can humans BE God?

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote:No doubt there are over hundred thousands of Tafsirs and interpretations of Quran available, I do not argue with that, but I have noticed when kmaherali is trapped, is clueless, is drifted away from topic, or give wrong explanation you jumped in to rescue him as fire fighter. It has happened many times.
Yes, a friend in need is friend indeed, how's that!!
I am very clear in my views and not at all confused. You quoted:

AARIF WA MA'RUUF BI MON YAKEEST
AA(N) KI KHUDA RA BI SHANASAD KHUDEEST

The knower and the known are the same
Who ever knows God (perfectly) is God himself

Based on that a human being can become God.

You are confused because you don't seem to understand the implications of your own post. On the one hand you post that man can become God whereas on the other you are saying he cannot.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: Conclusion:

In this article, we have examined various points of Ismaili approach of classical theism against traditional theism. We have examined how Ismaili Philosophy describes Taw’heed at different levels:

Firstly that God is ‘One’, and an Absolute Reality which transcends time and space, analogy or description.

Secondly, the assertion that human minds are incapable to grasp an understanding or comprehension of the Ultimate Reality.

Thirdly, Ismaili Philosophers place God beyond the attributes described in the scriptures, and associate those attributes to the Universal Intellect. For them while God is Beyond all attributes, these are Manifested through His Divine Command in the Form of the Most Perfect Intellect also termed as Light of God in the Qur’an. The Command of God ‘Kun‘ is the source of manifestation of Divine attributes in ‘Nur‘ and hence the source of all being and therefore the point of origin towards which human beings seek to return.
According to Satpanth Ismailism the absolute unknowable and indescribable manifests in the Imam.

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889
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Post by Admin »

Same in the Farman dated 8 August 1164 in Alamut

"Mowlana is the Resurrector. He is the Lord of beings, the Lord who is existence
absolute, thereby excluding all existential determination, for He transcends all such."
swamidada_2
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Post by swamidada_2 »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:No doubt there are over hundred thousands of Tafsirs and interpretations of Quran available, I do not argue with that, but I have noticed when kmaherali is trapped, is clueless, is drifted away from topic, or give wrong explanation you jumped in to rescue him as fire fighter. It has happened many times.
Yes, a friend in need is friend indeed, how's that!!
I am very clear in my views and not at all confused. You quoted:

AARIF WA MA'RUUF BI MON YAKEEST
AA(N) KI KHUDA RA BI SHANASAD KHUDEEST

The knower and the known are the same
Who ever knows God (perfectly) is God himself

Based on that a human being can become God.

You are confused because you don't seem to understand the implications of your own post. On the one hand you post that man can become God whereas on the other you are saying he cannot.
I am clear in my mind. You are confusing your self. You wrote;" Based on that a human being can become God". So according to your statement Imam when born was not God but as a human achieved that status and become God as other Aarifs.
When a drop is merged with God it is the RAHMAH, blessings and acceptance of God to give him/her way to merge with Him.
swamidada_2
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Post by swamidada_2 »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: Conclusion:

In this article, we have examined various points of Ismaili approach of classical theism against traditional theism. We have examined how Ismaili Philosophy describes Taw’heed at different levels:

Firstly that God is ‘One’, and an Absolute Reality which transcends time and space, analogy or description.

Secondly, the assertion that human minds are incapable to grasp an understanding or comprehension of the Ultimate Reality.

Thirdly, Ismaili Philosophers place God beyond the attributes described in the scriptures, and associate those attributes to the Universal Intellect. For them while God is Beyond all attributes, these are Manifested through His Divine Command in the Form of the Most Perfect Intellect also termed as Light of God in the Qur’an. The Command of God ‘Kun‘ is the source of manifestation of Divine attributes in ‘Nur‘ and hence the source of all being and therefore the point of origin towards which human beings seek to return.
According to Satpanth Ismailism the absolute unknowable and indescribable manifests in the Imam.

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889
Please ponder on these statements.

Firstly that God is ‘One’, and an Absolute Reality which transcends time and space, analogy or description.

Secondly, the assertion that human minds are incapable to grasp an understanding or comprehension of the Ultimate Reality.

Thirdly, Ismaili Philosophers place God beyond the attributes described in the scriptures, and associate those attributes to the Universal Intellect. For them while God is Beyond all attributes, these are Manifested through His Divine Command in the Form of the Most Perfect Intellect also termed as Light of God in the Qur’an. The Command of God ‘Kun‘ is the source of manifestation of Divine attributes in ‘Nur‘ and hence the source of all being and therefore the point of origin towards which human beings seek to return.

First, God is an Absolute Reality.
Second, human minds are incapable to comprehend Him.
Third Universal Intellect is creation of God and not God Himself, and that Intellect is Noor of God.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: I am clear in my mind. You are confusing your self. You wrote;" Based on that a human being can become God". So according to your statement Imam when born was not God but as a human achieved that status and become God as other Aarifs.
When a drop is merged with God it is the RAHMAH, blessings and acceptance of God to give him/her way to merge with Him.
I am not confused at all. If human beings can become God, then the Imam as a perfect human being is God at birth.

MSMS became the Imam at the age of 8. When did he have time to do Ibadat to attain Fanna fi Allah. Hence Imams are born Imams with the status of God.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: First, God is an Absolute Reality.
Second, human minds are incapable to comprehend Him.
Third Universal Intellect is creation of God and not God Himself, and that Intellect is Noor of God.
But you quoted:

AARIF WA MA'RUUF BI MON YAKEEST
AA(N) KI KHUDA RA BI SHANASAD KHUDEEST

The knower and the known are the same
Who ever knows God (perfectly) is God himself

Hence humans can know God and become God through Maarifa.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

To elaborate upon the notion of the Imams being born Imams consider the following verses from Moman Chetamni about the circumstances of Hazart Ali's birth.

79) Eji Te Murtaza Ali avtare aa
Abu Talib ne gher avtar
Te Baitullah mahain peda thaya
Te shaher makka min jai Cheto.....

79. Murtaza Ali was born to Abu Talib in Baitulla, which is in Mecca.

80) Eji Mata ji gayata bait mahain
Tayat karvane saar
Ibadat karine jyare uthiya
Ali pedani same thai teniajwar Cheto.....

80. His mother was doing Baiyat and was in Ibadat when Hazrat Ali was born.

81) Eji Tare mataji pariya(n) vichar ma
Have gher gayani nathi var
Ta(n) kere ghar bijo hato
Teni bint fali bari thai teniajwar Cheto.....

81. Hazrat Ali's mother was surprised at this incident of Hazrat Ali being
born while she was praying for she was away from home when He was born.

82) Eji Tare mataji uthi te mahain gaya
Huran be aaviyoon te ghar ninjar
Te same Ali peda thaya
Te aad nirianjan noon avtar Cheto.....

82. She did not have to worry very long for two angels came to assist her
when Ali was born. Verily He is God Manifest.

83) Eji Tame sat divas aankhioon nahi aghariyoon
Mukh thi khirna pidhoon lagar
Tara nabi Mohd ne malum thayoon
Teto aaviya teaniaj var Cheto.....

83. For seven days He would not open His eyes and would not take any milk.
This made Prophet Muhammed realize (who Hazrat Ali was) and he cam to Him.

84) Eji Tare salam kidha sarvare
Ali ae aankhiyoon oghariyoon teaniaj var
Tare didar kidha nabi Mohamed tana
Mukh thi salam varyo ali kirtar Cheto.....

84. He (Prophet Muhammed) paid respects to Hazrat Ali, upon which He
opened His eyes and they mutually
saw each other and Hazrat Ali smiled at the Prophet.

85) Eji Tare mukh ughariyoon Mowla Ali jiae
Tena mukh mahain jib didhi sardar
Tya(n) bed sagharo samabara viya
Te char kitabaj saar Cheto.....

85. Since that day Hazrat Ali opened His mouth and has become our leader
(check this word). He has told us the secrets of here and after and His
words are the gist of the four scriptures.

86) Eji Tare potani kudarat rakhi pota kane
Nabi Mohammed samajya sarve vichar
Dhan dhan mat tat ne kahiae
Ay che aad nirinjan no avtar Cheto.....

86. Prophet Muhammed had understood Hazrat Ali's greatness and
congratulated His mother for being chosen to be the person through which God would manifest.

87) Eji Aene partham pahelo sahi kidho
Jyare ditha te shah na didar
Pache te muridone vataviyo
Te mahain je orkhashe te pamshe paar Cheto....

87. The Prophet first assured himself of Hazrat Ali and got His Holy
Didar. He then introduced Ali to the Momins and those who recognized Him indeed achieved salvation.

88) Eji Te satguru sahebjieay sreva kari
Shukrana kidha ati apaar
Ali ne te allah orakhiyo
Te mahain shak na aanio lagaar Cheto.....

88. So Momins, serve that Lord and be thankful for Ali is Allah and do not
ever doubt it.
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Post by Admin »

To interpret the expression translated as "Since that day" as from birth is contradicting and not compatible with the genealogy of Imams in the Asal Dua as recited under the Farman of Aga Ali Shah. Hazrat Ali became Imam when his father Abu Talib passed away.

It is later only that the theory of Imam since birth and Imam in power and Imam in action was developed. A theory whcih even recently made some Ismailis almost form their own sect with their semi-Imam who claimed half dassond from his murids.
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Post by kmaherali »

In my opinion and the concept of Imamat by Tusi, Imams are born Imams. However they become known to the world only after their appointment by the previous Imam.

Below are two anecdotes quoted form Mumtaz Tajdin's 225 anecdotes which can be accessed at: http://ismaili.net/source/books/225anecdotes.pdf about the childhood of MSMS worthy of reflection. Both of them involve childhood experiences before he became Imam.

(8) When Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah was yet in childhood, his mother took his proper care of nourishment. Sometimes, she angered and loved him too. In his childhood, the Imam liked sour lemon. Once in the winter, the Imam suffered from cold fever, to which the doctor was called. The doctor checked his pulse and gave medicine and told to Lady Aly Shah, “Don’t allow prince to go outside and also don’t let him to eat sour items, otherwise, it will cause him pneumonia at once.” The mother ordered her son not to leave his bed, otherwise she would punish him. She affectionately kissed him and ordered the house-servant to prepare coffee for him. After drinking coffee, the Imam slept till evening. In the meantime, she came in the kitchen and saw that her son was sucking lemons. She exclaimed, “Muhammad!” Hearing voice of mother, he stood at once and cleaned his mouth and tried to flee out, but she grasped his hand and said, “What are you doing here? The doctor told you not to leave the bed and don’t touch sour items. In this shivering winter, you are sucking juice of lemon.” The face of his mother
became red in anger and said, “Tell me! Why you are mum?” The Imam was frightened and tears burst out of his eyes. She said, “I don’t leave you and will make you forget sucking lemon.” She raised her hand to slap, but one servant came and said, “No, no mother. Don’t beat the prince.” The mother said, “Who are you to interfere? I will also punish you.” He replied, “Don’t worry. You punish me, but don’t punish the prince.” She said, “Why you gave him lemon?” He said, “I have not given. I don’t know when the prince came in the kitchen. I have just seen here before a moment. Nevertheless, I take
his sin on my shoulder. Don’t do anything with the prince.” She said, “It means you favour him.” He said, “Bye-God, I don’t know.” She held hand of her son and went on first floor, where she laid him on the bed and covered him with a blanket and said, “I will lock the room. You stay here tonight. I will now see how you go in the kitchen.” The Imam said, “Mom, I will never go in kitchen, never at all.” But she locked the room and kept its key with her.

Due to the anger of the mother, all the servants were terrified that the prince had been imprisoned. On other side, she was performing worship in a separate room, but could not gain concentration and figuring in mind, “My poor son is alone in the room, which is locked. No servant can enter to know his condition. How is my son? What will be his condition? Leave him alone in the room, which will not be unlocked tonight.” Thus, she tried to revert to her worship. She didn’t dine at night, so the servants too. In midnight,
she told to the servant to bring coffee for her. Suddenly, she saw at the main gate of the bungalow, which itself opened. The light at gate became off. She was surprised to see her son entering the gate, playing with his stick in two fingers. She exclaimed loudly, “Muhammad.” The servants awaked with her voice. His son replied, “Yes, Mom.” He climbed on the stair and came before the mother and tied his both hands round the waist from back side, embraced, and said, “Mom, I have come.” She said, “But I have
locked your room. Who opened it, how you came out? Where you have gone and returned in this shivering winter?”

Hearing it, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said, “O’ poor Mom! I am an Imam in the same way as my father.” Then he continued, “Everything is in the Manifest Imam.”

(9) In 1882, Imam Aga Ali Shah visited Rajkot in India with Lady Aly Shah and his son and successor, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah. The Imam graced didar to the jamat and said, “Look at my son Sultan Muhammad. In case he may feel loneliness, then you send your sons to play with him. There was one person, called Jivabhai, who had five sons: Devji, Lalji, Somji, Kassim and Nur Muhammad. These and other boys daily played with Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah at evening. One day, Nur Muhammad fell down by a jerk of the Imam. He sustained severe pain and wept too much. The Imam
caught his hand and took him to a safe side. The Imam said, “You have a little injury and crying too much. Keep quiet, otherwise I will hit with hand.” Nur Muhammad became silent. Since he has severe pain, he once again began to weep. This time, the Imam calmly said, “If you don’t complain to my mother, I will give you high tidings of the paradise and make hell unlawful for you.” Nur Muhammad said, “I will not complain to anyone.” The Imam said, “Are you sure that you will not tell to my mother and father. Is it your gentleman promise?” He replied, “Not at all. Then the Imam put his blessed hand on his leg and his pain vanished in a moment.
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Post by Admin »

These stories do not prove in any way that Imam is Imam since birth. No doubt, they are destined to be Imam since birth but there is a difference between Imam and his son before he becomes Imam.

Shah Karim for instance may have been Pir in the sense of Hujjat ul Imam while Sultan Muhammad Shah was alive, he may even have made some miracles, there are events pointing at that. But he became Imam on 11 Jul 1957 only.
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Post by swamidada_2 »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: I am clear in my mind. You are confusing your self. You wrote;" Based on that a human being can become God". So according to your statement Imam when born was not God but as a human achieved that status and become God as other Aarifs.
When a drop is merged with God it is the RAHMAH, blessings and acceptance of God to give him/her way to merge with Him.
I am not confused at all. If human beings can become God, then the Imam as a perfect human being is God at birth.

MSMS became the Imam at the age of 8. When did he have time to do Ibadat to attain Fanna fi Allah. Hence Imams are born Imams with the status of God.
You look confused with some kind of scientific equation or formula. Energy in making, potential energy, kinetic energy ......
Imam yet to born, potential Imam, kinetic Imam.....
During the life time of Imam Ali Shah, MSMS was not called Imam e Zamaan. So he was not God because there was already one God in action according to you otherwise there should haven duality.
Just for sake of understanding, for example Prince Rahim would be next Imam (it ia an example). At present he is not Imam. So to become God he has to do ibadat vigorously to become fana fi Allah to claim God when he becomes Imam!!
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Post by swamidada_2 »

kmaherali wrote:To elaborate upon the notion of the Imams being born Imams consider the following verses from Moman Chetamni about the circumstances of Hazart Ali's birth.

79) Eji Te Murtaza Ali avtare aa
Abu Talib ne gher avtar
Te Baitullah mahain peda thaya
Te shaher makka min jai Cheto.....

79. Murtaza Ali was born to Abu Talib in Baitulla, which is in Mecca.

80) Eji Mata ji gayata bait mahain
Tayat karvane saar
Ibadat karine jyare uthiya
Ali pedani same thai teniajwar Cheto.....

80. His mother was doing Baiyat and was in Ibadat when Hazrat Ali was born.
Admin does not allow critical study of Momin Chetamani, so my hands are tied. Syed Imam Shah was not a Satadari pir. There are some historical draw backs in the grunth.

Let me correct you in part 80.
Mata ji gayata bait mahein.... You translated it," His mother was doing Baiyat..." In this line bait means 'HOUSE' and not baiyat. The meaning of this line should be " Mata (Bibi Fatima bint Asad) went into house (means Baitullah)".

Let me give proof on your assertion;

swamidada

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PostPosted: 10 Jan 2020 11:38 am Post subject: Reply with quote

"In 1964, during Ismailia Association presidents meeting. Rai Shamsuddin Tejpar of Tanganika (Tanzania) association asked Hazar Imam about meaning of ALIYULLAH IN SECOND PART OF DUA. Imam replied it means " ALI IS FROM ALLAH".
Also, please refer my post and proof dated May 26,2019 in the thread," Dua old and new- Asal Dua..".
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Post by swamidada_2 »

kmaherali wrote:In my opinion and the concept of Imamat by Tusi, Imams are born Imams. However they become known to the world only after their appointment by the previous Imam.

Below are two anecdotes quoted form Mumtaz Tajdin's 225 anecdotes which can be accessed at: http://ismaili.net/source/books/225anecdotes.pdf about the childhood of MSMS worthy of reflection. Both of them involve childhood experiences before he became Imam.

(8) When Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah was yet in childhood, his mother took his proper care of nourishment. Sometimes, she angered and loved him too. In his childhood, the Imam liked sour lemon. Once in the winter, the Imam suffered from cold fever, to which the doctor was called. The doctor checked his pulse and gave medicine and told to Lady Aly Shah, “Don’t allow prince to go outside and also don’t let him to eat sour items, otherwise, it will cause him pneumonia at once.” The mother ordered her son not to leave his bed, otherwise she would punish him. She affectionately kissed him and ordered the house-servant to prepare coffee for him. After drinking coffee, the Imam slept till evening. In the meantime, she came in the kitchen and saw that her son was sucking lemons. She exclaimed, “Muhammad!” Hearing voice of mother, he stood at once and cleaned his mouth and tried to flee out, but she grasped his hand and said, “What are you doing here? The doctor told you not to leave the bed and don’t touch sour items. In this shivering winter, you are sucking juice of lemon.” The face of his mother
became red in anger and said, “Tell me! Why you are mum?” The Imam was frightened and tears burst out of his eyes. She said, “I don’t leave you and will make you forget sucking lemon.” She raised her hand to slap, but one servant came and said, “No, no mother. Don’t beat the prince.” The mother said, “Who are you to interfere? I will also punish you.” He replied, “Don’t worry. You punish me, but don’t punish the prince.” She said, “Why you gave him lemon?” He said, “I have not given. I don’t know when the prince came in the kitchen. I have just seen here before a moment. Nevertheless, I take
his sin on my shoulder. Don’t do anything with the prince.” She said, “It means you favour him.” He said, “Bye-God, I don’t know.” She held hand of her son and went on first floor, where she laid him on the bed and covered him with a blanket and said, “I will lock the room. You stay here tonight. I will now see how you go in the kitchen.” The Imam said, “Mom, I will never go in kitchen, never at all.” But she locked the room and kept its key with her.

Due to the anger of the mother, all the servants were terrified that the prince had been imprisoned. On other side, she was performing worship in a separate room, but could not gain concentration and figuring in mind, “My poor son is alone in the room, which is locked. No servant can enter to know his condition. How is my son? What will be his condition? Leave him alone in the room, which will not be unlocked tonight.” Thus, she tried to revert to her worship. She didn’t dine at night, so the servants too. In midnight,
she told to the servant to bring coffee for her. Suddenly, she saw at the main gate of the bungalow, which itself opened. The light at gate became off. She was surprised to see her son entering the gate, playing with his stick in two fingers. She exclaimed loudly, “Muhammad.” The servants awaked with her voice. His son replied, “Yes, Mom.” He climbed on the stair and came before the mother and tied his both hands round the waist from back side, embraced, and said, “Mom, I have come.” She said, “But I have
locked your room. Who opened it, how you came out? Where you have gone and returned in this shivering winter?”

Hearing it, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said, “O’ poor Mom! I am an Imam in the same way as my father.” Then he continued, “Everything is in the Manifest Imam.”
Such kind of anecdotes were coined by our senior and old missionaries. They were master of coining such stories. I do not blame them. They had to make iman of momineen strong. When new generation started questioning, arguing authenticity of such stories missionaries had no proofs, unable to satisfy youth. Such kind of anecdotes even till today keep popping up.
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Post by Admin »

swamidada wrote: Such kind of anecdotes were coined by our senior and old missionaries. They were master of coining such stories. I do not blame them. They had to make iman of momineen strong. When new generation started questioning, arguing authenticity of such stories missionaries had no proofs, unable to satisfy youth. Such kind of anecdotes even till today keep popping up.
This is such a ridiculous and insulting statement. You are talking with contempt of people who had a zillion time more knowledge and faith that you can ever claim to. People who were contemporary of the event they were quoting. You are treating of fraud missionaries and Da'is who dedicated their life to our Imam.

You have played this game all the time. I am asking you to stay out of any doctrinal discussion. You wanted to be able to read the Forums. That is the only permission you have.
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Post by kmaherali »

Admin wrote:These stories do not prove in any way that Imam is Imam since birth. No doubt, they are destined to be Imam since birth but there is a difference between Imam and his son before he becomes Imam.

Shah Karim for instance may have been Pir in the sense of Hujjat ul Imam while Sultan Muhammad Shah was alive, he may even have made some miracles, there are events pointing at that. But he became Imam on 11 Jul 1957 only.
As I said the Imams are born as Imams and Tusi goes as far as saying that the Imams are in the sperm. However they become recognized as Imams only after their worldly appointment.

Hence there is no ambiguity or speculation about the next Imam.

In one of the anecdotes, Imam said he was the Imam like his father. Unless you consider the anecdote itself as a lie, then it is a convincing proof.
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Post by kmaherali »

In the book "Paradise of Submission" by Nasir al-Din Tusi (pg. 123) , Imam Hassan Ala Zikaris Salaam is quoted as saying "'We are the people of eternity'(quoting Imam Jaffer as sadiq).[The essential nature of the Imam will never change], even when he is a drop of sperm in the loins of his father, or [a fetus] in the womb of his mother."
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: "In 1964, during Ismailia Association presidents meeting. Rai Shamsuddin Tejpar of Tanganika (Tanzania) association asked Hazar Imam about meaning of ALIYULLAH IN SECOND PART OF DUA. Imam replied it means " ALI IS FROM ALLAH".
Also, please refer my post and proof dated May 26,2019 in the thread," Dua old and new- Asal Dua..".
You are totally confused. On the one hand you provide us with a quote that the knower of God becomes God. Now you are stating that Ali is NOT Allah.

Where do you stand?
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: You look confused with some kind of scientific equation or formula. Energy in making, potential energy, kinetic energy ......
Imam yet to born, potential Imam, kinetic Imam.....
During the life time of Imam Ali Shah, MSMS was not called Imam e Zamaan. So he was not God because there was already one God in action according to you otherwise there should haven duality.
Just for sake of understanding, for example Prince Rahim would be next Imam (it ia an example). At present he is not Imam. So to become God he has to do ibadat vigorously to become fana fi Allah to claim God when he becomes Imam!!
There can be many individuals who are Fanna Fi Allah at a given time. MSMS has indicated that there have been souls who have become Fanna Fi Allah. The existence of 313 momins is an example.
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Post by swamidada_2 »

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Post by Admin »

kmaherali wrote:As I said the Imams are born as Imams and Tusi goes as far as saying that the Imams are in the sperm. However they become recognized as Imams only after their worldly appointment.

Hence there is no ambiguity or speculation about the next Imam.

In one of the anecdotes, Imam said he was the Imam like his father. Unless you consider the anecdote itself as a lie, then it is a convincing proof.
It is a mater of interpretation. Imam says beside him nobody know who will be the next Imam. And Shah Karim said he had no idea he would be next Imam.

Further more Imam does no appoint the next Imam, he points out who is the next Imam to be. This said nothing stops the Imam to tell the Jamat who will be next Imam.

I love Tussi but I do not consider him infallible.

So lets agree to disagree on this matter.
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: You are selective in answering. You did not payed attention to part 80 of of Momin Chetamani i.e;

Let me correct you in part 80.
Mata ji gayata bait mahein.... You translated it," His mother was doing Baiyat..." In this line bait means 'HOUSE' and not baiyat. The meaning of this line should be " Mata (Bibi Fatima bint Asad) went into house (means Baitullah)".
It does not change the substance of my point that the Imams are born Imams, hence I did not both to comment on it.
swamidada wrote: Regarding Ali Allah statement I have quoted Hazar Imam. Please keep in mind these are not my wordings. There is proper documentation of this statement of Hazar Imam. I obey Hidayat of Hazar Imam.
So why did you quote the verse which says that a man can know and become God? Do you just make posts before thinking? Don't you realize that you are contradicting yourself?
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Post by kmaherali »

Admin wrote: I love Tussi but I do not consider him infallible.

So lets agree to disagree on this matter.
It is not Tusi who said it. He quoted the Imam in his book.
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Post by swamidada_2 »

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Meaning of Imamat - Ismaili

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An old but interesting article on the meaning of Imamat

For a better reading download the PDF version

http://ismaili.net/source/imamat.pdf



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kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

Early Nizari Ismailism: A Critical Edition and Annotated Translation of Khwajah Qasim Tushtari’s Recognizing God

Shafique N. Virani
Department of Historical Studies, University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada

ABSTRACT

Khwajah Qasim Tushtari’s recently discovered Recognizing God (Maʿrifat-i Khuday taʿala) is one of the only texts known to have survived from the early Alamut period of Ismaili Muslim history. It preserves evidence of the “new Invitation” (daʿwat-i jadid) to the Ismaili faith that al-Shahrastani
(d. 548/1153) tells us was inaugurated by the Fatimid Imam al-Mustansir billah (d. 487/1094) and championed by Hasan-i Sabbah (d. 518/1124). The text emphasises that the ultimate purpose of human existence is to know God, and that the path to this knowledge is through the Imam of the Time. Likely composed between 525/1131 and 533/1139, the text contains near-contemporary references to Sanaʾi Ghaznawi (d. ca. 525/1131) and points to the very early development of Persian pious, devotional and homiletic poetry as well as the “mathnawi metre” in Ismaili environments. This metre was later famously used by Farid al-Din ʿAttar (d. ca. 618/1221) and Jalalal-Din Rumi (d. 672/1273) in their mystical compositions. The article includes an introduction, critical edition and annotated translation to Qasim Tushtari’s Recognizing God.

The article can be accessed at:

https://www.academia.edu/41255340/Early ... load-paper
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Post by swamidada_2 »

jees bahestme(n) mot na aave, sohee takhat khudaakaa jaan;
khudaa to sab tthorme(n) bastaa, khaalee nahee us been makaan;
sab kul usame(n) vo sabme(n), baaher bheetar hae bharpur;
aysaa samaj jo usame(n) meeleeyaa, so laa mot huaa usakaa nur...246

The paradise in which there is no death, is truly the throne of God. God is present everywhere, There is no place where He does not exist. Everything is in Him, and He is in everything, He is omnipresent inside and outside. If one has attained such an understanding, then his light has become deathless(immortal).
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

The above verse is from Kalame Mowla
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Post by swamidada_2 »

kmaherali wrote:The above verse is from Kalame Mowla
The quatrain quoted from Kalam e Mowla confirm Allah is Supreme. According to Surah Ikhlas, there is no one like Him in universe. Also this quatrain mentions the concept of Ham e Ost.
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: The quatrain quoted from Kalam e Mowla confirm Allah is Supreme. According to Surah Ikhlas, there is no one like Him in universe. Also this quatrain mentions the concept of Ham e Ost.
Yes there is no denying that Allah is Supreme. However he can be experienced and known by extra ordinary means attained through spiritual enlightenment.

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

lbn-Rushd, the great Muslim philosopher, known to Europe as Averroes, established clearly the great distinction between two kinds of apprehensible human experience : on the one hand, our experience of nature as we recognize it through our senses, whence comes our capacity to measure and to count (and with that capacity all that it brought in the way of new events and new explanations); and on the other hand, our immediate and imminent experience of something more real, less dependent on thought or on the processes of the mind, but directly given to us, which I believe to be religious experience. Naturally, since our brain is material, and its processes and all the consequences of its processes are material, the moment that we put either thought or spiritual experience into words, this material basis of the brain must give a material presentation to even the highest, most transcendent spiritual experience. But men can study objectively the direct and subjective experiences of those who have had spiritual enlightenment without material intervention.

It is said that we live, move and have our being in God. We find this concept expressed often in the Koran, not in those words of course, but just as beautifully and more tersely. But when we realize the meaning of this saying, we are already preparing ourselves for the gift of the power of direct experience. Roumi and Hafiz, the great Persian poets, have told us, each in his different way, that some men are born with such natural spiritual capacities and possibilities of development that they have direct experience of that great love, that all-embracing, all-consuming love, which direct contact with reality gives to the human soil. Hafiz indeed has said that men like Jesus Christ and Muslim mystics like Mansour and Bayezid and others have possessed that spiritual power of the greater love; that any of us, if the Holy Spirit (*) ever present grants us that enlightenment, can, being thus blessed, have the power which Christ had, but that to the overwhelming majority of men this greater love is not a practical possibility.

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html
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