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Imam and Imamat
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 6120

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please stop misleading people about Imam asking us to return copies of Farmans of the past Imams.

On the contrary each Imam has confirmed the Farmans of the past Imams in so far as they are not updated by a Farman of the present Imam and our doctrine is that the previous Farman of the present Imam can be changed by the Imam later or for particular group or geograpgical locations.

In Dubai December 2003 Farman, our Imam has asked us to dig out the guidances (Farmans) of the past Imams.

These are the basics of Ismailism. If I see more of these kind of mis-representations, your account will be deleted.


Last edited by Admin on Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be lives SMS era but I definitely not lives in ignorance and darkness like you live! I rather accept other imams farmans rather then accepting Paris conference speech. As per my own thinking no imams has told us not to read other old imams farman! Did they? if yes then please give me date and place where this kind farman were delivere?
Yes SMS told many times that our farmans are changing as per the circumstances [b] but that does not mean older imams farmans are not valid!
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Please stop misleading people about Imam asking us to return copies of Farmans of the past Imams.

On the contrary each Imam has confirmed the Farmans of the past Imams in so far as they are not updated by a Farman of the present Imam and our doctrine is that the previous Farman of the present Imam can be changed by the Imam later or for particular group or geograpgical locations.

These are the basics of Ismailism. If I see more of these kind of mis-representations, your account will be deleted.


Admin: in another forum you stated "Yes true. Mowlana SMS asked in 1945 that the Farmans of Imam Hassanali Shah and Aga Ali Shah be published. That is how many years. Yes it has not been followed and yet another Farman in Dubai in 2003 has superseded that Farman also."

Article 6.2.4 published in the Ismaili Paris Conference has asked all Jamats and individuals to "forward all firmans, whether in manuscript, printed or any other form, of Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah, Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali Shah, and Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, to the Ismaili Association of Pakistan by 31st Dec 1975. These bodies also request individual members of their respective jamats, through suitable announcements, to make available any such material that may be in their possession."

You mentioned another farman in Dubai instructed the same in 2003.

How am I mis-representing anything. These are the facts. If you abuse your authority by deleting my account without providing references about your claims, it will be obvious that you don't have anything further to support your claims and you will also lose your credibility.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your article quoted has been long superseded by the Dubai farman which is asking those docs to be sent to Toronto and not to Ismailia Association (which does not even exist anymore in the new constitution) - Yes your posts will be deleted if I find they abuse the policy of this website.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
Your article quoted has been long superseded by the Dubai farman which is asking those docs to be sent to Toronto and not to Ismailia Association (which does not even exist anymore in the new constitution) - Yes your posts will be deleted if I find they abuse the policy of this website.


So you fail to accept the farman in 1945 by IMAM SMS.

Then you fail to accept the article of paris conference

Then in 2003 you fail to accept the farman of sending it to toronto.

Are you just waiting for MHI, to give a farman which lets you keep it and then say that the new farman has superseded all the prior ones. I like you way of thinking. Totally against my way of thinking. I execute on the farman immediately, not wait until a farman that benefits me is released.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do not have any logic. The Toronto Museum has to come to existence before we can give the documents there. This is supposed to become a reality soon as construction of the building is almost completed.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:

With respect to the Quran, MHI has told us in the constitution that "Quran" is a fundamental to our religion (refer to constitution).


I concur with you, and I believe every Ismaili must understand this. (I think they already do, but I observed some participants who claim, that 'Qur'an is old, Qur'an is outdated, Qur'an is wrong', and yet as they pleased, they make reference to the Qur'an, to make a point) I think they know who they are, no need to name names.
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zznoor



Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
tret

I concur with you, and I believe every Ismaili must understand this. (I think they already do, but I observed some participants who claim, that 'Qur'an is old, Qur'an is outdated, Qur'an is wrong', and yet as they pleased, they make reference to the Qur'an, to make a point) I think they know who they are, no need to name names.


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zznoor



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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

sheri wrote:

With respect to the Quran, MHI has told us in the constitution that "Quran" is a fundamental to our religion (refer to constitution).


Yes Quran is fundamental to Islam. It is only constitution a Muslim needs. Sunna is just a guidance. Any so called Sunna which is contrary to the Quran is to be rejected. One can be modern and model citizen just by abiding to very basic requirement of Islam. It would take maximum of 30 minute to offer required fird Salat. Fast in Ramadan is not external but internal. Nobody can see if you are fasting. Zakat is not a burden. You are only asked to part 2.5% and you choose the needy.

This is essence of Islam. Leave it to Allah to reward in Akihira.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think they know who they are, no need to name names.


Yes, his ID is agakhani, (and he has only one ID not two IDs like you have), who still believes that way which you wrote above Matter of fact you forget one thing ; Quran is contemporary too it say some thing in one ayas and say something different in another ayas on same subject.
so please add this one in your memory so that you can write in future.

Giving references from Quran is necessary because some readers like you does not accept any references from other sources like ginans and farmans!!.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
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Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me and as per the farmans of MSM if I do not understand Quran in Arabic then I should read Ginans because according SMS farmans ginans are "TAFSIR" of Quran. So if I read ginans then I will receive same benefits which I receives reading quran because I do not know the Arabic at all so does Zznoor and,others who considers them selves as quran readers!
The second reasons I give more importance to ginans is that our current imams when he enter his Aglimont office first thing he always does is to turn on the ginans cassettes players and he listen ginans not quranic ayas he does his all routine works listening ginans in low volume ! Is this not surprising information for you then what is this!? I bet you do not know about this! do not believe this then ( if you lucky enough then visit him in his office) and make sure.
The third reason I love ginans is you can find any answers in ginans if you have a question then yes, ginans has its answer, where Quran does not .period. because quran is way old, it is outdated for a long time ago, it is currepted, changed , added some man made ayas and ommited.
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Such a powerful comment. I hope the Satpanthi Ismailis can comprehend this fact.

ITV: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

AK: Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult.
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
Such a powerful comment. I hope the Satpanthi Ismailis can comprehend this fact.

ITV: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

AK: Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult.


So what is the Imam saying absolutely to?
In his response he's not endorsing what ITV is asking.
As a matter of fact - to me - Absolutely implies to Him being thought as a Living God - not to the blasphemy.
He talks about idolatry - idolatry defined - means worship of idols - of stones - of man made objects
What you have failed to see in your intellectual arrogance and that have missed - is that we don't look at the body - hell - we don't even see the body - just the light - the Nur.

We need some Chinese Ismailis on this forum - who would completely uproot all of your pseudo progressive sunni intercessor modes of ismailism with their understanding.

Seriously Sheri - learn some English.
Also if you're an Ismaili - realize that you proclaim Ali is Allah 3x a day in your Du'a - and no - it is not in the second part of Du'a.
And who gave us the Du'a..ah yes..the Imam of the time.

Practice and believe what you want to - don't slam other people's beliefs.

Shams
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sheri



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PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2014 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is in more simple English. I hope you understand the meaning of "A man is not God."

PL: You’re in a traditional costume of your communities. You get on a plane supersonic two hours later you find yourself on a site in Sardinia with a group of entrepreneurs. Psychological adjustment must be difficult? The space of an airplane and the “living God” becomes promoter.

AK: Not at all. Moreover, “living God” is an expression false. A man is not God. You see the Imam with Christian eyes. The Church, to some extent, was held out of life “civil”. Celibacy for priests gives an idea of daily life of their own. The Prophet, himself, had children, he has been at war, he participated in a trade. It was human activity. Since all the imams of human occupation. Our religion is also a way of life. For you, the Church does not assume certain ongoing responsibilities. For us, religion should be involved, have a global sense, far be it from me to want to criticize and judge the Vatican … nor to say that design is superior to another. I seek only to explain that we should not judge life of Imam according to the same basic ideas that govern a Christian religious man, in order that there be no misunderstanding.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not know any Ismaili in the universe who will say a man can be God. Ismailis know that we believe that God is Light and for us that Light does manifest itself in Imam-e-Mubeen. We Ismaili call that Light in our vocabulary "The Noor". We say for example "Noor Mowlana Shah Karim" Obviously the body will die, God and his Light never die.

"Wa Kul Ashayin was sahina hu fi Imam e Mubeen"
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tret



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

Also if you're an Ismaili - realize that you proclaim Ali is Allah 3x a day in your Du'a - and no - it is not in the second part of Du'a.


Can you please reference which part is it?
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sheri



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
I do not know any Ismaili in the universe who will say a man can be God. Ismailis know that we believe that God is Light and for us that Light does manifest itself in Imam-e-Mubeen. We Ismaili call that Light in our vocabulary "The Noor". We say for example "Noor Mowlana Shah Karim" Obviously the body will die, God and his Light never die.

"Wa Kul Ashayin was sahina hu fi Imam e Mubeen"


There is a subtle difference between "God is Light" vs. "Light of God." We believe that the "light of God" is manifested in the IMAM, and a tiny flame is also burning in all humans as told by IMAM SMS below.

"The healthy human body is the temple in which the flame of the Holy Spirit burns, and thus it deserves the respect of scrupulous cleanliness and personal hygiene. Prayer is a daily necessity, a direct communication of the spark with the universal flame… All are the sons of Adam in the flesh and all carry in them a spark of the Divine Light."

However, the manifestation of this light does not make either the IMAM=Allah nor does the "tiny flame" make humans=Allah.
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Admin



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We believe that Imam is the Mazhar of Allah and we can dispute till eternity the meaning of Allah and the meaning of Mazhar.

I suggest you convert to Ismailism and practise what we call bandgi for some time before giving your interpretation of the concept of Mazhar icon_wink.gif
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sheri



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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:
We believe that Imam is the Mazhar of Allah and we can dispute till eternity the meaning of Allah and the meaning of Mazhar.

I suggest you convert to Ismailism and practise what we call bandgi for some time before giving your interpretation of the concept of Mazhar icon_wink.gif


Admin - I respect your individual beliefs, and there may be many ismailis who share your beliefs. However, they are not my beliefs and there are many ismailis who don't share your beliefs. You can think of MHI as Allah. However, please refrain from implying that these are universal Ismaili beliefs. The only time these beliefs will become Ismaili beliefs is when MHI claims as such. He has not done it yet.

Now on bandagi, if the purpose of bandagi is to confirm the fact that Ali=Allah, then what is the point of doing Bandagi. Just believe it without doing bandagi and you are good to go. We do everything in JK as a group, however bandagi is done individually. It is done individually because it is considered a personal search for the higher spheres of spirituality. It is to establish a personal (one-on-one) relationship with Allah. During bandagi each individual may develop a different relationship with Allah. If you go with the preconceived notion that Ali=Allah and keep on thinking about this preconceived notion during bandagi, you may miss the other mysteries of Allah and you may or may not find true happiness in your soul and heart. Let Allah guide you in bandagi, rather than figuring it out from before (Ali=Allah) and then just keeping your mind focused on that. Be free in bandagi and you will surely find the mysteries of Allah with surety and all doubts removed. When you sit in bandagi with Ali=Allah in your mind, you are forcing yourself to believe that concept and you will definitely block all the other great benefits of bandagi and likely you won't find eternal happiness. However, if you open your mind and let Allah determine its destiny, then I can say with certainty that you will find eternal bliss. Please read the farmans of MHI on bait-ul-khayal and you will find what I have described told more eloquently.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
Admin wrote:
We believe that Imam is the Mazhar of Allah and we can dispute till eternity the meaning of Allah and the meaning of Mazhar.

I suggest you convert to Ismailism and practise what we call bandgi for some time before giving your interpretation of the concept of Mazhar icon_wink.gif


Admin - I respect your individual beliefs, and there may be many ismailis who share your beliefs. However, they are not my beliefs and there are many ismailis who don't share your beliefs. You can think of MHI as Allah. However, please refrain from implying that these are universal Ismaili beliefs. The only time these beliefs will become Ismaili beliefs is when MHI claims as such. He has not done it yet.

Now on bandagi, if the purpose of bandagi is to confirm the fact that Ali=Allah, then what is the point of doing Bandagi. Just believe it without doing bandagi and you are good to go. We do everything in JK as a group, however bandagi is done individually. It is done individually because it is considered a personal search for the higher spheres of spirituality. It is to establish a personal (one-on-one) relationship with Allah. During bandagi each individual may develop a different relationship with Allah. If you go with the preconceived notion that Ali=Allah and keep on thinking about this preconceived notion during bandagi, you may miss the other mysteries of Allah and you may or may not find true happiness in your soul and heart. Let Allah guide you in bandagi, rather than figuring it out from before (Ali=Allah) and then just keeping your mind focused on that. Be free in bandagi and you will surely find the mysteries of Allah with surety and all doubts removed. When you sit in bandagi with Ali=Allah in your mind, you are forcing yourself to believe that concept and you will definitely block all the other great benefits of bandagi and likely you won't find eternal happiness. However, if you open your mind and let Allah determine its destiny, then I can say with certainty that you will find eternal bliss. Please read the farmans of MHI on bait-ul-khayal and you will find what I have described told more eloquently.


Sheri,

You do the same thing that you accuse Admin of doing - trying to display intellectual arrogance and shove your beliefs down other peoples throats.

You posted an interview quote of Hazar Imam - with your explanation - I proved that even in that one phrase - there were many interpretations.

As per the farmans of Bait-ul-Khayal - we've read them and have a different understanding.

The same with our Current Du'a - where 3x a day - you say Ali is Allah - and no it's not in the 2nd part.
Go study our Du'a.

There is a farman of Hazar Imam - where He clearly states that He doesn't just want us to memorize our Du'a but understand the meaning of it. Seems like you didn't read that farman or aren't following it.

Shams
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

Sheri,

You do the same thing that you accuse Admin of doing - trying to display intellectual arrogance and shove your beliefs down other peoples throats.

You posted an interview quote of Hazar Imam - with your explanation - I proved that even in that one phrase - there were many interpretations.

As per the farmans of Bait-ul-Khayal - we've read them and have a different understanding.

The same with our Current Du'a - where 3x a day - you say Ali is Allah - and no it's not in the 2nd part.
Go study our Du'a.

There is a farman of Hazar Imam - where He clearly states that He doesn't just want us to memorize our Du'a but understand the meaning of it. Seems like you didn't read that farman or aren't following it.

Shams


Shams - I keep on giving you different references that deny Ali=Allah and you just say "its in the dua, its in the farman, it in the asal dua." hahahaha this is getting old buddy. I have read the asal dua, dua meanings and farmans back to back and there is no Ali=Allah concept in Ismailism. Sorry, but you guys are really losing this debate as not a single reference has been provided by you and your supporters for the past 3 weeks we are having this debate. If no reference if provide by you and the supporters in the next post then I will consider this discussion futile.
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ShamsB



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
ShamsB wrote:

Sheri,

You do the same thing that you accuse Admin of doing - trying to display intellectual arrogance and shove your beliefs down other peoples throats.

You posted an interview quote of Hazar Imam - with your explanation - I proved that even in that one phrase - there were many interpretations.

As per the farmans of Bait-ul-Khayal - we've read them and have a different understanding.

The same with our Current Du'a - where 3x a day - you say Ali is Allah - and no it's not in the 2nd part.
Go study our Du'a.

There is a farman of Hazar Imam - where He clearly states that He doesn't just want us to memorize our Du'a but understand the meaning of it. Seems like you didn't read that farman or aren't following it.

Shams


Shams - I keep on giving you different references that deny Ali=Allah and you just say "its in the dua, its in the farman, it in the asal dua." hahahaha this is getting old buddy. I have read the asal dua, dua meanings and farmans back to back and there is no Ali=Allah concept in Ismailism. Sorry, but you guys are really losing this debate as not a single reference has been provided by you and your supporters for the past 3 weeks we are having this debate. If no reference if provide by you and the supporters in the next post then I will consider this discussion futile.


and we've given you references that Ali is Allah - but you have blinders on.
You refuse to do research and want things handed to you on a platter.

Go read the Du'a and you'll get your answer.

You claimed that the Old Du'a had no reference to Ali-Allah - yet it is full of it.
The word Ali Sahi Allah is all over the old Du'a. Have you actually done the research or are just spouting off sunnism again?
Are you one of those pseudosunni ismailies that is all about trying to prove that their version of ismailism is correct?

I have told you where to look - now if you are blind and can't see - then this discussion is futile and maybe you better leave now.

Shams
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sheri



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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shams, why are you so scared to provide a reference. Be a man and prove yourself right. You have been so badly brainwashed with this Ali=Vishnu=Allah concept that whatever you read, all you do it relate it to the Ali=Allah concept. Since, you lack the intellect and the kindness to give references, I will be the bigger man and give you references from the dua that refute the aspect of Ali = Allah. Here you go:

First part:
O Allah, let Thy peace be on Muhammad - the
Chosen, and on 'Aly - the favourite, and on the Imams -
the pure, and on the evidence of Thy Authority - the
Lord of the age and the time, our present living Imam,
our Lord Shah Karim al-Husayni.

In this statement we are asking Allah to have "peace" on Ali and the IMAM. Why would we ask Allah to have peace on Aly if Allah = Aly.

Second Part (Kalma):
There is no deity except Allah, Muhammad is the
Messenger of Allah, 'Aly - the master of believers is
from Allah.

This statement clearly distinguishes that Allah is supreme. And "Aly is from Allah." We are all from Allah, but Aly is more closer and dearer to Allah than any other man or women on earth.

Third Part:
There is no deity except Allah. the Lord of the Day
of Judgment:

There is no hero except 'Aly. there is no sword
except (his sword) 'Zulfiqar'

These two statements confirm that Allah is the only deity. Otherwise, we would have used for the second statement "there is no deity except Aly....." Instead, "hero" has been used to signify the separation between Allah and Aly.

Fourth Part:
O Allah, forgive us our sins, and give us our bread,
and have mercy upon us, in the name of Thy closest
Messengers and Thy holy Imams, and in the name of
our Lord and our Imam, Shah Karim al-Husayni.

In this statement we are asking Allah that for the sake of the Prophet and Imams have mercy on us and give us your support. Therefore, Allah is separate from Muhammad and Aly.

Fifth Part:
O Imam of the time, O our Lord, Thou art my
strength and Thou art my support and on Thee I rely.
O present O living, O Shah Karim al-Husayni, Thou art
the true manifest Imam

In this statement it is that MHI is the true manifest IMAM. It does not say that IMAM is the manifestation of God. There is no place in the dua that says IMAM is the manifestation of God.

Part Sixth:
O Allah, in the name of Muhammad - the chosen,
and Aly - the favorite, and Fatima - the radiant, and
(Hazrat) Hasan, and (Imam) Husayn.

Again, in this statement we are seeking Allah's mercy "in the name of Panj tun Pak." If Ali = Allah= Hussein, then we have 3 Allah's based on this statement.

You keep on digging your grave deeper and deeper. You may have come across a lot of Hindu converts who have no idea of the Ismaili religion. And you can shove your opinions down their throats and push them against ismailism. This time Shams brother you are not dealing with one of the uneducated ismaili Hindu converts. I have proved to you again and again with references that there is NO concept in ismailism about Aly=Allah.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
Shams, why are you so scared to provide a reference. Be a man and prove yourself right. You have been so badly brainwashed with this Ali=Vishnu=Allah concept that whatever you read, all you do it relate it to the Ali=Allah concept. Since, you lack the intellect and the kindness to give references, I will be the bigger man and give you references from the dua that refute the aspect of Ali = Allah. Here you go:

First part:
O Allah, let Thy peace be on Muhammad - the
Chosen, and on 'Aly - the favourite, and on the Imams -
the pure, and on the evidence of Thy Authority - the
Lord of the age and the time, our present living Imam,
our Lord Shah Karim al-Husayni.

In this statement we are asking Allah to have "peace" on Ali and the IMAM. Why would we ask Allah to have peace on Aly if Allah = Aly.

Second Part (Kalma):
There is no deity except Allah, Muhammad is the
Messenger of Allah, 'Aly - the master of believers is
from Allah.

This statement clearly distinguishes that Allah is supreme. And "Aly is from Allah." We are all from Allah, but Aly is more closer and dearer to Allah than any other man or women on earth.

Third Part:
There is no deity except Allah. the Lord of the Day
of Judgment:

There is no hero except 'Aly. there is no sword
except (his sword) 'Zulfiqar'

These two statements confirm that Allah is the only deity. Otherwise, we would have used for the second statement "there is no deity except Aly....." Instead, "hero" has been used to signify the separation between Allah and Aly.

Fourth Part:
O Allah, forgive us our sins, and give us our bread,
and have mercy upon us, in the name of Thy closest
Messengers and Thy holy Imams, and in the name of
our Lord and our Imam, Shah Karim al-Husayni.

In this statement we are asking Allah that for the sake of the Prophet and Imams have mercy on us and give us your support. Therefore, Allah is separate from Muhammad and Aly.

Fifth Part:
O Imam of the time, O our Lord, Thou art my
strength and Thou art my support and on Thee I rely.
O present O living, O Shah Karim al-Husayni, Thou art
the true manifest Imam

In this statement it is that MHI is the true manifest IMAM. It does not say that IMAM is the manifestation of God. There is no place in the dua that says IMAM is the manifestation of God.

Part Sixth:
O Allah, in the name of Muhammad - the chosen,
and Aly - the favorite, and Fatima - the radiant, and
(Hazrat) Hasan, and (Imam) Husayn.

Again, in this statement we are seeking Allah's mercy "in the name of Panj tun Pak." If Ali = Allah= Hussein, then we have 3 Allah's based on this statement.

You keep on digging your grave deeper and deeper. You may have come across a lot of Hindu converts who have no idea of the Ismaili religion. And you can shove your opinions down their throats and push them against ismailism. This time Shams brother you are not dealing with one of the uneducated ismaili Hindu converts. I have proved to you again and again with references that there is NO concept in ismailism about Aly=Allah.


What are you afraid of?

Admitting that Islam preexisted prior to the Saudi Arab state? and prior to Pakistan?

Come on - read the Quran

Once again - the answer is in the Du'a that you recite 3x a day!

You ask for references - Allah in the Quran says - bring Faith upon the Unseen, the unfelt - you ask for proof?

Leap of faith - one needs a leap of faith.

It is okay for you to admit that you can't understand our ismailism - and don't accept it - but last time I checked - you weren't the Imam - so you can't issue a fatwa.

And you are brainwashed - but by the other side.

Follow your faith - and let us follow ours.

You don't have the faith nor the brainpower to comprehend it - because you have put your foot in your mouth by proclaiming that there is no mention of Ali-Allah in the old Du'a (and btw it is spelt ALI not ALY) when the old Du'a is full of not only references to Ali - Allah but also to Imams prior to Ali - btw - this isn't a Hindu concept - but a key Shi'a theology - go read el-hilli - who is the main Shi'a Jurist.
Go read Tusi's paradise of submission- which is not an indian text
go read Ivanow's tranlsations of Nasir Khusraw - on the recognition of the Imam - that is on ismaili.net
Go read Hittie's book - where he has direct quote of Imam Hakim talking about being the 10th reincarnation
The Quran itself - Allah swears by the 10 nights - FYI - in Arabic culture and in Islamic Culture - night comes first- day comes later.

Just by standing on the roof tops and screaming - that the world is flat - isn't going to make it flat - or screaming that it is the center of the universe doesn't make it so.
Admit you can't understand us - and move on. We have no urge to convert you or to prove to you.
As the Imam and your own friend Tret will admit - there is plurality in our faith - yet like the Taliban or Wahhabis who have brainwashed you - you seem to want to whitewash us out of existence.
Keep in mind that there are many farmans and hidayahs which are not meant for public consumption and way out of reach for the likes of you.

As agakhani suggested - go track down the farmans of Imams Hassanali Shah, Aga Ali Shah and even the Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - but I doubt if they will do you any good because you will be reading not to learn but to refute.

Hazrat Ali said and I am paraphrasing - are you listening to respond? or listening to listen and learn?

You are listening to respond - versus trying to learn.
Be happy in your search - and let us be in ours.

Shams
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
Shams, why are you so scared to provide a reference. Be a man and prove yourself right. You have been so badly brainwashed with this Ali=Vishnu=Allah concept that whatever you read, all you do it relate it to the Ali=Allah concept. Since, you lack the intellect and the kindness to give references, I will be the bigger man and give you references from the dua that refute the aspect of Ali = Allah. Here you go:

First part:
O Allah, let Thy peace be on Muhammad - the
Chosen, and on 'Aly - the favourite, and on the Imams -
the pure, and on the evidence of Thy Authority - the
Lord of the age and the time, our present living Imam,
our Lord Shah Karim al-Husayni.

In this statement we are asking Allah to have "peace" on Ali and the IMAM. Why would we ask Allah to have peace on Aly if Allah = Aly.

Second Part (Kalma):
There is no deity except Allah, Muhammad is the
Messenger of Allah, 'Aly - the master of believers is
from Allah.

This statement clearly distinguishes that Allah is supreme. And "Aly is from Allah." We are all from Allah, but Aly is more closer and dearer to Allah than any other man or women on earth.

Third Part:
There is no deity except Allah. the Lord of the Day
of Judgment:

There is no hero except 'Aly. there is no sword
except (his sword) 'Zulfiqar'

These two statements confirm that Allah is the only deity. Otherwise, we would have used for the second statement "there is no deity except Aly....." Instead, "hero" has been used to signify the separation between Allah and Aly.

Fourth Part:
O Allah, forgive us our sins, and give us our bread,
and have mercy upon us, in the name of Thy closest
Messengers and Thy holy Imams, and in the name of
our Lord and our Imam, Shah Karim al-Husayni.

In this statement we are asking Allah that for the sake of the Prophet and Imams have mercy on us and give us your support. Therefore, Allah is separate from Muhammad and Aly.

Fifth Part:
O Imam of the time, O our Lord, Thou art my
strength and Thou art my support and on Thee I rely.
O present O living, O Shah Karim al-Husayni, Thou art
the true manifest Imam

In this statement it is that MHI is the true manifest IMAM. It does not say that IMAM is the manifestation of God. There is no place in the dua that says IMAM is the manifestation of God.

Part Sixth:
O Allah, in the name of Muhammad - the chosen,
and Aly - the favorite, and Fatima - the radiant, and
(Hazrat) Hasan, and (Imam) Husayn.

Again, in this statement we are seeking Allah's mercy "in the name of Panj tun Pak." If Ali = Allah= Hussein, then we have 3 Allah's based on this statement.

You keep on digging your grave deeper and deeper. You may have come across a lot of Hindu converts who have no idea of the Ismaili religion. And you can shove your opinions down their throats and push them against ismailism. This time Shams brother you are not dealing with one of the uneducated ismaili Hindu converts. I have proved to you again and again with references that there is NO concept in ismailism about Aly=Allah.


You're still missing the point in the Du'a - you're copying and pasting translations - without trying to understand what you're actually saying and whom you're addressing in the Du'a that is.

Shams
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am seeking Allah, and revering the prophet Muhammad and IMAMs. Whereas you just say Ali=Allah, Ali=Allah, Ali=Allah like a brainwashed person without reading the meanings of the Dua.

Still you fail to provide proof. You keep on failing to provide reference. I am feeling sorry for you and your followers. Here is the Old Dua and there is no mention in it of Ali=Allah.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=69&highlight=dua

Stop spreading wrong things about Ismailism. If you interpret things which lead you to believe Ali=Allah, that is great and keep your personal thoughts and beliefs as your opinions. But claiming that it is clearly mentioned in our dua, farmans and not being able to provide a single proof, really leaves your words with no credibility. Sorry shams brother provide references and proof like I have been doing otherwise your words cannot be heeded as they are only your personal beliefs.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sheri wrote:
I am seeking Allah, and revering the prophet Muhammad and IMAMs. Whereas you just say Ali=Allah, Ali=Allah, Ali=Allah like a brainwashed person without reading the meanings of the Dua.

Still you fail to provide proof. You keep on failing to provide reference. I am feeling sorry for you and your followers. Here is the Old Dua and there is no mention in it of Ali=Allah.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=69&highlight=dua

Stop spreading wrong things about Ismailism. If you interpret things which lead you to believe Ali=Allah, that is great and keep your personal thoughts and beliefs as your opinions. But claiming that it is clearly mentioned in our dua, farmans and not being able to provide a single proof, really leaves your words with no credibility. Sorry shams brother provide references and proof like I have been doing otherwise your words cannot be heeded as they are only your personal beliefs.


Same rule applies to you - you are spouting garbage.

I have already taken your arguments apart and shown in more than 2 instances where something that you interpreted one way - was easily interpreted in another way - i.e. the interview quote.
The other instance - your claim of the Old Du'a not containing reference to Ali - Allah or the "hindu" Imams. - which is not true - showing that you are spouting off without actually reading or trying to understand.

Your aim is not to learn - but to disprove because of your own insecurity.


Our (mine and my ilk) is that Islam was the religion from day 1 of creation Which is what the Qu'ran states - and encompasses all.


You may not believe Ali is Allah - I and many other do - so stop trying to get on your Sunni Intellectual High Horse and try to shut us down...

As I stated - last time I checked - you weren't the Imam.

Just as you state that Ali Allah is my personal belief; Ali is not Allah is your personal belief - why are you hoisting it onto us? and stating that it is Ismaili belief.

You want proof - I told you - go read the Du'a - you are reading each part in isolation - for all the reading and the knowledge you claim to have - and the supposed "enlightenment" - you have yet to figure this basic bit out?

Wow.

Get with the program - Live and let live - and last time I checked - you weren't the Imam - and no one voted for one interpretation of Ismailism over another.

FYI - I actually don't believe in Allah at all - there is only ALI - nothing else but ALI....
How about that?
Shams

j
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sheri



Joined: 11 Mar 2004
Posts: 260

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Provide proof and exact reference. Not interpretations. How can you claim your interpretation is correct. I am giving you exact "word-for-word" references that refute the Ali=Allah concept. You just keep reiterating the same thing "read the dua" "read the dua" If there is a "hidden meaning" inside the meaning of dua, then that is called an interpretation. It is not a fact. I hope you understand the difference between interpretation and fact. If not let me know, and I will provide you with definitions.

I can refer you to certain parts of the Dua which based on my interpretation will make Muhammad = Allah. But that will be my interpretation. Unless, there is a claim made in the dua, it cannot be justified as a ismaili belief.
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

Go read Tusi's paradise of submission- which is not an indian text
go read Ivanow's tranlsations of Nasir Khusraw - on the recognition of the Imam - that is on ismaili.net


Shams, you have named two of the great Ismaili thinkers and philosophers of their times. I admire their works.

But, let me ask you a question.

Do you know their belief framework, and how they interpret and allude about the concept of God and Creation? Can you please backup your argument -- since you have already named these two personalities -- from the sources that you have mentioned?

And kindly let us know, how do you perceive God/Allah? Elaborate a little, other than simplifying it as Ali is Allah, please.


Taw'hid is one of the very important principals of Islam in general, and Ismaili in particular. [MHI has approved that the concept of God has to be thought and understood, in accordance with Surah Ikhlas, which emphasizes the principal of Taw'hid]

According to my understanding, God can not be understood by human intellect. And human may not try to figure out what/Who God is. Because the moment human try to understand something, he associates God with something that human already experienced it. Therefore, any type of association with God, is considered as shirk. The way Tusi and Nasir Khusraw aludes about concept of God, is by double negating to disassociate any type of attribute or adjective with God. Such as God is not kind and God is not-not kind, for example.

Human can not understand God, but human may realize God. This is faith in unseen, unknown.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2014 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tret wrote:
ShamsB wrote:

Go read Tusi's paradise of submission- which is not an indian text
go read Ivanow's tranlsations of Nasir Khusraw - on the recognition of the Imam - that is on ismaili.net


Shams, you have named two of the great Ismaili thinkers and philosophers of their times. I admire their works.

But, let me ask you a question.

Do you know their belief framework, and how they interpret and allude about the concept of God and Creation? Can you please backup your argument -- since you have already named these two personalities -- from the sources that you have mentioned?

And kindly let us know, how do you perceive God/Allah? Elaborate a little, other than simplifying it as Ali is Allah, please.


Taw'hid is one of the very important principals of Islam in general, and Ismaili in particular. [MHI has approved that the concept of God has to be thought and understood, in accordance with Surah Ikhlas, which emphasizes the principal of Taw'hid]

According to my understanding, God can not be understood by human intellect. And human may not try to figure out what/Who God is. Because the moment human try to understand something, he associates God with something that human already experienced it. Therefore, any type of association with God, is considered as shirk. The way Tusi and Nasir Khusraw aludes about concept of God, is by double negating to disassociate any type of attribute or adjective with God. Such as God is not kind and God is not-not kind, for example.

Human can not understand God, but human may realize God. This is faith in unseen, unknown.


In order to have an intellectual discussion - we need to be standing on the same level - and have similar understandings - outside of our ba'yah to the Imam - we don't seem to have anything in common.
We don't even see the same things in our Du'a - how can we have a conversation.
My stance is this - as per the Imam's farman in Chicago - try to explain your faith - if they don't understand - walk away.

All i say is - you have your understanding - we have ours.
Nothing wrong in that.
And we've been saying all along - plurality and diversity is what the Imam preaches - yet - do we all practise it?

Let us agree to disagree in peace - you maybe right from your perspective and understanding and I maybe right from mine.

Shams
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