Français  |  Mission  |  About us  |  Disclaimer  |  Contact  |  What's new  |  FAQ  |  Search  | 

Welcome to The Heritage Web Site

-->
MY HERITAGE
New Heritage
Main Page
New Account
Set as Homepage
My Account
Logout
GOLDEN JUBILEE
Statistics
DIDARS
COMMUNICATE
Forums
Guestbook
Members List
Recommend Us
NEWS
Timelines
Ismaili History
Today in History
LEARN
Library
Youth's Corner
Ginans
FAIR
Gallery
Photo Album
Others


www.ismaili.net :: View topic - Daet Kalingo and Dajjal
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  ProfileProfile   
Login to check your private messagesLogin to check your private messages

Daet Kalingo and Dajjal
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Doctrines
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:35 pm    Post subject: Daet Kalingo and Dajjal Reply with quote

In Islamic books it is written that at the end time of world demon will come namley Dajjal. There are many hadiths about it.In Ginans also we found that demon will come who is Daet Kalingo. From many aspects it seems that Daet Kalingo and Dajjal are same but one big difference is that it is in Ginans that Daet Kalingo will be killed by Naklanki avtaar [Imam] but Dajjal would be killed byJesus? what do you think ????
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
202=rub



Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deat Kalingo and Dajjal are two concepts, which should not be interpreted literally when they are used in the Ginans and Hadiths. In other words these two words have an allegorical meaning behind them, I say allegorical meaning because the word Dajjal was used by the Prophet and Quran 1400 yrs ago to represent something which would happen a long, long time from the Prophets time, so when someone had asked the prophet when or how the world was going to end, the Prophet, in my opinion had to give such an answer to where, it would hold true till this very present day. So inferring, further one can say this concept is not for an ordinary mind to understand, which is my opinion.

In addition, the similar approach to the concept of Deat Kalingo must be applied because it was used by the Pir(s) 700 to 500 yrs ago, to emphasize something which is going to happen in distant future. Although if you contrast the Hadiths and the Quran with the Ginans about the subject matter that we are dealing with, the Ginans give a better picture in allegorical terms as to what exactly is going to happen. Furthermore, account of Deat Kalingo is not just in one Ginan or stated by one Pir. On the contrary a full detail account can be summed up by reading all the Ginans by different Pir(s) who state on the subject matter, so much so, that the Pirs write the precise year, day, where the phenomena is going to occure, what is going to be the state of the whole world at the time and what Imam is going to be present and much more....

One more thing I would like to say is that Deat Kalingo is not a Person, it is a Plague. A plague which is anti-religion. I do not want to state what that plague is explicitly here but if you wish to know read the book called The Masters of Deceit by Hoover.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Abu Ali missionary Daet Kalingo means comunism and Surja Rani means momin. They are not 1 person

But if daet or dajjal is not one peson Prophet or Pir can use plural term as they want to make people of that time understand about future in easy way not to confuse.

In Quran,Ginans and Hadiths there are many things like what will happen in future. But how we know which have allegorical meaning and which have not and how we can interpret the correct batini meanings from Ginans?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
202=rub



Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Question which you have stated, at least from what I make of it is that how does one know what things should be taken as an allegorical or as an esoteric perspective from Islamic and Ismaili doctrines? And also why the Prophet(s) and the Pir(s) just don't explicitly explain what is going to happen rather then say it in a veiled manner?

To kill two birds with one stone, I think in my opinion not everyone is entitled to understand the esoteric or allegorical meaning stated in the Quran, Hadiths, Farmans, and Ginans. I say this because only some people are blessed to have such a heart or brain to understand such overwhelming matters. Let me state a good example as to where I am getting at by stating a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH):

One day the Prophet was sitting with some of his companions, when a guy came in his presence and asked a question to him by saying " O Prophet of God can you explain to me as to why there are stars in the sky" and in replying to the man the Prophet said to him "To decorate heaven" and the guy departed. Sometimes, after that another guy came in the presence of the Prophe, while the Prophet was in the company of his companions and the guy requested the Prophet by asking him "O Prophet of God can you tell me why there are stars in the sky to this man in reply the prophet explained to him the astronomical and natural phenomena's as to why there are stars in the sky. When the companions came to know the two different answers for the same question, they asked the Prophet as to why he gave two different accounts to the same question? He told his companions that the first guy who had asked him the question only had the capacity of understanding that much, as to what he had told him, and if he had said anymore then that, the guy would have disbelieved in him. While on the other hand, the Prophet tells to his companions that the second guy who had asked him the question was a learned man in the sciences of physics and astronomy, and he had the capacity of understanding as much as to what he had explained to him without the guy having any doubts in him about the subject matter.

In my understanding if you contemplate on this Hadith you will gain a lot as to what things are to be taken allegorically or literally. In addition, one has to keep in mind trying to understand the esoteric meanings of the Quran, Hadiths, Farmans, and Ginans that it is a gradual process and from my understanding one can not understand such religious matters stated by God, Imam, or the Pir(s), or Prophet(s), just instantaneously when he reads or hears about them. One has to undergo a process just like a baby who has come into this world, meaning before that baby learns and gets the strength to walk he has to learn to crawl first and as time goes on naturally the baby adapts to his predestined capabilities.

Lastly some of my thoughts about why the Pir(s) had to write things allegorical in the Ginans about Deat Kalingo is because 700 to 500 yrs ago no one would have believed that there was, a such thing, as communism in the world at that time. I mean think about if you were back in time 500 to 700 yrs and told someone that in the future people will travel in a thing called an airplane which travels through the sky, inevitably they would think you were insane. YAM
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:34 am    Post subject: Allegorical nature of Ginanic Ideas. Reply with quote

First of all we must all be careful when we make references to Islamic books. Not all lslamic literature is really in accordance with our understanding of faith. When we are exposed to information from other sources, especially about matters pertaining to faith, we have to evaluate that knowledge against the authoritative statements made by the Pir. If that information accords with the Pir, then we can accept it otherwise we should discard it. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in his memoirs says: "There is a fundamental difference between the Jewish idea of creation and that of Islam. The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought." If creation is constant and perpetual, how can there be an end?

Mowlana HazarImam has made it quite clear that the Ginans should be a tradition that has to be held from generation to generation and from wherever the murids came. It means that the message is universal and is not confined to a particular time or location. If that is the case, we have to interprete Ginans in a manner that they are applicable at all times. Therefore as explained well by 202=rub, the message of the Ginans have to be interpreted in an allegorical sense unless they deal with obvious matters such as guidance and wisdom. In particular, the notion of Kalingo can be interpreted at a personal level or at a cosmic level. My understanding of this concept is that it conveys a sense of resistance or opposition to faith. It can be interpreted as a personal entity(eg., Pharoah) or a phenomenon(eg, Communism). We cannot generalise these interpretations. They have to be dealt with according to contexts.

As explained well by 202=rub through the allusion of the hadith of the Prophet, the Pir explains issues according to the capacity of the audience. It is precisely because of this that some of the ideas have to be expressed in an allegorical manner. We can extend this insight into more mundane issues such as understanding Imam's various statements and guidance and also His different approaches in different circumstances. Sometimes guidance is given to us which seems unreasonable to our limited minds. It is only after many years of reflection that we realise the wisdom behind it. It is only those who have had the courage and faith to heed them have been saved. The key is to have the courage to accept and obey the Firmans even though they may seem unreasonable at the time realising that the Pir's knowledge and wisdom is infinitely more than ours. That is the reason that the path becomes easier when you have the Murshid.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
202=rub



Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion Dat Kalingo is Communism. I say this because communism is a type of sovereignty which leaves no room for believe in god. Here are some examples from the crafters of the theory: First according to Karl Marx, who is known as the father of communism writes "religion is an opium for the people" by stating this he completed disbelieved in God. Moreover, Lenin who was the first president of communist USSR the Bolsheviks party, states in his voluminous works that "God does not exists. So why worship Him". Joseph Stalin, an atheist, who was the successor of Lenin brought Communism to power and He, himself in his autobiography boosts about himself as begin divinely ordain as Godhead on this earth. If one studies the early history of Communism you would find how the world barely safeguarded its self from such a theory, which very well might have spread throughout the world had it not been for a few mistakes of the Russian Communist Leaders. All refrences can be found in the book writen by President Hoover called the Masters of Deceit.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:17 pm    Post subject: The Concept of Kalinga Reply with quote

220-rub, your interpretation of Kalinga as communism is valid. However, there can be other interpretations. If you consider Ginan, "gurnarthee bhulaa taa(n)su, vaad na keejejee" that expains the nature of the "daint", it will be obvious that kalingo refers to illusion created by excessive materialism and consumerism. It seems to me that this force is always there. It is by overcoming it that the individual souls are strengthened and the respective societies revived.

For the sake of convenience I will post the entire Ginan as under.

GURNARTHEE BHULAA TAASU(N) VAAD NA KEEJEJEE PEER SHAMS

ejee gurnarthee bhulaa taa(n)su, vaad na keejejee
te avarko jeev ddolaavejee...................................1

Do not argue with the ones who have strayed away from the Guide and the Master("Gurnar"). They shake the souls of others(with doubt).


ejee gurnarthee bhulaa te to mahaa paapee kaheeyejee
gur veenaa jeevddo na chhuttejee.............................2

The ones who have strayed away from the Guide and the Master, are the greatest sinners. Without the Guide, the soul does not get salvation.


ejee aradh aasann dait puraveene betthaajee
sheshttee saghallee namaavejee...............................3

The devil is established being seated in half a posture(otherside of the throne), and forces the entire creation to bow(to him).


ejee chaalees laakh dait kaalee(n)gaanaa chelaajee
neet neet kalaa jagaayejee...................................4

There are forty lakh(four million) disciples of the evil demon. They assert their strength every day.


ejee velu mataree dait an upaavshejee
ananaa parab chalaavshejee..................................5

By reciting a word over a type of creeper, the evil demon will create food. He will operate free supply lines of this food.(He will distribute this food in an abundant manner)


ejee paannee mataree ne dait ghrat upaavshejee
ghrat naa parab chalaavshejee................................6

By reciting a word over water the evil demon will create ghee. He will operate free supply lines of this ghee. (He will make this ghee available abundantly).


ejee gaaro matareene dait golla upaavshejee
tyaa(n) gollanaa parab chalaavshejee.........................7

By reciting a word over mud the evil demon will create molasses. There he will distribute this molasses in an abundunt manner.


ejee paan mataree ne dait popatt paddhaavshejee
tene kaalee(n)gaanu(n) naam bhannaavshejee...................8

By reciting a word over a type of leaf the evil demon will cause it to recite like a parrot. He will teach it the name(message) of the devil. [phenomena of records-pop music]


ejee kaatthnaa ghoddaane dait khaann khavraavshejee
evaa chen chalaavshejee......................................9

The evil demon will feed the beasts(horses) of the neighbourhood with sugar. Such will be the wonders performed by him.


ejee muaa maannas dait kaalee(n)go jeevaaddshejee
te kal maa(n)he maai baap dekhaaddshejee....................10

The evil demon will bring to life dead men. In this age he will reveal the mother and father.


ejee meghaa ddamar dait chhatr ddhallaayshejee
ttaaddhaa ttaddhaa vaahaa varsaavshejee.....................11

The evil demon will create shelters from rain and thunderstorms. He will feel the atmosphere with cold air.


ejee traa(m)beeye rottee dait kaalee(n)go vechaavshejee
sonaa more saaheb raajo karshejee...........................12

The evil demon will trade food for copper. My kingly Lord will convert it into a gold coin.


ejee veekhaddee vellaa maa(n)he deel tthor na raheshejee
saamee raajo raakhshe tenee raheshejee......................13

In this difficult period the hearts will not remain steady. Only the ones under the protection of the Lord will remain steady.


ejee geenaan mahaaras peer shamsh boleeyaa jee
evaa evaa chen chalaavshejee................................14

This hymn which is has great nector(water of life) is recited by Peer Shams. Such will be the wonders and plays performed by the evil demons(to lure you away from the Path).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
202=rub



Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kmeharali you are quite possibly right that there can be other meanings associated with Dait(n) but in my opinion, you and I are along the same line because communist theory when taken, all in all, is nothing more then excessive materialism. Communism = Materialism. YAM

If you can find other translated Ginans can you please let me Know?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

202=rub wrote:
Kmeharali you are quite possibly right that there can be other meanings associated with Dait(n) but in my opinion, you and I are along the same line because communist theory when taken, all in all, is nothing more then excessive materialism. Communism = Materialism. YAM

If you can find other translated Ginans can you please let me Know?


Well you can be a materialist without being a communist. The two are not equal. I would say that communism is a facet of materialism. But that is besides the point.

Yes there are a lot of translations in the Ginans section of this site. Just click the link to the Ginans on the left of this page.


YAM
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Abu Ali missionary dajjal and daet kalingo are same According to Abu Ali missionary Daet will become powerful due to science and will perform miracles.There would be 76 lakh people in his army.In future china will become center of science and education.Ever country will fear from china including U.S.A. China will progress and and will become much advanced. Daet will be the ruler of china. He will make ghee from water or he will make artificial ghee.He will make brown sugar from mud and will make a paper which can speak like a parrot.There will be war betwenn daet and ImamThere will be lot of noise and announcement and declaration of war will be made in three worlds [sky,earth,pataal]
At that time all muslims will believe Imam as their Imam and khalifa.There would be darkness in world. Very few people will be momins other will be kafirs.Before this great war there will bne many other wars in this world.
According to Abu Ali missionary he think that in future muslims and communist will be united and they togethrt will fight against christians and jewsIn starting chistians and jews will win but later they will be defeated.
Than there will be only 2 powers in this world Islam and communism.
Than Imam will become leader of all muslims. It is in ginans that there will be pawan rath ghoray i.e aeroplane and Imam will have 36 kinds of weapons.
Angels and spirits will praise Imam. They will also fight battle.Detail is in Annant Akhado about this.In battle of Badar also there were 313 momins but God sent 3000 angels to help muslims.The momins who are not ismailis saint and good people of other religion like hinduism,christanity will realize that Imam is naklank avtaar and there would be raaj of momins.This would be like world war.Its in ginan that Imam will walk for 6 lakh miles in one day.Daet will make arguments to his wife Surja Rani. Abu Ali said that Surja rani in ginan means true momins he will say 75% of world is in my control.Momins will say if you want salvation you have to worship lord and you are doing war with lord?Daet will say I can bring back life to one who is dead I have unlimmited army.Rani will say although you have unlimmited army but you will be defeated.


Last edited by star_munir on Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

continue.....
Most of the people in daet's army will die due to natural disasters like flood,earthquake,storm etc.
In 1921 president of Russia said in his speech that within 20 years there will be no religion in Russia such a plan was made by him but inspite of his best efforts he was not succesful in doing so.In 1969 a report was published about religion in Russia and there were many muslims,christians etc.There are many ismailis in Russia.In that report in chapter of Islam,ismailism is also mention and about Aga Khan, dasond etc is written in this report. China will not make a make mistake like that of Russia. Daet will ask Surja Rani you live in my home,eat my food and than praises your Imam.It means he will ask momins that you live in communist country in my country and are following religion.
Rani will reply listen I am telling you this in every joog but you have always cheated. After Karta,Treta and Duapar jug this is last Kaljug in this infidels and enemy of religion will be killed.
Daet will than say Rani what are you saying you live in my home and praises your Imam why??
Rani will say Believe me Lord will ask for your every action.
Than there will be war.Ishwar and Bramha [Shah Pir ,Imam and Pir of that time] will come in China and Imam will win the battle and than there will be Ratan jug and momins will be happy and will enjoy.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From Hadiths we Know that demon namely Dajjal will come. The problem with hadiths is that it is not authentic source. There may be false hood in it.

According to Hadiths dajjal will come and he will claim that he is god.His one eye would be defective. Between his two eyes , there would be word kafir in Arabic language and every muslim would be able to read it.
Face color of dajjal is white,bright eyes and hairs are like green branches of tree. His eyse are like glasses.
His face is like kafir aza bin katan [now face of communist of ussr or china can not be like that of kafir of Arabia] Tamimdari was chirstain and accepted Islam and said to Prohphet Muhammad [PBUH] that he had seen dajjal in an island ...... Dajjal is not free he is in world but when he will free he will come again and will capture the whole world in 40 days except Mecca and Madina where he can not enter despite of many efforts.Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] saw him in mairaj also and he will come from river of shaam [syria].According to some hadiths from River of Yemen ans according to some hadiths from east and accroding to some hadiths Kharasan.
He will kill people and make them alive. With his order earth will take out treasures and wealth. 70,000 Jews of yahodwa will be with him [if he will be communist why jews will support him] Than Frm Dimashq,Jesus will come in yellow dress and will kill him

In Ginan Budh Avtar Pir says

464. Tchinab Nagri , in the East
There lives the famous Kalingo


465. This Dayt Kalingo will be extremely strong
His army will be unlimited


466. His army will be limitless
His soldiers will be powerful


467. From China will come the Kalingo
He will come to fight in Jampudip


468. The Kalingo will have 4 million followers
They will make a lot of trouble


469. By concentration, he will go to the skies
He will feed iron horses with sugar


470. He will show the deceased mothers and fathers
He will reverse the current of the river


471. He will make mountains of food move forward
He will change water into butter


472. The Kalingo will accomplish such miracles
And there, the whole world will be lost


473. Only My followers will not be lost
Those who will have recognized the Master of Truth.


474. When the demon Kalingo will make such trouble
The Lord Narayanr will reveal Himself certainly .


According to Ginans Imam will kill according to hadith Jesus will.
Now the Question is Daet Kalingo and Dajjal are different or not?
If same than according to ismailism [Ginans and Farman] Jesus will come in this world again or not???


Last edited by star_munir on Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
202=rub



Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to Ginans Imam will kill according to hadith Jesus will.
Now the Question is Daet Kalingo and Dajjal are different or not?
If same than according to ismailism [Ginans and Farman] Jesus will come in this world again or not???


Well, once again I would like to emphasize that both the Prophet and Pir in my opinion are not talking about the subject matter in literal sense. But in regards to your inquiry if Dajjal and DaitN Kalingo are same ? and if the Imam or Jesus will come into the world to deal with DaitN?
I dont know what I can accurately say, but if we want to contrast the concept of Dajjal and DaitN, I think we should ask ourselves as to what kind of people the prophet was dealing with during his time and similarly with the Pir. In other words what was the language that the people were speaking at the time of the Prophet and the Pir ( Arabic Vs Gujrati), what was the religious demography in the area of the Prophet and the Pir (mainly Christian and Jews Vs Hindu), what was time difference of the Prophets doctrine(Hadith) and the Pir(s)'s (Ginan), perhaps 800 to 900 yrs. In addition we need to ask did the people(Hindus) were the Pir was preaching have any idea as to who Jesus was or any Christian believes that existed in the area about Jesus being the Messiah like the people in the prophets area.
YAM
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
shirazkali



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Very nice discussion. since you guies have gone that far.

i just wanted to add one more thing that

"During that time(Kalingo's time), imam name will be Imam Qassim Shah."

imam name has been given in the Anant Akhado, which is listed in part 29

Aashaajee Khaddag kudratee apurav chhaaje
Nar Kaasam Shah vaae-jee
paanch nadee rann khetr mulastaan rache-she
tyan daeent kaaleengaa-ne ghhaae-she....Haree anant...29

Oh Lord The rare natural sword will be in use
at the behest of Imam Kasim Shah
The battlefield will be at Multaan(symbol of mind or soul) where five rivers(sense perceptions) meet
There he will sweep the satanic demon(lower self)
Haree You are eternal...
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Send email
202=rub



Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when was Anant Akhado composed? and who was the Imam of that time ?

Are there any other Ginans dealing with DaitN?.....please let me know?
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2004 1:03 pm    Post subject: Kalingo at Personal Level. Reply with quote

When trying to give literal interpretation at issues that are meant to be interpreted allegorically, we find ourselves into a lot of problems. First of all the sources are problematic and secondly in our tradition these issues about a Messiah who will liberate us from the perceived 'Daint' become less important as we have an ever present Guide. So there is a conflict with our doctrine. Time will only prove whether the event will actually take place at the time of Qasim Shah. It does not look like it is going to happen during our lifetime!

In my opinion the only plausible interpretation of the 'daint' is at a personal level. The 'daint' to me is our 'Nafs' and it is the greatest victory when we conquer it(Jihad al Kabir). By intervention of the Kayam Swami(Lord of Resurrection), it is meant His Deedar. When a momin is granted this gift all his sins and lower tendencies are wiped out and he/she is resurrected spiritually. I have tried to give that interpretation in verse 29 of Anant Akhaado which has been quoted in an earlier post by Shirazkali. This granth was composed during the time of Imam Islam Shah. Imam Qasim shah was his father.

I agree with 220=rub that when trying to give an allegorical interpretation, we have to understand the cultural, historical, geographical and religious orientation of the context.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kmaherali I dont agree with you when you say In my opinion the only plausible interpretation of the 'daint' is at a personal level. The 'daint' to me is our 'Nafs' and it is the greatest victory when we conquer it(Jihad al Kabir). By intervention of the Kayam Swami(Lord of Resurrection), it is meant His Deedar. When a momin is granted this gift all his sins and lower tendencies are wiped out and he/she is resurrected spiritually.


Because if this was true meaning, than what was need to make it like story or event that will happen in the end time of world? What was need that daint will appear from that particular place at the time of Imam Qasim Shah. Why the name of place as well as name of Imam is mention plus army of daint etc.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:15 am    Post subject: Personal Resurrection Reply with quote

First of all, there is nothing wrong about a disagreement. There is diversity of thought in our tradition, which I consider a strength. However that diversity must be based on reason and should not contradict our principles. In this case I believe there is a fundamental contradiction. As I mentioned in my earlier post, creation according to Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah is continuous. In that respect there cannot be an end and all notions about it considered in a literal sense in my opinion are nonsense. We believe that HazarImam is our guide and protector and is always present with us, so why think about a Kayam in future. Don't we have faith in Him. Of what good is it to know that there will be a Qayam at least one hundred years later! So what do we do? Sit and wait!

There are stories in all scriptures and they are not considered in a literal sense. They are allegorical and are meant to to relevant at all times. So Ginanic tradition which is meant to be a timeless tradition, has to be understood in a manner that is relevant at all times. In that respect, to consider the stories in the Ginans as allegorical is legitimate and in my opinion the only plausible way.

The translation of Anant Akhado that appears in this site is my translation. This particular verse I interpreted as a personal resurrection in the following manner.

Multan was an important place in a worldly manner at that time. In that sense it symbolises the Mind or Heart of the body.

Multan was a place where Pir Shamsh was actively engaged in spreading the Dawa. Imam Qasim Shah was the Imam at the time of his preaching. In that sense Multan had an association with Imam Qasim Shah. In my opinion, that's why his name has been mentioned. It could have been the name of any Imam and that would still serve the purpose.

The five rivers represent the five senses through which we perceive the world around us. The mind interpretes these sensory inputs and that is how we perceive reality. So if there has to be a major change, it has to happen in the mind. In my opinion that major change comes across through Deedar by the intervention of the Qayam(Hazar Imam).

The five rivers could also mean the five vices viz, lust, greed, anger, attraction to illusion and pride which are under the control of the mind. These represent the lower self(the nafs) which is also conquered through the Deedar.

I hope this clarifies things.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. Happy to know that translation of Anant Akhado in this site is by you.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:47 am    Post subject: Kalingo - Moman Chetamni Reply with quote

Here is another reference about the Kalingo from Granth "Moman Chetamni". In this case the Kalingo is the resistance to faith in the form of a person.

206) Eji Te farta farta gaya maha chian (china) ma
Tyan bodhiya Surja rani naar
Kamla kunwar teno sut kahiye
Diet kalingo teno bharthar Cheto.....

206. Once after going around different towns, he came to a place called Mahachin (China?) where he converted Rani Surja and her son Prince Kamla. Her husband was (unfortunately) Daint Kalingo.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
alinizar313



Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:34 pm    Post subject: Daeet Kalingo Reply with quote

I agreed with what Kmeherali told about the esoteric aspect of the incident of daeet Kalingo to be happened in future. We see some past and
future incident both in Ginans and firmans (see firman # 4,6,8,11,16,18
and 20). We don't know about future so we can't say about literal meaning
of future incident. But as far as past incident is concerned, most of the incident mentioned in firmans and ginans were not actually happened physically which shows that all these should be taken on personal level.
Sometimes knowledge is imparted in Packets so everyone can take it according to one's level of understanding and that is why we say that diversed thinking or pluralism is a strength.
I suggest everyone to read and try to interpret the above mentioned firmans and you will really astonish to see the richness and depth of the knowledge in those firmans. Inshallah in future, we will try to discuss the same.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Daeet Kalingo Reply with quote

alinizar313 wrote:
We see some past and
future incident both in Ginans and firmans (see firman # 4,6,8,11,16,18
and 20).


Which frimans are you referring to? Dates and places? I have some firmans in English translations. I would like to refer to them.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can you say that But as far as past incident is concerned, most of the incident mentioned in firmans and ginans were not actually happened physically.

1 Imam had predicted that a time will come when people will go to moon. At that time it was not possible to think so and it happened in reality in physically.{There is a Farman in which Imam said so]

2 Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said that empire [sultanat] of Sultan Abdul Hammed will be divided into many countries. [Imam not said it in Farman]

3 Mowlana Hazir Imam made salty water in the well into sweet water physically in Karachi. This is physical incident which seems impossible but yet happened so physical incident can took place.

4 Hazrat Ali said that there is no effect of fire on my friend and when Safan Ibn thal was set on fire there was no effect on him.

5 Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari who lost his eye sight became well after meeting Imam Mohammad Baqir according to prediction of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] reference Noorum Mubin

6 Khawaja Kamaluddin was seriously ill and Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah came in his dream and tell him to take a kathol found in mountains of India and he became well by this.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: Daeet Kalingo Reply with quote

alinizar313 wrote:
I agreed with what Kmeherali told about the esoteric aspect of the incident of daeet Kalingo to be happened in future. ..

We don't know about future so we can't say about literal meaning
of future incident. But as far as past incident is concerned, most of the incident mentioned in firmans and ginans were not actually happened physically which shows that all these should be taken on personal level.



I think you have misunderstood what I meant when I was making reference to allegorical interpretation. I need to clarify. I did not mean that all the events and stories have to be interpreted at a personal level. I only meant those that did not make literal sense or contradicted our beliefs. Clearly there are stories that allude to historical events that we believe did happen. Examples include Pir Hassan Kabirdeen's Zaheri Deedar and his composition of Anant Akhado, Pir Satgurnur's arrival at Patan and his miracles, Pir Shamsh's journeys and his miracles, etc.All of these did happen and they reveal a great deal about the cultural and religious background of the respective societies at that time. We also believe in some of the future predictions by our Pirs which have actually been vindicated today and would have seemed incomprehensible at the time of the predictions. For example, in the Ginan "Gur Nar Thee Bhulaa" that I posted earlier on this topic, there is mention of ghee being created out of water (artificial fats) and the propagation of music through record players. These are happening today.

There are however some events that can have both literal and allegorical significance. For example consider the following verse in the Ginan "Dhan Dhan Aajno":

eji unchaa unchaa parabat veesamee chhe gaatt jee tee-aa chaddee jo-u nur satgurnee vaatt jee....het no.........3

O momins, the mountains are high and the mountain passes are difficult. There I climb and wait for the True Guide and the bearer of the Noor. Have a gathering...

This verse can be interpreted literally to allude to the difficult journey that Peer Sadardeen underwent to attain Zaheri Deedar. It can also allegorically allude to the difficulties and obstacles on 'Siratal Mustaqueem' and the consequent attainment of His Batini Deedar.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
alinizar313



Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 8:45 am    Post subject: Daeet Kalingo Reply with quote

No comment at this stage. Just one firman "Jiyan joiye chhiye tiyan ruh dost ne joiye chhiye".
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
star_munir



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 1670

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I misunderstood you I agree with you
Back to top
View users profile Send private message Visit posters website
alinizar313



Joined: 12 Oct 2003
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Daeet Kalingo Reply with quote

kmaherali wrote:
alinizar313 wrote:
We see some past and
future incident both in Ginans and firmans (see firman # 4,6,8,11,16,18
and 20).


Which frimans are you referring to? Dates and places? I have some firmans in English translations. I would like to refer to them.


These are the firmans from Kalam-e-Imam-e- Mubin Part 1.
Firman # 4,6,8 and11 made at Bombay on Oct 15,1885; May 10,1889; April 01,1893 and April 05,1893 respectively.
Firman #16,18 and 20 made at Manjevadi on Dec 27, 1893; Dec 29, 1893 and Dec 31, 1893 respectively. Just Imagine these firman were made by S.M.S at the age of 9 and 16. These firman comprises of Qissa Kahani, (Stories & incident) are full of wisdom and Batin. The condition is we oueselves have to put the bucket and take out the water from the occean of knowledge by keeping mowla with you.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:32 am    Post subject: Re: Daeet Kalingo Reply with quote

alinizar313 wrote:


These are the firmans from Kalam-e-Imam-e- Mubin Part 1.


Thank you! I will try to access them.
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prince Sadruddin in one of his speeches mentions the harm it does to hold 'end of the world' doomsday views and doctrines:

"Creation is sacred. Life and nature need not be exploited to instill fear in our hearts. For the Hindus, we have entered the Kali Yuga, the dark age, while St. John's Apocalypse evokes the divine judgement for human sins through his vision of the final destruction of the earth. Though there is cause for apocalyptic rhetoric in the chemical and radioactive pollution of soil and water and the depletion of the ozone layer, the problem with cyclical or terminal Apocalypses is that they deeply imprint the mind with negative and destructive behaviour patterns. One is escapism: "God will judge, but we are the faithful who will escape. And really this isn't our home, anyway, since heaven is our kingdom". There is an "us/them" dilemma here, with a judgement on the others. What we need to do is formulate a language that draws people back into community and responsibility. Apocalyptic visions point the other way."(Spirituality & Science, The need for togetherness, Speech by Prince Sadruddin Aga Khan, President of the Bellerive Foundation, Symposium on Trade, Environment and Animal Welfare.
The European Parliament, Brussels, 26-27 September 1996)
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
kmaherali



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 20934

PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

November 14, 2009
Op-Ed Columnist
Once Again, Into the Apocalypse
By GAIL COLLINS
A lot of people are worrying about the world coming to an end in 2012.

Bummer. I thought we’d gotten over all that in 2000.

The question of whether the End of Time will arrive during the holiday shopping season three years hence is already the subject of a veritable library of books. We also have what “The Complete Idiot’s Guide to 2012” claims are almost 600,000 Web sites devoted to worrying about it.

This seems to be the fault of Nostradamus, the Mayan calendar, angst on the left about global warming and angst on the right about the election of Barack Obama. Or the health care bill. Or government bailouts. Or the repositioning of “In God We Trust” on the nation’s coinage.

Really, for ultraconservatives, the last year has been one sign of the apocalypse after the other. Soon, the rivers will run red with Starbucks Raspberry-Flavored Tazo Passion Shaken Iced Tea. Owls will give birth to two-headed frogs who shriek the lyrics to Lady Gaga songs.

Hollywood is unleashing a raft of movies about humanity tottering on the edge of extinction. In “2012,” a G-8 summit convenes to discuss the fact that “the world as we know it will soon come to an end.” Actually, I would not be surprised if the participants found this preferable to another round of the Doha trade talks.

The film characters who are best prepared for the planetary calamity had been consulting the ancient Mayan calendar, which runs through more than five millennia and then comes screeching to a halt on Dec. 21, 2012. Some say that for the Mayans, this was just the end of a cycle, like completing a really long year, and that if they’d been able to hang around for a few more centuries they’d simply have issued a new, post-2012 calendar, this time perhaps including some nice pictures of puppies.

Others see more dire forces at work. In “2012,” the crust of the earth starts bouncing around like Tom DeLay in that cha-cha competition. No one can save us, not the black president or the governor of California with an Austrian accent. Certainly the Europeans can’t help, since not even the collapse of every tall building on the planet can get Americans to pay attention to non-American ideas.

Also coming soon to a theater near you are: “The Road” (Viggo Mortensen struggles across a barren landscape after a mysterious cataclysm) and “The Book of Eli” (Denzel Washington guards a book that could save post-apocalypse humanity from Gary Oldman). Obviously, Hollywood has determined that the reason all those Iraq-war-themed movies failed was that the moviegoers felt the scenery wasn’t bleak enough.

I’ve been disappointed that, so far, almost no one has noticed that St. Malachy’s List of the Last Popes has been running out of gas almost as fast as the Mayan calendar. Malachy was an Irish bishop who died in 1148, after allegedly having seen a vision of the future 112 popes who would reign until the end of the world. By this count, the current Benedict XVI would be 111.

Each of the popes gets a little hint as to his identity. For the most part, Malachy cannily chose to keep them general enough (“angelic shepherd”) that it was hard not to hit a lot of home runs. But good luck in figuring out how Benedict is “glory of the olives.”

Keeping things vague, or subject to multiple interpretations, is the real key to apocalyptic predictions. It’s what made Nostradamus a household name. He’d stare at a bowl of water for hours on end, and then come up with something like:

For the merry maid the bright splendor

Will shine no longer, for long will she be without salt.

With merchants, bullies, wolves odious,

All confusion universal monster.

Which is obviously a foretelling of the Sarah Palin book tour.

My own favorite prognosticator, The Amazing Criswell, always got into trouble with specificity, including his prediction that a black rainbow would circle the earth in 1999 and suck out all the oxygen. He lost a lot of credibility even earlier, after he announced that the United States would move its capital to Wichita and that pressures from outer space would turn Denver into jelly. Really, people tend to remember stuff like that.

I’m predicting that by the time we reach 2011, the 2012 Web sites will hit the million mark, not to mention the Twitters of Terror. But we’ve survived end-of-the-world panic many times before.

When I was a kid, the nuns at my school filled us with stories about prophecies of doom, frequently from Our Lady of Fatima. They always revolved around the Communist menace, and we were occasionally sent home on Friday with assurances that the End was coming by Sunday. We were credulous enough not to question why, in that case, there were homework assignments.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/opinion/14collins.html?_r=1&th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print
Back to top
View users profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    www.ismaili.net Forum Index -> Doctrines All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.1 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group




Fatal error: Call to a member function Execute() on a non-object in /home/heritage/web/webdocs/html/includes/pnSession.php on line 400