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time period of jugs and avatar
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
[
Religion did not evolve out of cultures. The discussion is about calculation and not about cultures. Different countries and areas have different cultures. It is a vast subject including habits, human trends, traditions, rituals, attitudes, dress code, music, ethical values and so on. What Imam meant is to adopt and absorb good habits, attitudes to make life better.

Again I insist, we are still in kali yuga.

Religions are embedded in the cultures from which they evolved. For example Ginans contain Hindu mythology. The concept of time is also part of cultures. Different cultures have adopted different time frames. The Yugas are very much part of Hindu culture and they find expression in the Ginans as well.

I have already explained the cyclical theory of time and why we are in the ascending Duapur, so I will not repeat again.

If you insist that we are in Kali Yuga, then we will agree to disagree.

There is an interesting article on the relationship between faith and cultures at:

https://www.aku.edu/news/pages/News_Details.aspx?nid=NEWS-001655


The reference you gave of article, discusses generally culture of marriage and honor killings and not all aspects of culture as whole.

When Adam set foot on earth was religion there first or culture. Adam came with guidance of religion and not culture. Culture evolves with group of people and not in vacuum.

You have better knowledge of Ginans that's why I gave reference of Ginan i.e;

EJI CHAAR LAAKH NE BATREES (432,000) HAJAAR
TE KALJUG NA PRAMAAN HUWA HO HARI

Now your theory is right or Ginan? We are still in Kali yuga, long way to go.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Now your theory is right or Ginan? We are still in Kali yuga, long way to go.
Ginans are of course allegorical, so there cannot be only one meaning. A couple of questions for you.

What will happen after the Kal Yuga is over? What is your understanding of Farta Vela?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2018 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Now your theory is right or Ginan? We are still in Kali yuga, long way to go.
Ginans are of course allegorical, so there cannot be only one meaning. A couple of questions for you.

What will happen after the Kal Yuga is over? What is your understanding of Farta Vela?


I gave you reference from Ginan;

EJI CHAAR LAAKH NE BATREES (432,000) HAJAAR
TE KALJUG NA PRAMAAN HUWA HO HARI

Now you provide reference from Ginan that we are in Duapur and not in Kalyug.

you asked,"What will happen after Kali yuga". Let me answer from Ginan again;
EJI DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI
NA RAHEY GA TIYAA(N) KOI JI RE

EJI EEK ALLAH KERI JAAT RAHEY GI
TUBB TIYAA(N) EEK ILLAHI JI RE
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

EJI CHAAR LAAKH NE BATREES (432,000) HAJAAR
TE KALJUG NA PRAMAAN HUWA HO HARI
Where does it say 432,000 years? It could be days. As I said Ginans are allegorical
shivaathervedi wrote:

Now you provide reference from Ginan that we are in Duapur and not in Kalyug.

The understanding of Duapur is contained in the notion of Farta Vela. Farta Vela means period of turning from Kali Yuga to Duapur Yuga.
shivaathervedi wrote:

you asked,"What will happen after Kali yuga". Let me answer from Ginan again;
EJI DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI
NA RAHEY GA TIYAA(N) KOI JI RE

EJI EEK ALLAH KERI JAAT RAHEY GI
TUBB TIYAA(N) EEK ILLAHI JI RE
As MSMS says in his Memoirs, creation is constant and perpetual. It never ends. Hence cyclical theory is more appropriate than the linear theory.
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

EJI CHAAR LAAKH NE BATREES (432,000) HAJAAR
TE KALJUG NA PRAMAAN HUWA HO HARI
Where does it say 432,000 years? It could be days. As I said Ginans are allegorical
shivaathervedi wrote:

Now you provide reference from Ginan that we are in Duapur and not in Kalyug.

The understanding of Duapur is contained in the notion of Farta Vela. Farta Vela means period of turning from Kali Yuga to Duapur Yuga.
shivaathervedi wrote:

you asked,"What will happen after Kali yuga". Let me answer from Ginan again;
EJI DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI
NA RAHEY GA TIYAA(N) KOI JI RE

EJI EEK ALLAH KERI JAAT RAHEY GI
TUBB TIYAA(N) EEK ILLAHI JI RE
As MSMS says in his Memoirs, creation is constant and perpetual. It never ends. Hence cyclical theory is more appropriate than the linear theory.


1. According to your assertion Ginans are allegorical means esoteric meanings and interpretations are also allegorical away from reality.
In response of your trick question in Ginan line " EJI CHAAR LAAKH NE BATREES HAJAR " there is no mention of varas, let me quote the fallowing part of Ginan for your satisfaction.

Eji Tetaalis laakh varas
ane upar vis hajaar;
tenu puraane puraanne lekho kariyo
te chhelo Naklanki avtaar

Duration of Four Yugas are:

a. Satya Yuga has 4 charanas = 1,728,000 yrs.

b. Treta Yuga has 3 charanas= 1,296,000 yrs.

c. Dvapara Yuga has 2 charanas= 864,000 yrs.

d. Kali Yuga has 1 charanas = 432,000 yrs.

2. Regarding your question about Farta Vela, please note Ginan mentions vela and not the word yuga.

Now my question; Naklanki is assigned for Kali Yuga, if Kali is over means Naklanki Avtar is gone, then what is the name of Avtar in reverse Duapur yuga?

3. You have mis qouted MSMS. As you have mentioned quite few times that Memoirs was written for westerners and was not targeted to followers, MSMS has written about perpetual CREATION and not about Dooms Day, the Final Day. Please refer to Quran, Ginans, and Farmans of even MSMS there is clear mention of DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

1. According to your assertion Ginans are allegorical means esoteric meanings and interpretations are also allegorical away from reality..
That is the essence of esoteric teaching - what is written or what is out there is illusory maya. The reality is inside or in the meaning, not out there. Remember the Farman I highlighted in the thread on Imamat:

"Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. "
shivaathervedi wrote:

2. Regarding your question about Farta Vela, please note Ginan mentions vela and not the word yuga..
It does not matter whether you call it Yuga or Vela. The point is that it indicates turning. My question to you is that what is this turning?

In our Ginans it is mentioned that Pir Sadardeen was the Mukhi of the Kali Yuga and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen is the Mukhi of Farta Vela (countless souls). What does this Farta Vela mean to you?
shivaathervedi wrote:

Now my question; Naklanki is assigned for Kali Yuga, if Kali is over means Naklanki Avtar is gone, then what is the name of Avtar in reverse Duapur yuga?
Naklanki is the final form of the Avatar. It does not necessarily mean that it is restricted to Kali Yuga.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Now my question; Naklank
3. You have mis qouted MSMS. As you have mentioned quite few times that Memoirs was written for westerners and was not targeted to followers, MSMS has written about perpetual CREATION and not about Dooms Day, the Final Day. Please refer to Quran, Ginans, and Farmans of even MSMS there is clear mention of DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI.
In my interpretation, any allusion to the Final Day in the Ginans point to the end of existence at a personal level - that the personal life (lives) of each individual ends and that there are no more cycles to undergo.

If the message in the Memoirs seems questionable to you, there are Farmans that allude to continuous and limitless creation:

"There are parts of the world in which people find conflict between faith and science. But I think it is important on the occasion of this Silver Jubilee to emphasize to My spiritual children that Islam does not accept this conflict, that Islam on the contrary overcomes the conflict through its message by explaining that Allah's creation is continuous, and that it is total, and that it is limitless . And therefore in the message of Islam, science is one means by which man perceives Allah's creation, His continuing limitless creation."(Vancouver, April 21, 1983)
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

1. According to your assertion Ginans are allegorical means esoteric meanings and interpretations are also allegorical away from reality..
That is the essence of esoteric teaching - what is written or what is out there is illusory maya. The reality is inside or in the meaning, not out there. Remember the Farman I highlighted in the thread on Imamat:

"Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. "
shivaathervedi wrote:

2. Regarding your question about Farta Vela, please note Ginan mentions vela and not the word yuga..
It does not matter whether you call it Yuga or Vela. The point is that it indicates turning. My question to you is that what is this turning?

In our Ginans it is mentioned that Pir Sadardeen was the Mukhi of the Kali Yuga and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen is the Mukhi of Farta Vela (countless souls). What does this Farta Vela mean to you?
shivaathervedi wrote:

Now my question; Naklanki is assigned for Kali Yuga, if Kali is over means Naklanki Avtar is gone, then what is the name of Avtar in reverse Duapur yuga?
Naklanki is the final form of the Avatar. It does not necessarily mean that it is restricted to Kali Yuga.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Now my question; Naklank
3. You have mis qouted MSMS. As you have mentioned quite few times that Memoirs was written for westerners and was not targeted to followers, MSMS has written about perpetual CREATION and not about Dooms Day, the Final Day. Please refer to Quran, Ginans, and Farmans of even MSMS there is clear mention of DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI.
In my interpretation, any allusion to the Final Day in the Ginans point to the end of existence at a personal level - that the personal life (lives) of each individual ends and that there are no more cycles to undergo.

If the message in the Memoirs seems questionable to you, there are Farmans that allude to continuous and limitless creation:

"There are parts of the world in which people find conflict between faith and science. But I think it is important on the occasion of this Silver Jubilee to emphasize to My spiritual children that Islam does not accept this conflict, that Islam on the contrary overcomes the conflict through its message by explaining that Allah's creation is continuous, and that it is total, and that it is limitless . And therefore in the message of Islam, science is one means by which man perceives Allah's creation, His continuing limitless creation."(Vancouver, April 21, 1983)


You wrote:
1. "what is written or what is out there is illusory maya. The reality is inside or in the meaning, not out there"
When written document or statement is maya (illusion) then how one can find meaning in it. You rather mean reality is in the meaning and meaning is in maya and maya is chhaya.

2. Vela/Vera means time or ghari. Farta vela means moving time. Vela can be a second or a minute or or an hour or generally speaking any limited time. It is short lived. Now compare short lived ghari with time frame of Kali yuga. It is your personal opinion that Kali is completed and now we are in duapur yuga. We move forward and not back ward in past. I looked into Hindu shasters there is no return of Kali backward. Kali just started around 5000 years back and completion is long way to go.
Farta vela does not mean countless souls, please rethink. Can you mention the Ginan parts which confirm Pir Sadardin Mukhi of Kali Yuga and Pir Hasan as Mukhi of Farta vela.
3. In my opinion Naklanki came on mission with fixed time frame. After mission is accomplished he will return to his original abode.
4. I quoted part of Ginan " DUNIYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI", the message is clear at one point the Universe will be dissolved by its owner. Kun Fayakun is till 7th cycle, there is no 8th cycle mentioned by Dais.
5. Hazar Imam said Allah's creation is continuous but he did not said it will continue for ever. Quran says Qayamat (dooms day) can not be avoided. The SA'AA will come all of sudden, there will be no place to hide. You can find same concept in Ginans.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Farta vela does not mean countless souls, please rethink.
You are right, Farta Vela does not mean countless souls but it means a period in which countless souls will find salvation and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen is the saviour. So it cannot be a brief time frame.
shivaathervedi wrote:

3. In my opinion Naklanki came on mission with fixed time frame. After mission is accomplished he will return to his original abode.
I disagree with your opinion. Naklanki is the final form which will last forever.
shivaathervedi wrote:

4. I quoted part of Ginan " DUNIYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI", the message is clear at one point the Universe will be dissolved by its owner. Kun Fayakun is till 7th cycle, there is no 8th cycle mentioned by Dais.
5. Hazar Imam said Allah's creation is continuous but he did not said it will continue for ever. Quran says Qayamat (dooms day) can not be avoided. The SA'AA will come all of sudden, there will be no place to hide. You can find same concept in Ginans.
You did not read the Farman properly. It states that creation is continuous and limitless. Do you know what limitless means?

Yes certainly there will be Qiyama from an individual perspective but not from a cosmic perspective.

For more on this subject there is the thread:
Daet Kalingo and Dajjal

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=389&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=


Last edited by kmaherali on Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
Can you mention the Ginan parts which confirm Pir Sadardin Mukhi of Kali Yuga and Pir Hasan as Mukhi of Farta vela.
These are verses from Anant Akhado (Ashaji)

Aashaajee Peer Sadardeen buzrag kaheeyen
so baar karoddee naa dhannee jee
kal jug maanhe jeevddaa taaryaa
saachi dasond aalee.....................Haree anant..384

Oh Lord We regard Pir Sadardin as noble and distinguished
as he was the master of twelve crore souls(he saved
them)
He liberated the souls in the Kali Yuga
and practised the tithe in a proper manner
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen gareeb bandaa
hotaa saheb jeene sharanne jee
annat karoddiye Gurjee aavyaa
karvaa jivu-naa kaam....................Haree anant..385

Oh Lord Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen was a poor creature
he was present at the physical abode of the Imam
He came as a Guru(teacher) of unlimited/countless souls
to perform the (liberating) task of the souls
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Fartaal velaa maanhe amar aavyaa
teen-kun veechaaree chaalo jee
Imaam paatr je koi aave
teen-kun sahee karee maano..............Haree anant..392

Oh Lord In the period of fartal (turning) an order has come
reflect upon it and conduct yourselves accordingly
Whoever is the Imam of the time, the Manifestation
regard Him as the truth and follow Him
Haree You are eternal...
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In above parts of ANANT AKHARO, there is no clear mention of Pir Sadardin as Mukhi in Kal yug or Pir Hasan as Mukhi in Farta Vela. Now according to your assertion of Duapur who is Mukhi of Duapur yuga?
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Farta vela does not mean countless souls, please rethink.
You are right, Farta Vela does not mean countless souls but it means a period in which countless souls will find salvation and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen is the saviour. So it cannot be a brief time frame.
shivaathervedi wrote:

3. In my opinion Naklanki came on mission with fixed time frame. After mission is accomplished he will return to his original abode.
I disagree with your opinion. Naklanki is the final form which will last forever.
shivaathervedi wrote:

4. I quoted part of Ginan " DUNIYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI", the message is clear at one point the Universe will be dissolved by its owner. Kun Fayakun is till 7th cycle, there is no 8th cycle mentioned by Dais.
5. Hazar Imam said Allah's creation is continuous but he did not said it will continue for ever. Quran says Qayamat (dooms day) can not be avoided. The SA'AA will come all of sudden, there will be no place to hide. You can find same concept in Ginans.
You did not read the Farman properly. It states that creation is continuous and limitless. Do you know what limitless means?

Yes certainly there will be Qiyama from an individual perspective but not from a cosmic perspective.

For more on this subject there is the thread:
Daet Kalingo and Dajjal

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=389&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=


Personally, I do not consider farta as Yuga because of Vela attached to it. There is difference in the meaning of word Yuga and Vela/Vera.

No doubt Allah's creation is continuous and limitless till He allows, then their shall come SA'AA, the time or hour when planet earth will seize to exist.

Quran says;
When Earth is shaken with her earthquake. And Earth yielded up her burdens, and man will say, what happened to her? That day she will relate her chronicles....
Surah Zilzaal.

The Calamity! What is Calamity? Do you know what is Calamity? A day where in mankind will be as thickly scattered moths.And the mountains will become as carded wool........
Surah Qaari'ah.

Quran, Old Testament, New Testament, Farmans, Ginans, Hadiths, sayings of Mowla Ali and previous Imams, all clearly declare, DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI.

When Dunya Saghri Fana Hovey Gi, means when Kalyug seize to exist at that point Naklanki will return to its original abode, some where in Himaliyas, according to Hindu mythology.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
In above parts of ANANT AKHARO, there is no clear mention of Pir Sadardin as Mukhi in Kal yug or Pir Hasan as Mukhi in Farta Vela. Now according to your assertion of Duapur who is Mukhi of Duapur yuga?
The Mukhi is the term used for the savior. The elevated souls can save other souls through the power of Ibadat. The saviors for the Yugas are:

Karta Yuga - Pahelaj saved 5 crores
Treta Yuga - Raja Harishchadra saved 7 crores
Duapur Yuga - Jujeshtan saved 9 crores
Kali Yuga - Pir Sadardeen saved 12 crores
Fartaal Vela - Pir Hasan Kabirdeen will save countless souls

Relevant Ginan verses:

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
paa(n)che karoddsu(n) raajaa pahelaaj saath bhaai.................5

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with King Pahelaaj the saviour of five crore souls.

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
saate karoddsu(n) raajaa hareecha(n)ddhr saath bhaai..............6

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with King Harishchandr the saviour of seven crore souls.

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
nav karoddsu(n) raajaa jujeshtthan saath bhaai....................7

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with King Jujeshthan, the saviour of nine crore souls.

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
baare karoddsu(n) peer sadardeen saath bhaai......................8

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with Peer Sadardeen the saviour of twelve crore souls.

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
annat karoddsu(n) peer kabeerdeen saath bhaai.....................9

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen, the saviour of countless crore souls.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22865


Last edited by kmaherali on Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Quran, Old Testament, New Testament, Farmans, Ginans, Hadiths, sayings of Mowla Ali and previous Imams, all clearly declare, DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI.

When Dunya Saghri Fana Hovey Gi, means when Kalyug seize to exist at that point Naklanki will return to its original abode, some where in Himaliyas, according to Hindu mythology.
That is the reason we need a Living Imam to guide us according to the current thinking and not the thinking of 14 hundred years in the past.

The present Imam clearly indicates that creation is continuous and limitless (without end).
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
In above parts of ANANT AKHARO, there is no clear mention of Pir Sadardin as Mukhi in Kal yug or Pir Hasan as Mukhi in Farta Vela. Now according to your assertion of Duapur who is Mukhi of Duapur yuga?
The Mukhi is the term used for the savior. The elevated souls can save other souls through the power of Ibadat. The saviors for the Yugas are:

Karta Yuga - Pahelaj saved 5 crores
Treta Yuga - Raja Harishchadra saved 7 crores
Duapur Yuga - Jujeshtan saved 9 crores
Kali Yuga - Pir Sadardeen saved 12 crores
Fartaal Vela - Pir Hasan Kabirdeen will save countless souls

Relevant Ginan verses:

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
paa(n)che karoddsu(n) raajaa pahelaaj saath bhaai.................5

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with King Pahelaaj the saviour of five crore souls.

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
saate karoddsu(n) raajaa hareecha(n)ddhr saath bhaai..............6

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with King Harishchandr the saviour of seven crore souls.

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
nav karoddsu(n) raajaa jujeshtthan saath bhaai....................7

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with King Jujeshthan, the saviour of nine crore souls.

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
baare karoddsu(n) peer sadardeen saath bhaai......................8

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with Peer Sadardeen the saviour of twelve crore souls.

shaah maaro chaddase mahaajam raat
annat karoddsu(n) peer kabeerdeen saath bhaai.....................9

My Lord will appear on the night of great death.
He will be with Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen, the saviour of countless crore souls.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22865


In your previous post you used the word Mukhi. What is the established meaning of Mukhi. Mukhi means CHIEF or PARTON. You can assume what ever to prove your point. If you write meaning of Mukhi as scientist or IT Geek what can I say. The Ginan you quoted is not mentioning any thing like Mukhi. For Example;
SHAH MAARO CHARSEY MAHAAJAM RAAT
PAANCH KROR SU(N) RAJA PAHLAAJ SAATH BHAI

In above part there is no indication of savior. Saath Bhai does not mean savior.
Was Raja Pahlaaj in human form or in animal form. If he was in animal form from which world he got 50 million humans!!
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shivaathervedi



Joined: 16 May 2018
Posts: 355

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Quran, Old Testament, New Testament, Farmans, Ginans, Hadiths, sayings of Mowla Ali and previous Imams, all clearly declare, DUNYA SAGHRI FANA HOVEY GI.

When Dunya Saghri Fana Hovey Gi, means when Kalyug seize to exist at that point Naklanki will return to its original abode, some where in Himaliyas, according to Hindu mythology.
That is the reason we need a Living Imam to guide us according to the current thinking and not the thinking of 14 hundred years in the past.

The present Imam clearly indicates that creation is continuous and limitless (without end).


Fine I agree with first part of your statement," That is the reason we need a Living Imam to guide us according to the current thinking". This is the reason according to changing times and thinking Imam gave PREAMBLE for all Ismaili jamaits. Let me remind you one of your quote, you wrote," CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES".
Now come to second part of your statement,"-------and not the thinking of 1400 years in the past". My take; when thinking of 1400 years or 1000 years in past is not valid how come then thinking of past 700 years?
No doubt Allah's creation is continuous and limitless but there is an end as explained in Ginans also. Were 4 yugas continuous. In my opinion there was long gap in between yugas to start. If there was no gap then we should have needed one name to be continued and not 4 different names. Yugas were FARTAAR kept turning and loosing stem.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

In above part there is no indication of savior. Saath Bhai does not mean savior.
Was Raja Pahlaaj in human form or in animal form. If he was in animal form from which world he got 50 million humans!!
From where did you get the idea that Pahelaj was non-human? Of course he saved human souls just as Raja Harishchandr and Peer Sadardeen.

Here are verses from Saloko Nano indicating that they were saviors.

satgur kahere: kartaa jugmaa(n)he paelaaj taaryaa
ane seedhaa te paa(n)ch karodd
paa(n)ch puraa sareveeaa
tenne man maa(n)he na aannee khodd re..........116

The True Guide says: In the era of Kartaa, Pahelaaj liberated and five crore souls were on the Right Path. The five(crores) served completely and did not harbour any bad intentions in their hearts(minds).

satgur kahere: tretaa jugmaa(n)he Hareechanddhra taaryaa
ane seedhaate karodd saat
saat satee-e seereveeyaaa
te kenee na kartaa vaat re.....................117

The True Guide says: In the era of Tretaa, Hareechanddhra saved and seven crores were set on the Right Path. The seven crores served as saintly women they did not speak(evil) of anybody.

satgur kahere: duaapur jugmaa(n)he nav karodd taaryaa
ane paa(n)ddve gallaavee deh
tenne sat na khoyu(n) aapannu(n)
ane haree su(n) raakheeyo neh re...............118

The True Guide says: In the era of duaapur, nine crore were liberated, and the Paandwas sacrificed their bodies. They did not loose their Truth and maintained affection for the Lord.

satgur kahere: kaljug maa(n)he Peer Sadardeen saach hay
ane saach te karodd baar
saachaa te sahebne sarevtaa
tenne na keedhee vaar re.......................119

The True Guide says: In the present era, Peer Sadardeen is the truthful and twelve crores were true. They served the Lord truthfully and they never abondoned Him.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per your habit you did not answered my first two crucial statements because you are trapped in your statements, let me quote my statements;

Fine I agree with first part of your statement,you wrote," That is the reason we need a Living Imam to guide us according to the current thinking". This is the reason according to changing times and thinking Imam gave PREAMBLE for all Ismaili jamaits. Let me remind you one of your quote, you wrote," CONCEPTS CHANGE ACCORDING TO CHANGING TIMES".
Now come to second part of your statement,"-------and not the thinking of 1400 years in the past". My take; when thinking of 1400 years or 1000 years in past is not valid how come then thinking of past 700 years?

Let me ask 2 questions before we proceed to parts of Ginan you mentioned.
1. Which Avtar was in complete human form and in which yoga?
2. In which yoga king pahlaj ruled and what was the population (numbers) living under his kingdom?
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:
My take; when thinking of 1400 years or 1000 years in past is not valid how come then thinking of past 700 years?
Even the thinking of 700 is invalid if it is superseded by the present Imam.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Let me ask 2 questions before we proceed to parts of Ginan you mentioned.
1. Which Avtar was in complete human form and in which yoga?
2. In which yoga king pahlaj ruled and what was the population (numbers) living under his kingdom?
Answer to the first question - Sri Ram in Treta Yuga.

Answer to the second question - King Pahelaj ruled in Karta Yuga. I am not certain about the population at that time. Remember he saved the souls of the entire Karta Yuga - not only of his time.

There is no relationship between the form of the Avatar and the devotees. The Avatar can assume any form regardless of the nature of devotees. For example he assumed the nature of a fish (Machh Avtaar) to recover the Vedas from the water. Once that task was over, he reverted back to human form. Do you think non-human forms are capable of reading the Vedas?
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
My take; when thinking of 1400 years or 1000 years in past is not valid how come then thinking of past 700 years?
Even the thinking of 700 is invalid if it is superseded by the present Imam.
shivaathervedi wrote:

Let me ask 2 questions before we proceed to parts of Ginan you mentioned.
1. Which Avtar was in complete human form and in which yoga?
2. In which yoga king pahlaj ruled and what was the population (numbers) living under his kingdom?
Answer to the first question - Sri Ram in Treta Yuga.

Answer to the second question - King Pahelaj ruled in Karta Yuga. I am not certain about the population at that time. Remember he saved the souls of the entire Karta Yuga - not only of his time.

There is no relationship between the form of the Avatar and the devotees. The Avatar can assume any form regardless of the nature of devotees. For example he assumed the nature of a fish (Machh Avtaar) to recover the Vedas from the water. Once that task was over, he reverted back to human form. Do you think non-human forms are capable of reading the Vedas?


You wrote." Even the thinking of 700 is invalid if it is superseded by the present Imam". That's why Imam gave Preamble. He gave uniform philosophy acceptable to all factions of Ismaili Nizari Tariqah followers. Satpunth philosophy is practiced by limited persons of subcontinent origin.

Rama was the first complete human Avtar and Pahlaj was before him in Karta Yuga means he was not in human form, in other words Avtar of mammals and different animals.

Mostly stories mentioned in old shasters, Ramayan, and Maha Bharta are man made and kept included many centuries after those events to inspire and spread religion.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Rama was the first complete human Avtar and Pahlaj was before him in Karta Yuga means he was not in human form, in other words Avtar of mammals and different animals.
You are confusing evolution with the appearance of the Avatars. There is no relationship. The Avatars assumed non-human forms momentarily to accomplish certain tasks and to create conditions for momins( human) to practice their faith. They did not have these non-human forms on permanent basis.

For example, Imam assumed the form of a fish to recover the Vedas from the ocean. After the recovery, Imamat continued in human form. Machh Avatar did not remain as a fish permanently.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Rama was the first complete human Avtar and Pahlaj was before him in Karta Yuga means he was not in human form, in other words Avtar of mammals and different animals.
You are confusing evolution with the appearance of the Avatars. There is no relationship. The Avatars assumed non-human forms momentarily to accomplish certain tasks and to create conditions for momins( human) to practice their faith. They did not have these non-human forms on permanent basis.

For example, Imam assumed the form of a fish to recover the Vedas from the ocean. After the recovery, Imamat continued in human form. Machh Avatar did not remain as a fish permanently.


You wrote,"There is no relationship. The Avatars assumed non-human forms momentarily to accomplish certain tasks and to create conditions for momins( human) to practice their faith. They did not have these non-human forms on permanent basis.

Momentarily!!! The non human Avtars stayed for more than two Yugas and you say momentarily. How come Vedas kept disappearing in Yugas means opposite forces were more stronger snatched the Vedas and dive deep in ocean to find. Were Vedas first or Avtars? Why Avtars failed to protect their treasure of Vedas? BILLAH WAJAH KHUD KO KASHTT MEY DHALA.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

Momentarily!!! The non human Avtars stayed for more than two Yugas and you say momentarily.
To appreciate the temporary/momentary basis of the appearance of Avatars to perform specific tasks for the upliftment and benefit of the devotees, please read verses 403 - 437 of Anant Akhado at: http://www.ismaili.net/granths/part5.html.

They are too many to quote here.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

Momentarily!!! The non human Avtars stayed for more than two Yugas and you say momentarily.
To appreciate the temporary/momentary basis of the appearance of Avatars to perform specific tasks for the upliftment and benefit of the devotees, please read verses 403 - 437 of Anant Akhado at: http://www.ismaili.net/granths/part5.html.

They are too many to quote here.


What these fallowing parts of Anant Akhado (which you have mentioned) to do with the momentarily appearance of Avtars. The responsibility of Avtars was the salvation of souls. When Pir Hasan as a savior freed unlimited souls then what job is left for Naklanki?


Aashaajee Vadhaaiyun tannaa evaa fal paamo
paamo Gur-ne haathe jee
darshan devaa am ghar aave
maher hui maherbaanee...................Haree anant..403

Aashaajee Das-me avtaare evaa thaine chaalo
chheli kaayaa keedhee jee
chhelaa jiv Saami ugaari leeyo
karo anant vadhaaiyun...................Haree anant..437

While moving to Satya Yoga after Duapur, will Naklanki turn again into FISH Avtar?
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Admin



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the expression Chorasi Chokari (84 Chokari), this is the definition of Chokari as it appeared in manuscript hs386 of the Heritage Society.

The manuscript was found from Kara Kunvarji of Anjar. Ms from Bhavnagar, Owner in 1905 was Bawa Ehmadali, a descendant of ImamShah as written in a note at the end. Table of Content lists 34 works including Arti moti, Arti nani, Ginans, Dhols, Kabir, So Kiriya, Slok Satgur, Slok Pir Shams.

It defines a "Chokari" as 4.32 million years. Now this may be the interpretation of the scribe as 4.32 million is believed to be the duration of the Khalifa Kalap (4 jugs total divided in 10 periods of 432,000 years)

There is a detailed description of this concept in late Dr Gulshan Khakee's thesis (http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/29102) but of course the amazing topic of time and cycles needs more research.
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kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 19279

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

The responsibility of Avtars was the salvation of souls. When Pir Hasan as a savior freed unlimited souls then what job is left for Naklanki??
The role of Peer Hasan Kabeerdeen is to guide and pray for the salvation of souls. Hence we have Shukarvari Beej in gratitude for this service. The role of Naklanki is to create enabling conditions for the souls to practice their faith. Hence today MHI creates institutions and Jamat Khanas for that purpose.
shivaathervedi wrote:

While moving to Satya Yoga after Duapur, will Naklanki turn again into FISH Avtar?
Yes he could if there was a need for it!
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Admin wrote:

There is a detailed description of this concept in late Dr Gulshan Khakee's thesis (http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/29102) but of course the amazing topic of time and cycles needs more research.
As we move towards the enlightened age of Satya Yuga, there will be more and more scientific evidence to shed better light on the previous Yugas.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:

There is a detailed description of this concept in late Dr Gulshan Khakee's thesis (http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/29102) but of course the amazing topic of time and cycles needs more research.
As we move towards the enlightened age of Satya Yuga, there will be more and more scientific evidence to shed better light on the previous Yugas.


As we move towards the enlightened age of Satya Yuga;
When! Mirza Galib has said; KOUN JIYEY GA TERI ZULF KE SER HONNEY TAK

You wrote,"there will be more and more scientific evidence to shed better light on the previous Yugas".
How! Modern science is after producing chemical weapons, atomic missiles, laser rays weapons, cloned armies, star wars futuristic weapons, F-35 then F-45, or science will unearth some more mummys to shed light on.
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shivaathervedi



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

The responsibility of Avtars was the salvation of souls. When Pir Hasan as a savior freed unlimited souls then what job is left for Naklanki??
The role of Peer Hasan Kabeerdeen is to guide and pray for the salvation of souls. Hence we have Shukarvari Beej in gratitude for this service. The role of Naklanki is to create enabling conditions for the souls to practice their faith. Hence today MHI creates institutions and Jamat Khanas for that purpose.
shivaathervedi wrote:

While moving to Satya Yoga after Duapur, will Naklanki turn again into FISH Avtar?
Yes he could if there was a need for it!


You wrote; "The role of Peer Hasan Kabeerdeen is to guide and pray for the salvation of souls".
This is what Hazar Imam is doing instead of Pir Hasan. Naklanki is not creating institutions for salvation but it is his guidance through which an adept shall get salvation.
Satya Yoga was world of ocean creatures mainly fishes. So he has to take Avtar of Fish to explain fishes. Fishes will not understand English.
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kmaherali



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

This is what Hazar Imam is doing instead of Pir Hasan. Naklanki is not creating institutions for salvation but it is his guidance through which an adept shall get salvation.
Satya Yoga was world of ocean creatures mainly fishes. So he has to take Avtar of Fish to explain fishes. Fishes will not understand English.
My understanding from the Anant Akhado was that Pir Hasan Kabirdeen was granted the responsibility of the salvation of countless souls whether they are in this world or in the astral worlds. Hence we recite Ashaji daily as a prayer/supplication of Pir Hasan Kabirdeen.

Satya Yuga was not filled with fish. There were human beings for whom the Lord assumed non-human forms to accomplish certain tasks. In fact it was a period called the Golden Age of advancement.

You are confusing evolution with the appearance of Avatars. There is no relationship.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shivaathervedi wrote:

How! Modern science is after producing chemical weapons, atomic missiles, laser rays weapons, cloned armies, star wars futuristic weapons, F-35 then F-45, or science will unearth some more mummys to shed light on.
Science is evolving. The understanding of science 200 years hence will be different than the present understanding. Just as it was incomprehensible 100 years ago that we will one day fly by aircraft.
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