www.ismaili.net

Ya Ali Madad,

I know of the 5 pillars of Islam however I would like to know how you feel about Zakat. I know that we have to give it to the Imam of the time, but what I really want to know is how do you feel about other Muslims (Sunis) giving there Zakat to the poor people. Any views??

To me what is important is the Niyah behind. Is it given with a detached attitude and purely for the sake of Allah and for the prupose of purification. If it is, then I believe it will be accepted. The following verses from Bhagavat Gita best describe this concept.

Chapter 17 (11:13)

11. A sacrifice is pure when it is an offering of adoration in harmony with the holy law, with no expectation of a reward, and with the heart saying 'it is my duty'.

12. But a sacrifice that is done for the sake of a reward, or for the sake of vainglory is an impure sacrifice of Rajas (worship of gods of power and wealth).

13. And a sacrifice that is done against the holy law, without faith, and sacred words, and the gifts of food, and the due offering, is a sacrifice of darkness.

This is an example of how wisdom from different traditions serve to reinforce and illuminate the key concept of charity - a strength of pluralism.

Ya ali madad to all

In human history offering to the lord is a very old tradition. People offer food, flowers, fruits, percious jewels, and gold/silver/ect.

The logic behind this is to make the Lord happy so the giver can benifit. In the Quran, Allah says give me a loan so I can establish you on earth forever. In old times muslims pay zakath, nazrana, sathka, and kerath. They all have the same purpose which is to make the Lord happy. Whatever your nayath (will) is God will return in manyfold.

Sami maro evo je koi no nah rakhe baar, tame alo ek (1) var, sami ale soh soh (100) var

When humans offer money not all of them know our Lord like we do but our Lord (shah) still of course knows all of them and gives back to them as well.

May mowla bless you all and grant you understanding of our tharika

Karim Qazi

In Ginan Pir says
Aashaajee Sukaa fal so nahee kuchh bhaave
tenu moddhun fitt-fitt thaay jee
khaaraa paannee sarovar kaheeyen
peetaa taras nav jaaye..................Haree anant..366

Oh Lord The dried(raw) fruits are never tasteful
and the face of the person eating them becomes very ugly
The lake water is very salty(although it is abundant)
it will never quench one's thirst no matter how much of
it is drunk
Haree You are eternal...





Aashaajee Kupaatre daan khaaraa jaanno
dasond veenaa nahee leve jee
kalar maanhe jem mehaj varse
tenu daan nav thaay.....................Haree anant..367

Oh Lord If charity is directed towards a false container-purpose
(any institution other than the Imam's)
The Lord will not accept it as charity without
observance of the tithe
It is like rain falling on an infertile ground
and the charity does not benefit the donor (or the
receiver)
Haree You are eternal...

What about first listing the 7 pillars of Ismailism?

On top of the 5 pillars of Islam we Ismaili's add two more: Tahara, and Walaia. (Sorry about the spellin errors)

While it is important to be aware of our interpretation in this discussion, I think it is also important that we do not become intolerant to other interpretations. We should avoid saying "we are right and you are wrong". Otherwise we will fail to promote pluralism in this manner.

The verses of Anant Akhado do potray our understanding of charity. However I do not think we should say these things to others. These are batini concepts which we should be aware of and should remain within our Jamat. It is as good as saying MHI is God publicly.

I was not saying that we are right and they are wrong nor was that my intent. I was just merly saying that these are the other 2 pillars that we add and there is nothing wrong or nothing to be ashamed about it. If they can not except that those are our belifs well then that is there problem.

aminL wrote:I was not saying that we are right and they are wrong nor was that my intent. I was just merly saying that these are the other 2 pillars that we add and there is nothing wrong or nothing to be ashamed about it. If they can not except that those are our belifs well then that is there problem.

I am referring to the verses of Ashaji and not your comments.

Oh im sorry, i guess i must have misinterperated your response

Ya Ali Madad

Karim as you said While it is important to be aware of our interpretation in this discussion, I think it is also important that we do not become intolerant to other interpretations.

I am not becoming intolerant and I am not debating with non ismailis here but with ismailis and there are not my words but the verses of Ginan by Pir Hasan Kabirdin in which there is direct answer of the discussion which was we ismailis give dasond to Imam while nonismailis give it to needy people so what do you think. I cant say that ismailis should also give zakat to other people not in JK or both the ways are right we can do whatever we want. I just posted what is in Ginan about this issue. At the time Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] also people gave money of dasond to Prophet [PBUH] not direcltly spent it on poor people

star_munir wrote:Ya Ali Madad

I am not becoming intolerant and I am not debating with non ismailis here but with ismailis and there are not my words but the verses of Ginan by Pir Hasan Kabirdin in which there is direct answer of the discussion which was we ismailis give dasond to Imam while nonismailis give it to needy people so what do you think.

YAM Munir,

The discussion on this subject started with what do we think about other Muslims paying Zakat. In my opinion, since most of them do not recognise the Imam or have no understanding of SuPatra, I said that if their intent is for the sake of Allah only then it will be accepted.

I am in no way suggesting that Ismailis should also start doing the same. It would indeed be a regression. For Ismailis Dasond is the only lawful charity. They will not have the excuse of ignorance like the rest of the Muslims.

Continued from
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8550

Admin
Our belief does not depend on Wikipedia or other books and websites unlike those of some other firqas.

Our beliefs are based on our love for the Prophet (PBUH) and the Ahle-Bayt.

We do enjoy being the chldren of our Time as ordered by the Prophet (PBUH) and today we live according to the guidance of the Imam of the Time.

Our beliefs are based on our love for the Prophet (PBUH) and the Ahle-Bayt.

So you should honor Prophet and Quran by following his commands on Zakat

Yes we honor the Prophet (PBUH) by following what he has told us: mainly that at his time those who would not follow 95% of what he said will be lost but one time will come when those who follow more than 5% of what he said will be lost and therefore we have to be the children of our time.

Which we Ismaili have no difficulty in doing as we have our Imam to guide us through the requirement of our Time, hopefully, ahead of our Time.

These are not concepts that non-Ismailis can easily understand else they would become much more tolerant of Ismailism, perhaps even join us.

And yes, we do not need to be told what love for the Ahl e Bayt requires from us, it comes naturally to those who have this love in them. For others, this has to be analysed and dissected and thesis have to be written, not for us, the true lovers of the Prophet (PBUH) and his progeny.

It is useless to waste time with people who do not know the basic of Islam.

So I suggest you stop your comments on the subject.

First familiarize yourself with what the Ismailis believe in .(Bukhari is not an authority for us, the Imams are). We have our interpretation of faith which obviously is different of yours. We do not believe the majority is always right. That is a concept foreign to us.

We also do not believe in eternally living in the past even if the majority does as you seem to think. We are not married to Bukhari or Muslim or to their Hadiths.

We love to live in the present. In my opinion, those who do not want to be the Ibn al Waqht as ordered by our Prophet (PBUH) are a disgrace to the memory of our Holy Prophet and to Islam. Religion is not politics.

Get used to it. Thank you.

Ya Ali Madad:
85% hadith are fakes floating around.Even here the majority is fake. It is all said,narrated, heard, saw etc of every tom dick harry of that time.
Bukhari being biggest con game in that.
Majority have been sucker in eras of the past and also seen as lost and Disaster.
What Ismaili does is order of GOD/ALI.
if one shuts up,Even prophet word has shade lower value than word of ALI in Quran n Farmans.
In reality n practice in year 2014 only 15-20% of disasters may be following the 5 candles in totality.

You have given a test on yourself for light of face n darkening of eye rings to observe yourself.

See yourself in Mirror n forget bhikari,tikari anadi farting away dime a dozen constructed sayings of an entity.
See where your soul stands n not what Ismailis do .it is thier opportunity
to break the chains of Shariat alrady in Tariqat n steaming ahead to Haqiqat n Inshallah fly into Marifat.

85% hadith are fakes floating around.Even here the majority is fake. It is all said,narrated, heard, saw etc of

Imam Nuseri
Kindly list 15% hadith you accept.

It is useless to waste time with people who do not know the basic of Islam.

Basic Islam is
Sahada, Salat, Swam, Zakat and hajj
Ask anybody. Who even has slight knowledge of Islam

zznoor wrote:

It is useless to waste time with people who do not know the basic of Islam.

Basic Islam is
Sahada, Salat, Swam, Zakat and hajj
Ask anybody. Who even has slight knowledge of Islam

6 Basic belief of Muslim

Belief in the Oneness of God:
Muslims believe that God is the creator of all things, and that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. God has no offspring, no race, no gender, no body, and is unaffected by the characteristics of human life.

Belief in the Angels of God:
Muslims believe in angels, unseen beings who worship God and carry out God's orders throughout the universe. The angel Gabriel brought the divine revelation to the prophets.

Belief in the Books of God:
Muslims believe that God revealed holy books or scriptures to a number of God's messengers. These include the Quran (given to Muhammad), the Torah (given to Moses), the Gospel (given to Jesus), the Psalms (given to David), and the Scrolls (given to Abraham). Muslims believe that these earlier scriptures in their original form were divinely revealed, but that only the Quran remains as it was first revealed to the prophet Muhammad.

Belief in the Prophets or Messengers of God:
Muslims believe that God's guidance has been revealed to humankind through specially appointed messengers, or prophets, throughout history, beginning with the first man, Adam, who is considered the first prophet. Twenty-five of these prophets are mentioned by name in the Quran, including Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last in this line of prophets, sent for all humankind with the message of Islam.

Belief in the Day of Judgment:
Muslims believe that on the Day of Judgment, humans will be judged for their actions in this life; those who followed God's guidance will be rewarded with paradise; those who rejected God's guidance will be punished with hell.

Belief in the Divine Decree:
This article of faith addresses the question of God's will. It can be expressed as the belief that everything is governed by divine decree, namely that whatever happens in one's life is preordained, and that believers should respond to the good or bad that befalls them with thankfulness or patience. This concept does not negate the concept of "free will;" since humans do not have prior knowledge of God's decree, they do have freedom of choice.

Yes thanks we also know how to copy paste.

Islam is nothing at all of what you have written. These are only exterior signs of Islam. Islam is submission to Allah. Allah does not need your external signs of devotion, He does not like people who make a show out of it. What Allah wants to see is your good intention. The concepts you have listed are also beliefs of the Ismailis. Your interpretation would obviously be different from those of the Ismailis. The difference comes only from interpretation. There is freedom of interpretation.

This is the perpetual debate between Batin and Zahir. That's not going to be resolved today.

Long way to go.

zznoor -
I believe this issue has been discussed several times now in various threads, and every member tried to explain in different ways; however, you are more tempted to respond, than listen to understand.

In any faith/religion, there are different interpretations and that's quite acceptable; for example, in Christianity, in Hindusim, in Islam and etc...

The pillars of Islam that you named, could be very well interpreted differently from one sect to another. We, ismailis do believe in these principals, and have our own interpretations, which may not be aligned with what you believe or come to know. And I believe that should be acceptable.

Remember, refusing a concept is entirely different than having a different interpretation. Ismailis do not refuse these principals, but have different interpretation of them, than Sunnie or Twelvers, and that's where pluralism come into play.

To zznoor.:Ya Ali Madad.
I do not accept all the hadiths but acknowledge the one quoted by our Imam time to time in thier farmans n sermons.

If thing are 85% fake then there is not much use of .
act of a person does become binding to the mankind n how he acted 1400 years back n seen or observed by persons already dead.
You just have blocked your mind on what fake or real observed or written
1400 years back.
IT IS USELESS as we are not living in that era.
If my daughter want something today from me is a reality and not my grandmother wanted from her father in that period narrated to me by aunty
who is known gossiper in the area.I may give my daughter she wants n not impose upon her that she will get same thing what her great grandmother got n escape the reality of today Will you buy skin care cream which all full price
of original stuff is selling 85% fake creams in the shop.
Only ignorant or fools will buy it , later seeing the effect of the cream
on their body or faces will know it's fake.
I assume you are well read n active googler.
Forget all of 14oo year old nautanki n history.
We have a living Imam, closely wacthed by millions of his acts n sayings.
There are his farmans, speeches,interview etc.
Why dont you study and if you wish give your critical analysis.
A father will give the best to the child what is available today n not what
was available for people in medieval ages.
I humbly request to reflect your common sense on what is seen today is reality on following what was said n accepted 1400 years back.
Compare what is the status NOW of those stuck to 85% fake stuff n those
listening n accepting what a living reality says today n even tomorrow.

Candles are needed if one has no light is gutter/sewage area below the road when you are on ground connecting to sky there is sunlight and candles are not need.Candles were important when humans were living
in caves.
SAMAJDARO KO ISHARA KAFI HAI.
USSE ALI SAMJO YA ALLAH.
AB TO AA JAO USKI GAADI MEE.

dear all....my main request for advise has been ignored by all and other arguements and info has been discussed and posted.

reminder: my ques was: Can we give the dasond money to the needy and poor ourselves? I have a friend who is a widow with small children, very needy, sick and desparate. but I do not have that much that I can help out every month but if I and my other ismaili friend can give the dasond money to her she and her kids will be able to survive till she gets on her own feet. PLease advise by staying on the point by answering - yes OR no and why?

Your question has not been ignored, it has been explained in several ways. You have been explained that Dasond is not charity. What else are you expecting from this discussion?

Haysal wrote:Can we give the dasond money to the needy and poor ourselves?

since dasond belongs to the Imam of the Time, therefore only Imam of the Time can decide what to do with the dasond.

However, you can give the needy from what belongs to you.

I read this beautiful passage, and I thought I should pass it on.

The exoteric of revelation is like brackish water, but the esoteric is like pearls for wise people. Since pearls are to be found on the sea-bed, look for the pearl-diver instead of those running on the shore. Why does the Maintainer of the world keep so many precious pearls concealed in the bottom of the sea?

"the esoteric is for the wise, the exoteric for the ignorant"

reminder: my ques was: Can we give the dasond money to the needy and poor ourselves?

Many readers in this forum gives you bold answers many times, so some time it is hard to find correct answer from them so, let me put it here clear cut answer about dasond 'NOPE' you can not give dasond money to needy and poor peoples nor you can give it to any charity.
Dasond is the fundamental principal of Ismaili sect and only Imam and pir are entitled to have that money.

Ya Ali Madad.
I would use the word as 'obligatory offering'.(called as OO)
I may offer different opinion ,it is how a person look at it.akin to glass half full n half empty.
In our faith (not religion) ALI is identified upto marifat level.
the word OO is narrow defined word at Tariqat level ,which is the absolute prerogative and sole recipient of OO as Imam of the time.
So the meaning n scope of this word n act end there n then at Tariqat angle.
the same ALI at haqiqat level is Allah/God. is acknowledging n accepting
all the offering made by any human being in church,temple,mosque.
their intention is seen there,they are also rewarded with their act,there are
may be some Ayats to that effect.
All physical currency or good stays on earth for good use by religious custodian or some one cheating in the name of God.
Now come charity of intellect ,service or money come over and above prayers as that helps n benefit human mankind.
There are Ayats stating spending in cause in destitute women n orphans has great blessings from ALI.
A level beyond haqiqat is where ALI guides a person( that person is a puppet in his hands.where to give OO his/her money,intellect or physical service.
All the act of that person is acted upon by ALI.Even some designated entity authorized by ALI such as Pirs,etc have even had the right to accept n use OO.
The word OO n act of charity of great blessing has very thin line or even NO LINE where seen at Haqiqat level as GOD the intention behind the act of the person is seen by ALI
In short there is thick line between OO n Charity and debatable at Tariqat level.at Haqiqat level the the line was never there in the first place.
and beyond that is is HIS ACT and the person is just the media.(puppet).
the word OO has a very very deep meaning n broad understanding co related to Khidmat in the cause of ALI.
If I try to explain that people may misunderstand me.
If everybody is ready I will take it forward

zznoor wrote:

zznoor wrote:

It is useless to waste time with people who do not know the basic of Islam.

Basic Islam is
Sahada, Salat, Swam, Zakat and hajj
Ask anybody. Who even has slight knowledge of Islam

6 Basic belief of Muslim

Belief in the Oneness of God:
Muslims believe that God is the creator of all things, and that God is all-powerful and all-knowing. God has no offspring, no race, no gender, no body, and is unaffected by the characteristics of human life.

Belief in the Angels of God:
Muslims believe in angels, unseen beings who worship God and carry out God's orders throughout the universe. The angel Gabriel brought the divine revelation to the prophets.

Belief in the Books of God:
Muslims believe that God revealed holy books or scriptures to a number of God's messengers. These include the Quran (given to Muhammad), the Torah (given to Moses), the Gospel (given to Jesus), the Psalms (given to David), and the Scrolls (given to Abraham). Muslims believe that these earlier scriptures in their original form were divinely revealed, but that only the Quran remains as it was first revealed to the prophet Muhammad.

Belief in the Prophets or Messengers of God:
Muslims believe that God's guidance has been revealed to humankind through specially appointed messengers, or prophets, throughout history, beginning with the first man, Adam, who is considered the first prophet. Twenty-five of these prophets are mentioned by name in the Quran, including Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last in this line of prophets, sent for all humankind with the message of Islam.

Belief in the Day of Judgment:
Muslims believe that on the Day of Judgment, humans will be judged for their actions in this life; those who followed God's guidance will be rewarded with paradise; those who rejected God's guidance will be punished with hell.

Belief in the Divine Decree:
This article of faith addresses the question of God's will. It can be expressed as the belief that everything is governed by divine decree, namely that whatever happens in one's life is preordained, and that believers should respond to the good or bad that befalls them with thankfulness or patience. This concept does not negate the concept of "free will;" since humans do not have prior knowledge of God's decree, they do have freedom of choice.

For zznoor and others alike: I strongly suggest to go through the following link to clarify misperception about Ismaili interpretation of the pillars of Islam.


http://ismailignosis.com/2012/09/30/the ... f-walayah/

For my Muslim brothers and Sisters RAMADAN KAREEM
Ramadan I'd month of fasting, prayers, charity and reflection.

Salaam