Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 7:25 pm Post subject: A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini
YAM, I am an Ismaili. I was born as an Ismaili and was raised in a predominantly Sunni surrounding. As an Ismaili, I understand our fundamental belief in the predominantly Batini focus of our Tariqah. However, there are questions that I need answers.
Before I ask my questions, I want to make clarifications. I'm in my 40s and have done extensive research and the questions I have are due to the fact that I don't have strong answers with references to the Qur'an. Therefore, please do not try to provide answers without making references to the Qur'an.
We as Ismailis know that Prophet Muhammad appointed Hazrat as the Imam during Ghadir-e-Khum. The corresponding reference is Sura 5 Ayat 67:
O Apostle, deliver (to the people), what has been
revealed to thee from thy Lord; and if thou did not do
so, then thou hast not delivered His Message, and Allah
will protect thee from the people. (Surah Ma'eda 5:67)
During Ghadir-e-Khum, we are taught that Prophet Muhammad said that he will be leaving both the Qur'an and the Rope of Allah (The Imam) and that all should hold fast to both.
And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah, and be not divided among yourselves. (Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)
As Muslim, we believe in the last revelation from Allah, which is the Qur'an and it is the final Word of Allah. Therefore, no Muslim is a Muslim if he doesn't believe in the Qur'an. The Qur'an has surahs, which can be categorized into 4 types of categories:
1. Category 1: Qur'an contains Mystical Surahs (e.g. Surah Nur)
2. Category 2: Qur'an contains Shariat Surahs (e.g. Commandments, Covenants, Law, etc)
3. Category 3: Qur'an contains Historical Surahs (e.g. Surah Al-Masadd aka Surah on Abu Lahab)
4. Category 4: Straight-forward Surahs (e.g. Surah Al-'Imran 3:103 on fasting during the month of Ramadan)
We also believe that we have the Imam of the Time who guides us to the path of Siratal Mustaqeem.
Here are my questions:
Q1: We Ismailis don't pray Namaz unlike the Ummah does. I know that in the Qur'an, there is nowhere Namaz mentioned, in fact it is mentioned by the word "Salat". That is irrelevant. What I need to know is when in the History where we Ismailis changed our format of prayers from Namaz to Du'a? I know that we used to have a different Du'a during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and he introduced our current Du'a. But historically, we as Ismailis must have been praying Namaz, just like Prophet Muhammad or Hazrat Aly used to pray. When in the chain of history we stopped and why?
Q2: Why do we NOT face Qibla since we have been instructed in the Qur'an to do so?
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:144)
I hear several answers such as Allah is everywhere but again, that is not a convincing answer. The Qur'an has clear instruction, then why do we not adhere?
Q3: Why do we not fast during the month of Ramadan? I have heard of both types of answers:
A1: "We Ismailis observe Batini fasting for the whole year rather than zahiri fasting for only 1 month." I really don't find this a convincing answer since Allah has instructed us to fast in the Qur'an so clearly in the following Surah:
Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)
A2: "We as Ismailis do fast, of course we do." Unfortunately, that is NOT the fact. We Khoja Ismailis do NOT fast and most of us DON'T at all during the month of Ramadan (besides Shukrawar-e-Bich). Why?
Q4: Why do we Ismailis are not taught Qur'an in REC? Why do we Ismailis shy away from learning to read and appreciate Qur'an? We spend quality time teaching Ginan (which is an excellent tradition)....then why not Qur'an? Why the GAP?
As you have noticed that I am making references to the Qur'an as I am a strong believer in the Qur'an & the IMAM. I feel that we as Ismaili have very strong Batini focused Tariqah but our Zahiri rituals are very different, why not consistent to what Qur'an has ordained.
I am a strong practicing Ismaili and I have asked several Al-waez who just can't simply provide me a decent quality answer referencing the Qur'an.
I would appreciate some quality answers in my search. Again, a gentle reminder - please do not try to provide answers without making references to the Qur'an.
Thank you.
Ya Aly Madad.
Last edited by kanada on Mon May 20, 2013 2:10 am, edited 5 times in total
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:15 am Post subject: Re: A Balance Struggle Between Zahiri vs. Batini - Please HE
kanada wrote:
Q1: We Ismailis don't pray Namaz unlike the Ummah does. I know that in the Qur'an, there is nowhere Namaz mentioned, in fact it is mentioned by the word "Salat". That is irrelevant. What I need to know is when in the History where we Ismailis changed our format of prayers from Namaz to Du'a? I know that we used to have a different Du'a during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and he introduced our current Du'a. But historically, we as Ismailis must have been praying Namaz, just like Prophet Muhammad or Hazrat Aly used to pray. When in the chain of history we stopped and why?
In our tariqa, zaheri part of salat is can be changed by the Imam of the Time without changing batini part of it.
But salat is there as prescribed in the Quran.
Regarding how to perform the salat that was left with Prophet Mohamad during that time and after the Prophet, the Imam of Time.
But why go that far back ?.........
why not ask "why obligatory salat during the time of Imam Sultan Mohamad Shah was different than of today's ?"
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 2:57 am Post subject: Re: A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini
kanada wrote:
Q2: Why do we NOT face Qibla since we have been instructed in the Qur'an to do so?
We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:144)
I hear several answers such as Allah is everywhere but again, that is not a convincing answer. The Qur'an has clear instruction, then why do we not adhere?
can you quote the farman from the present or a past Imam instructing "not to face The Sacred Masjid" during salat ?
i tried to "google" it but found this instead
Now, if I were on a golf-course, let us say, and it was the due occasion, I should pray to God. I should not make a show of it, but I should go apart to pray, and I should turn myself towards the South-East, towards Mecca.... There is value in formal observances. I think it is well that a man should make a habit of formal prayer night and morning, for protection and in thanks. But, I place emphasis on the continual direct relation between God and man. And of recent years the best of Islam has done the same.
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:44 am Post subject: Re: A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini
kanada wrote:
Q3: Why do we not fast during the month of Ramadan? I have heard of both types of answers:
A1: "We Ismailis observe Batini fasting for the whole year rather than zahiri fasting for only 1 month." I really don't find this a convincing answer since Allah has instructed us to fast in the Qur'an so clearly in the following Surah:
Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)
A2: "We as Ismailis do fast, of course we do." Unfortunately, that is NOT the fact. We Khoja Ismailis do NOT fast and most of us DON'T at all during the month of Ramadan (besides Shukrawar-e-Bich). Why?
Again a "farman" is needed about not to "sawm".
002:183 O believers, prescribed for you is the siyamu, even as it was prescribed for those that were before you -- haply you will be god-fearing --
In Islam, don't follow the followers, rather follow Quran and Imam of the Time so that you don't get lost.
All sayings by a past imam is valid till a latter imam says otherwise.
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:49 am Post subject: Re: A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini
a_27826 wrote:
kanada wrote:
Q3: Why do we not fast during the month of Ramadan? I have heard of both types of answers:
A1: "We Ismailis observe Batini fasting for the whole year rather than zahiri fasting for only 1 month." I really don't find this a convincing answer since Allah has instructed us to fast in the Qur'an so clearly in the following Surah:
Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)
A2: "We as Ismailis do fast, of course we do." Unfortunately, that is NOT the fact. We Khoja Ismailis do NOT fast and most of us DON'T at all during the month of Ramadan (besides Shukrawar-e-Bich). Why?
Again a "farman" is needed about not to "sawm".
002:183 O believers, prescribed for you is the siyamu, even as it was prescribed for those that were before you -- haply you will be god-fearing --
In Islam, don't follow the followers, rather follow Quran and Imam of the Time so that you don't get lost.
All sayings by a past imam is valid till a latter imam says otherwise.
Searched the nanowisdoms and got this
First of all, the relations of man to God: there are no priests and no monks. There is no confession of sins, except directly to God. A man who does not marry, who refuses to shoulder the responsibilities of fatherhood, of building up a home and raising a family through marriage, is severely condemned…. Reasonable fasting for a month in every year, provided a man’s health is not impaired thereby, is an essential part of the body’s discipline through which the body learns to renounce all impure desires. Adultery, alcoholism, slander and thinking evil of one’s neighbour are specifically and severely condemned. All men, rich and poor, must aid one another materially and personally…. Wars are condemned. Peace ought to be universal.
Chapter 2: Islam, The Religion of My Ancestors (The Memoirs of Aga Khan III)1954
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 3:58 am Post subject: Re: A Balance Struggle Between Zahiri vs. Batini
a_27826 wrote:
In our tariqa, zaheri part of salat is can be changed by the Imam of the Time without changing batini part of it.
Thank you for your response. I really need an answer that are reference to. Can you please point me in history when this happened? Any reference, like Farhad Daftary, perhaps? As I have said, till today, everyone is giving me loose responses. Please provide convincing response with references.Thanks!
a_27826 wrote:
But salat is there as prescribed in the Quran.
Yes, I am aware of that. I mentioned that clearly on my question.
a_27826 wrote:
Regarding how to perform the salat that was left with Prophet Mohamad during that time and after the Prophet, the Imam of Time.
But why go that far back ?.........
I am NOT interested in going back. Perhaps you did not read my question carefully. What I need to know is when in the History where we Ismailis changed our format of prayers from Namaz to Du'a? I know that we used to have a different Du'a during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and he introduced our current Du'a. But historically, we as Ismailis must have been praying Namaz, just like Prophet Muhammad or Hazrat Aly used to pray. When in the chain of history we stopped and why?
Last edited by kanada on Mon May 20, 2013 7:17 am, edited 2 times in total
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:37 am Post subject: Re: A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini
a_27826 wrote:
can you quote the farman from the present or a past Imam instructing "not to face The Sacred Masjid" during salat ?
I will not go into a conversation with counter questions, especially questions pertaining to where in Farman has MHI said we should not face Qibla because if the Iman has not said in any Farman that we should not, neither has he said that we should. This is NOT an answer at all, in fact it becomes a kind of chicken and the egg scenario, which to my opinion is not intellectual at all.
a_27826 wrote:
Now, if I were on a golf-course, let us say, and it was the due occasion, I should pray to God.
Again, this is NOT a conversation if a person is at Golf course, or at Picnic or at a Hospital or in a University. Please, I am not discussing on this level at all. We all know that if we are in a situation, we as Ismailis know what to do. I am speaking strictly on a position of a congragation level. In JK, we are not facing QIBLA, why since we are instructed to do so in Qur'an.
Last edited by kanada on Mon May 20, 2013 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:00 am Post subject: Re: A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini
a_27826 wrote:
Again a "farman" is needed about not to "sawm".
Again, I will not go into a conversation with counter questions, especially questions pertaining to where in Farman has MHI said we should not fast because if the Iman has not said in any Farman that we should not, neither has he said that we should. This is NOT an answer at all, in fact it becomes a kind of chicken and the egg scenario, which to my opinion is not intellectual at all.
a_27826 wrote:
In Islam, don't follow the followers, rather follow Quran and Imam of the Time so that you don't get lost.
Thank you...that puts me back to my track again. The Qur'an says clearly to fast during the month of Ramadan, so why don't we, especially Khoja Ismailis.
Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)
As I grew up, I have observed that we Khoja Ismailis have never taken this commandment seriously. Each time I ask this question, sorry but I get replies like you just did, where did our Imam said "NO". Well, why are we not trained since young during REC about this commandment? Why is that this is not in our curriculum for the kids? Why we Ismailis don't practice this at all? And those who does, like me, are doing it without see this as part of our active practicing Tariqah.
Each prophet came with the same message, i.e. To Keep The Commandments. It came to Prophet Musa, Prophet Isa and Prophet Muhammad. We can see the traces of this message even right now in Torah & Injil (New & Old Testaments). We should adhere to every testament that is in Qur'an. When it comes to this, why don't we?
Last edited by kanada on Mon May 20, 2013 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total
Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 5:07 am Post subject: Re: A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini
a_27826 wrote:
First of all, the relations of man to God: there are no priests and no monks. There is no confession of sins, except directly to God. A man who does not marry, who refuses to shoulder the responsibilities of fatherhood, of building up a home and raising a family through marriage, is severely condemned…. Reasonable fasting for a month in every year, provided a man’s health is not impaired thereby, is an essential part of the body’s discipline through which the body learns to renounce all impure desires. Adultery, alcoholism, slander and thinking evil of one’s neighbour are specifically and severely condemned. All men, rich and poor, must aid one another materially and personally…. Wars are condemned. Peace ought to be universal.
Chapter 2: Islam, The Religion of My Ancestors (The Memoirs of Aga Khan III)1954
Thank you for referencing. This is what I am looking for. So our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah has expressed in The Memoirs of Aga Khan III. In fact, here the Imam speaks of the commandments that I discussed in my earlier response to you.
So again, why are we Ismailils not practicing this? We are strict when it comes to Shukrawar-e-Bich but when it comes to Ramadan we don't observance for full month of fasting? Never! Why?
Last edited by kanada on Mon May 20, 2013 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total
When the Memoirs were published, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent a Talika to the Jamat. He said he has two audiences, the Jamat and the Others. He explained that the Memoirs were written for the other audience.
I have read the Memoirs many times, it is a very inspiring book but in view of his Talika we should not be mistaken and take it as a book of Farman.
When the Memoirs were published, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent a Talika to the Jamat. He said he has two audiences, the Jamat and the Others. He explained that the Memoirs were written for the other audience.
I have read the Memoirs many times, it is a very inspiring book but in view of his Talika we should not be mistaken and take it as a book of Farman.
Exactly, we should not be mistaken it to be a Farman. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah does touch on the commandment in his publication. That is an indication that we should adhere. By I fail to understand the GAP! Why the GAP?
When the Memoirs were published, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent a Talika to the Jamat. He said he has two audiences, the Jamat and the Others. He explained that the Memoirs were written for the other audience.
I have read the Memoirs many times, it is a very inspiring book but in view of his Talika we should not be mistaken and take it as a book of Farman.
I suppose, the rule of this forum doesn't allow talikas to be posted.
interpretation of "not quoted talika" becomes difficult to grasp.
Its quite difficult to accept (as you implied) that Imam doest want his followers to believe what he says in public.
We have Imam from the progeny of the prophet who is
1. Infallible
2. Sinless
3. Pure
4. Ahl-e-zikr
Those who believe in him do taqlid on him.
Imam expects his followers to do taqlid on him.
Nicholas Tomalin: Have you used your power to make any radical changes in the Ismaili religion?
Aga Khan: You don’t change the religion. But you might change certain traditions. For instance, my grandfather made it quite clear to the Ismaili Community that women were not to wear the veil, and they no longer do. I have not made any strong directives of this type. But I hope I am modern in my outlook, and I know that in many ways I am a different sort of person from my grandfather. This will necessarily subtly change the character of the Faith.
His Highness the Aga Khan's 1965 The London Sunday Times Interview with Nicholas Tomalin (London, United Kingdom)
NT: You have been compared to the Pope. Is your word, like his infallible?
AK: The Imam’s word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It’s one of the particularities of Ismailis. An Ismaili who did not obey my word in matters of Faith, would not be excommunicated, he would still be a Muslim. He simply would no longer be a member of the Jamat — the Community of Ismaili Muslims.
One has to make a very careful distinction here between worldly and religious matters. An Ismaili may ask my advice on a worldly problem, then not accept it. But if he were to ignore the Imam’s decision on matters of Faith, the Community pressures on him would be very strong.
The Sunday Times Interview, Part I, Nicholas Tomalin, ‘The Ruler Without A Kingdom’ (London, United Kingdom) 12 December 1965
But I think, I am guilty of derailing the main topic of “why a certain caste called khoja in the Ismaili community don’t follow some parts of the Quran”
Those who believe in him do taqlid on him. Imam expects his followers to do taqlid on him.
This is getting very interesting. Please explain to me what is TAQLID. I do not know and nor do I understand.
a_27826 wrote:
But I think, I am guilty of derailing the main topic of “why a certain caste called khoja in the Ismaili community don’t follow some parts of the Quran”
It appears that you may not be Khoja Ismaili. Is that true? If that is, may I ask which Ismaili are you? Afghan, Syrian, or? The reason I ask is because I need to understand what is an Afgan or Syrian Ismaili's position on my questions?
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