can humans BE God?

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:16 pm

I would assume

Aly_shallwani · Post by **Aly_shallwani** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:10 am

nargisk3 wrote:Hi. In my REC class, we were having a discussion which I guess I believe, but I wasn't too sure about it- we believe that God is everywhere, and He is a part of us, and that we're also a part of Him. After doing Ibadat, etc., we have to power to be one with Him as well..but in REC, my teacher said that since God is in us, we also have the Nur in us (the same Nur which the Imam has), and that we can also BE God. What is ya'lls input on this? I guess I believe it, but I'm not too sure, since I've never really heard this concept before.

You have a great misconcept we can not be Imam or Allah i'll tell you why the nur in us is *noor juz* and the nur of Allah is *nure kul* nure juz means a little part of nur and nure kul means complete nur I think now this question will not arise again your teacher has given a wrong answer I think so!

Aly_shallwani · Post by **Aly_shallwani** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:28 am

A man can never become God even if he sees nur by isme Azam in Ibadat and even he gets to the last stage but he will not be God as there's one story once there was a deedar and Hazir imam was giving isme azam to all which were present there Mowla tell a man to stand andhe was the man I think he was on any stage Mowla told him how do you feel now he said i cannot express my lord;; Mowla told him to express again he told that i feel as world is in my hand and i can turn the world when i trun my hand this was the story but see that man could not explain and express his feelings in words But Imam can explain it brillianltly thats the case i thing!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:30 am

Aly_shallwani wrote:You have a great misconcept we can not be Imam or Allah i'll tell you why the nur in us is *noor juz* and the nur of Allah is *nure kul* nure juz means a little part of nur and nure kul means complete nur I think now this question will not arise again your teacher has given a wrong answer I think so!

Noor juz can elevate itself to Noor Kul. That is the idea of merging into the noor as per the following verse of the Ginan 'Sat Gur Saathe Gothari kije' that I recited last week. Once a small river merges into the ocean, it is not a river anymore it is the ocean!

jeere vaalaa pad mugateenaa sarave saadh leennaa(n)

to sat cheet aana(n)d - re vaalaa

kahe gur sohodev amane sree haree maleeyaa

jem saritaa saayar maa(n)he samaannee - re vaalaa....5

Oh loved ones, all the saints (devoted souls) will attain the exalted

rank of freedom which contains the experience of the Truth,

Consciousness and Joy (sat chit anand). The Guide Sohdev

(Peer Sadardeen) says: "we have attained the Lord in the manner

of small rivers meeting and blending with the ocean".

Aly_shallwani · Post by **Aly_shallwani** » Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:33 am

kmaherali wrote:
Aly_shallwani wrote:You have a great misconcept we can not be Imam or Allah i'll tell you why the nur in us is *noor juz* and the nur of Allah is *nure kul* nure juz means a little part of nur and nure kul means complete nur I think now this question will not arise again your teacher has given a wrong answer I think so!
Noor juz can elevate itself to Noor Kul. That is the idea of merging into the noor as per the following verse of the Ginan 'Sat Gur Saathe Gothari kije' that I recited last week. Once a small river merges into the ocean, it is not a river anymore it is the ocean!

jeere vaalaa pad mugateenaa sarave saadh leennaa(n)

to sat cheet aana(n)d - re vaalaa

kahe gur sohodev amane sree haree maleeyaa

jem saritaa saayar maa(n)he samaannee - re vaalaa....5

Oh loved ones, all the saints (devoted souls) will attain the exalted

rank of freedom which contains the experience of the Truth,

Consciousness and Joy (sat chit anand). The Guide Sohdev

(Peer Sadardeen) says: "we have attained the Lord in the manner

of small rivers meeting and blending with the ocean".

we'll be absorbed or you can say mixed in the Allah's nur which is nure kul but you have not understood this line in the ginan that nure juz will be absorbed in nure kul when we'll die and the person can also be absorbed in his life only by doing ibadat and with the power of his isme azam but he;ll not be Allah or God as Mansoorulhaq said that he is Allah if he's Allah then Then there is no use of Imam in this world I am trying to tell you that A man can be absorbed in the nure kul in his life but he will not express it infront of other ismailies Becasue for that Imam has not told them and also they can not express as they have no words to tell But imam is the real God. Ok and kmaherali plz dont misunderstand me.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:51 am

Aly_shallwani wrote:we'll be absorbed or you can say mixed in the Allah's nur which is nure kul but you have not understood this line in the ginan that nure juz will be absorbed in nure kul when we'll die and the person can also be absorbed in his life only by doing ibadat and with the power of his isme azam but he;ll not be Allah or God as Mansoorulhaq said that he is Allah if he's Allah then Then there is no use of Imam in this world I am trying to tell you that A man can be absorbed in the nure kul in his life but he will not express it infront of other ismailies Becasue for that Imam has not told them and also they can not express as they have no words to tell But imam is the real God. Ok and kmaherali plz dont misunderstand me.

The Pir says that he has attained and NOT he will attain.

The difference between a momin and the Imam is that the momin needs Ibaadat for the elevation of his soul. The Imam is always at least at Haqiqati level. He does not need Ibaadat. He guides others to Haqiqati level. In this respect His presence will always be needed. When a momin becomes Haqiqati through Ibaadat, he may not neet the Imam but the rest of us need him, therefore his presence is required always.

Ordinary mortals like myself should not express this experience as per Imam's Farman, but the Pir can because he is the Guide and that is his role and the Jamat has faith in the authority of the PIR.

from_Origin · Post by **from_Origin** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:05 pm

Aly_shallwani wrote: The difference between a momin and the Imam is that the momin needs Ibaadat for the elevation of his soul. The Imam is always at least at Haqiqati level. He does not need Ibaadat. He guides others to Haqiqati level. In this respect His presence will always be needed. When a momin becomes Haqiqati through Ibaadat, he may not neet the Imam but the rest of us need him, therefore his presence is required always.

Can you explain why Imam is at Haqiqati level and not at the Highest level, being Marifat or Fana-fi-Allah -- "He who is above all else?"

And can you explain why a "momin," who's reached Haqiqati level, may not "need" the Imam Who's "Above all else?"

Thanks

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:20 pm

from_Origin wrote: Can you explain why Imam is at Haqiqati level and not at the Highest level, being Marifat or Fana-fi-Allah -- "He who is above all else?"

And can you explain why a "momin," who's reached Haqiqati level, may not "need" the Imam Who's "Above all else?"

Thanks

Yes I said AT LEAST at Haqiqati level to allow for the ambiguity because of his dual role as Shah and Peer. Therefore Haqiqati level is the minimum level of his existence and offcourse he could also be "He who is above all else" at the highest.

When a momin reaches the Haqiqati level he is FREE and in this sense is not bound by the laws of Ibaadat that others are. For example Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah advised Bhagat Kara Rooda to stop Ibaadat. The Bhagat was reluctant and Mowla told him "Do you want to remain a slave?". In this sense the relationship is not of the need for guidance but rather it is of love.

It also explains how Ismailis in Iran were able to maintain their traditions without contact with the Imam.

from_Origin · Post by **from_Origin** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:21 pm

kmaherali wrote:
Yes I said AT LEAST at Haqiqati level to allow for the ambiguity because of his dual role as Shah and Peer. Therefore Haqiqati level is the minimum level of his existence and offcourse he could also be "He who is above all else" at the highest.

When a momin reaches the Haqiqati level he is FREE and in this sense is not bound by the laws of Ibaadat that others are. For example Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah advised Bhagat Kara Rooda to stop Ibaadat. The Bhagat was reluctant and Mowla told him "Do you want to remain a slave?". In this sense the relationship is not of the need for guidance but rather it is of love.

It also explains how Ismailis in Iran were able to maintain their traditions without contact with the Imam.

Thanks for the clarification KMaherali. I wonder then what happened to our Pirs once they reached Haqiqati level? At one time some of the Pirs meditated for 16+ hours each day. Did they stop their Ibadat once reaching Haqiqati level?

Pondering of the essence of questions raised in this forum, the following are my personal thoughts.

Taking Mansoor Al-Hallaj as an example, he stated "I am The Truth." If the only Absolute Truth is Allah, and Al-Hallaj became the Truth, then he could have only "dissolved" or merged into Allah. And if we believe in the Unification of Allah, then Al-Hallaj could no longer be called Al-Hallaj (looking beyond his physical body), but could only be referred to as Allah since a drop of water "dissolving" or merging into the ocean can no longer be discerned or called a "drop" of water. Physically it is impossible to point to a "drop" of water in the ocean and label it a drop since it no longer has physical boundries.

Now, as for the discussion about when a soul (or ruh) of a person reaches Haqiqati level, where it is not bound by Ibadat, then what is the use of the Imam. Allah's Nur, in Its Unification, cannot be a slave to Itself. It can only relate to Itself with perfect Love. The concept of need or dependence is no longer applied at this Highest spiritual Love. So once a soul reaches the Highest spiritual level, the idea of "that soul" "needing" or "not needing" the Imam is no longer applied. Because if it did, then that is the material level, the world of duality. But once the soul is merged into the Divine, there is no "this soul", therefore there is no such thing as "needing" the Imam or "use" of Imam. And if this is fairly correct (as this is only my hypothesis), then Imam's presence spiritually will always be present Universally, but additionally, in this physical world will always take place. In this matter, there is always the "need" for one Imam at every moment.

Anybody?

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:46 pm

hmm.. well in my opinion we are ALL haqiqati momins. The imam adresses
us in each of his firmans by saying " My Beloved Spiritual Children" hence
we are haqiqati allready we just have to realize it. Once we become
one with the Divine, I still tink we will ALWAYS need the imam physically
and spiritually because without the Imam on this earth everything
would perish. Think about it who would guide mankind? Even today,
MHI guides every person on this earth. Whether through us, or through
firmans, or through speeches, or discussions with governments etc etc
the use of the imam on this earth is very vital. Yes, when we merge
and become one with Allah then we don't need his guidance physically
because spiritually his noor will indicate to us where to turn, all of our questions will be answered in bandagi. Anyone???

-----------------

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:24 pm

from_Origin wrote:
Thanks for the clarification KMaherali. I wonder then what happened to our Pirs once they reached Haqiqati level? At one time some of the Pirs meditated for 16+ hours each day. Did they stop their Ibadat once reaching Haqiqati level?

YAM "from_Origin"

In my opinion the highest goal of the laws of Ibaadat is FARMAN BARDARI. Being farmanbardari is being in the MODE of Ibaadat. In the case of Bhagat Kara Rooda, I think MSM relieved him from the discipline of Baitul Khayal through BOL. If one takes BOL then he/she is bound by this law until the Imam relieves him/her. For a Haqiqati Momin( in the true sense) FarmanBardari or Ibaadat is spontaneous. All his actions are pure and if he still decides to serve the Imam, it is out of love, not as a duty. He is still free to seek more knowledge or contemplate on the marvels and variety of creation as an enjoyable activity.

In the case of Pirs, they are not bound by the laws of Ibaadat. They are Haqiqati already. However they may choose to live according to the laws of Ibaadat, not because they need it for their elevation but to show others the path. Best example is the life of Holy Prophet Muhammad. Pir Sadardin was in a state of meditation or contemplation for 16 hours per day, not because he was required to do so but because he enjoyed it and the circumstances required that he live in that mode. Pir Satgur Nur was in a meditative state for days! Surely these were not the laws of Ibaadat.

The other aspect about the Pirs is that their standards are much higher than ordinary mortals like myself. Pir Sadardin was prevented from the experience of Deedar for 6 months and 6 days because he thought Pir Hassan Kabirdin as a minor who could not travel along with him for Zaheri Deedar with the Imam.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:56 am

I am a little afraid of responding here because there is so much i want to say in regards to the topic but am having problems trying to articulate it...and i don't want to sound/read haphazard.

I didn't notice the farman of MSMS(SA) from KIM(i believe but i could be wrong) where he states that he's the ocean and we're rivers merging into him...ie..we become the ocean..we merge into the ocean....(mabe it's there but i didn't read it )

if we refer to the Guru Granth Sahib in the other topic we find that it expresses the same concept of Anal Haq to an extent as we do.

I believe we don't exist..the only thing that exists is the noor of allah..we are all an illusion...

I read the following somewhere and have it my notes..

"Throughout Ismaili theosophy this insistence on the nothingness of created things and beings is emphasized again and again. Everything is ultimately God and nothing but God. Here is an Ismaili address or sermon, evidently preached by one of the Imams. ( i don't know which imam but am looking for the source)

"The Prophet of God has said: 'He who knows his own soul knows God', and he has also said 'You shall know God through God himself'. By this he means that you are not you; he alone is you and it is through him that you exist. 'He does not unite with you or you with him'; he does not become separate from you or you from him': by these words he does not mean to affirm your existence or to say that you have such-and-such properties; quite the contrary. He means that you have never existed and never will exist except through your soul; never by your own person, which is nothing. Therefore you cannot be either annihilated or caused to exist; if you know this, you know God ... ."

my apologies if i seem to stray from the topic.

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:04 am

We are not ALL haquiqati momins.... Ismailis alone are haqiqati momins. Man can NEVER EVER BE GOD. HE CAN BECOME ONE WITH GOD BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU GOD. There is a difference between noor and soul. Mowlana sultan muhammad sha has explained this well. He says when you see a fire, and you see the sparks flying out of them... he says I am like the fire which is my Noor and you are like the sparks which would be our Souls. At any level which you are at spiritually, you will never come close to Allah. Even if you feel that you are there you are not becuase He (Allah) is above that. The human mind can not comprehend this fact. He (Allah) is out of bounds to time, space, or for that matter to any constraint. If you think about time, Allah is above time, if you think above space Allah is above space, if you think about this universe Allah is above this universe. There you have it. He is above you.... how can the soul which he created ever be at parellel with him? It would not make scence. Then this would be shirk. Becuase you can only have one God... Allah. And were you as an individual be able to reach to the status of God then it would ruin the belif of baiscally every Muslim on the face of this Earth. So there is no way.... not even in a million for that matter billion or even for that matter trillion or even for that matter for all of eternity no matter how much ibadat you do, you will never be able to reach anywhere near what Allahs power is. Think about it, when the Jews bothered Moses that they wanted to see Allah and they all passed away by seeing the thunderbolt...remember what Mowlana Aly said, he said "What Moses and his followers saw at Sinai, was just 1/300th of my light." Imagine the intensity, that even at Sinai the Holy Prophet of God, Moses (A.S) passed out.

kjindani · Post by **kjindani** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:50 am

Ya Ali Madad, I just joined this forum, I have a related question in my mind..... before that some comments on previous message. There can only 1 God. Hmmmm.... i see a problem here... at first we say God is beyond comprehension, above space and time... and them we attach physical concept of counting with him.... (I am calling him, him due to limitation of language we speak.) - Plain logic does'nt fit in when we discuss the creator. I read people speaking about human soul and it being different from God's soul (or Nur). Obviously the difference is not one of the kind we observe with our senses like black/white or light/heavy, big/small. - Then what is the nature of this difference. Many philosophers have discussed this theme since the start of time.... How something physical like earth, planets, humans can come in being from something spiritual in nature.... Our Dai's also gave theories of creation. Although I have read much about this stuff but I am still clueles.. I think we should first  ponder upon the amazing fact of creation, then only we will be in a position to fruitfully discuss abstract concepts like Nur, Soul....My opinion is that perhaps these greatest question facing humans is "Why are we here ?" Regards KJ

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:20 pm

Dear Amin,

I recall a farman of Imam SMS which says once the river merges with
the ocean it no longer remains the river but the ocean. It is like us,
human beings we are a drop of water in the ocean (Allah) once we
elevate ourselves through Ibadat, and become ONE with Allah, you no longer believe you are in this material world. Worldly things like
TV, computer etc etc no longer become part of your daily life. You merge
into that ocean (Allah) and become fana, or return to the orginal residence (asaal makan). Sure we still remain human until our
physical body leaves this world, but why can't a human being become God? If Imam SMS says we can become that of Mansoor and Pir Shams,
Pir Sadardin, who became one with Allah, then absolutely we can as well.
So to you Amin, who is Allah? Does he have physical features, does he
live on this earth, dosen't His Noor enable us to speak, hear, talk etc etc?
If a human being was not Allah then why did Mansoor say he was? What you are saying is right in some ways but we must strive to become like them. Imam has numerously said we are an esoteric faith and Imam SMS
has said we must constanly strive to see the spirit, then why is not possible. Rarely, few people become one with Allah like Rumi, Nasir Khussraw etc etc but it is possible, maybe not in this life but the lives here after.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:24 pm

and amin ya saying trillion people will not even become close to Allah
then ya really need to study back because Mansoor, Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin just to name a few all became one with Allah. You say Allah is beyond everything yes he is. "he who is above all else" is the Essence
Imam is not essence. Imam is a physical manifestation of the Noor of Allah. I think from there it shall be very easy to make conclusions on
where Allah is at all times as we lucky Ismailies can't even recognize that
I shall shutup here

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:03 am

Go back and read the fourm..... i said even if you tried for trillions of years you could NEVER BECOME GOD..... I DIDNT SAY ONE WITH GOD

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:12 am

YAM Amin,

I have a question for you

Can you become amin?

I think you are right man cannot become God.

Shams

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:21 pm

At any level which you are at spiritually, you will never come close to Allah

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:22 pm

maybe ya need to think before u write

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:37 pm

Understand what i am trying to say here... i mean that at what ever spitrual level you are .... you will be no where near Allah... yes you will have become one with Him at a point but you will not be him. So what i am saying is that no matter how much you are elevated, you will not come anywhere near to the power that Allah has..... this is what I am trying to say

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:46 pm

what do u define Allah as?
have u seen his power?

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Tue Aug 24, 2004 6:25 pm

YAM Amin,

the question I was asking you,

Can you become Amin?

and why?

Anyone else who cares to answer, would be appreciated.

YAM

Shams

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:54 pm

how can Amin be Amin if the Imam lives inside Amin. Amin does not even exist it is only his soul that does, one has to recognize it first which in my
interp is the meaning of life, to be noor.

Ya Aly Madat,

from_Origin · Post by **from_Origin** » Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:38 pm

shamsu wrote:YAM Amin,

the question I was asking you,

Can you become Amin?

and why?

Anyone else who cares to answer, would be appreciated.

YAM

Shams

Shams, not sure if I'm picking up your questioning accurately, but here's my 2 bits:

Amin cannot "become" Amin as he is already Amin. It is the knowledge, or awareness, that he is Amin that is missing. In other words, ignorance is what is keeping Amin separated from his true self.

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:44 pm

Yes it is true, I am not my true self and nobody is until they go into Bandgi. Until that I agree I dont know who I am. But hopefully, I will one day by the grace of Allah be able to understand who I am.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:25 pm

So,

Amin cannot become Amin.

Amin cannot become one with Amin

All Amin can do is be Amin.

I hope I am getting through.

Shams

faisall667 · Post by **faisall667** » Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:58 pm

Hi,
I was reading the Ginan meaning of BHAAI-O BHARAME NA BHULEEYE and came across this verse, but I always thought that God was still attainable even though we are on this material world.

ejee kullnu(n) maan kartaa, rakhe dhartaa abhev
kaayaa kalevar kaarmee, deheethee allago chhe dev
bhaai-o....................................................9

abhev - insult
kalevar - body
kaarmee - difficult, false (kaarmu - beautiful in appearance)

One maintains the honour of the family(hypocritically) lest he is insulted by them. The material body is false and the Lord is remote from it(He is not attainable through it).

Faisal

P.S correct me if I have interpreted the meaning in a wrong way

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:43 pm

faisall667 wrote:Hi,
I was reading the Ginan meaning of BHAAI-O BHARAME NA BHULEEYE and came across this verse, but I always thought that God was still attainable even though we are on this material world.

ejee kullnu(n) maan kartaa, rakhe dhartaa abhev
kaayaa kalevar kaarmee, deheethee allago chhe dev
bhaai-o....................................................9

abhev - insult
kalevar - body
kaarmee - difficult, false (kaarmu - beautiful in appearance)

One maintains the honour of the family(hypocritically) lest he is insulted by them. The material body is false and the Lord is remote from it(He is not attainable through it).

Faisal

P.S correct me if I have interpreted the meaning in a wrong way

I think the theme of the Ginan is the relationship and comparison between body and the soul. In the later verses the pir says that body goes beneath the grass whereas soul's destiny is the heavens.

Peer is telling us not to focus on body and it's attachments but to care for the soul which is eternal within it.

faisall667 · Post by **faisall667** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 8:12 pm

I was reading the Ginan meanings and came across BUJ NIRANJAN. Read its meaning and it answers the question very well. It can be found in the Ginan section.

Faisal

www.ismaili.net

can humans BE God?

Re: can humans BE God?

A man can never ever become God

Re: can humans BE God?

Re: can humans BE God?

Re: can humans BE God?

Re: can humans BE God?

Re: can humans BE God?

Re: can humans BE God?

Re: can humans BE God?

River to the ocean

Become

Amin

Re: Amin

Amin