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Four type of Deedar
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alinizar313



Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:24 pm    Post subject: Four type of Deedar Reply with quote

Normally we say there are three type of deedar but what I think, it is four i,e Jismani, Zahiri, batini and Noorani.
Please discuss.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19753

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:13 am    Post subject: Jismani, Zaheri, Nurani, Batuni Deedar Reply with quote

You have raised an interesting issue. The following are my thoughts.

Deedar - Appearance (of HazarImam)
Jismani - Bodily or physical
Zaheri - apparent to all
batini - hidden to all except for the individual
Nurani - enlightened, spiritual

Jismani Deedar means appearance in the bodily physical form. In this kind of form he even appears to non-Ismailis.

Zaheri Deedar means that MHI appears in a form that is apparent to all i.e bodily manner, his photgraphs, videos, speeches, firmans, ginans, attending JK, in Dua, performing your religious duties etc. Jismani is an aspect (subset) of Zaheri deedar.

Batini Deedar means that he appears to an individual in a form that is not apparent to others eg. dreams, visions, miracles, feeling of total peace, love and contentment, intuition, revelation etc.

Noorani Deedar means a total experience of awe, wonder filled with peace, love and contentment felt by an individual with or without any Zaheri perspective It is something that is given and not acquired. Noorani Deedar is a subset of Batini Deedar. This is the Deedar that we all must aspire for. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah explains this experience in his memoirs as:

lbn-Rushd, the great Muslim philosopher, known to Europe as Averroes, established clearly the great distinction between two kinds of apprehensible human experience : on the one hand, our experience of nature as we recognize it through our senses, whence comes our capacity to measure and to count (and with that capacity all that it brought in the way of new events and new explanations); and on the other hand, our immediate and imminent experience of something more real, less dependent on thought or on the processes of the mind, but directly given to us, which I believe to be religious experience. Naturally, since our brain is material, and its processes and all the consequences of its processes are material, the moment that we put either thought or spiritual experience into words, this material basis of the brain must give a material presentation to even the highest, most transcendent spiritual experience. But men can study objectively the direct and subjective experiences of those who have had spiritual enlightenment without material intervention.
It is said that we live, move and have our being in God. We find this concept expressed often in the Koran, not in those words of course, but just as beautifully and more tersely. But when we realize the meaning of this saying, we are already preparing ourselves for the gift of the power of direct experience. Roumi and Hafiz, the great Persian poets, have told us, each in his different way, that some men are born with such natural spiritual capacities and possibilities of development that they have direct experience of that great love, that all-embracing, all-consuming love, which direct contact with reality gives to the human soil. Hafiz indeed has said that men like Jesus Christ and Muslim mystics like Mansour and Bayezid and others have possessed that spiritual power of the greater love; that any of us, if the Holy Spirit (*) ever present grants us that enlightenment, can, being thus blessed, have the power which Christ had, but that to the overwhelming majority of men this greater love is not a practical possibility. We can, however, make up for its absence from our lives by worldly, human love for individual human beings; and this will give us a measure of enlightenment attainable without the intervention of the Holy spirit. Those who have had the good fortune to know and feel this worldly, human love should respond to it only with gratitude and regard it as a blessing and as, in its own way, a source of pride. I firmly believe that the higher experience can to a certain extent be prepared for by absolute devotion in the material world to another human being. Thus from the most worldly point of view and with no comprehension of the higher life of the spirit, the lower, more terrestrial spirit makes us aware that all the treasures of this life, all that fame, wealth and health can bring are nothing beside the happiness which is created and sustained by the love of one human being for another. This great grace we can see in ordinary life as we look about us, among our acquaintances and friends.
But as the joys of human love surpass all that riches and power may bring a man, so does that greater spiritual love and enlightenment, the fruit of that sublime experience of the direct vision of reality which is God's gift and grace, surpass all that the finest, truest human love can offer. For that gift we must ever pray.
Now I am convinced that through Islam, through the idea of Allah, as presented by Muslims, man can attain this direct experience................ which no words can explain but which for him are absolute certainties. I have not discussed experience of this order with non-Muslims, but I have been told that Buddhists, Brahmins, Zoroastrians and Christians I have often not heard it of Jews, except perhaps Spinoza-have also attained this direct, mystical vision. I am certain that many Muslims, and I am convinced that I myself, have had moments of enlightenment and of knowledge of a kind which we cannot communicate because it is something given and not something acquired.

One can experience Noorani Deedar with Jismani Deedar i.e. one can have a feeling of peace, love and contentment in the physical presence of MHI. For example the following is the experience of Al Muayyad Shirazi's first physical encounter with Imam.

Al-Muayyad has given the following description of his vist to the Imam: "I was taken near the place wherefrom I saw the bringht light of the Prophet-hood. My eyes were dazzled by this Light. I shed the tears of joy and felt as if I was looking at the face of the Prophet of God and of the Commander of the Faithful, Ali. I prostrated myself before the one who is the fittest person for the people to bow to him. I wanted to say something but I was awe-struck. I could not move my tongue. I was dumb-founded. When I liftef my head up and gathered my witts some one from amongst those who were present there signalled me stand up. The Commander of the Faithfull, may God perpetuate his kingdom, snubbed the man by saying, "He is not bowing to you. He has not come to vist you." This gave me the courage and stayed there longer. I tried to speak but my tongue refused to move. People asked me to say what I had to say. I stood mum. The Imam said, "Leave him. Let his fear and awe subside." After this I stood up, took the holy hand of the Imam, placed it on my eyes and on my chest and kissed it and left the place filled with joy."

On the other hand if you do not have the recognition or knowledge of the Imam you can experience nothing besides seeing his physical body. In the above example Al Muayyad was awe struck and filled with joy whereas the others did not experience anything. The following anecdote in Rumi's life conveys this.

Sultan Valad, our Master's(Rumi's) son, recounted: "One day I said to my father, 'The friends claim that when they do not see you it causes them pain and their inner joy disappears.' My father replied, 'Whoever does not feel joyful in my abscence does not really know me; the one who really knows me feels happy even without me; he will be suffused with me, with the thought of me, with my thought,' He added, 'Every time, my son, that you find yourself in a state of mystic sweetness know that this is me in you.'" Sultan Valad added, "This is why my father used to say,

When you look for me, look in the district of joy;
We are the inhabitants of the world of joy. - AFLAKI (From "Teachings of Rumi" by Andrew Harvey)

One can also experience Noorani Deedar with Zaheri Deedar i.e when reciting Ginans, Dua, Farmans, MHI's speches and interviews and performing religious duties etc. if you are in tune with them. The following Ginan verse conveys this.

ejee geenaan bolo re neet noore bhariyaa evo haidde tamaare harakh na maye ji.........................1
Meaning - O momins! Recite (sing) Ginans which are full
of divine knowledge. Knowledge, so that your hearts will have boundless joy. ...1

One can experience MHI in dreams, visions or miracles of personal significance. These are all called Batuni Deedar. If they are accompanied by a sense of peace and love, than they can be called Noorani Batuni Deedar.

I hope this information stimulates further discussion on this subject.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:13 pm    Post subject: Deedar Reply with quote

Deedar means to nestle someone in our eyes. (aankho mein samana)

Deedar of Imam

I think there is only one Deedar because everything you describe is of this world.

Deedar is only Noorani and that is beyond description, beyond language, above all else.

and because of that it is futile to even discuss it.

I have believed that Alakh means that, about whom written description is impossible.

YAM

Shams
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19753

PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Deedar Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:

Deedar is only Noorani and that is beyond description, beyond language, above all else.



So how do you understand the term Zaheri Deedar when mentioned in our tradition. Is it of no meaning or significance?

Why would Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah discuss it in his memoirs if it is beyond description?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19753

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:30 am    Post subject: Zaheri Nurani Deedar Reply with quote

This is an example of Zaheri Nurani Deedar that occured recently during MHI's visit to Toronto.

During Hazar Imams recent visit to Toronto Dolly
> >had a very special moment. Your prayers and good
> >wishes have always been with us and we would like to
> >share the special moment with you. We do not have the
> >email addresses of all our frieds so if you feel like
> >sharing this with friends and family please do so
> >Dolly started Chemo this week
> >
> >All our love and mumbaraki
> >
> >Dolly and Shiraz Sachedina
> >
> >
> > > EPIPHANY
> > > My Incredible Moment
> > >
> > > I am documenting my special moment very soon after
> > > it happened for a variety of reasons:
> > > a.. so that the passage of time does not cloud
> my memories
> > > b.. if this event is retold I do not wish that the
> > > facts be distorted in any manner which invariably
> > > happens when descriptions are passed orally
> > > c.. and most important so that i can share this
> > > moment with my children (inshallah someday with my
> > > grandchildren), my family, my friends and my fellow
> > > cancer patients with an ardent prayer that this
> > > event inspire them as much as it has inspired me.
> > > The Context
> > > My name is Dolatkhanu (Dolly) Shiraz Sachedina.
> > > I am a mature woman with a husband and two grown children. My
> > > personal belief system is that all faiths, Islamic or otherwise
> > > eventually lead to the
> > > same "Allah" and no one faith is any more right than
> > > any other. I have also got this habit that whenever
> > > I am alone, whatever I am doing, cooking, cleaning,
> > > walking, or just sitting, I will always be saying a
> > > tasbih - more often than not it will be the
> > > "Salwaat" or the "Bibi Fatima Tasbih".
> > > As I alluded to earlier, I am a cancer patient
> > > with my first diagnosis in 1989. At that time the
> > > doctor gave me 5 years to live. It has been 15
> > > years. I have had breast cancer, throat cancer, and
> > > now there is a tumor right on the spine at the top
> > > of the neck which makes it unoperable as the chances
> > > of paralysis are very high.
> > > On June 15 2004 after a series of tests a few
> > > days previously my doctor gave me the news that the
> > > pain which had been steadily increasing over the
> > > last few months was due to the tumor increasing in
> > > size. The tumor was in a growth mode and the pain
> > > would keep increasing. Unless something was done
> > > the tumor threatened the quality of life and
> > > eventually life itself. He recommended Chemotherapy
> > > which he knew I did not want to take but he said
> > > there was a new drug coming out. he needed
> > > persmission from the Ministry of Health to use it
> > > and there was a substantial cost which would have to
> > > be borne by us. For those of you who know me well
> > > know that we have had severe financial reverses
> > > recently and "substantial cost" was the kiss of
> > > death to this option.
> > > On June 17th in the evening one of my son's
> > > friend's Mom - Mrs Prabha Gandhi - called me to lend
> > > her support in my trials and knowing my personal
> > > belief systems invited me to go along with her the
> > > next day to Chicago where her Devimaa was visiting
> > > and Prabha believed that she had healing powers.
> > > When I told her that my Guru, My Khudavind was also
> > > in town she asked me why I did not go see him and
> > > get blessed. I told her that the true "deedar" of
> > > the guru is a matter of "takdeer" and if it was
> > > meant to happen it will happen.
> > >
> > > The Encounter
> > > On June 18 2004 I was at our store in First
> > > Canadian Place. I was in alot of pain and feeling
> > > very depressed. When it was time for me to go to
> > > the store in TD Centre I decided to take a few extra minutes and
> > > walk outside rather than use the tunnel
> > > (PATH) which I normally do. I told the counter girl
> > > that I would like to walk outside and admire the
> > > lord's creations. I went outside and stopped for a
> > > few minutes in front of the fountain as running
> > > water always seems to have a soothing effect on me.
> > > I walked down York Street crossed Wellington Street
> > > and turned left on the south sidewalk of Wellington
> > > Street. At the southeast corner of York and
> > > Wellington stands The Toronto Club. For those of
> > > you not familiar with Toronto, this club is the
> > > oldest private club in Toronto and a bastion of the Canadian
> > > Establishment with membership limited to the elite powerbrokers of
> > > Canadian Society.
> > At 8:45 am as I was walking on the sidewalk
> > (saying the salwaat as usual) a limo pulled up at
> > the front door of The Toronto Club and the chauffer
> > stepped out to open the passenger door. I stepped
> > back so as not to get in his way. He opened the
> > door and his passenger stepped out. It was none
> > other than Khudavind Noor Mowlana Shah Karim
> > Al-Husseiny Hazar Imam. Hazar Imam was no more than
> > three feet away. I was stunned. My eyes were like saucers, my
> > mouth fell open. Instinctively the salwaat I was reciting under my
> > breath came out loudly - Allahuma swali alla Mohamedin wa aale
> > Mohamed - Hazar Imam looked me straight in the eyes,
> > raised both his hands in blessing. As he looked at
> > me, it was as if millions and millions of volts of
> > electricity were flowing through my body. He
> > smiled, all I saw was a brightness. I was rooted to
> > the spot. Tears of joy were streaming down my
> > face. It was a while before I could bring down
> > myself back to earth. By then he was inside the
> > building. The encounter took no more than a few
> > seconds but in those few seconds everything changed.
> >
> > The Effect
> > He left me standing on the sidewalk but Hazar
> > Imam left me with an incredible sense of wellbeing.
> > He left me with an incredible sense of optimism and
> > He left me with an incredible sense of being loved.
> > I know that my Mowla loves me, he loves me
> > individually, he loves me personally, and he loves
> > me unconditionally.
> > This life that I have, with all its pain and
> > suffering is a gift, a blessing, from Him and I will
> > do everything to sustain.
> > I will fight this cancer that is growing in me
> > I will fight this cancer that is consuming me
> > I will fight this cancer with conventional therapies
> > I will fight this cancer with alternate therapies
> >
> > and Inshallah
> >
> > I WILL BE WELL!
> >
>
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karimqazi



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 78
Location: Houston, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya Ali Madad Dolly and Shiraz Sachedina

Thank you for sharing your personal didar with us.

Tears of joy ran down my eyes while I read your experience of didar.

Sister, remember you are not the only one in this world who has been given a test from Mowla. Keep continuing your tasbih and salwath and you will see a miracle yourself. I will keep you in my tasbih to mowla baapa and you will be soon a cured person. Keep faith in Shah Karim.

Thank you again and mubarak baadi

Karim Qazi
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_thaillestlunatic_



Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:47 am    Post subject: deedar in toronto Reply with quote

YAM to all
hope everyone is fine

WOW kmaherali tears are falling down my eyes with joy
heres my personal encounter with my beloved, khudawind Shah Karim
2 friends of mine and I arrive at Queens park 1.5 hours before MHI is expected to arrive. 1.5 hours later MHI car passes by turning left from
University Avenue into Queens park Legislative Building, Immediately I ran and MHI opens the door and exits and waves to his murids looking me straight in the eye. I couldn't believe it I was so happy I NEVER EVER felt so much happier in my life. Waiting for his meetings to conclude, 45 mins later he exits Legislative Building, I see him staring at us all and so happy. He enters his car and my friend and I run to the corner of the road where he was going to turn. His car passes by and immediately I fell to the ground and prostrated before Mawlana Hazar Imam, as the car turns I cud see him through the TINTED windows and he smiles. Wow I can't explain im in tears. It was a BLESSING AND PRIVILEDGE to see him. For all who didn't see him, I pray all of you will see him in the deedar to come.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Deedar Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shamsu wrote:

Deedar is only Noorani and that is beyond description, beyond language, above all else.



So how do you understand the term Zaheri Deedar when mentioned in our tradition. Is it of no meaning or significance?

Why would Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah discuss it in his memoirs if it is beyond description?




I think the Zaheri Deedar is an event in which we, in a state of identifying with the Zaheri body observe the Imams Noor at a physical level.

In Batuni deedar we experience the Noor of Mowla with our Batuni eyes. I believe the Batuni eyes to be the eye of the Intellect. This Deedar can also be done with our ears and in our thoughts

Noorani Deedar is above all else, beyond description. It is futile to talk about it.

Shams
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alinizar313



Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:03 pm    Post subject: Deedar Reply with quote

Deedar means to see. It serves two purpose.. Love and Intellect. And deedar is purely an esoteric aspect of our tariqa. If dua and Dasond (not batuni dasond) are two primary duty on Shariati level, Similarly Love (Ibadat) and Intellect are two basics on Haqiqati level. First when we see some beautiful (here beauty regards to moral qualities) things, it produces Love in one's heart. Love is directly related to Beauty (Husn in Urdu). How can you love someone when you never see it. " Mowla Ali e firmayu ke khuda ne na jovu tau ibadat parn na keru" (KIM 1). Secondly when we see, it reveals something which was unknown to us, it uncovers hidden into menifestation. And ultimately it unfold the knowledge about which we are ignorant. Therefore the combination of these two qualities or purpose of deedar help us to reach to our ultimate goal.
It is right that the actual deedar is Noorani Deedar but it does not mean that others have no importance. Because we are not divine right now, we are just human being , we take avtar, what we perceive now is only physical existence or matter around us and that is why mowla has to come in this world to take human body for our salvation. And he talks to us in the language we able to comprehend. "Santwan Aasman thi ame fakat temare rooh ne chootkara mataiy awiya chhiye" ( KIM 1). We have to go through these levels of
Deedar before reaching to final goal.

Jismani deedar/ Zaheri Deedar : When Mowla comes for Deedar Physically, we see his eyes,face, body, height, clothes, his appearance (including smiling, happiness on his face etc). Believe me it is nothing to do with Roohaniyat. Because what we did , we just see the physical body and gesture and this will come under Jismani Deedar. This deedar is same as we see mowla in some private meetings or gatherings because our intent is to just see jhalak of mowla bapa but....but........ this jismani deedar can be converted into Zaheri deedar no matter mowla is in pendal or in some private meetings if the Momin just look at Him and take the whole in his heart , close the eyes and feel the whole being in himself but again this is not enough because here we are missig one important thing, Have we ever think what is most important when mowla comes for deedar and without that, deedar does not complete. That is "FIRMAN". So the only thing in between Jismani and Zaheri deedar is only Firman. If we understand or try to understand what mowla says in his firman, it completes the Zaheri deedar.
Batini/ Noorani Deedar: When we understand the esoteric aspect of firman and we act perfectly according to firman or we can say , our Amal or act becomes firman ( One of the roop/form of Imam) with the help of selfless remeberance of Ism-e-Azam then we will know who am I? What is Rooh? From where it comes and where will it rerurn? When this thing happen then real Love or Ishq starts flourishing And that is called Batini Deedar. "Man araf nafsahu faqad arab rabbahu". One who knows himself, knows Allah. And this stage is called Mairaj. And according to firman of S.M.S. it is also called "Aazadi".At this stage the knowledge does not exist as it merges in Sat Shabd. Because knowledge came out from Sat shabd therefor it will go back to his origion
" Aad thaki soon, soon ma thi shabd, shabd ma thi Shan (Aql) ". Now the real journey starts and here you do not have to do any effort it will go bt natural course. Even after acheiving noorani deedar, the Momin does not sit idle. Now he helps mowla in batin. His hand becomes mowla's hands, his tongue becomes Mowls's tongue.And then Momin Literally says that " JIyan joiye chhiye tiyan roohdost ne joiye chhiye".

As far as dream is concerned, S.M.S said in his firman " Amaiy koina sapna ma nathi avata, je kahaiy chhaiy ke amaiy sahib ne sapna ma joiya te khotu bolaiy chhaiy"
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19753

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:05 am    Post subject: Re: Deedar Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
Noorani Deedar is above all else, beyond description. It is futile to talk about it.

Shams
Noorani Deedar while being beyond words and description has a very profound and enduring impact upon an individual experiencing it. It results in a sense of peace, tranquility, contentment, love, strength and well being regardless of the external circumstances. Allusions to the grandeur and majesty of this experience abound in mystical poetry including the Ginans. For example in the following verses of the Ginan "Jire vala Dhan re Ghadi" Seyyed Mohammad Shah says.

jire vaalaa dhan re ghaddee jo din sa(n)t padhaaryaa
alee ma(n)i taa din kee balee haaree
re vaalaa ghar aa(n)gann maaraa pavitra keedhaa
moro jeev janam sadhaaree re vaalaa
dhan re ghaddee jo din sa(n)t padhaaryaa....1
jire vaalaa - dear brothers
balee haaree - offering, sacrifice
sadhaaree(sudhaaree) - improve

Dear brothers, happy and glorious was the momemt when the Saint(Guide) visited me. I offered sacrifices to Ali on that day. Brothers, this made my house and it's precinct holy and improved the condition of my soul(elevated it). Happy was the moment when the Saint(Guide) visited me.

jire vaalaa jaan ajaan bhaye kirataar th
saadh sabhaa sukh kaaree re vaalaa
paaras parshe, lohaa rang palatte
to jag mag jot ujaaree re vaalaa
dhan re ghaddee jo din sa(n)t padhaaryaa....2
saadh - enlightened person
sabhaa - gathering; (morning?)

Dear brothers, knowingly and unknowingly, I embraced the Creator. In the company of the enlightened person I experienced peace and joy(was transformed). Brother this was in a manner of the philosopher's stone transforming the colour of iron. The twinkling and flashing of the Light uplifted(enlightened) my mind. Brother, happy was the moment when the Saint(Guide) visited me.

The enlightenment and transformation of individuals benefit and uplift societies. That's the reason Sufism in general and Ismailism in particular have played major roles in the revival of Islamic societies in the past. In my opinion, it is only through Sufism that Islamic socities will be revived and any meaningful progress will be achieved at present and in the future.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: Deedar Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shamsu wrote:
Noorani Deedar is above all else, beyond description. It is futile to talk about it.

Shams
Noorani Deedar while being beyond words and description has a very profound and enduring impact upon an individual experiencing it. It results in a sense of peace, tranquility, contentment, love, strength and well being regardless of the external circumstances.


YAM K,

If we are going to embark upon this futile mission let me say a few things.

In moti venti and BrahmPrakash it is mentioned

aap mit nij aap samay

in another ginan it is mentioned

sarita saher ma samani

Noorani deedar involves an experience of annihilation. In that case where is the experiencer, his hasti has become nabood. When there is no longer a person to experience deedar how can there be any description or experience of Deedar.

You say do Dhikr

I say thats impossible

Dhikr means rememberance

You can only remember, when you have forgotten.

So Dhikr is impossible for he who did not forget in the first place

Hence that which you think is the most important thing for noorani deedar is an impossibility when you think like this.

OK

Another Ginan states

Yeh to maati ke putle, jisae mai japau jaap.

So how can we ever do noorani deedar.

It is him doing the Deedar of himself.

Where did we get involved in this.

Hence Noorani deedar is above all else, especially our indentified selves.

Talking about it doesnt work.

SHAMS
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19753

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: Deedar Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:

If we are going to embark upon this futile mission let me say a few things.


Hence Noorani deedar is above all else, especially our indentified selves.

Talking about it doesnt work.

SHAMS


YAM Shamsh,

If talking about it does not work, how are people to know about it? How will they be inspired to seek it? Why do poets allude to that experience if it is futile? Why does Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah discuss it at length in his memoirs?
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:42 am    Post subject: Usefulness Reply with quote

This is interesting,

I am looking at the parts of my post you did not comment upon. I find that interesting.

Our Imam Shah Karin Al-Husayni has made Baitul Khayal firmans where he has clearly mentioned that - you will fail to communicate about it and --it is impossible for you to describe it. He has also made Farmans asking us to not talk about it.--to not discuss it---etc

I think doing things that your Imam had clearly mentioned you will fail at, is an exercise in futility.

How can I discuss something which is above me, my intellect, my mind, above this world.

Do you think discussing some thing which is above this world, in this world, is going to achieve anything.


Things were a lot different during the time of Imam SMS. He used to ask murids to describe their experiences with the entire jamat present.

49th Imam has been very specific about this issue.



Our faith is practiced in our thoughts.

Talking is of this world.

lets see if we can get to that state where "Bolanhar niranjan so he"

Niranjan can decide to talk about it through his chosen ones.


YAM

Shams
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:20 am    Post subject: Deedar Experience Vs After Effects Reply with quote

It is interesting indeed!

As I have mentioned that before, the experience itself cannot be articulated but the benefits that it confers to a successful individual can. And this is what MSMS discusses in his memoirs.

I am talking about HazarImam saying that it will give you strength, it will give you happiness unlike anything you have known, it will keep you on siratul mustaqeem permanently.

Otherwise why would you want to seek it if it has no benefit to you.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Deedar Reply with quote

alinizar313 wrote:
As far as dream is concerned, S.M.S said in his firman " Amaiy koina sapna ma nathi avata, je kahaiy chhaiy ke amaiy sahib ne sapna ma joiya te khotu bolaiy chhaiy"
Thank you for this useful information!
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_thaillestlunatic_



Joined: 21 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YAM to all,
wouldn't it be so awesome to receive 4 deedars... AT THE SAME TIME??
isnt it possible???

Please don't hesitate to give feedback

Thanks,

---------------
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kmaherali



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Posts: 19753

PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:
YAM to all,
wouldn't it be so awesome to receive 4 deedars... AT THE SAME TIME??
isnt it possible???

Please don't hesitate to give feedback

Thanks,

---------------


Yes, in my opinion the experience of Dolly was close to that.
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_thaillestlunatic_



Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

then wudn't my experience at queens park or U OF T
been the same?
kmaherali do u live in toronto??

Ya Ali Madat

---------
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:
then wudn't my experience at queens park or U OF T
been the same?
kmaherali do u live in toronto??

Ya Ali Madat

---------


That is something you have to determine. As MHI has said "You will know it".

I live in Calgary

YAM
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 9:21 am    Post subject: Best and Worst? Reply with quote

Which is the best and which is the worst?

In my opinion Nurani is the best because it can happen anywhere and at anytime with or without appropriate Zaheri conditions. All you need is a clean heart.

The worst is Jismani because:
- It is rare. You may have to wait for years, decades or centuries for that to take place.
- If it involves travelling, it can be expensive and troublesome.
- Physical contact with the Imam can confuse you about his identity. He could appear as a businessman or a race horse owner or an investor etc.
- Even non-Ismailis have access to it.

What do you think?
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 5:44 pm    Post subject: Goal Reply with quote

Dudes and dudettes,

What is your goal in life (existance)

Fix your gaze on it, unwavering, steady as a huge rock on flat land.

The first thing to do is to clarify that Goal.

I think that Goal should be to reach assal makan.

Noorani Deedar is all that matters dont get distracted with all the other drama and emotion.

Shams
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from_Origin



Joined: 03 Jun 2003
Posts: 28
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Deedar Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:

YAM K,

If we are going to embark upon this futile mission let me say a few things.

In moti venti and BrahmPrakash it is mentioned

aap mit nij aap samay

in another ginan it is mentioned

sarita saher ma samani

OK

Another Ginan states

Yeh to maati ke putle, jisae mai japau jaap.


Shams, great arguments. Can you please help others understand the Ginans which you quote by including, as best as possible, their English translation, so that at least a jist of the meaning is grasped?

Thanks!
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alinizar313



Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:
then wudn't my experience at queens park or U OF T
been the same?
kmaherali do u live in toronto??

Ya Ali Madat

---------

I think it is not possible to experience all four didar at the same time. Actually it is
four level and you can experience only one at a time. The sequence is Jismani then Zahiri, batini and last one is Noorani. Jismani is Jismani but when you experience the zaheri deedar, the former one that is jismani will automatically be merged in the later one (Zaheri). And so on... When one experiences Noorani Deedar, the other three will merge in the Noorani and we will conceive only Noorani deedar. Simple is that if we are visualizing the Noorani Deedar and at the same time experiencing Zaheri deedar then the former one ceases to exist because we divert our attention from Noorani.
As far as the incident occurred with Dolly is concerned and thinking that she did the Noorani deedar, I can tell you that it is just the matter between Murid and Murshid. We run after the car of MHI and Mowla look at us and we think that we get the deedar especially the Noorani one, doesn’t look practical. There are some pre-requisite to attain that level. We should ask ourselves honestly. Are my action just like firman or become firman? Do I fulfil all my religious obligation? Do I regularly say my prayers and BUK bandagi?. No doubt about that we are crazy to run after Imam’s car or just to see his one glimpse and it shows our love for our Imam but still we are very very far away from our actual goal. Real love means Firmanbardari and one can judge oneself that where he stands. If one experiences Noorani deedar, he can’t say anybody and if he says means he still lives at animal level, he lives in fool’s paradise. As far as Pir Shams (in Braham Parkash) and Pir Sadardin (in Booj Nirinjan) describing their experiences is concerned, it is only for us to get benefit from that knowledge and experience only, not to show-up.And also they were told by Mowla to do so.
“Goongaiy sapna paaya samaj samaj pachhtaiy” (Booj Nirinjan)

Deedar amaro doailo taima ghantiyoon chhaiy apaar,
Ek ek ghanti mahen soor soor chowk chhaiy
Te bin khamiya na awaiy saath (Salok Moto)

Even Zaheri deedar can be experiencd in Baitul Khayal Bandagi. “Jaiy amaara zaheri deedar ni talab raakhe chhe te Ibadat ma joi shakaae chhaiy” (BUK)
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_thaillestlunatic_



Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
No doubt about that we are crazy to run after Imam’s car or just to see his one glimpse and it shows our love for our Imam but still we are very very far away from our actual goal.

YAM, all and Imamat Day Mubarak
what is this trying to imply?
and I didn't run after his car. And the "crazyness" you are talking about is MY unwavering love and affection to the only one I got in life that can ALWAYS, hamesha be there for me PHYSICALLY and NON PHYSICALLY, listens to me when things aren't great etc... It was in my dil to go n prostrate before him. Anyways, couldn't one had experienced all the levels of deedar. I saw him physically 3 feet away....I closed my eyes and he appeared, and I didn't just see a body there was WAY more to it. The love, the CRAZE that was in my heart is unexplainable so I won't even attempt. But with Dolly's expeience she received all 4 levels of deedar in my opinion

----------------
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nuseri



Joined: 12 Jul 2012
Posts: 1377

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Didar from a sufi point of view.

Har dum Moula maraa Didar mahee reehjo jee.(which Pir wrote it?)It is pure Marfat

Zahiri Didar of ALI can be as seeing him as Imam(tariqati) or seeing him as GOD(haqiqati),it does makes a lot of difference in your personal experience of that Didar time with HIM.for the former one's it is QIYAMA UL QIYAMA.

Baatin Didar is NOT what you see him in your dreams.You SEE Imam of the time in person physically.(in his white Didar dress) it is for a few seconds.A unforgettable experience.
you see HIM in a person whom you admire or even thru a person doing
Shah jo Didar with you or thru Mukhi.
Noorani Didar is an intellectual blessing of his Noor, which is said to be 7th level of Intellect.Which the Pirs n revered Dai were blessed with.It was Like in modern lingo defination
ALI ALWAYS ONLINE, REAL TIME BASIS. 24X7.
I am signing off with:
Ahmed ALI ALI boliyaa.
Peche honi hoi so hoi ree
Peche honi hoi so hoi ree
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nuseri



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I could amend it after posting.Please read 'the former one' As lateral ones with Haqiqati Ehsaas'
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excerpts from Isma’ili Modern – Jonah Steinberg [Author]

Another practice key to the formation of a transnational Ismaili sense of commonality and shared experience, and one that deserves more attention, is that of didar, which translate loosely from Persian as “audience” (as with a king), or “vision,” which for Ismailis is a peak experience and the subject of numerous narratives. Marsden (2005) writes that “‘catching a glimpse’ (deedar korik) of the Aga Khan is a moment when Ismailis feel themselves to be in the presence of ‘spiritual truth’ (haqiqat); and it is a religious event that is without comparison for Ismaili Muslims”. The didar consists of a formal religious ceremony in which the imam visits a certain area and addresses his adherents. During the address, the imam provides guidance and advice, often relating to the political situation of the community in a certain area, or to proper behavior, to his followers. For many Ismailis, it is a dream to be attained, a goal more valued than any other; this is the moment of contact with the imam, the holiest living person and the intermediary between God and humans. Ismailis see didar as a transformative and pivotal moment in their lives.

The didar narrative of a Badakhshani woman, Zuhro, demonstrates well the level of devotion and loyalty that is given to the imam. Zuhro is a member of an old Badakhshani elite and now works for the provincial government. She described with great emotion the didar as one of the highlights of her life, a peak experience. She waited on the airport tarmac for his arrival Upon seeing him she wept profusely and tried to hide. She searched for English words to say to him as he came to speak to her, and stumbling over her words, finally came out with “all the best!” Afterwards, however, she was struck with intense anxiety over the meaning of “all the best” and realized she didn’t know what she had said or what it meant. She was suddenly regretful. Ultimately, however, she expressed a sense of having received a blessing from heaven and an entirely extraordinary experience. Didar is also important because it is for Ismailis a religious experience unmediated, or less mediated, by institutional process and bureaucracy. For Zuhro, the didar was the “jewel of [her] life.”



Excerpts from Isma'ili Modern - Jonah Steinberg (Author)
Didar in Hunza, October 23, 1960


Among the earliest texts discussing the Ismaili didar is the Pandiyat-i Jawanmardi, the advice of Imam Mustansir biillah II, dating from the late 1400s. This Imam emphasized the didar/voyage and audience as one of the most important religious duties and experiences (Daftary 1990: 469). In didar (as in Hindu darshan) it is significant both that the devotee see the imam and that the imam see his devotees; to the devotee it is a powerful blessing. Ismailis also believe that there can be a nonphysical didar, in which subjects’ can attain a mental or spiritual vision of the imam in his ideal form. This emerges out of the Ismaili division of the world into internal and external phenomena, as discussed in relation to tawil, zahir, and batin. Thus even Ismailis who are not able to receive the worldly didar can receive the blessing of an inner didar in which the Imam appears to them in their prayers. The Ismaili notion of a “physical didar” is thus contrasted with a didar in the mind’s eye; it is assumed that even Ismailis who do not have the privilege of a direct experience will be paid a spiritual visit by the imam. Ismailis in Tajik Badakhshan spoke frequently of their inner vision of the Imam, even during their long “isolation,” before his first official visit after the break-up of the Soviet Union.

Besides the subjective experience of didar, the ritual also has a wider global social significance. Narratives of the power of didar are found across Ismaili regional cultures, from Syria to the United Kingdom. It is described as fantastical, as a dazzling spectacle, by its witnesses. The ritual form followed is largely the same everywhere. For this reason, and because of its intensity, didar, like some of the other religious rituals discussed, is important in the formation of a shared Ismaili global identity and of Ismaili personal identity; as a public speech event, a face-to-face interaction between the imam and his subjects, didar is a critical discursive moment. It provides an unparalleled encounter in which Ismailis can formulate their own sense of themselves as Ismailis and a central emblematic symbol around which this subjective identity can be formed. But it has an even wider social implication in the transnational context. The experience, because of its intensity and uniformity, becomes a focal point not only within any given local Ismaili community but also across global Ismaili cultures. Thus, like other shared religious experiences, didar acts as a critical process in the formation of a global sense of connection and simultaneity.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one can receive the Didar of Mawla Murtaza Ali S.A. and yet, you as members of our Jamat are graced with Mawlana Ali's S.A. Didar everyday. (Mumbai, September 25, 1885)

After our departure do not think of the Imam as being absent. You must consider us to be Ever-Present. We cannot always remain with you physically, but you must consider us to be present spiritually. We are always Ever-Present before you. (Zanzibar, July 30, 1899)

You must continuously make an effort to strengthen your Imam. We are always with you. Whenever you remember us we are Ever-Present before you. We reside within your hearts. (Kachh Kera, February 2, 1903)
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Admin



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See also

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=60847#60847
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1110

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion Deedar is of only two kinds. Zahiri deedar and batini Deedar. Zahiri Deedar is when Imam happily comes to jamaits and is declared by council or leadership that Imam is willingly and happily wants to grant (physical) Deedar.
Batini Deedar is through general Ibadat, particular Zikr on own by repeating any Attribute name Allah or Imam (murdhid) gives any one name of Allah from Quran and living a pure life without sins. Still batini Deedar is very difficult as MSMS said:

JIYAR SUDHI MANAS JEEVTO CHHEYTIYAR SUDHI NOOR NU PAANI HAATH AAVI SHAKTO NATHI. (KIM)
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