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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - VISHNU, BHRAMA and SHIVA
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VISHNU, BHRAMA and SHIVA
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karam-e-khuda



Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:03 am    Post subject: VISHNU, BHRAMA and SHIVA Reply with quote

Since Hindu believes in trinity VISHNU, BHRAMA and SHIVA but from our ginanic literature Vishnu is our mowla, Bhrama is our pir, so can you please tell me what is the role of Shiva(Maheswar) in our religion?plz reply your answer about shiva
Since I have heard that in old ghaat paat dua the above three names (VISHNU, BHRAMA and SHIVA) are mentioned but i am not sure as i have not seen it,
if any one has a copy of ghaat paat dua plz send me even if it is in khojki or gujrati
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Imam represents all the three attributes . Sometimes the Imam decides to appoint a Pir to act in the capacity of the Bhrama, otherwise he is all the three at once.
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karam-e-khuda



Joined: 18 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but i asked this type of questions from my seniors and they answered me that the role of Shiva in our religion is MALAK-UL-MOT or HAZRAT ADAM aleh salam
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1666

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hindus mostly worship Vishnu or/and Shiva. Brahma is not worshipped as such. There are hardly two to three temples of Brahma in entire India.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1666

PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for Malak-ul-mout, it = Yamraj or Yamdood
Shiva is often said as the destroyer of the universe.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1666

PostPosted: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shiva is Adam. There are much details about it in book Nooren Allah Noor. You can read and download the book from ismaili.net.
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per "Shiv Puran" a very interesting book I just finished has 6 parts and more than 600 pages ,which is available in English and other Indian languages from India, I would refer to read this book if you really want to know who were Brahma,Vishnu and Shiva? What is their job? how the earth was created? why this universe was created? What is Avatars( incarnation) and who were 8 Incarnation who did they fought with? why they Kill the devil forces? Unfortunately in this book there is not much information available about 9 the incarnation Boudha Avatar.
According this book:-
Brahma is a creater of the whole world, (As per Ginan Prophet Mohammed PBUH)
Vishnu:-[/size] takes birth to kill devil forces or devil peoples( Rakshas or Asur) which give trouble to the God's devotee (Bhakta) and Vishnu already took 9 incarnation,as per this bookd 10th incarnation of vishnu still has to come, ( As per our ginan we Ismaili beleive that this 10th incarnation is Mowla Ali,)


Shiva:-also call Rudra,Shankar, Mahadev,Pashupati Nath,Bhola Bhagvan,Mahesh e.t.c.) we can tell shiva Malikul Mot, is performing destruction job, if he hadn't done his job till now, then it would not have any place to put a step on this earth.
[size=9]
[size=18]
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TheMaw



Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Posts: 106

PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maliku l-Mawti or Malaku l-Mawti? The first is "king", the second is "angel", and the two are not related words, just sound alike. (Maliku < verb malaka "to own", malaku < mal'aku < verb la'aka)
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arif_momin



Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A granth by Pir Sadrdin (Tu Munivar Bhai or if i am not mistaken also called Momin Chetvani) mentions about the story of creation and role of Vishnu, Brahma and Mahesh. As per the Ginan Vishnu is Mowla Ali, and Brahma- Nabi Muhammad, Mahesher or Shiva is Adam.To munivar bhai<?>Taare Sri Vishnu te var dataar Ane mahesher murat sirji tenee Te to Hazrat Adam no avataar re.<>I came to know o&shy;n o&shy;ne account that Vishnu is Creator, Brahma The sustainer and Mahesher the Destroyer. This is the Hindu trio of three major characterstics of God.But same we can compare in Islam and Christanity.&nbsp;If we read Sura fateha it also says <BR>Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds (in some translation creator is mentioned in place of Cherisher as word Rub has many meanings)<BR>Most Gracious, Most Merciful; <BR>Master of the Day of Judgment<BR>So it too indicates towards Creation, Sustenance and Destruction. <BR>In Christanity it is said In the name of Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost, indicating towards Creator (father), Son (Christ the sustainer) and Holy Ghost (Malikul Mawt)[/img]

Last edited by arif_momin on Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total
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arif_momin



Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

28- To munivar bhai
Taare Sri Vishnu te var dataar ji thaya,
Ane mahesher murat sirji tenee vaar,
Te to maaya na naabh kamal mahe(n) thee paida kariya,
Te to Hazrat Adam no avataar re.
[/img]
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hussainkhan55



Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 45

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Imam represents all the three attributes . Sometimes the Imam decides to appoint a Pir to act in the capacity of the Bhrama, otherwise he is all the three at once.

Who said this 2 you bro??
Logically speaking, Shiva should be a PERSON manifested as that particular aspect of God like Vishnu and Brahma were.
Vishnu being manifested as Imam while Brahma as the Prophet and Pirs.
HE MUST BE LIVING AMONGST US and not yet died like ADAM. By this, I dont want to imply that Nauuuzibillah Adam is not shiva but on the contrary i just want to indicate that there might be a living manifestation of Shiva even today.
In ramayana it has been mentioned that Ram was Vishnu, Vashist the Brahma and Hanuman or HArmat the Shiva ....
So there might be a living Shiva in some point or the other ....
Who is it?
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shiraz.virani



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 1234

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In some other Hindu denominations, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva represent the three primary aspects of the divine in Hinduism and are collectively known as the Trimurti. In this school of religious thought, Brahma is the creator, Vishnu is the maintainer or preserver, and Shiva is the destroyer or transformer

well it is very strange because even christians believe in trinity , FATHER/SON/HOLYSPIRIT

How the persona of Shiva converged as a composite deity is not well documented. Axel Michaels explains the composite nature of Shaivism as follows:

Like Visnu, shiva is also a high god, who gives his name to a collection of theistic trends and sects: &#346;aivism. Like Vai&#351;&#326;avism, the term also implies a unity which cannot be clearly found either in religious practice or in philosophical and esoteric doctrine. Furthermore, practice and doctrine must be kept separate


Third eye: Shiva is often depicted with a third eye, with which he burned Desire (K&#257;ma) to ashes. There has been controversy regarding the original meaning of Shiva's name Tryambakam (Sanskrit: &#2340;&#2381;&#2352;&#2381;&#2351;&#2350;&#2381;&#2348;&#2325;&#2350;&#2381;), which occurs in many scriptural sources. In classical Sanskrit, the word ambaka denotes "an eye", and in the Mahabharata, Shiva is depicted as three-eyed, so this name is sometimes translated as "having three eyes". However, in Vedic Sanskrit, the word amb&#257; or ambik&#257; means "mother", and this early meaning of the word is the basis for the translation "having three mothers" that was used by Max Müller and Arthur Macdonell. Since no story is known in which Shiva had three mothers, E. Washburn Hopkins suggested that the name refers not to three mothers, but to three mother-goddesses who are collectively called the Ambik&#257;s. Other related translations have been "having three wives or sisters" or were based on the idea that the name actually refers to the oblations given to Rudra, which according to some traditions were shared with the goddess Ambik&#257;.


Blue throat: The epithet N&#299;laka&#7751;tha (Sanskrit &#2344;&#2368;&#2354;&#2325;&#2339;&#2381;&#2336;; n&#299;la = "blue", ka&#7751;tha = "throat") refers to a story in which Shiva drank the poison churned up from the world ocean. (See Hal&#257;hala.) The Hari Van&#347;a Purana, on the other hand, attributes the colour of Shiva's throat to an episode in which Vishnu compels Shiva to fly after taking him by the throat and nearly strangling him.

Crescent moon: Shiva bears on his head the crescent moon. The epithet Chandra&#347;ekhara (Sanskrit: &#2330;&#2344;&#2381;&#2342;&#2381;&#2352;&#2358;&#2375;&#2326;&#2352; "Having the moon as his crest" - chandra = "moon", &#347;ekhara = "crest, crown") refers to this feature. The placement of the moon on his head as a standard iconographic feature dates to the period when Rudra rose to prominence and became the major deity Rudra-Shiva.The origin of this linkage may be due to the identification of the moon with Soma, and there is a hymn in the Rig Veda where Soma and Rudra are jointly emplored, and in later literature, Soma and Rudra came to be identified with one another, as were Soma and the moon.


Matted hair: Shiva's distinctive hair style is noted in the epithets Ja&#7789;in, "the one with matted hair", and Kapardin, "endowed with matted hair" or "wearing his hair wound in a braid in a shell-like (kaparda) fashion". A kaparda is a cowrie shell, or a braid of hair in the form of a shell, or, more generally, hair that is shaggy or curly.


Sacred Ganga: The Ganga river flows from the matted hair of Shiva. The epithet Ga&#7749;g&#257;dhara ("bearer of the river Ga&#7749;g&#257;") refers to this feature. The Ganga (Ganges), one of the major rivers of the country, is said to have made her abode in Shiva's hair.

Ashes[b]: Shiva smears his body with ashes (bhasma). Some forms of Shiva, such as Bhairava, are associated with a very old Indian tradition of cremation-ground asceticism that was practiced by some groups who were outside the fold of brahmanic orthodoxy. These practices associated with cremation grounds are also mentioned in the Pali canon of Theravada Buddhism. One epithet for Shiva is "inhabitant of the cremation ground" (Sanskrit: &#347;ma&#347;&#257;nav&#257;sin, also spelled Shmashanavasin), referring to this connection.

[b]Tiger skin
: He is often shown seated upon a tiger skin, an honour reserved for the most accomplished of Hindu ascetics, the Brahmarishis. "Mythology ~ The birth of Brahmarishis" (HTML).

http://www.tamilstar.com/mythology/brahmarishis. Retrieved on 2008-05-07.

Serpents: Shiva is often shown garlanded with a snake.

Trident: (Sanskrit: Trishula): Shiva's particular weapon is the trident.

Drum: A small drum shaped like an hourglass is known as a damaru (Sanskrit: &#7693;amaru). This is one of the attributes of Shiva in his famous dancing representation known as Nataraja. A specific hand gesture (mudra) called &#7693;amaru-hasta (Sanskrit for "&#7693;amaru-hand") is used to hold the drum. This drum is particularly used as an emblem by members of the K&#257;p&#257;lika sect.

Nand&#299;: Nand&#299;, also known as Nandin, is the name of the bull that serves as Shiva's mount (Sanskrit: v&#257;hana). Shiva's association with cattle is reflected in his name Pa&#347;upati, or Pashupati (Sanskrit: &#2346;&#2358;&#2369;&#2346;&#2340;&#2367;), translated by Sharma as "lord of cattle" and by Kramrisch as "lord of animals", who notes that it is particularly used as an epithet of Rudra.


Ga&#7751;a: The Ga&#7751;as (Devanagari: &#2327;&#2339;) are attendants of Shiva and live in Kailash. They are often referred to as the Boothaganas, or ghostly hosts, on account of their nature. Generally benign, except when their lord is transgressed against, they are often invoked to intercede with the lord on behalf of the devotee. Ganesha was chosen as their leader by Shiva, hence Ganesha's title ga&#7751;a-&#299;&#347;a or ga&#7751;a-pati, "lord of the ga&#7751;as".
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9948

PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hussainkhan55 wrote:
The Imam represents all the three attributes . Sometimes the Imam decides to appoint a Pir to act in the capacity of the Bhrama, otherwise he is all the three at once.

Who said this 2 you bro??
Logically speaking, Shiva should be a PERSON manifested as that particular aspect of God like Vishnu and Brahma were.
Vishnu being manifested as Imam while Brahma as the Prophet and Pirs.
HE MUST BE LIVING AMONGST US and not yet died like ADAM. By this, I dont want to imply that Nauuuzibillah Adam is not shiva but on the contrary i just want to indicate that there might be a living manifestation of Shiva even today.
In ramayana it has been mentioned that Ram was Vishnu, Vashist the Brahma and Hanuman or HArmat the Shiva ....
So there might be a living Shiva in some point or the other ....
Who is it?

Doctrines change according to times. At present there are only two important positions/offices in our tariqah - the Imam and the Pir. If there was a Shiva in our tradition then the Imam would make it apparent and not keep everyone guessing.

The following verse from the Ginan Allah ek Kassam Sabukaa can be interpreted as the three integrated in the Imam.

ejee bhrahmaa veeshnav maheshar bhanneeye
kal maa(n)he veeshnu(n) Imaam
je jeev farmaane chaalyaa
so pahotaa bahesht makaan..............illaahee
.............16

Know that the Creator, Ruler and the Destroyer(of evil) in the present age as Lord Vishnu the Imam. Those souls that have followed the Farmaans, have reached the abode of paradise.

Below is a verse from Moman Chetamni by Sayyed Imam Shah.

1icon_cool.gif Eji Brahma ne Vishnu Maheshvar kahiae,
Teto sarve che ae ghar mahain,
Ae ghar ma(n)thi aalaj chaliya,
Teto parvariya pirothami mahain. Cheto......


18. The Gods such as Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshvar are all one in
this Satpanth and are manifest in Ali's progeny and is present with us in this world.


Last edited by kmaherali on Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total
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agakhani



Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1700
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
hussainkhan55 wrote:
The Imam represents all the three attributes . Sometimes the Imam decides to appoint a Pir to act in the capacity of the Bhrama, otherwise he is all the three at once.

Who said this 2 you bro??
Logically speaking, Shiva should be a PERSON manifested as that particular aspect of God like Vishnu and Brahma were.
Vishnu being manifested as Imam while Brahma as the Prophet and Pirs.
HE MUST BE LIVING AMONGST US and not yet died like ADAM. By this, I dont want to imply that Nauuuzibillah Adam is not shiva but on the contrary i just want to indicate that there might be a living manifestation of Shiva even today.
In ramayana it has been mentioned that Ram was Vishnu, Vashist the Brahma and Hanuman or HArmat the Shiva ....
So there might be a living Shiva in some point or the other ....
Who is it?

Doctrines change according to times. At present there are only two important positions/offices in our tariqah - the Imam and the Pir. If there was a Shiva in our tradition then the Imam would make it apparent and not keep everyone guessing.

The following verse from the Ginan Allah ek Kassam Sabukaa can be interpreted as the three integrated in the Imam.

ejee bhrahmaa veeshnav maheshar bhanneeye
kal maa(n)he veeshnu(n) Imaam
je jeev farmaane chaalyaa
so pahotaa bahesht makaan..............illaahee
.............16

Know that the Creator, Ruler and the Destroyer(of evil) in the present age as Lord Vishnu the Imam. Those souls that have followed the Farmaans, have reached the abode of paradise.

Brother K,
You mean that Shiva's (DESTROYER'S) roll is also in our Imam? As per Hindu religion view point Shiva is destroyer and you also mention in your above post, can you explain it in little more detail?
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 9948

PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agakhani wrote:
Brother K,
You mean that Shiva's (DESTROYER'S) roll is also in our Imam? As per Hindu religion view point Shiva is destroyer and you also mention in your above post, can you explain it in little more detail?

It is simple. The Imam is essentially the Mazhar of the Divine Essence and hence it can express itself in any manner. At present the Imam is the Gurnar or Shahpir - he is both the Imam and the Pir. So why can't he be three in one if we choose to adopt that doctrinal position?

It should be noted that by the term 'Destroyer' it is meant destroyer of evil and that is how he expressed himself in the narrative of the Das Avtaars....
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