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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Is raag important or the meaning?
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Is raag important or the meaning?

 
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Aly_shallwani



Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:13 pm    Post subject: Is raag important or the meaning? Reply with quote

Is it possible that ginan could be recited in jamat Khana with its meaning on a daily basis?because we cannot understand its meaning!at all!and i dont think the "raag" of Ginans are that important than its meaning!what do u guys think?same is with our dua!
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TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Is raag important or the meaning? Reply with quote

Aly_shallwani wrote:
Is it possible that ginan could be recited in jamat Khana with its meaning on a daily basis?because we cannot understand its meaning!at all!and i dont think the "raag" of Ginans are that important than its meaning!what do u guys think?same is with our dua!
Is it difficult to learn the meaning of the Arabic for some reason?
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ginans raag are very important. They makes the environment spiritual.
As Ginans are in South Asian languages, those who belongs to South Asia, even if they dont dont know completely the language of Ginans, can get the idea of the message conveyed in Ginans by listening carefully. Translations of Ginans are available in books. Even time to time sessions or lectures on the meaning of Ginans can be held for that purpose.
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Aly_shallwani



Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: Ginan! Reply with quote

Our jamat is diversified!and spread all around the world!there are different languages and different cultures in it,so not every body can understand the proper meaning of our ginans and Dua.for example English is a universal language so why not we recite with its meaning to have a complete understanding of our ginans,which i think is the most important part of our Tariqa!
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19781

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ideally yes each Ginan/Qasida should be recited with meanings, but there is usually not enough time to accomodate both. It remains for individuals to seek meanings for themselves. For the Ginans there are now translations available for many of them. This site has many online and there are books with translations. So if a person is really interested then he can get the translations. In case he cannot find them, he can get help if he asks in this forum.

Also one has to study them to fully understand them. Listening once cannot yield complete understanding.....
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Aly_shallwani



Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:27 pm    Post subject: raags?? Reply with quote

This is why i am saying that raag isn't that important than the meaning,some times we dont get any thing from Ginans, else than a spritual enivironment which it creates.and today our lives our so busy that we dont get enough time to sit and read the meaning of ginans,I think only jamat khana is the ideal place for it..
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
We all know the ginan translation available of almost all Ginans, but it is just a plain translation of the text of ginan but some time ginan words have 'RUHANI' meaning which translator can not write.
for a example I read translation of one word SURJARANI as a name of the queen by one translator , but as per the meaning by Rai Abu Ali meaning of SURJARANI is "The Jamat" he mentioned this in his many waez.
So as per my understanding translation of Ginan in Khane does not make any since.
RAG is very important I saw too many Jamati members when they listning the ginan with Rags they rhythm with the sweet rag.but now a days there are too many rags are taken from Bollywood songs which is not right, we have to stay with whatever the old rags created and they had purpose for that.



Surja Rani - is specifically the Awakened Jamat..Surja - arisen...- alerted...

Shams
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We all know the ginan translation available of almost all Ginans, but it is just a plain translation of the text of ginan but some time ginan words have 'RUHANI' meaning which translator can not write.
for a example I read translation of one word SURJARANI as a name of the queen by one translator , but as per the meaning by Rai Abu Ali meaning of SURJARANI is "The Jamat" he mentioned this in his many waez.
So as per my understanding translation of Ginan in Khane does not make any since.
RAG is very important I saw too many Jamati members when they listning the ginan with Rags they rhythm with the sweet rag.but now a days there are too many rags are taken from Bollywood songs which is not right, we have to stay with whatever the old rags created and they had purpose for that.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19781

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Listening to a Ginan well recited even without knowing its meaning can have a peaceful and soothing effect upon the soul via the subconscious. Many mothers recite Ginans to their infants even though they do not know anything about them. Tazim Kassam in her introductory article on Ginans says:

“The significance of ginans in the Satpanth Isma'ili tradition derives from this nexus among devotional song, ritual worship, and sacred community." The recitation of ginans marks off sacred time and space by creating a feeling of "majestic pathos and beauty,"18 while it also gives expression to a sense of communal identity and fraternity. Binding its participants to an experience of listening, singing, and feeling, this performative aspect of the ginan tradition has played a crucial role in sustaining the spirit of the Satpanth tradition and its teachings.19”

Complete article is at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1509&highlight=tazim+kassam
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:40 am    Post subject: Re: raags?? Reply with quote

Aly_shallwani wrote:
This is why i am saying that raag isn't that important than the meaning,some times we dont get any thing from Ginans, else than a spritual enivironment which it creates.and today our lives our so busy that we dont get enough time to sit and read the meaning of ginans,I think only jamat khana is the ideal place for it..


There isn't any one langauge which the world wide jamat understands. English is international langauge but all the ismailis do not understand English too.

It is important to understand the meaning of Ginans. As without knowing meaning, one cant get the message i.e, being conveyed. There are many books in which you can find translation of Ginans. Even in internet and ismaili.net forum one may find Ginan translations. There are waezes available with interpretation and background of different ginans.

Ginans are mostly recited by the jamat who lives or belongs from South Asia. Ginans are in South Asian langauges. In my opinion, if one listens carefully to ginan, even if he or she will not understand all Ginan he/she can at least understand the theme or message in it for example if you speak gujarati and you listen Ginan ke tame ami ras peejo din ne raat, you can easily understand its meaning.

Anyways, translations are available and they are important to understand Ginan but they can't replace the language in which Ginans were composed. The beauty of Ginan is in the language in which they were originally composed. Just like Aga Khani gave example some terms like Surja rani can be interpreted in different ways. Ginans are wonderful traditions. We should try to preserve them in the way they are and not to bring modification and changes in it. Raags are important too. The raag of Ginan touches the heart and soul and have effect on it. When Pirs used to Sing Ginans all were attracted to listen. I think raag even helps every one to remember Ginans and develop interest of all. As it is easier to remember and listen song, hymns and poems as compare to lecture. One may listen to song/poem etc even ten times and still enjoy the same. This will not be incase of simple translation without raag. If raags were not important Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah would not have recommended to follow the raags of ginans as they were recited in junagadh.
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify that it is mentioned above that Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said to follow the ragas of the ginans as recited in Junagadh.

This referred to the ragas recited at that time obviously. Today the Junagadh ragas can be heard in Jamatkhanas of Mombasa in Kenya but if you go to Junagadh, you will be surprised to see they have changed the rags since then. And they have changed the wordings also, that may explain the change of rag in a way because you change the words, you loose the ginan.

Ginan is the total of the words, the ragas etc.. I posted some time ago that Late Dharsee Master mentioned once to me that he was a 10 years old kid and an old Ismaili in Zanzibar asked him if he wanted to make rain. he looked at the sky where no clouds appeared and started laughing.

He told me the old man started reciting some ginan with a very deep raga and within seconds clouds started gathering and it started raining while the ginan was almost finished. The whole ginan took less then 5 minutes. he could not remember the name of that person though.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2060
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that rags has strong power, I read in too many books that 'TAANSEN' was a singer in the kingdom of Moghul emperor Akbar, he knew most the Rags, whenever he sing "RAG MALHAR' the rain was coming, whenever he sing "DIPAK" rag the lamps automatically light. Mehdi Hasan a wellknown ghazal singer from Pakistan once bosted that he can crack the glass if he sing some kind rag, according him he prooved this duirng his stay in India during his chilhood. Whenever I listen this ginan "HANSA PURI NAGARI MA" beleive me this ginan make me crazy, the rag of this ginan is so sweet that it makes me to dance with the words of the ginan. So the story of Dhashee master could be right.
nagib wrote:
Just to clarify that it is mentioned above that Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said to follow the ragas of the ginans as recited in Junagadh.

This referred to the ragas recited at that time obviously. Today the Junagadh ragas can be heard in Jamatkhanas of Mombasa in Kenya but if you go to Junagadh, you will be surprised to see they have changed the rags since then. And they have changed the wordings also, that may explain the change of rag in a way because you change the words, you loose the ginan.

Ginan is the total of the words, the ragas etc.. I posted some time ago that Late Dharsee Master mentioned once to me that he was a 10 years old kid and an old Ismaili in Zanzibar asked him if he wanted to make rain. he looked at the sky where no clouds appeared and started laughing.

He told me the old man started reciting some ginan with a very deep raga and within seconds clouds started gathering and it started raining while the ginan was almost finished. The whole ginan took less then 5 minutes. he could not remember the name of that person though.


Last edited by agakhani on Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagib wrote:
Just to clarify that it is mentioned above that Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said to follow the ragas of the ginans as recited in Junagadh.

This referred to the ragas recited at that time obviously. Today the Junagadh ragas can be heard in Jamatkhanas of Mombasa in Kenya but if you go to Junagadh, you will be surprised to see they have changed the rags since then. And they have changed the wordings also, that may explain the change of rag in a way because you change the words, you loose the ginan.

Ginan is the total of the words, the ragas etc.. I posted some time ago that Late Dharsee Master mentioned once to me that he was a 10 years old kid and an old Ismaili in Zanzibar asked him if he wanted to make rain. he looked at the sky where no clouds appeared and started laughing.

He told me the old man started reciting some ginan with a very deep raga and within seconds clouds started gathering and it started raining while the ginan was almost finished. The whole ginan took less then 5 minutes. he could not remember the name of that person though.


Thanks for the information. So is there also not change of words in Ginans that are recited in Mombasa?
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
nagib wrote:
Just to clarify that it is mentioned above that Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said to follow the ragas of the ginans as recited in Junagadh.

This referred to the ragas recited at that time obviously. Today the Junagadh ragas can be heard in Jamatkhanas of Mombasa in Kenya but if you go to Junagadh, you will be surprised to see they have changed the rags since then. And they have changed the wordings also, that may explain the change of rag in a way because you change the words, you loose the ginan.

Ginan is the total of the words, the ragas etc.. I posted some time ago that Late Dharsee Master mentioned once to me that he was a 10 years old kid and an old Ismaili in Zanzibar asked him if he wanted to make rain. he looked at the sky where no clouds appeared and started laughing.

He told me the old man started reciting some ginan with a very deep raga and within seconds clouds started gathering and it started raining while the ginan was almost finished. The whole ginan took less then 5 minutes. he could not remember the name of that person though.


Thanks for the information. So is there also not change of words in Ginans that are recited in Mombasa?


there are minimal word changes that come over with the recent migrations to east africa from the indo sub pak continent...but if you go further into interior..you'll find originality of sorts.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Shams
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