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www.ismaili.net :: View topic - SOUL OR SPIRIT?
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SOUL OR SPIRIT?
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 4:50 pm    Post subject: SOUL OR SPIRIT? Reply with quote

ROOH is translated as soul by some and spirit by others.

What is the essential difference between Soul and Spirit?
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: SOUL OR SPIRIT? Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
ROOH is translated as soul by some and spirit by others.

What is the essential difference between Soul and Spirit?


Please tell me have you noticed "Soul" translated as "Spirit". In other words, please refer to the farman quoted earlier:

Quran says Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin. This means that God says to you, He is addressing men and women and He says He has made you out of one soul. ...."

I do not see the word "Rooh" or "Spirit" in "Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin" but "Nafsin" and "Soul".

So there is a difference. In fact, I have quoted the verse regarding spirit - it is not ?

Also, Regarding Holy Spirit, Quran reveals in chapter 2 (verse 253)

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.

I would appreciate if you can tell me which known translator has translated the Holy Spirit as a Soul.

So please compare both the aforesaid verses and you should know the difference.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: SOUL OR SPIRIT? Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
ROOH is translated as soul by some and spirit by others.

What is the essential difference between Soul and Spirit?


Please tell me have you noticed "Soul" translated as "Spirit". In other words, please refer to the farman quoted earlier:

Quran says Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin. This means that God says to you, He is addressing men and women and He says He has made you out of one soul. ...."

I do not see the word "Rooh" or "Spirit" in "Khalaqakum min nafsin wahidatin" but "Nafsin" and "Soul".

So there is a difference. In fact, I have quoted the verse regarding spirit - it is not ?

Also, Regarding Holy Spirit, Quran reveals in chapter 2 (verse 253)

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.

I would appreciate if you can tell me which known translator has translated the Holy Spirit as a Soul related to verse 2(253).

So please compare both the aforesaid verses and you should know the difference.
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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2003 9:58 pm    Post subject: Soul and Spirit Reply with quote

Human Being = Soul + Spirit (spark of Light of Allah)

Spirit can enlighten the Soul.

Soul cannot enlighten the Spirit.

Your Soul is created and is given a form. Does your soul is enlightened by itself or enlightened by the Holy Spirit (Light of Allah).

A good topic = Soul and Spirit.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 2:41 am    Post subject: What is Rooh? Quran 17 : 85 Reply with quote

My Question was with respect to this Ayat.

I think this ayat defines Rooh. In Arabic the word Nafs is also used to refer to soul. The original Arabic in this ayat is Rooh....

Our Imam refers to us as Spiritual children but when someone dies he blesses the Souls of the deceased. What is this riddle?


017.085

YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

PICKTHAL: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

SHAKIR: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 4:21 am    Post subject: Re: What is Rooh? Quran 17 : 85 Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
My Question was with respect to this Ayat.

I think this ayat defines Rooh. In Arabic the word Nafs is also used to refer to soul. The original Arabic in this ayat is Rooh....

Our Imam refers to us as Spiritual children but when someone dies he blesses the Souls of the deceased. What is this riddle?


017.085

YUSUFALI: They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"

PICKTHAL: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.

SHAKIR: And they ask you about the soul. Say: The soul is one of the commands of my Lord, and you are not given aught of knowledge but a little.


Shamsu everything has been discussed in Pre-Adam. You wanted to know the difference between soul and spirit I have conveyed the difference very clearly by quoting the verses of the Quran and other things. It is clear you are in a confusion. People are in a confusion when God rejects them from Guidance - well this is what the Quran mention.

Soul does not die and Soul gets unclean when you go on sinning, doing evil and bad things and unproper things - Quran reveals there is rebirth and soul goes on changing forms until they meet their final destination. It, amongst other things, depends on the deeds of the person. Your rebirth can be as a stone or an iron, etc. depending upon the deeds. So when one dies the jamat prays that the soul which has sinned be pardoned of his sins, etc. The Lord's blessing is required to purify the soul, etc. because He is the Lord of Judgment.

It appears you do not want the Lord to purify your sins. In such a case, I pray to God not to purify the soul of Shamsu, either here or hereafter and land him to eternal hell. Now Shamsu are you happy ?
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 4:36 am    Post subject: Re: What is Rooh? Quran 17 : 85 Reply with quote

That Ayat =

As far as soul is concerned, Quran is very clear on this subject. People are created from the Soul of Allah. Soul goes on sinning, it goes on changing forms, etc. etc. So the question of Soul connected with "you are not given aught of knowledge but a little" does not arise. However, the spirit - that is an experience for those who experiment it.

Shamsu - your confused reply please.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: What is Rooh? Quran 17 : 85 Reply with quote

Quote:
It appears you do not want the Lord to purify your sins. In such a case, I pray to God not to purify the soul of Shamsu, either here or hereafter and land him to eternal hell. Now Shamsu are you happy ?



My Dear Spiritual Brother,

I certainly appreciate the Noor you have kindly shared with everyone.

I hope Mowla enlightens you with Noor upon Noor every second of every day.

Are you sure purification of sin is the best destination for sins

Pir Sadardin has said in Buj Niranjan part 6

jo gur muj par kare eenaayat
to gunaaha mere sab hove taaet....................................6


Quote:
Now Shamsu are you happy?


Imam SMS Farman from Ruhani Raaz

"Momin ne khushi athva nakhushi sha maate joiye"
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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2003 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: What is Rooh? Quran 17 : 85 Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
Quote:
It appears you do not want the Lord to purify your sins. In such a case, I pray to God not to purify the soul of Shamsu, either here or hereafter and land him to eternal hell. Now Shamsu are you happy ?



My Dear Spiritual Brother,

I certainly appreciate the Noor you have kindly shared with everyone.

I hope Mowla enlightens you with Noor upon Noor every second of every day.

Are you sure purification of sin is the best destination for sins

Pir Sadardin has said in Buj Niranjan part 6

jo gur muj par kare eenaayat
to gunaaha mere sab hove taaet....................................6


Quote:
Now Shamsu are you happy?




Imam SMS Farman from Ruhani Raaz

"Momin ne khushi athva nakhushi sha maate joiye"


I have not shared the Noor but the knowledge - I am not the owner of the Noor that I can share the Noor. Noor upon Noor means succession of Noor from one form to another - and the present rules of succession are quite clear. In fact you even admitted this in Pre-Adam postings - is it not.

You mention: "Are you sure purification of sin is the best destination for sins."
Again you are confused - purification of sin from a person is that the person is free of all sins. Shamsu - go read the books and use the intellect and you will know what is what - this is in the farmans. After you have gained enough knowledge from the books you spread your knowledge not your confusion one after another.
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 2:35 am    Post subject: Knowledge Reply with quote

These references are from Ginans to the Best of my knowledge

"Haq Noor, Sat Noor, Brahma kahe so Noor"

Hence the words Rasulillah(swt) are Noor (Quran or Hadith)

"Gnan ma to Saheb cche"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Taaet"

Means bandagi

Pir Sadardeen had taught us How to do Dua Karavi and we say "Bando sar ta pav gunhegaar"

Imam SMS did do Enayat on him and has said about Pir Sadardeen in Farman45 Kalame Imame Mubeen
"Tene kadhi pun buru kaam karyu nathi"

To get gunnah purified is best but to get them to turn into bandagi I think is better than that. This can only happen with mowla's enayat.

Ya Aly Madad
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 2:46 am    Post subject: last post Reply with quote

the last post was me
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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: Knowledge Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
These references are from Ginans to the Best of my knowledge

"Haq Noor, Sat Noor, Brahma kahe so Noor"

Hence the words Rasulillah(swt) are Noor (Quran or Hadith)

"Gnan ma to Saheb cche"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Taaet"

Means bandagi

Pir Sadardeen had taught us How to do Dua Karavi and we say "Bando sar ta pav gunhegaar"

Imam SMS did do Enayat on him and has said about Pir Sadardeen in Farman45 Kalame Imame Mubeen
"Tene kadhi pun buru kaam karyu nathi"

To get gunnah purified is best but to get them to turn into bandagi I think is better than that. This can only happen with mowla's enayat.

Ya Aly Madad


Shamsu - Now you are trying to say the farmans proves the Ginans/Quran wrong. Please do not be that dumb - Suddenly you are diverting to the Ginans.

You mention

[color=black]"Haq Noor, Sat Noor, Brahma kahe so Noor"
Hence the words Rasulillah(swt) are Noor (Quran or Hadith)
"Gnan ma to Saheb cche"

==== Your intrepretation is wrong because this falsifies the Quran/Farmans - OK.


The verse which mention that = Allah is the Light (Noor) of the heavens and the Earth and it also mentions the Noor is His. We discussed this in Pre-Adam/Pre-Adam under History. We also discussed that Moses was told to get Noorani deedar of Ali. I also quoted verses from the Quran regarding the Holy Prophet getting Zahiri and Noorani Deedar of Allah.

I have been given to understand that in Farman No.51 - Kalam E Imam E Mubin (Holy Farmans of Mawlana Hazar Imam Sultan Mohomed Shah) - Imam says that God's Noor is Light.

So Shamsu - stop your rumor mongering business that Noor is Farman. Noor is Noor and Farman is Farman.

Regarding - he did not sin - Sultan Mohd mentioned that knowingly unknowingly people sin - Jesus Christ said that even a very good person will sin at least seven times a day. So though Pir Sadardeed did not do any bad thing - unknowingly he did sin - this is the law:

Yusuf - 12
53) "Nor do I absolve my own self (of blame): the (human soul) is certainly prone to evil unless my Lord do bestow His Mercy: but surely certainly my Lord is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful."

We follow the farman of the Lord like going to Jamatkhana, Praying, etc. and after the mercy from the Lord the soul is purified. Again the soul is prone to evil. Again we ask for forgiveness of the sin - Again the soul is purified due to mercy of the Lord, etc. etc. This process continues.

The mercy depends, amongst other things, on the Deeds of the person. Lord appointed Iblis as the Leader of Angels - When he did wrong - his position was that of an unbeliever.

Hope all is clear.[/color]
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 5:26 pm    Post subject: Ginan has Noor in it. Reply with quote

GEENAAN BOLO RE NEET NOORE BHARIYAA
BY PEER SADARDEEN


ejee geenaan bolo re neet noore bhariyaa
evo haidde tamaare harakh na maye ji.........................1

O momins: Recite the 'Geenaans' everyday as they are full of Light.
This will generate such joy and happiness that cannot
be contained in your hearts.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2003 5:59 pm    Post subject: farman makes paak Reply with quote

ALLAAH EK KHASAM SABUKAA
BY PEER HASSAN KABEERDEEN
ejee allaah ek khasam sabukaa, duneeyaa usakee saaree
aveechal naam khudaava(n)d bhanneeye
or sab meetteeyaa keree baajee
illaahee bhed ta(n)tav naam leeje
aapnne jeevdde kee chee(n)taa re momanbhaai keeje
aapne jeevddeku(n) dozakh na deeje..illaahee.................1

Allah is the only Lord of everything, the entire world is His(or under His command).
Understand the name(attribute) of the Lord as being eternal and everlasting and
the rest is all perishable and illusory. Extract(or obtain) the Divine mysteries from
the essence of His name(by constant remembrance and contemplation).
O brother momins, be mindful about the condition of your souls and do not
condemn your souls to hell.


ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam
musharak man to kaafar kaheeye, moman deel kuraan..illaahee..2

Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam. Only a kaafir
(infidel) has polytheistic tendencies in his/her mind(heart). But a momin's heart is
enlightened by Holy Qur'aan.



ejee paak paanee farmaane huvaa, sarovar nadeeyaa jaannee
befarmaanee paak na hove, jo dhove so paanee..illaahee......11

The water(soul) is purified by obedience to the commands(Farmaans). In this way the ocean
(Imaam) knew(came into contact with) the rivers(mureeds). The ones who disobey the
Farmaans will not be purified even if they wash themselves in water.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2003 8:43 pm    Post subject: Ginan is Farman of Pir Reply with quote

Ginan is Farman of the Pir

The 50th Pir is Mowlana Shah Karim Al-Husayni.

The Farmans of Mowla are actually the Ginans of today while he makes them in his Pir Joma.

Reference Girbhavali

"Gnanma Shakshat Brahm nirinjan kahiyen"

KIM Farman 93 page 226


Imam Sultan Mohd Shah "Ame jetla deevas ahiyan cchiye, tetla deevas hamesha aavshu ane harroj tamne farman karshu. Jetla deevas ame ahiyan cchiye tetla deevas hamesha Noor nu Pani tamara dil ma redshu ane tamara Dil Noorani karshu. Tame pun hamesha sambhadva aavjo to tamne gano faydo thashe"

Clearly Imam has defined Farman as Noor nu pani




KIM I Farman 95 page 229

"Tamoae amne tamaro hath aapelo cche ane tame amari pannah ma ccho tyare, tamaro haath beejane nahi aapo; karran ke tamara ane amara vacche kai judai nathi"



KIM I Farman 96 last line

"Momin tatha murshid kyare pun juda nathi"


KIM I Farman 146 page 311 line number 12

"Momin no Ruh te Amaro Ruh cche"
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 1:01 am    Post subject: Re: Ginan is Farman of Pir Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
Ginan is Farman of the Pir

The 50th Pir is Mowlana Shah Karim Al-Husayni.

The Farmans of Mowla are actually the Ginans of today while he makes them in his Pir Joma.

Reference Girbhavali

"Gnanma Shakshat Brahm nirinjan kahiyen"

KIM Farman 93 page 226


Imam Sultan Mohd Shah "Ame jetla deevas ahiyan cchiye, tetla deevas hamesha aavshu ane harroj tamne farman karshu. Jetla deevas ame ahiyan cchiye tetla deevas hamesha Noor nu Pani tamara dil ma redshu ane tamara Dil Noorani karshu. Tame pun hamesha sambhadva aavjo to tamne gano faydo thashe"

Clearly Imam has defined Farman as Noor nu pani




KIM I Farman 95 page 229

"Tamoae amne tamaro hath aapelo cche ane tame amari pannah ma ccho tyare, tamaro haath beejane nahi aapo; karran ke tamara ane amara vacche kai judai nathi"



KIM I Farman 96 last line

"Momin tatha murshid kyare pun juda nathi"


KIM I Farman 146 page 311 line number 12

"Momin no Ruh te Amaro Ruh cche"


You mention "The Farmans of Mowla are actually the Ginans of today". The farmans are not ginans of today. Farman are farmans and ginans are ginans. Both have their own different style of conveying the message. Farmans are directly from the Lord whereas Ginans the pirs have written -

Quran mention:

Al-Araf, or The Heights (VII)
181) Of those We have created are people who direct (others) with truth, and dispense justice therewith.

Also Noor nu Pani and "Noor are two different things. Quran reveals Allah sets out parable. He is the Noor and everyone has the spark of His light. Noor nu Pani = Spark of His Light. Natually - with the sparks of his light - the dil will become noorani - is it not.

Farman karisu - Sultan Mohd Shah has mentioned read farmans so and so - One cannot read the Light of God and sultan mohd shah said Noor of Allah is Light. So farman is farman and noor is noor.
You know in the jamatkhana or in front of the Imam himself after he gives the farman in English - the translator says noor mawlana hazar imam e farmavyu - he does not say noor mawlana hazar imam e nooravyu or something similar like this:

In fact KIM I farman 95 page 229 which you quote mention:
Till we do not give him the authority do not follow his farman.
Farman is a message not the Noor - you will find this in quran also.

Re: KIM I Farman 95 page 229
"Tamoae amne tamaro hath aapelo cche ane tame amari pannah ma ccho tyare, tamaro haath beejane nahi aapo; karran ke tamara ane amara vacche kai judai nathi"
-------------
I am sure abut the bracket, however I am also quoting from the Quran which matches:

Al-Fat-h or Victory (XLVIII)
10) Verily those who give you their allegiance, they give their allegiance to Allah: the hand of Allah is over their hands: then anyone who violates his oath, does so to the harm of his own soul, and anyone who fulfills what he has covenanted with Allah - Allah will soon grant him a great reward.

Regarding soul - already made clear in earlier posting that allah has made every one from his soul. Refer that and "then anyone who violates his oath, does so to the harm of his own soul".

KIM I Farman 96 last line
"Momin tatha murshid kyare pun juda nathi"

Quran says that God is near to us than our vein:

Qaf - 50
16) It was We who created man and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2003 5:04 pm    Post subject: Ginan,Farman and Noor Reply with quote

Noor means Divine light.Noor is light of Allah.Imam is incarnation of Noor.Niyaz i.e Aab-e-shifa is also Noor.Farman and Ginans are also Noor .Ginan bolo re neeta nurrey bhareeya means always recite Ginans which are filled with Noor.In a book called Jawahir Ginan published by ismailia association for pakistan word noor is used for ginan
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star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2003 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have already given reference to you of a book in which word noor is used for Ginan and how can you say that Imam is incarnation of Noor is against Farman or Quran?
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2003 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

star_munir wrote:
I have already given reference to you of a book in which word noor is used for Ginan and how can you say that Imam is incarnation of Noor is against Farman or Quran?


Quote the farman of the Imam of the Time because that is the truth and not book quotation which is not the farman of the imam of the time. Regarding your other statement - it has been duly replied by the Guest taken into account the farman.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2003 1:34 pm    Post subject: Farman v/s Ginan Reply with quote

I think when Pir and Shah are in seperate Joma like at the time of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (salwat), Imam Aly Shah was the Pir and He made Farmans to Jamat, it is easier to understand the difference between Farman and Ginan.

In KIM I Imam SMS (salwat) has stated

"Amara Farman aej Ginan cche" at one place and in another he has stated

"Pehla Amara Firman, pacchi Ginan"

I think in the first instance Imams Farman was as the Pir and in the second as Imam.
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2003 2:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Farman v/s Ginan Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
I think when Pir and Shah are in seperate Joma like at the time of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (salwat), Imam Aly Shah was the Pir and He made Farmans to Jamat, it is easier to understand the difference between Farman and Ginan.

In KIM I Imam SMS (salwat) has stated

"Amara Farman aej Ginan cche" at one place and in another he has stated

"Pehla Amara Firman, pacchi Ginan"

I think in the first instance Imams Farman was as the Pir and in the second as Imam.


In the KIM you mention - there are other things mentioned something like Ali, as per the holy prophet's vasiyat, took the book and went to the Masjid. However, people rejected the book saying they have Hajrat Usman's book and that is enough for them and Ali says to them they will not profit even from it and left with the book and that book has been in the form of ginans by the pir - so ginans contain his message - the message of god. Also his farman is to follow the latest message. Even the Quran reveals that during the time of holy prophet muhammad itself allah changed his farmans many times over.
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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2003 11:44 pm    Post subject: Bye Bye Reply with quote

I have noticed that the Admin or Moderator, i.e. Umed, has started deleting my postings judging it from his point of view even though his point of view goes against the farman and the quran, I am no longer interested in posting in the forum.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Farman v/s Ginan Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
shamsu wrote:
I think when Pir and Shah are in seperate Joma like at the time of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (salwat), Imam Aly Shah was the Pir and He made Farmans to Jamat, it is easier to understand the difference between Farman and Ginan.

In KIM I Imam SMS (salwat) has stated

"Amara Farman aej Ginan cche" at one place and in another he has stated

"Pehla Amara Firman, pacchi Ginan"

I think in the first instance Imams Farman was as the Pir and in the second as Imam.


In the KIM you mention - there are other things mentioned something like Ali, as per the holy prophet's vasiyat, took the book and went to the Masjid. However, people rejected the book saying they have Hajrat Usman's book and that is enough for them and Ali says to them they will not profit even from it and left with the book and that book has been in the form of ginans by the pir - so ginans contain his message - the message of god. Also his farman is to follow the latest message. Even the Quran reveals that during the time of holy prophet muhammad itself allah changed his farmans many times over.


If it changed many times in 23 years. It(USMAN'S QURAN) should be obsolete by now as it is not even complete nor accurate.

So can you quit quoting irrelevent sentences from an obsolete, incomplete, inaccurate Hazrat Usman's Book.

I can not blame you. Your source was and is quite weak.

Start reading the Farmans of Mowla Bapa and you shall have a whole lot less fanatic, aggressive urges to cuss at people who actually pray for you everyday.

Our Quran is our Imam so accept that and move on. PLEASE.

Let go of Usman's Book for Mowla Bapa's sake.
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2003 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Farman v/s Ginan Reply with quote

shamsu wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
shamsu wrote:
I think when Pir and Shah are in seperate Joma like at the time of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (salwat), Imam Aly Shah was the Pir and He made Farmans to Jamat, it is easier to understand the difference between Farman and Ginan.

In KIM I Imam SMS (salwat) has stated

"Amara Farman aej Ginan cche" at one place and in another he has stated

"Pehla Amara Firman, pacchi Ginan"

I think in the first instance Imams Farman was as the Pir and in the second as Imam.


the KIM you mention - there are other things mentioned something like Ali, as per the holy prophet's vasiyat, took the book and went to the Masjid. However, people rejected the book saying they have Hajrat Usman's book and that is enough for them and Ali says to them they will not profit even from it and left with the book and that book has been in the form of ginans by the pir - so ginans contain his message - the message of god. Also his farman is to follow the latest message. Even the Quran reveals that during the time of holy prophet muhammad itself allah changed his farmans many times over.


If it changed many times in 23 years. It(USMAN'S QURAN) should be obsolete by now as it is not even complete nor accurate.

So can you quit quoting irrelevent sentences from an obsolete, incomplete, inaccurate Hazrat Usman's Book.

I can not blame you. Your source was and is quite weak.

Start reading the Farmans of Mowla Bapa and you shall have a whole lot less fanatic, aggressive urges to cuss at people who actually pray for you everyday.

Our Quran is our Imam so accept that and move on. PLEASE.

Let go of Usman's Book for Mowla Bapa's sake.


THERE YOU GO AGAIN REPEATING YOUR CONFUSIONS -
WHY ARE SAYING THE STANDARD TEXT OF QURAN AS "USMAN'S BOOK". HISTORY DOES REVEAL THAT IT WAS NOT COPIED FROM THE ORIGINAL BOOK OF ALLAH - THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU TERM IT AS USMAN'S QURAN. THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE INVOLVED IN COMPILATION.

MAWLA BAPA SAYS HISTORY IS IMPORTANT - SO HISTORY IS IMPORTANT. ALREADY FARMANS HAVE BEEN QUOTED ABOUT HISTORY AND ABOUT QURAN -

SO WHEN MAWLA BAPA SAYS HISTORY IS IMPORTANT AND MAWLA BAPA HAS GIVEN FARMANS ON QURAN - WHY DO YOU THINK MAWLA BAPA IS WRONG AND YOU ARE RIGHT BY SAYING

"should be obsolete by now as it is not even complete nor accurate"

FRIDAY - SEPTEMBER 25, 1964
---------------------
WHILE WORKING THROUGH THE TOPICS WHICH YOU MUST DISCUSS, I AM SURE YOU WILL NEVER FORGET THAT OUR FAITH IS BASED ON THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF HISTORY AND THAT WE SHOULD LEARN FROM HISTORY AND NOT THINK OUR PAST IS OF NO USE NOW AND THAT IT CAN THEREFORE BE REJECTED, ABBREVIATED OR ALTERED.

==

UMED IF YOU GO ON CONTINUING RUMOR MONGERING - PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW MUCH I SHOULD TOLERATE THE RUMOR MONGERING.
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shamsu



Joined: 15 Apr 2003
Posts: 644

PostPosted: Tue May 20, 2003 3:37 am    Post subject: Re: Farman v/s Ginan Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
shamsu wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
shamsu wrote:
I think when Pir and Shah are in seperate Joma like at the time of Imam Hasan Ali Shah (salwat), Imam Aly Shah was the Pir and He made Farmans to Jamat, it is easier to understand the difference between Farman and Ginan.

In KIM I Imam SMS (salwat) has stated

"Amara Farman aej Ginan cche" at one place and in another he has stated

"Pehla Amara Firman, pacchi Ginan"

I think in the first instance Imams Farman was as the Pir and in the second as Imam.


the KIM you mention - there are other things mentioned something like Ali, as per the holy prophet's vasiyat, took the book and went to the Masjid. However, people rejected the book saying they have Hajrat Usman's book and that is enough for them and Ali says to them they will not profit even from it and left with the book and that book has been in the form of ginans by the pir - so ginans contain his message - the message of god. Also his farman is to follow the latest message. Even the Quran reveals that during the time of holy prophet muhammad itself allah changed his farmans many times over.


If it changed many times in 23 years. It(USMAN'S QURAN) should be obsolete by now as it is not even complete nor accurate.

So can you quit quoting irrelevent sentences from an obsolete, incomplete, inaccurate Hazrat Usman's Book.

I can not blame you. Your source was and is quite weak.

Start reading the Farmans of Mowla Bapa and you shall have a whole lot less fanatic, aggressive urges to cuss at people who actually pray for you everyday.

Our Quran is our Imam so accept that and move on. PLEASE.

Let go of Usman's Book for Mowla Bapa's sake.


THERE YOU GO AGAIN REPEATING YOUR CONFUSIONS -
WHY ARE SAYING THE STANDARD TEXT OF QURAN AS "USMAN'S BOOK". HISTORY DOES REVEAL THAT IT WAS NOT COPIED FROM THE ORIGINAL BOOK OF ALLAH - THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU TERM IT AS USMAN'S QURAN. THERE WERE OTHER PEOPLE INVOLVED IN COMPILATION.

MAWLA BAPA SAYS HISTORY IS IMPORTANT - SO HISTORY IS IMPORTANT. ALREADY FARMANS HAVE BEEN QUOTED ABOUT HISTORY AND ABOUT QURAN -

SO WHEN MAWLA BAPA SAYS HISTORY IS IMPORTANT AND MAWLA BAPA HAS GIVEN FARMANS ON QURAN - WHY DO YOU THINK MAWLA BAPA IS WRONG AND YOU ARE RIGHT BY SAYING

"should be obsolete by now as it is not even complete nor accurate"

FRIDAY - SEPTEMBER 25, 1964
---------------------
WHILE WORKING THROUGH THE TOPICS WHICH YOU MUST DISCUSS, I AM SURE YOU WILL NEVER FORGET THAT OUR FAITH IS BASED ON THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF HISTORY AND THAT WE SHOULD LEARN FROM HISTORY AND NOT THINK OUR PAST IS OF NO USE NOW AND THAT IT CAN THEREFORE BE REJECTED, ABBREVIATED OR ALTERED.

==

UMED IF YOU GO ON CONTINUING RUMOR MONGERING - PLEASE LET ME KNOW HOW MUCH I SHOULD TOLERATE THE RUMOR MONGERING.




Q1]WHO CALLED IT USMAN'S QURAN FIRST?

A] IMAM HASAN ALYSHAH
B] IMAM AGA ALYSHAH
C] IMAM SULTAN MOHD. SHAH.
D] IMAM KARIM SHAH.
E] NONE OF THE ABOVE.


Q2] IN WHICH BOOK DOES THE FARMAN SAY THAT THINGS WERE REMOVED AND ADDED + "AAGAL NO PAACHAL ANE PACCHAL NO AAGAL"
REGARDING USMANS QURAN.

A] KALAME IMAME MUBEEN PART 1 FIRST EDITION.
B] KALAME IMAME MUBEEN PART 1 SECOND EDITION.
C] KALAME IMAME MUBEEN PART 2 FIRST EDITION.
D] KALAME IMAME MUBEEN PART 2 SECOND EDITION.
E] NONE OF THE ABOVE.



WHICH PERSON DOES THIS PARAGRAPH APPLY TO

When I say education, I mean more than acquisition of knowledge, more than mere facts, figures and book work. Education is a life-long experience in which qualities such as integrity, mental discipline, humility and honesty should be formed, particularly during the early years. [Speech 16 Nov. 1957]

A] GUEST
B] SHAMSU
C] ADMIN
D] ALL OF THE ABOVE
E] NONE OF THE ABOVE.


COME ON TRY IT. REFLECT, RESEARCH AND ANSWER CONFIDENTLY.

YA ALY MADAD

SHAMSU
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: YAM Reply with quote

This discussion started very good, but it got side tracked.

Want to wake up this old thread, which is really interesting. I'd love to hear what other participants have to say. Please have your say.
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a_27826



Joined: 03 Jan 2010
Posts: 321
Location: Da es salaam

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: YAM Reply with quote

tret wrote:
This discussion started very good, but it got side tracked.

Want to wake up this old thread, which is really interesting. I'd love to hear what other participants have to say. Please have your say.


i had once asked someone the difference between Soul and Spirit and got the following answer:

1. Soul can leave the body temporarily (e.g. when you are asleep or in deep meditation etc.) and goes away permanently at the time of death, whereas Spirit never leaves the body till at the time of death.

2. The soul is how you relate to others and how you understand yourself, whereas Spirit is how you relate to Allah.

3 Soul is the essence of all what makes us human and unique – our emotions, desires, experiences, thoughts, worries and joys etc. , whereas, Spirit is the essence of our divine nature.

4 Soul can get dirt by sinning and can be cleansed by doing good deeds, whereas, Spirit is divine and can’t get corrupted.

5 Soul desire this world, whereas, Spirit desire next world.

Also the Quran says something about the Spirit.

017:085 They will question you concerning the Spirit. Say: 'The Spirit is of the bidding of my Lord. You have been given of knowledge nothing except a little.'
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tret



Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1197

PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: YAM Reply with quote

a_27826 wrote:
tret wrote:
This discussion started very good, but it got side tracked.

Want to wake up this old thread, which is really interesting. I'd love to hear what other participants have to say. Please have your say.


i had once asked someone the difference between Soul and Spirit and got the following answer:

1. Soul can leave the body temporarily (e.g. when you are asleep or in deep meditation etc.) and goes away permanently at the time of death, whereas Spirit never leaves the body till at the time of death.

2. The soul is how you relate to others and how you understand yourself, whereas Spirit is how you relate to Allah.

3 Soul is the essence of all what makes us human and unique – our emotions, desires, experiences, thoughts, worries and joys etc. , whereas, Spirit is the essence of our divine nature.

4 Soul can get dirt by sinning and can be cleansed by doing good deeds, whereas, Spirit is divine and can’t get corrupted.

5 Soul desire this world, whereas, Spirit desire next world.

Also the Quran says something about the Spirit.

017:085 They will question you concerning the Spirit. Say: 'The Spirit is of the bidding of my Lord. You have been given of knowledge nothing except a little.'


Very beautiful. Thank you brother. And it makes sense.
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ismailignosis



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Examination of the terms "Soul" (nafs) and "Spirit" (ruh) in the Qur'an

Please find below an analysis of the terms ruh (spirit) and nafs (soul) in the Quran. You will find that the Quran never uses the word ruh to talk about the human soul. Instead, it uses the term nafs for the human soul - the soul which can do good or evil, commit sins, and is judged in the hereafter and leaves the body upon death. Interestingly, the Quran never speaks about the ruh in this way. Instread, the Ruh in the Quran is described as a singular entity - from which God has breathed into man. Thus, each human being has both a `soul` (nafs) and a `spirit` (ruh) which must be differentiated from each other.

A. What is the "Spirit" (Ruh) in the Qur'an:

The Spirit is a singular entity in the Qur'an as follows:

The Spirit is from God's Command and we know little about it (15:87 )
The Spirit brings the revelation to the Prophet's heart (26:192-195)
The Spirit belongs to God and He calls it "My Spirit" (15:28-29)
The angels are all connected to the Spirit; in another sense, the Spirit is the centre of all the angels (78:3icon_cool.gif
God helps the Prophets like Jesus with the Spirit (2:87, 2:253, 5:110)
Jesus is called the "Spirit from Him" (4:171)
God inspired the Prophet Muhammad with the Spirit (42:52)
God strengthens the believers with the Spirit (16:102. 58:22)
God sends down the Spirit from His Command upon his Servants (16:2, 40:15)
God breathed into Mary from the Spirit (21:19, 66:12)
The Spirit can take on a human image or form (19:17)
The Spirit both descends from God and ascends to God (70:4, 97:4)
God sent the Qur'an with the Spirit (16:102, 26:193)
God breathed into Adam "from My Spirit" (min ruhee). Note this is different from God breathing the Spirit as a whole into Adam. (15:29, 38:72)

It follows from the above that the Spirit is a single entity which performs functions and tasks on God's behalf. The Holy Imams in the hadiths tell us more about the Holy Spirit. The gist of these say that the Holy Spirit is greater than the Angels and it always remains with the Imams, guiding them on God`s behalf. But each human being has been given a share of this Spirit - evidenced by God breathing into Adam from His Spirit. So there is one Holy Spirit (capital "s") while each person has a "spirit" (small s) which is from the Holy Spirit. Since each person's spirit is from God's Spirit, this individual spirit in each person cannot be corrupted and cannot commit sins. The individual spirit, breathed by God into each person must be differentiatedfrom the human soul which we will discuss further later.

B. What is the "Soul" (nafs) in the Qur'an:

The soul has been created and proportioned by God (91:8 )
God has inspired the soul with the knowledge of what is right and wrong (91:9)
The one who succeeds is he who has purified and caused his soul to grow (91:8-12)
The soul will be judged in the hereafter and will receive what it has earned (2:281, 3:25, 3:30)
The soul is capable of commanding one to do evil (12:53, 50:16, 79:40)
The soul is capable of censoring itself (75:2)
The soul at peace is admitted into Paradise (89:27)Good deeds are done for the soul`s benefit (2:223)
The soul can be strengthened through spending in God`s way (2:265)
The soul will taste and experience death (3:185)
The soul can wrong or or destroy ruin itself, or commit sins and then seek pardon (4:110, 6:12, 6:20, 7:53, 9:42)
The soul has desires (5:70)
Allah receives souls when they die (39:42)

From the above we see that the nafs mentioned in the Qur'an is the same as the human soul which God has created and which each person must purify and grow. This soul is capable of incliding towards evil deeds and sins and even ruining itself but it is also capable of censoring itself and also acheiving peace whereby it enters Paradise. Thus, the Qurànic term nafs does mean `soul` and not merely *self*. The nafs according to the Quran, survives death, is judged and can be sent to Paradise or Hell. The ruh barely has an individuality - while each human being has a nafs which is ultimately responsible for its deeds in the world.
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    ismailignosis



    Joined: 09 Jul 2012
    Posts: 43

    PostPosted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

    An Examination of the terms "Soul" (nafs) and "Spirit" (ruh) in the Qur'an

    Please find below an analysis of the terms ruh (spirit) and nafs (soul) in the Quran. You will find that the Quran never uses the word ruh to talk about the human soul. Instead, it uses the term nafs for the human soul - the soul which can do good or evil, commit sins, and is judged in the hereafter and leaves the body upon death. Interestingly, the Quran never speaks about the ruh in this way. Instread, the Ruh in the Quran is described as a singular entity - from which God has breathed into man. Thus, each human being has both a `soul` (nafs) and a `spirit` (ruh) which must be differentiated from each other.

    A. What is the "Spirit" (Ruh) in the Qur'an:

    The Spirit is a singular entity in the Qur'an as follows:

    The Spirit is from God's Command and we know little about it (15:87 )
    The Spirit brings the revelation to the Prophet's heart (26:192-195)
    The Spirit belongs to God and He calls it "My Spirit" (15:28-29)
    The angels are all connected to the Spirit; in another sense, the Spirit is the centre of all the angels (78:3icon_cool.gif
    God helps the Prophets like Jesus with the Spirit (2:87, 2:253, 5:110)
    Jesus is called the "Spirit from Him" (4:171)
    God inspired the Prophet Muhammad with the Spirit (42:52)
    God strengthens the believers with the Spirit (16:102. 58:22)
    God sends down the Spirit from His Command upon his Servants (16:2, 40:15)
    God breathed into Mary from the Spirit (21:19, 66:12)
    The Spirit can take on a human image or form (19:17)
    The Spirit both descends from God and ascends to God (70:4, 97:4)
    God sent the Qur'an with the Spirit (16:102, 26:193)
    God breathed into Adam "from My Spirit" (min ruhee). Note this is different from God breathing the Spirit as a whole into Adam. (15:29, 38:72)

    It follows from the above that the Spirit is a single entity which performs functions and tasks on God's behalf. The Holy Imams in the hadiths tell us more about the Holy Spirit. The gist of these say that the Holy Spirit is greater than the Angels and it always remains with the Imams, guiding them on God`s behalf. But each human being has been given a share of this Spirit - evidenced by God breathing into Adam from His Spirit. So there is one Holy Spirit (capital "s") while each person has a "spirit" (small s) which is from the Holy Spirit. Since each person's spirit is from God's Spirit, this individual spirit in each person cannot be corrupted and cannot commit sins. The individual spirit, breathed by God into each person must be differentiatedfrom the human soul which we will discuss further later.

    B. What is the "Soul" (nafs) in the Qur'an:

    The soul has been created and proportioned by God (91:8 )
    God has inspired the soul with the knowledge of what is right and wrong (91:9)
    The one who succeeds is he who has purified and caused his soul to grow (91:8-12)
    The soul will be judged in the hereafter and will receive what it has earned (2:281, 3:25, 3:30)
    The soul is capable of commanding one to do evil (12:53, 50:16, 79:40)
    The soul is capable of censoring itself (75:2)
    The soul at peace is admitted into Paradise (89:27)Good deeds are done for the soul`s benefit (2:223)
    The soul can be strengthened through spending in God`s way (2:265)
    The soul will taste and experience death (3:185)
    The soul can wrong or or destroy ruin itself, or commit sins and then seek pardon (4:110, 6:12, 6:20, 7:53, 9:42)
    The soul has desires (5:70)
    Allah receives souls when they die (39:42)

    From the above we see that the nafs mentioned in the Qur'an is the same as the human soul which God has created and which each person must purify and grow. This soul is capable of incliding towards evil deeds and sins and even ruining itself but it is also capable of censoring itself and also acheiving peace whereby it enters Paradise. Thus, the Qurànic term nafs does mean `soul` and not merely *self*. The nafs according to the Quran, survives death, is judged and can be sent to Paradise or Hell. The ruh barely has an individuality - while each human being has a nafs which is ultimately responsible for its deeds in the world.
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