Farman on Homosexuality?

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:58 pm

A-LEET,
You are mistaken, the word gay was adopted by the homosexual community to provide a positive connotation to their lifestyles (previously, being referred to as queer). Gay means happy any queer means strange - the former being positive and the latter negative.
But I do admire your patience with LittleKidLover (or whatever that idiot's name is). I can only hope the Department of Homeland Security have his home and work wiretapped.

my brother first of all u show us just one aayat from the holy quran stating GAYISM and GAYS

God's Speed Brother (or should i say sister? hehehe)

And Kid, does your book not peach tolerance, No one here as asked you to to engage in homosexual behavior, so leave it alone and stop spreading your hate.

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:56 pm

QIFAR

you said :

God's Speed Brother (or should i say sister? hehehe)

And Kid, does your book not peach tolerance, No one here as asked you to to engage in homosexual behavior, so leave it alone and stop spreading your hate

MY BOOK ??????

ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT QURAN E PAAK ??? WELL ITS NOT JUS MY BOOK, ITS THE BOOK FOR THE WHOLE MANKIND =MAN/WOMAN

WHO USE INTELLECT

AND OFCOURSE IT PREACHES TOLERANCE BUT V DO NOT SHOW TOLERANCE TO THOSE WHO DONT BELIEVE IN ALLAHS FINAL COMMAND , WHEN ALLAH SAID NO "GAYISM" THAT MEANS "NO GAYISM" ,SIMPLE !!!

u never read ismaili constitution did ya ?

The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La ilaha illa-llah, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah', the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu 'alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal.

The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

as i said earlier prove me that GAYISM which u follow is not prohibited in the book of god!!!

if u can prove it vll stop this debate ryte now, MANZOOR ????

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:33 pm

Kid, I already gave you my argument of reasonable doubt, if you're going to simply ignore arguments made you might as well not be here.

Qifar, while I am happy you agree with me on my view I do not agree with your means of conveying that. Your comments seemed to be condescending toward's Kid's attitude and we should all be spreading love.

Kid, I asked you to use respect in your posts and you haven't made any improvements.

"IT'S THE BOOK FOR THE WHOLE MANKIND =MAN/WOMAN WHO USE INTELLECT"

Besides the lack of etiquette of using all caps to convey a message, which is equivalent to yelling, intellect is not based on one's faith. An absolute moron can be an ismaili or any other sect of islam that follows the Quran and there are many geniuses who do not follow Islam. It is quite rude and judgmental to spread messages like that, which are based on nothing. And statements like this and many others probably justified why Qifar accused you of spreading hate. You also happen to be the only person who has argued against homosexuality without stating that you don't judge a person based on their sexual orientation.

And your refusal to not except any science that exists outside the Quran makes me suspect that you want a separation between science and faith, which raises the question of whether you are using intellect.

I'll ask you again to be respectful/ not make your points smugly with unnecessary emoticons, and if you're going to respond give a reason why my argument should be rendered null and void. I've given a reason behind using the Quran soley based on reasonable doubt. There's a lot of information out there on the internet at your fingertips, while you're searching, I recommend you seek online etiquette lessons or bone up on your English, you are in an English speaking nation after all.

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:22 pm

.next...

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:29 pm

oh, it just dawned on me, KID IS GAY!

what other possible reason could there be for such a hard-lined approach. Kid is sublimating fear of his latent homosexuality - we should be more kind.

please accept my apologies for my antagonism, i did not realize you were working out issues.

good luck kid as you embark on your yellow brick road of discovery

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:51 pm

loooooooooooool QIFAR

thts all u cud do ??? play the GAY GAME, blaming others to b GAY while ur one of em ?

if i was GAY i wud have been more than happy to support u and ur GAY thoughts but its the other way my dear fren

now u gonna fight simply bcoz u cannot prove anything from the book of god ,lol

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:17 pm

so you are spreading intolerance then, because you are against homosexuality because you're not a homosexual. And you're attacking Qifar about accusing you of being gay, but that's what you've done to Qifar and myself. You are such a hypocrite. You keep saying "the Quran" as if the more you repeat it, it will adapt itself to make a point. Do you know what reasonable doubt is?

qifar · Post by **qifar** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:40 am

if i was GAY i wud have been more than happy to support u and ur GAY thoughts but its the other way my dear fren

you, sir, are a hypocrite! if you are willing to waiver in your beliefs as a function of your own sexual orientation you have just rejected your own hard-lined arguments that you have been clinging too. if homosexuality really is such a universal evil it should still remain evil if you were a homosexual.

kid, Copernicus called, he said you're not the center of the universe.

as the late John Mortimer said, "Liberty is allowing people to do things you disapprove of."

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:10 pm

QIFAR

KAFIR

i asked u to show me a single verse from quran that support GAYISM and look what u wrote

you, sir, are a hypocrite! if you are willing to waiver in your beliefs as a function of your own sexual orientation you have just rejected your own hard-lined arguments that you have been clinging too. if homosexuality really is such a universal evil it should still remain evil if you were a homosexual.

kid, Copernicus called, he said you're not the center of the universe

then as usual u talked about LIBERTY and BS[which ur full of]

for u a word of a person is more important than the word of god which is not at all surprising to me bcoz a KAFIR like u is not scared of allah[swt] nor aakhirat

and yeh ur ryte if u think by following quran and its command iam a HYPOCRITE then iam proud to b so bcoz im scared of allah and unto him i shall return

24:34 We have already sent down to you verses making things clear, an illustration from (the STORY of) people who passed away before you, and an admonition for those who fear ((Allah)).

quran is full of science but unfortunately gays like u prefer giving head rather than using head

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:12 pm

Kid, do you know what the word hypocrite means? I suggest you get a dictionary and look up these words before you attempt to retort because you're spreading ignorance at that point.

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:23 pm

i know what HYPOCRITE means and i also know whoz a KAFIR

thanx for ur advice anyways

n btw v all know who is ignorant

so far u ignored my challenge to prove GAYISM from quran and ur calling me ignorant

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:11 pm

I gave you the argument of reasonable doubt, if you're not going to feud it, then there's not much to do, I've asked you to either find holes in my logic or any reasonable doubt in my arguments and you haven't done so.

I'm assuming you're too proud to admit you don't know what the word hypocrite means, because the implication you made in your statement suggests that you'd forsake the Quran if you were a homosexual. Therefore, you only believe what the Quran says out of convenience for your life. The only person who appears to be ignorant on this forum is you. And your arrogance in no way compensates for that, on the contrary, you appear more foolish of both the physical world and spiritual teachings as you make judgments of other people and spreading intolerance.

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:38 pm

wow! first iam a hypocrite and now iam a fool , reason ? i follow or atleast iam trying to follow the commands[laws] set by allah[swt]

this arguement is based on QURAN[the ultimate guide] and not on science bcoz even science is created by allah[swt] !!!

i hope u remember how u came in this world

so as i said earlier if u can prove ur stand from quran e paak ill leave

if u wanna show us any scientific proof plz prove it from quran[the ultimate guide]

rasool[saw] followed quran
h.ali[as] followed the noble quran
nur mawlana shah karim aga khan follows holy quran

so i hope ur next post will b related to quran or quranic aayats

thank you

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:08 pm

you can be a hypocrite and a fool and clearly you are.

You openly stated on this forum that you would support homosexuals if you were a homosexual. Therefore, your belief that homosexuality is wrong isn't based in the Quran but your own preconceived notions.

Also, since science is created by Allah as well as the Quran, there shouldn't be a conflict. My argument is that there isn't a conflict because the Quran was written in a time where homosexuality had a different connotation. Many of the aayats you posted referred to lying with another man over his wife. The reference to the male excludes lesbians and would therefore, more likely refer to men sleeping together out of a form of respect, which was believed to be valid until the Quran stated otherwise. That is why there is REASONABLE DOUBT to apply these aayats in a different context.

Honestly, I don't know why you hate or are afraid of science so much. You admit science is a product of Allah. Once again, science is a method! So, scientific discoveries are discoveries that are proven and can be repeated. So getting scientific proof from the Quran is a really ignorant statement. But for now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and challenge you to find me a passage in the Quran that explains special relativity without aid from any scientific publications.

On average, 5% of the population are homosexuals, and this percentage varies based on people who remain in the closet (due to people like you) and that percentage is fairly consistent with other species as well. Species that don't share the intellect you waste so it can't simply be defined as a "choice." At this point, you may want to argue that they're abominations, but all life is created by Allah and Allah is infallible, hence, homosexuals have every right to be who they are.

On a final note, the main argument you put forth is that homosexuality is essentially a sin. However, no one has given a reason of what about it is bad or wrong. The only plausible reasoning was the one I gave that ties in with my argument of it being in a sin in that context and now time since that ceases to be in all societies I know of.

Like you said, the Quran is a guide, so you have to be able to look outside it as well.

I hope your next point contains an actual argument instead of moronic rants.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:03 am

REMINDER [yes this is a SHOUT!]

Stick to the subject of his thread which is is there any Farman on the subjects if yes bring it here. If there is any thing that can be interpreted in farmans as being on the subject, that also can be discussed here.

No personal attacks are allowed on the board.

Keep it polite because if the insults continue here, I will not only delete the posts but also the user account of the people insulting each other and using impolite language.

There are more then half of dozen of you doing just that so be warned!

Admin

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:53 pm

I would like to apologize for my language, it was an err in judgment and I shouldn't have let myself be provoked like that.

However, I would like to point out the debate has only gone to aspects outside farmans because there were no farmans on the subject and the question still remains whether homosexuality is right or wrong. While most of us will have to agree to disagree on the subject, I think it is fair that we should be tolerant and non-judgmental of those; ismaili or non-ismaili who are homosexuals. That includes not making remarks about their intelligence or ridiculing their way of life.

I am ready to continue this debate peacefully and rationally if any one would care to rebut the arguments I've posted.

ZeS · Post by **ZeS** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:58 pm

Perhaps not to over simplify the issue, but let's put it this way.

If God is love, and we believe in love, why is it wrong to love someone else? What could we hold against that?

The Qur'an lays out many examples that are simply contradictory: like the inheritance for men and women upon death. Laws in the west over ride these. So, I'm not saying that we ignore the Qur'an, nor judge other people. There are many issues it raises that simply cannot be resolved, or view as black and white, yet we do not debate them.

So why let it become such a big issue. Women in the Qur'an are property, yet in the west, they are people.

So why promote hate, or discrimination. Why look to others when we can find logic in ourselves. Faith is the connection between murid and murshid so instead of placing hate everywhere, why not find love in ourselves?

I mean, accd. to the Qur'an Jews are not to be trusted, nor befriend. And Hazir Imam has never stated that we ought to be friends with Jews explicitly, therefor.... we should promote hate.

I don't understand - where is the love?

s/

heartbreakkid · Post by **heartbreakkid** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:50 pm

bro ZE'S

the topic under discussion is HOMOSEXUALITY and not LOVE, if u have any questions or suggestions regarding homosexuality ur most welcome bro

but as for me HOMOSEXUALITY is not LOVE, its a CRUEL LUST

ur comments plz ???

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:08 pm

on what grounds is it cruel and we are talking about s homosexual's right to love another without facing discrimination. Lust is biological and it is the same whether it is you with a significant other (be they male or female, I'm not going to judge) or a heterosexual and a member of the opposite sex or a homosexual and someone of the same sex.

Zes is right that while you may not be convinced that what homosexuals isn't wrong, spreading hate and making ridiculous claims is completely contrary to the practice of Islam.

And Kid, you still have yet to respond to my previous arguments... I'm waiting

ZeS · Post by **ZeS** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:38 pm

We'll, you're stating that homosexuality is lust. Of course, that is just your opinion.

Two brothers can love each other. Two friends can love each other. A different kind of love right?

Well what if a women loves another woman, sexually? But never has sex with her. Is that lust? Or do two male friends who sexually love each other, but never have sex, is it still lust? It makes no sense.

You cannot separate love from homosexuality, or heterosexuality: because if if you separate the sexual act, it is the same care, the same compassion that exists.

It is impossible to classify love. There is no distinction. A feeling is a feeling, and to care for anyone, friend, father or child, is love.

As to the validity of interpreting the Qur'an, my question has not been addressed. If we cling so dearly to one statement, how come not all? Why befriend a Jew & give women the right to an opinion?

Why promote hate?

s/

ZeS · Post by **ZeS** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:49 pm

Another random thought about the Qur'an: How do we treat the issues that it does not mention:

For example, the internet.

If Islam stands for a society of equals, and peace, to promote a dignified norm, then the internet should not be used. Atho it is a tool and a valuable resource, it's mostly used for enhancing the gay agenda, promoting promiscuous and group sex, and selling various sexual and erotic items. If this what it does promote, then as Muslims we should stand against the moral decay it brings upon society.

just a thought,

s/

Post by **Admin** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:29 am

This thread is suspended for 2 weeks to give all of you sometime to cool down and realise that a Forum is there only to discuss in a civilised manner even if it is a hot topic for whcih you all have on both side very definite views.

Again, as a reminder, it is OK to discuss facts related to the topic of the thread but not OK to insult, be judgemental of to shout [like writting in capital letters or in bold or in underlined all your text!

Admin

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:04 pm

I'm still ready to continue this debate. Can we at least establish that within society, homosexuals should be treated equally and have the same rights, before we get into whether homosexual acts are right or wrong?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:21 am

I think Admin should lock this topic forever, This topic already had enough disucssion , afterall Ismaili.net is religious website and Admin should not give importance topic like this.There are too many other religious and important topics in this website which need more discussion then this, this is my sugestion only, lock this topic or not is totaly up to Admin.

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:15 am

you could tell that to many gay ismailis whose families disowned them. You can't pretend these issues don't exist or are not valid. There are no farmans on homosexuality, there are no clear cut answers, which is why this should take importance. A conclusion hasn't been reached within this debate, so it hasn't been discussed enough. If you want to focus on another topic on this forum, by all means go. No one has a gun to your head to make you respond. Furthermore, this is a faith of intellect, so suggesting to censor information on the grounds that you don't want to talk about it is both unfair and counter productive.

I know this post isn't violating any of the rules, and is still in context, so if this thread does get locked, I will fight it!

TheMaw · Post by **TheMaw** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:42 am

As a lesbian Ismaili, I'd like to see this discussion continue...

hungama25 · Post by **hungama25** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:56 am

you could tell that to many gay ismailis whose families disowned them. You can't pretend these issues don't exist or are not valid. There are no farmans on homosexuality, there are no clear cut answers, which is why this should take importance. A conclusion hasn't been reached within this debate, so it hasn't been discussed enough. If you want to focus on another topic on this forum, by all means go. No one has a gun to your head to make you respond. Furthermore, this is a faith of intellect, so suggesting to censor information on the grounds that you don't want to talk about it is both unfair and counter productive.

I know this post isn't violating any of the rules, and is still in context, so if this thread does get locked, I will fight it!

and can i ask u why their parents disowned them ?? you are showing us only that part of the story which u think is correct !!

do u know how hard it is for a parent to disown his child ?? have u ever thought of tht mother who was in labor for 9 months ???

do u think those parents r retard to simply disown their child ??

so jus bcoz there is no firman on homosex that means it kool ???? when somebody give u a reference from quran u simply ignore, bible u ignore...when u ignore the book of god do u expect us to believe that ull b str8 after our imam makes a firman on homosex ??

mark my words that day ull simply leave this religion ,y ??? bcoz mawla dont like what u like

all i can do is pray for u brother

TheMaw · Post by **TheMaw** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:34 am

Hungama, since this isn't a text message, could you please write standard English? When u rite lyk ths itz hrd 2 rd.

kthnxbye

Post by **Admin** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:09 am

TheMaw wrote:Hungama, since this isn't a text message, could you please write standard English? When u rite lyk ths itz hrd 2 rd.

kthnxbye

I think he does not understand. last time his account got deleted because of this and he has come under a new name, same style.

No Pidgin English here please. Pidgin English is slowing our processing power. Pidgin English users gets the privileged to be deleted very fast.

Admin

a1337 · Post by **a1337** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:19 am

I'm not ignoring the Quran, I've made numerous arguments as to how the passages about homosexuality could be interpreted, given the time and situation, providing a lot of reasonable doubt.

And to answer your questions YES. Those parents' have no right to disown them based on their sexual orientation. Parents are supposed to have unconditional love for their child, so how come homosexuality is the only clause. Considering it is more rare for parents to disown over alcohol abuse, or even a change in faith. But the one thing, that the child doesn't have a choice over.

Look at all the stigma in society in regards to being homosexual, do you honestly think someone thought to themselves I want to put myself in a situation where I can't be accepted into most societies. Homosexuality is genetic. And to say it's wrong is like saying it's wrong to be black, white, tall, short, smart, hairy, skinny, etc.

If 2 people find love, why should we stop them because they're both the same gender? If you feel it's wrong, besides the argument 'the Quran says so,' find a genuine reason why you think it's wrong.

www.ismaili.net

Farman on Homosexuality?

A humble sugestion