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Names of imam in the last part!

 
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Aly_shallwani



Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:01 pm    Post subject: Names of imam in the last part! Reply with quote

In the last part of dua there are the names of imam i want to know why are these names included as the nur of these imams has come into Hazir imam than wats the reason of these names plz any one can tell me!
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_thaillestlunatic_



Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These names are included because the Imam wants them to be.
The whole 6th part of dua ecompasses the concept of tawheed and
panj tan pak and then the imams. I don't know the specefic reason for it
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found at least three material bonuses in this list of Imam's at the last Du'a Chapter.

1. By reciting it, our next generations will know where the Imam is coming from.

2. With the pronounciation of each name, when reciting Du'a, I visualise the history of each of those Imam. When I say Mowlana Ali, I see his life, anecdotes, Gadir-e-khum, Siffin etc... When I pronouce Mowlana Hussein, I see Karbala etc..


3. When dating manuscript. Many of the old khojki manuscripts have the Geneology of Imams and Pirs as part of the Old Dua. Sometimes pages are missing or the date of the manuscript is not legible. In those case, it takes only a look to the last name of Imam in the DUA chapter to know the approximate date of the manuscript....

Nagib
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19787

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:06 am    Post subject: Names of Imams in 6th Part Reply with quote

In my opinion, Dua contains all the essentials about our theology that every Ismaili ought to know. The names of the Imams in the sixth part is the essential information about our history. Offcourse if one is more knowledgable, then he could build other associations about events and places associated with the Imams. If we did not have the names of the Imams in our Dua, how many Ismailis would know them. My guess would be less than 1%.

Knowledge of the names of the Imams provide us with the basis for our Identity: Who we are? Who were our Imams? What is our history? Which places did we live and rule? How are we different from the rest of the Muslims both Shia and Sunni.
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aminL



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 84
Location: Toronto

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In his recent firmans Hazar Imam is constantly saying when you have time take out a tasbee and call on the name of Allah, or Aly, or Muhammad, or the name(s) of the Imams. The names of the Imams at the end are a type of Ziker. This is the reason why they are put into the dua.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:30 am    Post subject: Imam Alyshah Reply with quote

I have heard froma reliable source that there is a farman of Imam Alyshah which says that in all types of ibadaat bandagi's Dua is Afzal because it has the names of Imams in it.


Now we all know that it is the name of Allah which is Allah himself. All these names of Imams have the same significance as any other name of Allah.

And this truth will not change whether someone agrees with it or not.

Shams
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from_Origin



Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 28
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: Imam Alyshah Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
I have heard froma reliable source that there is a farman of Imam Alyshah which says that in all types of ibadaat bandagi's Dua is Afzal because it has the names of Imams in it.

Shams


Dear Shamsu, please define Afzal.
Thanks
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Afzal means superior
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ONiazi



Joined: 05 May 2003
Posts: 56
Location: Deerfield, IL, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As-salam!

Various aspects of the Dua/Ritual prayer of Nizari Isma'ili Imami Shia Muslims correspond to the practices of prayer of Ithna 'Ashari Imami Shia Muslims. Two of the most obvious are the choice of three times in a day when to offer one's prayers and a recitation of the list of Imams.

Amongst Ithna 'Ashari Imam Shia Muslims there is a supplication called the Dua-e-Hifz-e-Imam. In transliteration, this is:
"Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim. Razeeto billahe rabbun wa be Muhammadin sallalaho alehi wa alehi wassalam nabian wa bil Islame dinan wa bil Qurane kitabun wa bil Kaabate qiblatun wa be Aliyin waliyan wa imaman wa bil Hassan wa bil Hussein, wa bil Ali ibnil Hussain, wa Muhammad ibne Ali, wa Jafar ibne Muhammad, wa Musa ibne Jafar, wa Ali ibne Musa, wa Muhammad ibne Ali, wa Ali ibne Muhammad, wa Hassan ibne Ali, wal Hujjat ibnil Hassan, salawat Allahe alehim a'immatan. Allahumma inni razito behim a'immatun fa-arzeni lahum. Innaka ala kulle shai'in qadir."

The translation of this is:
"In the name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate. I believe in Allah as God, in Muhammad (Allah's blessings be upon him and his descendants) as the Prophet, in Islam as the religion, in the Qur'an as the Book, in the Kaaba as the qibla, and in Ali as my master and Imam, and in Hassan and in Hussein, an in Ali son of Hussein, and Muhammad son of Ali, and Jafar son of Muhammad, and Musa son of Jafar, and Ali son of Musa, and Muhammad son of Ali, and Ali son of Muhammad, and Hassan son of Ali, and The Proof son of Hassan (Allah's blessings be upon them) as Imams. Oh, Allah! I believe in them as Imams the way You made them. Surely You have power over all things."

I would not be surprised if the reason for the recitation of the list of A'imma amongst Isma'ilis derives from similar reasons that Ithna 'Ashari Imami Shias recite their supplication.

I agree with previous posts that suggest that this is done so that their names may be remembered. It would make sense to remember the past A'imma, even if the Nur in them was and is the same. One might call this the Isma'ili version of the Das Avatar - the "avatars," as it were, of the Divine Light that have come through successive generations to guide, enlighten, and lead humanity, from Imam Ali down to the current Imam.

Nur-e-Khuda hafiz,
ON
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it very interesting that the Ithnashris have similar lists in their Du'a. I was not aware of this. I wouldn't either be surprised that they took the inspiration from ismaili du'a. Does anyone know since when their Du'a exist [as receited presently?]

Nagib
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nagib



Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 295

PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it very interesting that the Ithnashris have similar lists in their Du'a. I was not aware of this. I wouldn't either be surprised that they took the inspiration from ismaili du'a. Does anyone know since when their Du'a exist [as recited presently?]

Nagib
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yaaaahoooo



Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:03 pm    Post subject: Names of the Imams Reply with quote

hello.......

As we are on the topic of the names of Imams can anyone shed some light on the actual names of the imams

the dua books issued from india and pakistan and Canada differ on the way when some of the names are recited

e.g is it Mowlanal Muizz or Mowlana Al Muizz

or is it Mowlana Moahammed dinil Bakir or Mohammed bin Bakir

and so on

So I m looking for the ACTUAL names of the Imams......if someone cud help......


regds
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Names of the Imams Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:
hello.......

As we are on the topic of the names of Imams can anyone shed some light on the actual names of the imams

the dua books issued from india and pakistan and Canada differ on the way when some of the names are recited

e.g is it Mowlanal Muizz or Mowlana Al Muizz

or is it Mowlana Moahammed dinil Bakir or Mohammed bin Bakir

and so on

So I m looking for the ACTUAL names of the Imams......if someone cud help......


regds


Actually a lot of the names we recite in our dua are titles of the imams..they aren't the imam's actual names, reasons being the imams were in Daur Satr for some of those periods.
I don't think there is a difference between Muizz and Al Muizz..it would be like MacAdam and Mcadam...

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19787

PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Names of the Imams Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:
hello.......


e.g is it Mowlanal Muizz or Mowlana Al Muizz

or is it Mowlana Moahammed dinil Bakir or Mowlana Mohammed bin Bakir

and so on

So I m looking for the ACTUAL names of the Imams......if someone cud help......


regds


Mowlanal Muizz is actually Mowlana Al Muiz. It is spelled differently to reflect the way it is pronounced. It is pronounced as Mowlanal Muizz.

Al Muizz is a title which means the Muizz (I am not sure what Muizz means). Akbar means greatest. Al Akbar means the greatest.

Mehdi means saviour. Al Mehdi means the saviour. There is a difference between the two. Without "Al" it means any saviour. With "Al" it means a particular and unique one.

Mowlana Moahammed dinil Bakir is derived from Mohammedin al Bakir. In Arabic it is pronounced as the former i.e Mowlana Mohammed dinil Bakir. Al Bakir is the title of Mohammed.

Mohammed bin Bakir is wrong because it means Mohammed the son of Baqir.
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yaaaahoooo



Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:42 am    Post subject: hello Reply with quote

nice to have your responses friends

Since I m residing at the moment in the middle east let me shed some light for you

Al means The.........but e.g Al Muizz is not a title......it is actually a family name.....we have for example here in middle east as Al Futtaim or Al Habtoor or Al Ghurair...these are actually FAMILY NAMES

So accordingly do u know what is Hazar Imams family name .............its Al HUSSAINI......as we all say but may have missed giving a thought on.........he belongs to Al Hussaini family .......al hussaini is not a title

I wud definately not like my name to b said in a different way however......even if they r recited as titles .......i dont about other ppls pyscho........so i m interested in the actual names of the Imam


thnks
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: hello Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:
nice to have your responses friends

Since I m residing at the moment in the middle east let me shed some light for you

Al means The.........but e.g Al Muizz is not a title......it is actually a family name.....we have for example here in middle east as Al Futtaim or Al Habtoor or Al Ghurair...these are actually FAMILY NAMES

So accordingly do u know what is Hazar Imams family name .............its Al HUSSAINI......as we all say but may have missed giving a thought on.........he belongs to Al Hussaini family .......al hussaini is not a title

I wud definately not like my name to b said in a different way however......even if they r recited as titles .......i dont about other ppls pyscho........so i m interested in the actual names of the Imam


thnks

well than all these imams should be referred to as Muhammed al Husseini right? not Muhammed al Baqr right?
according to my night school history..a lot of the imams from Mohammed ibn Ismail to about Imam Muizz were in Taqiyya..we don't know those names..we know the titles and that is what we refer to them as..i think that Daftary and also if you click on Ismaili History on your left..you will find the real names of the Imams as we know them.
Our dua was set by MHI and I am sure he knows why he has us reciting titles...

ShamsB
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19787

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: hello Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:
nice to have your responses friends

Al means The.........but e.g Al Muizz is not a title......it is actually a family name.....we have for example here in middle east as Al Futtaim or Al Habtoor or Al Ghurair...these are actually FAMILY NAMES

So accordingly do u know what is Hazar Imams family name .............its Al HUSSAINI......as we all say but may have missed giving a thought on.........he belongs to Al Hussaini family .......al hussaini is not a title

thnks


Yes you are right, in some cases it does imply family name and Al-Husayni would be a good example. The Arabs do take pride in their noble ancestry and in this respect they would like to characterize themselves according to their family 'laqab' or title. In this case it is not an individual title but family title.

In this respect all the Imams would be Al -Husayni. One could call Imam Mohammed Al Baqir as Mohammed Al Baqir Al Husayni. In this case the Imam has a family title of Al- Husayni in addition to his individual title of Al Baqir.
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yaaaahoooo



Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes u r right ......its definately because MHI has given us this dua that i m asking as to why the tariqah boards of india /pak and canada have the names written differently........and that has actually prompted me to find the exact names
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:
yes u r right ......its definately because MHI has given us this dua that i m asking as to why the tariqah boards of india /pak and canada have the names written differently........and that has actually prompted me to find the exact names


trust me it's not just the names of the imams that are different..a lot of other ceremonies/ginans are different...
Pak i can understand because of outside shariati muslim influence..part of the faith has to be in Taqiya..india..i can't..

The other reason i can think of the imam's name being said difference arises from people reciting dua..maybe someone was taught wrong..or heard wrong..or heard the pronounciation wrong and just kept going on reciting it that way..
to me..as long as the essence is there..the heart is there..the spirit is there..doesn't matter what one recites..as long as they don't knowingly make a mistake..doesn't make a problem for me.
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yaaaahoooo



Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first "taqiyah" period was after the 5th Imam ie

Ismail
Mohd Bin Ismail
Wafi Ahmad
Taqi Mohd
and Raziuddin Abdullah

These names dont look to me as TITLES....

Shamsu were the Imams Mohd Mehdi /Qayam/Mansoor/Muizz ever in taqiyaah.... ?????


shamsu can u clarify which Imams names come up as titles who were in taqiyah ?

And yes basically all the Imams are the descendants of Ali and Hussain so all r AL HUSSAINI ............for sure[/quote]
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yaaaahoooo



Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:
Pak i can understand because of outside shariati muslim influence..


First of all let me advise you that we ismailis r a part of the Ummah and we are muslims First........I get a feeling that u have a strong resistance to other tariqahs of Islam and dude u r definately making a big mistake of not respecting other Muslims

Last year the IIS had this colloquim in which all the other faith scholars were called to IIS and discussed Quran and its interpretation and if u read that Imams speech also it He mentions it that in the eyes of ALLAH no interpretation is wrong ........He forgives anyone who even wrongly interpretes the Quran........so who r u not to forgive other muslim faiths if
u think they r wrong........just dont judge ........if u like Chopra then read his seven spiritual laws and he says dont be judgemental....

This is the part of that HI speech

"This programme is also an opportunity for achieving insights into how the discourse of the Qur’an-e-Sharif, rich in parable and allegory, metaphor and symbol, has been an inexhaustible well-spring of inspiration, lending itself to a wide spectrum of interpretations. This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur'an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word."

heres the link of the webpage if u want

http://www.iis.ac.uk/learning/speeches_ak4/2003b.htm


Better change your attittude dude otherwise u r limiting yourself
[/url]
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19787

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:
The first "taqiyah" period was after the 5th Imam ie

Ismail
Mohd Bin Ismail
Wafi Ahmad
Taqi Mohd
and Raziuddin Abdullah

These names dont look to me as TITLES....]

Shamsu were the Imams Mohd Mehdi /Qayam/Mansoor/Muizz ever in taqiyaah.... ?????


According to Alwaez Abu Ali's book "A Brief History of Ismailism", Imam Wafi Ahmed's name was Abdullah. He was also called Ja'fer al-Musaddiq.

Imam taqi Mohd's name was Ahmed.

Imam Raziuddin Abdallah's name was Imam Husain bin Ahmed bin Abdallah.

Al-Mehdi was the title of Imam Mohd Al-Mehdi

Imam Mansoor's full name was Abu-Tahir Ismail Mansoor Billah

Imam Aziz's full name was Abu-Mansoor Nizar al-Aziz Billah.

Imam Al-Hakim's full name was Abu-Ali al-Husain al-Hakem Bi-Amrillah.

I hope this helps...
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yaaaahoooo



Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Kmaherali............gr8 help

however does imam muizz's period too comes under the first taqiyaah period?

Do u know of any other Imams actual full names from that book......


Unfortunately all my personal refernce books are left back home .....

Is the Nurum Mubin available on the net??......to refer to
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19787

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:
thanks Kmaherali............gr8 help

however does imam muizz's period too comes under the first taqiyaah period?

Do u know of any other Imams actual full names from that book......


Unfortunately all my personal refernce books are left back home .....

Is the Nurum Mubin available on the net??......to refer to
You are welcome!

Al Muizz's period was under the full glare (sunshine) of the Fatimid period.

Some more names..

Imam Muraad Mirza - Ali Shah also called Shah Murad.
Imam Nooruddin Ali - also called Sayyid Noor Shah
Imam Qasim Ali - also known as Agha jafer Shah

The rest of the Imams' names are as we recite them in Dua.

There is a section of Ismaili History. On the site map on the left of your screen, there is a link called Ismaili History under Ismaili News. Click and you will be there.
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yaaaahoooo



Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: hello Reply with quote

ShamsB wrote:

according to my night school history..a lot of the imams from Mohammed ibn Ismail to about Imam Muizz were in Taqiyya.....

ShamsB


well i was confused too.......maybe it was "slip of the fingers" on the keyboard .......shud b Mehdi nto muizz ......
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yaaaahoooo



Joined: 28 Sep 2003
Posts: 54

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:

Is the Nurum Mubin available on the net??......to refer to
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ShamsB



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 1118

PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yaaaahoooo wrote:
ShamsB wrote:
Pak i can understand because of outside shariati muslim influence..


First of all let me advise you that we ismailis r a part of the Ummah and we are muslims First........I get a feeling that u have a strong resistance to other tariqahs of Islam and dude u r definately making a big mistake of not respecting other Muslims

Last year the IIS had this colloquim in which all the other faith scholars were called to IIS and discussed Quran and its interpretation and if u read that Imams speech also it He mentions it that in the eyes of ALLAH no interpretation is wrong ........He forgives anyone who even wrongly interpretes the Quran........so who r u not to forgive other muslim faiths if
u think they r wrong........just dont judge ........if u like Chopra then read his seven spiritual laws and he says dont be judgemental....

This is the part of that HI speech

"This programme is also an opportunity for achieving insights into how the discourse of the Qur’an-e-Sharif, rich in parable and allegory, metaphor and symbol, has been an inexhaustible well-spring of inspiration, lending itself to a wide spectrum of interpretations. This freedom of interpretation is a generosity which the Qur'an confers upon all believers, uniting them in the conviction that All-Merciful Allah will forgive them if they err in their sincere attempts to understand His word."

heres the link of the webpage if u want

http://www.iis.ac.uk/learning/speeches_ak4/2003b.htm


Better change your attittude dude otherwise u r limiting yourself
[/url]


Now when did i talk about not forgiving other muslim tariqahs? or my attitude..all i said was each one of us is entitled to their own interpretation.
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curious1



Joined: 27 Oct 2004
Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is intended for Yahoooo, if you have some bones to pick with Shamsu then please create a new thread and argue with him directly. I see bunch of responses from you on all topics but they are mainly directed towards Shamsu. Why are you wasting other people's time? You obviously know how this board works. You are not arguing with him on Yahoogroups where we have option to delete messages.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:

Al Muizz's period was under the full glare (sunshine) of the Fatimid period.

The rest of the Imams' names are as we recite them in Dua.

There is a section of Ismaili History. On the site map on the left of your screen, there is a link called Ismaili History under Ismaili News. Click and you will be there.
I would like to correct myself. According to the Ismaili History section of this website, almost all the names of the Imams that we recite in our Dua are surnames or titles. The actual names are very different.

I think it is worthwhile referencing this section and know what the titles mean.
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