where a bad person go after death in ismailism

danu · Post by **danu** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 12:03 pm

yam i want ask a question is that
a good person if he did bandagi with go to the noor of god
but a bad person in the ismailism wll go where after death as reincarnation proccess is not is ismailism

every body is invited and i requested you to join it nd share your view

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:13 pm

According to some Sultan Muhammad Shah Farmans, there is a belief in reincarnation.

However, this belief is not official and whomever is free to believe in it.

I believe that ppl cannot attain Noor of Allah in only one lifetime as some souls are young and need to experience in order to evolve. I believe that through reincarnation, Allah allows us chances to develop our soul, until we reach the ultimate state of purity, and then we get Noor of Allah.

777 · Post by **777** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:18 pm

[quote="danu"]yam i want ask a question is that
a good person if he did bandagi with go to the noor of god
but a bad person in the ismailism wll go where after death as reincarnation proccess is not is ismailism

every body is invited and i requested you to join it nd share your view[/quote]

Yam, dear Danu,

Mawla said in his farman; Hazrat Imam Sultan Muhammad shah Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubin Farman 45 (Zanzibar, 13th september 1899):" Mowlana Rûmi said: “I was a stone, from there I was made a tree, from that I was transformed and made an ant; after that, I reached the stage of an animal. I ceased to be an animal to reach the status of monkey. From that, I became a human being. From human being, what shall I become? I shall become an angel. From there where shall I go? I shall rise even higher.”

That's all the incarnations, and in human incarnation, you have Shariat (anything but ismailism) and ismailism and sufism with are Tariqat ( or seventh heaven).

He also said:"On the Day of Judgment, other people have the excuse that they did not know the true faith. But you Arabs, Badakshanis, Khojas, Mumnas and all other Ismailis who are of the true path, will not be able to give any excuse on the Day of Judgment. "

Dear Danu, a bad ismaili will fall, he will become an animal or maybe a stone( the worst one).
YAM

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 2:52 pm

There can still be reincarnation AND a day of judgement.

We know that eventually, this earth will come to an end, it may take billions of years, but it will sure happen.

And when that day comes.....each soul will be judged based on all the actions it committed and its spiritual development over the ages.

The process of reincarnation offers each soul a chance to evolve and elevate itself through different incarnations - mineral, vegetable, animal, and human.

The whole point of one's existence is the Submit to God's Will (Islam). When one is in the form of a mineral, vegetable, or animal, one does not have free will, therefore, Submission is automatic and instinctive.

But for human incarnation, one has free will, and the ultimate and hardest challenge to to Submit through one's own free will/intellect.

This cannot usually be done in only a single human lifetime, and therefore, one has many human reincarnations, so one can purify the soul.

however, this system of incarnations is NOT endless. one day, the time will be up, and every soul will be judged accordingly.

shirazkali · Post by **shirazkali** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:31 am

i think there are few stages or groups in the heaven. if a person did very bad deeds, then he will need an "ibadad" to come to upper stage. then a person did fewer sins then the first one, he will be in the different stage. he will need an ibadad to go to upper stage, and so on. those people will come to world again, the process of reincarnation, stone...animal...then human. they will have a chance again. Acording to my understanding, there is an stage closer to god, fewer people will be there. these people were doing ibadad and recieved that stage, but they didn't recieved the imam's didar in their life. these people weren't that good nor bad, but they have a goal. "i think" these people will come to the world again in the human form. they will n't pass through the long process of reincarnation. maula will mercy on their "jeeve" and give them the chance again after few years of ibadad. you must know the difference between "jeeve" and "soul". remember these two are different things. if you don't know the difference and their work in the world and after death, then i will explain you. request for it. i will try to prove or "interpretate  my explaination" with an event that occured during imam sultan mohammad shah. one couple came with their new born child to the imam. they requested for his name. imam gave the name and imam said that "your grand father has came after forty years". "i think" his jeeve was in detention at the certain stage. by the imam's blessing he had given another chance for salvation of his jeeve. i will write more later, thanks.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:15 pm

There are many bollywood movies about poonar janam and about reincarnation in which actor or actress remember their past birth?
The question is that is this possible or not in reality?
The answer is it has happened in reality. Four year old Edward Esplugus Cabrero , who lived with his parents in Cuba remebered his past birth.I have read this from book
Read and Know
Number 38
Published by Shia imami ismailia association for Tanzania
Dar-es-salam
In this book complete story is written about this child.

saadi · Post by **saadi** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 3:05 pm

I think there is ionly one mortal life on earth per soul. In other words we live once and die once. We will indeed be resurrected but that would be on the day of judgement, the day when the reward for good deeds and punishments for evil deeds will be awarded.

As far as Mowlana Rumi's qoutation is concerned I accept his authority and spiritual superiority and hence can cannot claim to have the wisdom to coorectly and accurately interpret his perceptions. I believe with our level of understanding and limited capacity we cannot always get the essence of their wisdom but still I think the journey was more spiritual.

I see adaptation of hindu beliefs as a common phenomenon in us Ismailis and I think we should discourage this as many people see Ismailism as a hybrid between Islam and Hinduism. The Hazar Imam has issued no farmans regarding it (please correct me if I'm wrong) and hence I don't see any room for reincarnation as different life forms on earth

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:58 pm

Did you know that the belief of reincarnation was prominent among Early Christianity?

Did you know that there were even Jewish sects who believed in reincarnation?

Did you know that during thousands before Muhammad, the same Religion of Islam was being preached?

Did you know that the Sages and Rishis of Hinduism were Prophets of Islam?

Did you know that The Quran mentions that Prophets were sent to every nation and every people?

Did you know that Shri Krishna was the Imam of his time and he taught reincarnation?

Your statement of Ismailism = Hinduism is not valid. This is because Muslims believe in Jesus and Moses, so by that logic, Islam = Judaism+Christianity.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 10:07 pm

Edward Esplugus lived with his parents in Havana,cuba. He was a normal child and being their only child was much loved by his parents but he changed strangely and began talking about his 2 brothers.he told storis about a beautiful mother with black hair and a fair complexion. He said his name had been pancho seco and they lived in Rue Companario. These remarks made deep impressions on mother and father.The boy also told them that he had been taken to hospital very ill and had died.
The parents knew thee was Rue Vampanario in Havan and one day they took the boy on a trip to the district.As they came round a corner they saw a chemist shop. Edward said it is the shop I used to go .He ran around another corner ans stopped outside No.69 Rue campanario crying this is my home.
His father knocked on the door and the man who answered said that seco family had lived there until their son Pancho had died 4 years earlier.
Dr.Ian Stevenson a psychiatrist at the university of Virginia's school of Medicine said that pancho returned to earth in edward's body and that it was reincarnation.

From book
Read and Know
Number 38
published by ismailia association for Tanzania

jalilv · Post by **jalilv** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:57 pm

kandani wrote: Did you know that the Sages and Rishis of Hinduism were Prophets of Islam? Did you know that Shri Krishna was the Imam of his time and he taught reincarnation?

With due respect, can you point to anything that can substantiate your claims ? YAM, Jalil

Munira786 · Post by **Munira786** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:50 am

I don't think that we as Ismailis should believe in reincarnation. Because Hazar Imam in his firman says, that each one of us will have an eternal life after we die. So, if we believe in reincarnation, then we don't believe in eternity.

I think after our death, we will all live in some form where our life will be eternal. What form, I don't know. but we will probably not come back in to this world as a human, or as any living being that dies.

This is wha I interpret from the firman, what do you guys think?

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Mon Jan 05, 2004 11:32 pm

dear munira786 in our ginans it has been stated
"jootha marna to sab jug mare saacha na marre koi
Gur ginane jo mare ta ku bodh marna na hoi"

I understand this as
everyone dies in a false manner no one dies for real
in the knowledge of imam those who die, they do not have to die any more

another ginan jibya indari ekaj nad jo bandhe so utare paar it states

satgur vachane jivta mare
ekoter puriya tena tare

what this means I think is that in the Farmans of the Imam you annihilate your desires and start living according to the desires of the Imam this life of living in the desires of the imam is eternal life and this annihilation is the real death and this leads to the salvation of 71 generations of such a murid

shams

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:32 pm

In my opinion, all of us will go through reincarnation in the next life
or the lifes hereafter. If we don't become one with Noor of Allah then
we will be reincarnated back into life and keep on being so until we
become one with Allah (fanafillah)
We came from Allah so we will return to Allah
dosen't it make sense?? To me it does.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Mon Jul 05, 2004 11:23 pm

To become one with noor of Allah...

When were you ever seperated from the noor of Allah in the first place?

Ginans say "Noor ae rachiyo sansar"

The breath you take-----was it not created from the Noor of Allah. So can it be any different from Allah.

Whatever we can experience through our senses is all Noor. and whatever is above our senses is He who is above all else.

Salwat pado Alamiria!

To become assal mae wassal means to know with perfect conviction that you have never seperated from Allah.

Where do you think life comes from?

From his spirit.

So every thing including your life is from his spirit.

His spirit is what moves you, makes you able to talk and breathe.

Try to become aware of this fact 24 X 7 and you will begin to recognize him.

In you and in everyone around you. And godwilling in everything.

Wish you all the best

Shams

from_Origin · Post by **from_Origin** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:01 pm

shamsu wrote:To become one with noor of Allah...

When were you ever seperated from the noor of Allah in the first place?

Ginans say "Noor ae rachiyo sansar"

The breath you take-----was it not created from the Noor of Allah. So can it be any different from Allah.

Whatever we can experience through our senses is all Noor. and whatever is above our senses is He who is above all else.

Salwat pado Alamiria!

To become assal mae wassal means to know with perfect conviction that you have never seperated from Allah.

Where do you think life comes from?

From his spirit.

So every thing including your life is from his spirit.

His spirit is what moves you, makes you able to talk and breathe.

Try to become aware of this fact 24 X 7 and you will begin to recognize him.

In you and in everyone around you. And godwilling in everything.

Wish you all the best

Shams

Simple and well articulated Shams.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:57 am

Islam believes in reincarnation.
I am surprised no one brought up 2 simple ginans we say in khane, one being Maal Khajina where we say
Is fera mahe jo to bhool jayesi to bahut khayesi fera..
(paraphrase translation)
if you forget in this cycle, you will go thru many many cycles.

or there is another one that talks about going thru 124,000+ cycles to attain this birth..

or i am quoting the holy quran here..this is in the quran because i researched it for an alwaez who claimed that reincarnation was a hindu concept and MSMS and MHI made farmans to placate some people...

Sura Baqarah
[2.28] How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him.

hope this helps...our concepts aren't hindu concepts..they are our concepts ..we have to get away from the arabization of our faith and practices

from_Origin · Post by **from_Origin** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:39 pm

ShamsB wrote: or i am quoting the holy quran here..this is in the quran because i researched it for an alwaez who claimed that reincarnation was a hindu concept and MSMS and MHI made farmans to placate some people...

Sura Baqarah
[2.28] How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him.

Thanks for the info and resource ShamsB.
I am in total disbelief that a person whom you mentioned above would be THAT ignorant and lost and yet still be recognized as an Ismaili Al-Waez!!! Can you tell me what part of the globe this person was/is from? I don't wish to know his/her name.

hikmah786 · Post by **hikmah786** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:43 pm

Sura Baqarah
[2.28] How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him.

Islam does categorically not believe in reincarnation. The correct translation of the above verse is:

2:28 How can ye reject the faith in Allah - seeing that ye were without life (not conceived), and He gave you life (birth); then will He cause you to die (death), and will again bring you to life (on the Day of Judgement); and again to Him will ye return.

There are NO shia or sunni authorities that contort the meaning of the above verse to imply reincarnation in the hindu sense i.e. multiple lives on earth.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 11:03 am

I thought as ismailies we didn't go to any other shia or sunni authorities for our interpretation and that comes from the Imams who have said in Farmans that reincarnation is a part of our faith..the Kabbalah and the Torah both have reincarnation as part of their faiths too as does christianity...
i believe each one of us is free to make our own interpretation
and there is also something called Law of Karma..every action has an equal and opposite reaction..
and as pir said.
Is fera mahe jo to bhul jayesi to bahut khayese fera.

Shams

hikmah786 · Post by **hikmah786** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:40 pm

I thought as ismailies we didn't go to any other shia or sunni authorities for our interpretation

I was merely alluding to the fact that you stated at the beginning of this thread that "Islam believes in reincarnation". I don't believe this is correct. Whilst we ismailis (as 15 million among 1.2 billion Muslims) may believe in reincarnation, the other 1.185 billion do not. And even among Ismailis it is clear that some do not accept the idea of reincarnation and others are just confused.

I would be grateful if someone could provide references for the Farmans in which SMS or MHI declared reincarnation to be part of faith. The Farman quoted in ealier posts has SMS quoting Rumi poetry, rather than saying it outright himself: was he merely admiring the verse or stating an article of faith?

i believe each one of us is free to make our own interpretation

In respect of having one's own interpretation, of course everyone is 'free' to make his own interpretation. But that doesn't mean his interpretation is worth anything. For example, I as a lay person could 'interpret' a set of medical results and diagnose a patient with cancer. A physician on the other hand, would 'interpret' the same results and diagnose the patient with a common cold. The lay person is free to interpret as he wishes, but the fact of the matter is the patient has a cold and not cancer - this is objective fact.

In the same way, the lay person in religion is free to 'interpret' whatever text or practice they wish but they might be completely wrong. In respect of reincarnation, there seem to be 2 scenarios: 1) we die and we are only raised up for the Day of Judgement or 2) we die and are reborn on earth multiple times before being finally raised up for Judgement.

Now it may be the case that Johnny interprets the deen such that (1) is true, and Jenny interprets the deen such that for her (2) is true. Whilst they are both perfectly entitled to say what they think, one of them must be wrong. Either we will be reincarnated, or we won't.

In this society we are - from childhood - taught that our opinion or point of view is king. In matters of religion, this is not the case because we are talking about objective truths: reincarnation is true or not, heaven is true or not, etc.

Possibly the most persuasive argument against the legitimacy of 'personal interpretation' in religion is the system that Allah has put in place for mankind's guidance: a book (the Quran), prophets, and their followers. It is their interpretation (and not one's own) that matters.[/quote]

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 10:34 pm

As you wrote "Islam believes in reincarnation". I don't believe this is correct. Whilst we ismailis (as 15 million among 1.2 billion Muslims) may believe in reincarnation, the other 1.185 billion do not. And even among Ismailis it is clear that some do not accept the idea of reincarnation and others are just confused.

If ismailis believe in reincarnation than Islam also believes in it because Islam and ismailism are not different religions but infact true Islam is Ismailism.
There are many ismailis who do not go to Jk or do not follow Farmans so what? Does it mean that ismailism not believes in following farmans.
No matter any ismaili accept or not but if it is in Farman or Ginan it is ismailism and it is in Ginan and there are so many Farmans about importance of Ginans that if there is some thing in Ginan it is true and it is ismailism and there is no need for other reference to prove it true.
Eji Lakh chorashi to chutiae,

Jo rahiae aapna Satguru ke farman mahain,

Daso(n)d dije Satguru mukhe,

To vaso howe amrapuri mahain

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:22 am

In response to one of the questions asked by a group of missionaries Mowlana Sultan Muhamad Shah stated the following regarding rebirth.

"Obviously reborn means in a higher sphere than this earth. Without going to the final spiritual sphere there will be further triumph before the highest points are reached unless those highest points are reached in this world and on this earth by the general rules of the Ismaili faith beginning with kindness, gentleness, etc and going up to highest love of union with Imam."

I interprete the above statement of the Imam as implying that for Ismailis there is no rebirth on this earth. The Mursheed will eventually purify us and unite us with himself. The statement is quite clear that the highest points can be achieved in this life through our ethical principles.

The following is Tusi's view about resurrection of souls which seems to align with MSM's view above.

"As for resurrection of souls, this human body is like a grave for the human soul. Every soul whose inclination and yearning is towards the physical world, and which is imprisoned in the hands of the devils of lust and wrath, negligent of God's Exalted Command, has in reality died the death of ignorance. It has fallen into the grave of the dark body and has been seized by the passions of Hell.

The resurrection is the resurrection of the souls of those who have died the death of ignorance [and who are] asleep in the tombs of their bodies, darkened by internal passions. Then, when the trunpet of the Resurrection (sur-i qiyamat) is blown, i.e., when the call of the summons of the Qaim is given, may greetings be upon mention of him, they will be resurrected from the grave of the body, i.e., they will be roused and be revived by the spirit of faith.

"Answer God and His prophet, when he summons you to that which gives you life."(8:24)

Peace be with you, and praise be to God, the Lord of all worlds."

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:35 am

In a mystical vision induced through a waking dream by an esoteric practice of a Sufi Tariqah under Late Master Sheikh Muzaffer Ozak of Istanbul, Lex Hixon (the author of the "Heart of the Quran") found himself in paradise with Prophet Muhammad. He discusses paradise, hell and the hereafter with Prophet Muhammad. He tells the Prophet "But we read in the Holy Koran that those who deny Allah will suffer in Hell eternally." To which the Prophet replies: "But you read again and again in the Holy Koran that Allah is all-compassionate and all-merciful. How could an all-compassionate Power create a realm expressly designed for beings to suffer even for an instant, much less for eternity?" The Prophet further goes on to say: "My dear friend, it is true that when a soul who has not practiced the life of loving submission to Allah reaches Paradise, it cannot bear the intense radiance here, so falls asleep again and dreams of Hell. Hellfire is simply the purifying radiance of Paradise. And all dreams, even dreams of eternal damnation, are but momentary. These dreaming souls soon awaken into Paradise, fully purified and joyously praising the All-Merciful One."

The above vision accords with Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah and Tusi's views expressed in the previous post.

mrimonuk · Post by **mrimonuk** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:50 am

If reincarnation is true then why we to have face day of judgement...............through reincarnation all jeeve must be purified and get the noor of Allah in course of time.

mrimonuk · Post by **mrimonuk** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:03 am

As per Ismailism can human be reborn as plant or animal.

nm · Post by nm » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:38 am

My jury is still out on this one!

But what I do understand is that there are no "bad people" just bad habits and behaviours.
And life is a preception: eg a rich man may not like his finances decreased but the poor man may like to see his children feet in shoes!

so given that, all of us have equal chances of going to 'heaven', but then heaven is here and now on this earthlife!

When we have done all that we canwith Allah on our mind to do seva and dua,tasbi and all personal duties with a compassionate heart, and we have this with Tan,Man and Dhan, we go to heaven!! I believe that one should love Mowla and his Grace NOT because one fears Kiyamat or death or reincarnation!

Sorry my belief is extremely simple when it comes to reincarnation!

(some prominent real life reincarnations(Non-Ismaili): writers: Ian Stevenson, Tom Schroder)

nm · Post by nm » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:44 am

Oops and I also forgot to say:
that the prayers and well wishes, etc., etc. after you have departed, for your soul are extremely important in the process too! It all adds up to make up for the "small stuff" that you overlooked or missed or forgot or hurt unknowingly etc.!! Love is a grace of heaven! Sadness and challenges remind us to take note of our own strength and choose better alternatives..I do not believe that these were to scare us of "non-heaven", mowla is too too too kind and loving for making you fear him! (A tough teacher maybe, but loving all the same!)

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:46 am

Somewhere in one of my posts I have given references of Imam SMS farmans about rebirth.

Think about it, the body of the Imam is born over and over but the Noor stays the same. The same applies to our soul but we are unaware of the past and the future.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:57 am

mrimonuk wrote:If reincarnation is true then why we to have face day of judgement...............through reincarnation all jeeve must be purified and get the noor of Allah in course of time.

The Day of Judgment can be taken in a literal sense as a particular day or allegorically as any moment of reckoning. In my opinion Day of Judgment represents a sense of accountability. It can happen every moment. Hence regardless of whether there is reincarnation, accountability occurs all the time. As they say you are punished by your sins and not for your sins.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:59 am

mrimonuk wrote:As per Ismailism can human be reborn as plant or animal.

There is a Farman of ISMS made on 18-10-1903 at Wadhwan which states: "You run after bread and women. Even a dog barks and utters much. Likewise what difference would there be between you and a dog or a donkey if you do the act of eating and talking senseless....What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death?"

The above Farman mentions the possibility of becoming a dog after death. However in my opinion it is to be taken in an allegorical sense to reflect the precarious nature of the soul. A human being who does not behave according to his stature is worse than a beast. Perhaps the soul of a plant or an animal is better off than a soul of a worst human being.

www.ismaili.net

where a bad person go after death in ismailism

where a bad person go after death in ismailism

Re: where a bad person go after death in ismailism

What does dying really mean.

Noor

Re: Noor

Reincarnation in Islam

Re: Reincarnation in Islam

Shia/Sunni Authorities

Rebirth - Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah and Tusi

Experience of Hell - Mystical Vision

Reincarnation

Farmans

Re: Reincarnation