans have nothing to do with interpretation of Quran.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5982

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen enough of threats on this board. The first person who use Blasphemy here will be kicked out faster than it takes to say sorry. You are not in one of the backward country here where you can go around threatening people. You have been reinstated twice, you will not be three times. Be assure, when you are gone from here, it will be without a return ticket.
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Nuseri



Joined: 15 Mar 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
The abcd of blessed Raskinfi ilm starts with ALI + lah = Allah (1+0=1).even the figure zero is not intoduced to nursery student in formal education.
Simple key to inner meaning.
So all ayat relates to ALI for glory, fear,etc from the word GO.
even the word of Hujjat & Rasikun fi ilm are for third persons ( male & females) below Allah defined for thier roles and ability.

Bcoz our is Sufi / Esoteric tariqa.

True momim can get didar of MHI by opening the first page of Holy book showing image of LIVE smiling face ,so one know he is blessed to go forward on reading it.
I felt this when I was just 12 years old.
You do NOT need any conviction and any material from external sources to be sure again of ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
HE BLESSES WITH HIS NOOR TO WHOM HE WISHES.
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Nuseri



Joined: 15 Mar 2018
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad:
Cunning and ignorant reading of my post.
I have used the word MORE VALID today than of 1400 years back.NO word of Not valid is used.
Opposite of more in simple English is LESS And not None/Not.
This non Ismaili is distorting the words ,
Same like tagging more words to look like a statement of Imam jaffer Sadiq ,which were never recorded and adding the word jamat in the end.
This anti Ismaili cheating & stupidity is there in almost all the post,, I read and observe IMMDIEATLY but ignore it.Assuming Admin will do a good job.
Failure is there also,So the stink stays in the forum till discarded
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
[
You are wrong in your interpretation, your words are," The Imam is not the only means of getting esoteric meaning ". In our Tariqah only Imam can give Real interpretation, you have mentioned this in your posts. Let me give reference from Preamble;
• That Hazrat Ali (AS) would continue the Tawil and Talim of Allah’s final
message to guide the murids.
I meant the Imam is not the only direct means of esoteric meaning. Of course through Farmans and Ginans (which you decided to ignore) he gives the esoteric meaning.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
[
You are wrong in your interpretation, your words are," The Imam is not the only means of getting esoteric meaning ". In our Tariqah only Imam can give Real interpretation, you have mentioned this in your posts. Let me give reference from Preamble;
• That Hazrat Ali (AS) would continue the Tawil and Talim of Allah’s final
message to guide the murids.
I meant the Imam is not the only direct means of esoteric meaning. Of course through Farmans and Ginans (which you decided to ignore) he gives the esoteric meaning.


But you admitted in one of your post that," Imam during his 60 years of Imamat has not given esoteric meaning of Quran". I believe Imam's Farmans never go beyond the jurisdiction of Quran.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

But you admitted in one of your post that," Imam during his 60 years of Imamat has not given esoteric meaning of Quran".
So what is your point? Haven't I said that the esoteric meaning is in the Farmans and Ginans and also the works of Ismaili Dais?
shivaathervedi wrote:

I believe Imam's Farmans never go beyond the jurisdiction of Quran.
Then you are restricting the faith to the context of the Qur'an. What about many modern day issues that the Imam has given guidance on in his Farmans? Creation is continuous and new issues arise in different contexts. That is the reason for having the Living Imam.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20271

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

But you admitted in one of your post that," Imam during his 60 years of Imamat has not given esoteric meaning of Quran".
So what is your point? Haven't I said that the esoteric meaning is in the Farmans and Ginans and also the works of Ismaili Dais?
shivaathervedi wrote:

I believe Imam's Farmans never go beyond the jurisdiction of Quran.
Then you are restricting the faith to the context of the Qur'an. What about many modern day issues that the Imam has given guidance on in his Farmans? Creation is continuous and new issues arise in different contexts. That is the reason for having the Living Imam.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5982

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1965, September 26: Mowlana Shah Karim gave an interview entitled "The Dilemma that faces the Ismailis" to Nicholas Tomalin.

Question “Am I right that the Ismaili Faith is an esoteric one, that's to say, only real scholars and experts have read all the crucial texts that enable them to understand the inner nature of your religion?

Reply by AK “Yes, this is so."

http://ismaili.net/intervue/650926.html
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the same interview when Mr. Tomalin asked Hazar Imam;

Do you feel you've made any mistakes?

" Yes, of course I have."

Do you regret any?

"One is bound to regret mistakes. They have definitely caused damage and one can only hope to put them right. One makes mistakes unknowingly, because one has been ill-advised, because of hasty decisions, because of bad judgment - there are many reasons."
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 354

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

But you admitted in one of your post that," Imam during his 60 years of Imamat has not given esoteric meaning of Quran".
So what is your point? Haven't I said that the esoteric meaning is in the Farmans and Ginans and also the works of Ismaili Dais?
shivaathervedi wrote:

I believe Imam's Farmans never go beyond the jurisdiction of Quran.
Then you are restricting the faith to the context of the Qur'an. What about many modern day issues that the Imam has given guidance on in his Farmans? Creation is continuous and new issues arise in different contexts. That is the reason for having the Living Imam.


I answered your post but for some reason Admin deleted that post may be in haste;
1. No doubt there is esoteric meaning in many Farmans and Ginans, these explain and interpret Quranic Ayats, that's why I wrote in our Tariqah it is the prerogative of Imam to give real Ta'weel of Quran. Many Ismaili Dais have written on esoteric explanations and these varying interpretations which common Ismailis hardly understand. How Many in our jamaits understand the Ta'weel of Nasir Khusraw in his book Wajhu Din.

2. Quran is foundation on which tall building of Islam rests. Quran is a book of principles, Kuliyaat, and laws, and Imam makes Farmans by keeping the spirit of Quran and solve the issues in context of Quran, and I believe he never goes beyond the principles and jurisdiction of Quran.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Al Kirmani the famous Ismail Dai of Fatimid era was against Druze ideology believing Imam as God.
In "Ismaili heroes" it is mentioned about him:
"In Egypt Kirmani wrote a number of Risalas in which he explained the fundamental principles of the Ismaili Da'wa and particularly the position of Imamat and its relations to divinity. In one of his Risalas known as Mabasim al-Bisharat, he emphasised that al-Hakim like any previous Imams was divinely appointed and guided but not of himself divine."
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ISMAILIGNOSIS WROTE:

Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni Aga Khan IV is the 49th hereditary Imam of the Shi‘i Ismaili Muslims. By defining himself as the hereditary Imam of the Ismailis, Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni claims the following roles and status:

• the holder of a divinely-ordained leadership office, called the Imamat, which succeeds to the spiritual and moral authority of the Prophet Muhammad.
• responsible for providing an infallible interpretation of Islam with respect to any time/context of human history and with respect to the esoteric meaning of the Revelation.
• the spiritual intercessor/intermediary between humanity and God with respect to divine guidance, authority, blessings and purification.
• the direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad through an unbroken line of descent going back to Imam ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib (the paternal cousin and son-in-law of Muhammad) and the Prophet’s daughter Hazrat Fatimah al-Zahra.
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