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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Difference Between Qasida And Ginan
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Difference Between Qasida And Ginan

 
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Noor_Ali



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: Difference Between Qasida And Ginan Reply with quote

Ya Ali madad
I have been searching the website for a long time and I found it really informative fo me. But one thing confuses me and that is the question about the dieffernce between Ginan and Qasida. Is there any difference between them? I am trying to know that.
thank you
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20418

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In his most recent Talika-Farman made on 13th Dec 2008, MHI said:

"It is in this light that, in Shia Ismaili Islam, the Imam-of-the-Time recognises a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Bait-ul-Khayal, Qaseedas, Ginans, by which an individual can submit to the Divine and protect himself or herself against the materialism of secular life, and the many other challenges of daily life."

From the above statement both serve the same purpose and hence can be considered as the same.
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Noor_Ali



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Aali Madad
And thank you for all the informations that you provided, but my question was about the difference according to their spiriual meanings not the literal meaning, because our tariqah deals with the spiritual aspect of Islam according to Mawlana Hazir Imam's Holy Farmans. I am satisfied with Kmaherali's respond, (thank you KmaherAli) however Star_Munir tried to create a gap between the Qasida and ginan, because whenever someone uses the word "BUT" in comparing two things, it means that one is different from the other as Star_Munir says, "...But, there are variety of topics that comes in Ginan...". According to him Ginan deals with a variety of topics not Qasida. but he forgets that Even Our Holy Imams have written their Holy Farmans in the form of Qasidas. For example, Hazrat Ali(S.A), Hazrat Abdus-salam(S.A), Hazrat Shah Nizar II(S.A) whose Farmans=Qasidas are present in the Qasida book "KITAB AL-MANAQIB". so now my question from Star_Munir is that do not the farmans of Holy Imams captures the universal Knowledge within it? then why do you differenciate the ginan and Qasidas?
Secondly, you talked about the variety of topics. let me ask you what is the most hidden secret or topic in the ginan which can not be found in the Qasidas? let me know about it, please...
why we see the two things differently which comes from the same origin and that is highly sacred? does not this shows our lack of knowledge?
please solve this issue, however it seems small but every big problem starts from a very small misunderstanding.
thank you.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qasidah means praises. In general it is about praise of king, emperor or nobel man. Ismaili Holy Qasida have praises of Holy Imam, Hazrat Ali and Nabi Muhammad. Qasidas are usually in Arabic and Persian langauges.

Ginan is derived from Sanskrit language which means knowledge. Ginans also have praises of Holy Imam. But, there are variety of topics that comes in Ginan. Ginans are also considered as tafseer of Quran. Ginans have mostly words from South Asian languges.
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5999

PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lets not generalize:

Qasida written by the Imam can not be in the same category as Qasida written by other people. Qasidas written by the Imams are like farmans.

They should however not be used to give credibility or weight for other people's Qasida which are also important but not of the same category as farmans.

Ginans written by Pir appointed by Imam can not be in the same category as ginans of non appointed Pirs.

Some Qasidas also exists in Indian languages they are called Geets and mostly have the same praises to the Imams as many of the Qasidas.

We can cry and become emotional listening to the beautiful Qasidas of Ibn Hani in praise or our Imam but still they cannot be considered as important as Qasidas written by Imam al-Moiz in praises of Jesus for example.

Imam and Pirs make our Doctrines. Dais and Poets, missionaries and Sayeds expand on the knowledge of that doctrines.

The important of the message is always linked to the credibility of the person which is sending the message, not to the persons that brings the message.

There also exists Qasidas which denigrates our Imams and which are written by the enemies of the Imams. History is full of those. On the other side, beautiful Qasidas are even created by today's Murids and can be enjoyed even on http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/13103 [oups, I forgot, advertise is not permitted on this website icon_wink.gif
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Noor_Ali



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ya Ali Madad
If the Qasida written by Imams are different form the others then why they are published in the same single book which contains the Qasidas of Nasir Khusraw, Hassan Sabah, Shams Tabriz, Rahis hassan Alamuti, and others, giving the same Name of "Kitab al-Manaqib?" known among the ismailis as Qasida book.
Secondly, admin said that:
"Dais and Poets, missionaries and Sayeds expand on the knowledge of that doctrines."
If the sayings of the above mentioned personalities, sayeds, are lower , then why the poetries of Sayad Imaam Shah, Sayad Mithah Shah,Sayad Muhammad Shah, Miraan Muhammad Shah, Sayad Rehmatullah Shah and others categorized as "Sacred Literatures-Ginans" .
It seems that there exists contoversies between what is being explained and what is being done here.
Again if you go to "Devotional Literature- Qasidas and Geets", you will find the Farmans of Imams categorized as equal to Geets and Qasidas. because by putting farmans into the category of geets and qasidas, you weigh those famans as equal as Geets and Qasidas.
Finally, yes you are right we should not generalize with out "Mizan"
(balance or scale of knowledge) as Mawlana Hazir Imam (Salwat ullah alaiy) did not generalized in his recent Talika mubarak of 13 Dec, 2008. he said,
"can submit to the Divine and protect himself or herself against the materialism of secular life, and the many other challenges of daily life."
but again I learned this skill of categoization of Qaisdas and Ginans from Admin. Admin advises not to generalize, but themselselves has already generalized. go to the Library and see the Generalization Qasida and Ginan.
the categorization of all ismaili literature can be like this;
Saced literature must not contain only the Ginans but also those Qasidas or Manqibs which are Sacred. this seems real justice.
then in the category of devotional literature, there must not be only the Qasidas, but also those ginans which are written by Sayads (As the Admin has already mentioned above).Now this justice, We should search all the Ismaili communities around the world and then Categorize them, does the Sacred Literature of Aall Ismailis only exist in the Sub-continent Language? All other Ismailis are throwned away from the sacredness of Ismaili Tariqah? that is what the admin means by the way it has categorized the Literature of Ismailism. My purpose to write is to tell the truth wherever it exists, nothing else.
thank you
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5999

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not wish to enter into controversies with people that have a very shallow knowledge of the faith. This is not meant as an insult, do not get me wrong. There are a lot of sources you need to study first before I start replying. If you think by putting 2 different texts in a book and binding them together makes them equal, you have a long way to go. By the way the ginan literature contains ginans of sayed but only those approved by the Imam specifically during the compilation and the printing process and ginans of the other saeds are not included in those books.

As I said, first read a lot about the subject and then come on the board to discuss. Do not come with an agenda, we can smell those from a distance.

We have seen many small self-appointed gods in the past in this forum and we have always told them the following:

Criticizing the way the webmaster categorize the items and thinking that it should be your way of categorizing is not a bright idea. The bright idea you should have is to make your own web site at your image as God made his creation to His image and we will respect your way of categorizing on your own website without criticizing you..

Admin
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Noor_Ali



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now you come to the point that the aim and finall aim of this website is to create of its own image, not to promote and explain Ismailism. thank you
but you forget the mission of this website:
First Ismaili Electronic Library and Database - The aim of FIELD project is to establish, organise, develop and maintain systematically a central electronic library of primary and secondary sources, books, journals, media coverage as well as audio, video and electronic archives related to Ismailism. The FIELD project will provide a globally accessible resource center for Ismaili Studies in Cyberspace.
your resources do not contain Ismailism as whole.
Ya ali Madad
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noor_Ali wrote:
Now you come to the point that the aim and finall aim of this website is to create of its own image, not to promote and explain Ismailism. thank you
but you forget the mission of this website:
First Ismaili Electronic Library and Database - The aim of FIELD project is to establish, organise, develop and maintain systematically a central electronic library of primary and secondary sources, books, journals, media coverage as well as audio, video and electronic archives related to Ismailism. The FIELD project will provide a globally accessible resource center for Ismaili Studies in Cyberspace.
your resources do not contain Ismailism as whole.
Ya ali Madad


When Allama Hunzai pays for his own website - y'all can get on there and say whatever you like..and call him whatever you like.

This website is run by umedwars and this website promotes the cause of Ismailism as I see it - there have been many like Allama Hunzai and his followers that have come along...and gone...but the Imam and the faith have remained.

If you have nothing to hide, why don't you and the rest of the "hunzais" shut up and let the controversy die down? You keep on putting out document after document trying to establish legitimacy for his causes...
you put out documents that are setting the base for his claim to the status of a Dai or a Hujjat - remember even those are appointed by the Imam not individuals proclaiming themselves...

So..here's the deal - you either participate following the rules of this site..or you go away..and create your own site where you can do whatever you please.

Shams
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Noor_Ali



Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya ali madad, ShamsB
it seems that you have a feeling but not as an Umedwar, because an Umedwar's way of talking is not like how you expressed your feelings. try to convince with logic not with colonial ways of imposing over others.
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noor_Ali wrote:
Ya ali madad, ShamsB
it seems that you have a feeling but not as an Umedwar, because an Umedwar's way of talking is not like how you expressed your feelings. try to convince with logic not with colonial ways of imposing over others.


you can use logic only with people that understand logic, not with pseudo intellectuals that do not follow the farmans of the Imam when it comes to utilizing the intellect.

Go study your faith before you make your statements..and it's "opinion" versus feeling.

Shams
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Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 5999

PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the heading of this section is Ginans, let come back to discussions about the subject and lets all try not to divert.

Admin
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2059
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per my opinion there are little bit difference between Qasida and ginan
In Arabic and Persian (Farsi) language Qasida used to be written to praise king or some one extra ordinary persons like our Imams, nobleman or Almighty Allah.
The typically Qasida runs more than 50 lines.
the classic form of Qasida maintain a single elaborate meter throughout the poem.
While ginan in Sanskrit, Pakrut, Hindi and gujarati language ginan(Gnyan) means knowledge, and in our ginans we find informations, guidance and details on almost all the aspects.
So we all should respect both and recite both.
I didn't know till now that our Imams also wrote some Qasidas thanks for the information.
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TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:16 am    Post subject: The Arab qasidah Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
As per my opinion there are little bit difference between Qasida and ginan
In Arabic and Persian (Farsi) language Qasida used to be written to praise king or some one extra ordinary persons like our Imams, nobleman or Almighty Allah.
The typically Qasida runs more than 50 lines.
the classic form of Qasida maintain a single elaborate meter throughout the poem.
Actually, the qasidah originated as an ode. It was long, it had the rhyme patterns, and it was one of many oral traditions of the Arabs. There are many kinds of Arab poetry, and in the Islamic world their meanings often changed. You hear qasida being used for a lot of things in Urdu and such that aren't "classical" qasidas by any description of the term. One thing that is true about the qasidah is that it is an ode: it is long. There is a parallel form to the qasidah called the qit'a that is identified as being no more than 20 lines; length distinguishes the qasidah.
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